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  Discussion on Lost mare within 16 hours - Severe Diarrhea Colitis
Author Message
New Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 2:10 pm:

Hi,
I am just new to Horseadvice, but wanted to ask some questions about Colitis.

I had a 9 year old Arab cross mare. This mare was healthy, up to date vaccines, worming etc. I have 5 horses on my farm, I have a great barn, with new stalls in the past year, they have daily turnout, in stalls at night, feed good hay, clean water, all that can be done for my horses I do.

I live in Ontario, so this winter has been extremely cold, and snow but no different than other years. This mare is used for my kids, so doesn't ever leave the farm and is ridden solely for the enjoyment.

In Feb, I went out to do nightly check at 11:30 pm. All seemed fine, this mare was nibbling on the last of her hay from her night feeding, cleaned out a normal stool from her pen, shut out the lights and went to bed. The next morning I went out and she was standing shaking with severe (fowl smelling, bloody and almost like water) diarrhea. Called the vet immediately, her heart rate was elevated, but her temps were normal. She was not eating but drinking lots. She would lie down with her head flat and legs out straight. But she would then get up, she appeared alert, her gums were pink and her cupilary was good. We tubed her and administered warm water with electorlytes, gave her some antibiotics (forgot the name at present) banamine and rompin. She didn't get worse over the course of the day, but we continually gave her fluids. That evening she started to get worse, shaking more, her breathing got worse and heart rate kept increasing. The vet did what we could, but she died that evening at 10:00. I cannot believe that something can kill a horse that quick.

I sent her away for a autopsy and she tested postitive for C. Perfringens but the diagnosis was Colitis.

8 days later my second mare came down with similar symptoms but this time she didn't have diarrhea..yet. With the first case, my vet suggested BioSponge, but we were unable to get it to the clinic before she died, so this time, we immediately administered BioSponge, and treated her similarly to the first mare. That evening, she broke with diarrhea, but only for a short time before her stool started to get firm again. It took a few days, but she recovered and is back to normal

I believe the BioSponge actually saved the second mare.


I have asked many questions to my vet clinic and the area universities on what causes Colitis, or C. Perfringens and/or bacteria to grow so rapidly. All my horses eat the same thing, are in similar pastures etc.

Since my 2 cases, 5 additional cases have been diagnosed in this area as well, all testing positive for C. Perfringens. They were all treated with BioSponge and all have recovered.

Has anyone else used BioSponge?

Shawna
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 2:38 pm:

Shawna
my condolences on your loss of the mare, thank goodness you could save the other mare. My clinic uses Bio sponge. My three year old Arabian colt came down with a horrible flu and the vet thought from the bloodwork whe should be looking for a possible colitis case, but thankfully he never broke with diarrhea. When my weanling had diarrhea, and all other signs were normal they prescribed Bio sponge to be proactive.
That stuff is amazing. I have some on hand should I ever need it. Take Care
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 3:48 pm:

Lost a 2 yo filly about 10 years ago after she had surgery at WSU. Same thing, bucking playing in the afternoon, ate normally, dieing on her feet next morning. What is bio-sponge. I would like to get some if it works like you say. EO
Member:
Dres

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 3:57 pm:

Ditto above , what is bio sponge..? and what is C. Perfringens ??

Shawna i am sorry for you loss...

Ann
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 5:24 pm:

Biosponge is a clay product that is known as smectite. There have been several studies showing its usefulness as a therapy for clostridial colits but no comparitive studies on sick horses yet. While the research here is promising be sure you do not replace standard therapy, especially electrolytes, with this, see the article for more. Here is a representive sample of the research:

Equine Vet J. 2003 Nov;35(7):638-41.
Evaluation of in vitro properties of di-tri-octahedral smectite on clostridial toxins and growth.
Weese JS, Cote NM, deGannes RV.
Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.

REASONS FOR PERFORMING STUDY: Clostridial colitis and endotoxaemia of intestinal origin are significant causes of morbidity and mortality in horses. Intestinal adsorbents are available for treatment of these conditions; however, little information exists supporting their use. OBJECTIVES: To evaluate the ability of di-tri-octahedral smectite to bind to Clostridium difficile toxins A and B, C. perfringens enterotoxin and endotoxin, inhibit clostridial growth and the actions of metronidazole in vitro. METHODS: Clostridium difficile toxins, C. perfringens enterotoxin and endotoxin were mixed with serial dilutions of di-tri-octahedral smectite, then tested for the presence of clostridial toxins or endotoxin using commercial tests. Serial dilutions of smectite were tested for the ability to inhibit growth of C. perfringens in culture broth, and to interfere with the effect of metronidazole on growth of C. perfringens in culture broth. RESULTS: Clostridium difficile toxins A and B, and C. perfringens enterotoxin were completely bound at dilutions of 1:2 to 1:16. Partial binding of C. difficile toxins occurred at dilutions up to 1:256 while partial binding of C. perfringens enterotoxin occurred up to a dilution of 1:128. Greater than 99% binding of endotoxin occurred with dilutions 1:2 to 1:32. No inhibition of growth of C. difficile or C. perfringens was present at any dilution, and there was no effect on the action of metronidazole. CONCLUSIONS: Di-tri-octahedral smectite possesses the ability to bind C. difficile toxins A and B, C. perfringens enterotoxin and endotoxin in vivo while having no effect on bacterial growth or the action of metronidazole. POTENTIAL RELEVANCE: In vivo studies are required to determine whether di-tri-octahedral smectite might be a useful adjunctive treatment of clostridial colitis and endotoxaemia in horses.

Perhaps even more significant is the work in other species which was summed up at a 2002 AAEP presentation on this subject:

Various topical digestive preparations such as clays have been shown to protect the intestinal mucosa from infectious diarrhea.10 Di-tri-octahedral (DTO) smectite, a natural hydrated aluminomagnesium silicate of lamellar structure, which binds to digestive mucus11,12 and increases resistance to bacterial damage,13 has been shown to increase water and electrolyte absorption in rabbit AAEP PROCEEDINGS  Vol. 48  2002 127 MEDICINE I NOTES intestinal loops in the presence of Escherichia coli infection.11 In experimental studies, DTO smectite has been shown to be effective in the prevention of E. coli in calves and rabbits11,14 Campylobacter jejuni enteritis in mice,13 cholera toxin activity in dogs,10 and rotavirus enteritis in calves,15 as well as affecting the activities of other substances, including bile salts and T-2 mycotoxin in the intestinal tract.16,17 Furthermore, DTO smectite has also been shown to fully restore the barrier properties of human intestinal cell monolayers after exposure to tumor necrosis factor (TNF)- in an in vitro model.18 One of the most valuable properties of DTO smectite is the ability to efficiently absorb substances in the intestinal tract, particularly positively charged organic cations, such as endotoxins, exotoxins, and organic vapors.19 In humans, the use of DTO smectite during rehydration therapy has been shown to shorten the course of acute diarrhea in ambulatory infants and may reduce the occurrence of prolonged diarrhea. 20
(AAEP PROCEEDINGS Vol. 48 2002 127 MEDICINE I NOTES)

For those with questions on what clostridial colitis is see the article associated with this forum. Shawna thank you for bringing your experiences to our attention, your experiences along with the supportive research is enough to add the suggestion to the article on clostridial colitis.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 6:07 pm:

check out platinum performance vitamins and Alamo Pintado clinic, I know they manufacture and sell The bio-sponge, maybe only to veterinarians. I got mine from the vet. :-)
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 8:09 pm:

Shawna,

I am sorry to hear about your loss....I have never heard of bio-sponge; and have only a vague understanding of what your horse suffered from. I will indeed read up on it as I believe a friends horse had something similiar a few years back, and I sure would like to know more about something that can strike so fast and kill just as fast.

My question: Is the smectite something similar to Bentonite Clay?? This is a product I take nightly as a detoxification and intestinal aid.

Angie
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 10:44 am:

Thanks everyone for your condolances. Loosing a horse that quickly is a shock and I didn't know alot about Colitus, C. Perfringens etc until now. I am still stumped as to how she got this. They were suspecting the Hay, as C. Perfringens is a bacteria in the soil, but my hay came back negative so I am still no wiser.

Dr. O, do you have any suggestions as to what causes Colitis or contributing factors to this bacteria?

As for the BioSponge, I got the first dose through my vet, but in talking to other fellow horsemen in the area, I don't believe alot of the vet clinics have it on hand, so I ordered some directly from Platinum Performance. I wanted to be sure I had some on hand in case our vet clinic didn't. It has a shelf life of 2 years. Platinum can ship the product in 24 hours, but as in the case of my one mare, 24 hours was too long. Speaking with one of the Platinum Performance representatives, It also is being used now in foals, they make pre-made syringes for newboarns and I know a few breeders that are using it religiously.

My vet clinic hadn't used BioSponge until my cases, but have used it quite often since. Actually for any diarrhea conditions. In any case with Diarrhea, by the time you get blood results it may be to late. BioSponge may help buy that extra time that it may take to diagnose the potential causes so the appropriate treatment can be administered.


Here is Platinum's web site

https://www.platinumperformance.com
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 10:55 am:

Wanted to mention, I have a 25 year old QH gelding that has chronic diarrhea for a few years, when speaking with Erika from Platinum, they also suggest using biosponge as a daily supplement for chronic diarrhea. In the past 2 weeks I have been adding 4 oz of this into his feed and he has normal stools as of this week.

Platinum actually includes this ingredient in their Platinum Performance Equine supplement.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 11:47 am:

Dr. O is this something you would recommend as a supplement when their is no sign of colitis?

You learn something new everyday on this site
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 2:24 pm:

If you want to ask the folks as well at Platinum about supplementing with this, I found them very helpful. They also have a vet working there who has been doing the testing on this and he is quite willing to speak with your vet regarding any questions you may have.

I did put all of my horses on small doses for 2 weeks following the second horses illness, just for precautionary reasons and the vet at Platinum recommended as well. I did ask them if it would mess up my levels with my feed program, but they assured me it wouldn't.


In followup to what Dr. O said,
I know of a lady who was diagnosed with C. Perfringens after she had recieved a bunch of antibiotics and she was administered BioSponge. I guess it has been around for awhile cause this was a couple of years ago.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 5:50 pm:

The articles on colitis give several known factors that predispose to colitis Shawna.

Joj, no there are no known subclinical effects of clostridial toxins to counteract in otherwise healthy horses. In fact it is easy to conjecture that long term use might lessen the horse's natural immunity to toxins, making them more susceptible to serious disease when infection breaks out. Ultimately this question will have to be settled with research but I would not be burdening my budget for healthy horses this way.
DrO
New Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 8:48 am:

I have a 4 year old gelding the I have been combating looose manure for quite some time he was in the hospital for a week in nov. of this year. He was doing ok for a while his manure was beginning to form. But 5 days ago the diarrhea stared again this time severe. He is being treated with metronidazole and electrolytes in has water. Now he is developing edema do you think this product would help at this stage of the game? His manure is now the consistency of baby food and his appetite is on and off, I am beginning to feel desperation as I do not want to lose him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 6:11 am:

Bonnie was there a diagnosis made of the cause of the diarrhea. Have recent tests of his blood protein levels been run?
DrO
New Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 10:34 am:

Yes he had cultures done and they came back positive. Also his protein and sodium levels were very low. His appetite is not all that good but I understand that that can be a side effect of the medication.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 8:49 am:

Positive for what and what were the protein levels? Has no one diagnosed protein losing enteropathy?
DrO
New Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 10:37 am:

Positive for clostridium, his protein levels were so low the Dr said the machine could not measure them. and yes it has been discussed. Also tucker had biopsy's done of the intestines and the mucosa they were all negative. Also did salmonella cultures which were negative. originally when he was in the hospital he had a lot of parasites bloodworms and ascarids he was wormed many times. He was put on a low carb high fat diet and grass hay. Now he is being switched back to sweet feed and alfalfa grass hay mix. His manure is beginning to firm up some his heart rate was 42 at the last exam but he still had fluidy sounds in his gut.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2006 - 10:44 am:

It sounds like you are doing what I would recommend with the metronidazole and increasing the plane of nutrition. Vitamins and minerals would be logical. There have been occasional reports of metronidazole resistance by clostridia and we give alternative therapies at, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Diarrhea in Horses » Clostridium Colitis.

With the proteins so low, and if they don't believe the protein loosing enteropathy is from chronic irreversible changes, transfusions for replacing the proteins is rational therapy. The hope is that in time the bowel will heal to the point that it does not loose them.
DrO
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 1:26 am:

Shawna,

My condolences for your loss. Any time we lose an animal we all question what we could have done differently. Just know you did everything you could at the time for your loved one.

Sometimes nothing we do can change the out come.

I board at a facility that does not consistently provide quality hay. In their defense there are so many horses on this ranch and it is difficult to always get the best hay all the time.

I did not realize this until recently when my horse had an allergic reaction to the hay.

He had diarrhea for 3 days gradually getting worse. No fever. He was not lame. It was raining and we could not ride. So I wasn't too worried but, by the 3rd day his legs were so swollen I thought he may have lymphangitis.

I called the vet to rule out Lymphangitis with a blood test. It was in fact an allergic reaction to the change in hay quality.

The vet gave me Bio-Sponge recommended for 3-5 days. I only needed in for 2 days and my horse has been fine ever since. The vet said as soon as it stops him up, stop giving it to him.

My vet also told me they use it all the time for babies when they have the squirts. It comes in a oral paste for them.

My vet gave it to me in a powder form and I had to mix it up with water, molasses, o&m, and some senior equine for my horse to eat it as he is finicky.

Bio-Sponge worked for me. I now keep it as a staple in my medicine chest.

God Bless the animals and the people who care for them!

WTG
New Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 8:17 am:

I purchased bio-sponge to give to tucker, but my vet is not familiar with it and he did not want to add or change anything, I really want to give it to him. Would it neg. affect him in anyway if I just go ahead and give it to him anyway? Also is there anything I can give him to increase his appetite? Is there some way to force calories on him? He still is not eating very well and he is losing weight.
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 10:56 am:

Does a person get Bio Sponge through a vet or can you order it yourself? EO
New Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 1:14 pm:

You can order it yourself. If you have a computer connected to the internet just type in bio-sponge and there it will be. Are you having the same problems I am?
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 5:34 am:

Dear Bonnie,

If your horse has diarrhea and your vet recommends Bio-Sponge, I would administer the recommended dose until the poop has good shape. Bio-Sponge for horses is like Immodium AD for humans.

As to the weight issue Dr.O can advise you further.

I use a mixture of Senior Equine, O&M, and alfalfa pellets with a(half cup of molasses-only if encouragement is needed).

I used to have a horse who was off the track. He was under weight. Through time I was able to free feed him trash cans of A&M, along with a lot of extra hay. He would go through two medium size trash cans a week of the A&M.

It took two months before he began to retain the weight as he was a nervous thoroughbred.

I do not recommend free feeding as a general rule but in an isolated case this has worked for my horses in the past.

Good Luck,

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 8:05 am:

WTG, we have been trying to get a hold of you by email since yesterday to respond to your problems. Our emails are not getting through to you, though our email receipts say they are making it to your server. Please start a post on your problems at News & Help » Problems Using The Advisor.
DrO
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 1:42 pm:

WTG,
Thanks for your condolances, it has been close to a year that I lost her, and it still breaks my heart. I wish at the time my mare became sick, I had the bio-sponge handy, but we didn't get it delivered until it was too late. But who knows, it may not have made a difference.

As you, I now have Bio-sponge in my barn. I have a foal arriving in a couple of months, and I will be sure to order the paste. I find the folks at Platinum Performance to be very helpful. I actually talked to the vet there about our case. They were just working on the paste at that time for the babies. They also suggested it for my old gelding for his cronic diarrhea problems. Kept him on it for a bit, and he has had no issues since.

Little King Ranch,
check out www.platinumperformance.com and search for Bio-sponge. You can order it right from them.

Bonnie, I was told by the people at Platinum Performance, that this stuff is all natural and will not hurt if you give it to them. The hard part will be to get it in him. We gave it to my mare via internasal tube. You will need to get the vets assistance with that. All the instructions are on the container.

For my older gelding, who had chronic diarrhea, i gave a couple of scoops in his grain as a maintenance dose.

If your horse seems to be recovering, maybe a maintenance dose of bio-sponge will be enough. In my case, we had to administer it at a large dose twice daily via tube.

I would suggest give platinum performance a call and asking their recomendations. Maybe your vet could speak to them.

Good luck.
Shawna
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 8:53 am:

Shawna, Tucker seems to be getting over the diarrhea, but I think that i will put him on a maintenance dose because loose manure has been and ongoing problem since I got him. He just wasn't sick before and I thought it was stress from being moved to a new place.

He is just so thin now. Did your horse lose a lot of weight along with the diarrhea? And do you have any suggestions for me to put weight back on him with out over doing the grain. It breaks my heart to see him like that. But I don't want to cause him any harm or upset his treatment by giving the wrong thing.
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 4:39 pm:

I have used the bio-sponge in a couple of different situations. First, my mare who had died, we were not able to get the bio-sponge in time, a few days later, a second horse came down with similar issues, but we administered the bio-sponge. She was on this for 4 days, at which time we took her off and she recovered. She didn't loose weight but was only a short illness. I then put the rest of the horses in the barn on a maintenance dose for 2 weeks as a precautionary measure.

For the horse that had chronic diarrhea, yes, he was hard to keep weight on. I only kept him on it for about a month, and then took him off and he has never had diarhhea again. Because he is older, I feed alfalfa hay and 7 pounds senior feed a day.

Maybe a stupid question, but mentioning the loose manure and the weight loss. Have you had his teeth checked. This could definitely impact his weight loss and can cause loose stools as well. Just a thought.

What is he being fed now? Is he being fed any supplements. You mentioned that he doesn't have a good appetite. I would try good quality grass hay, or alfalfa, and a complete horse feed. I feed Tiz Whiz and I love it. I have all my horses on it. I did put my old gelding on the Tiz Whiz Oil as well as the senior feed around October to get his weight up before winter and it worked great.
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 7:53 am:

Tucker is eating 1/2 sweet feed and 1/2 Purina Ultium. I just started him one Weight gain made by durnham. His teeth were checked first thing. I know that he has lost weight from being sick for so long, and his appetite is down the vet says as a result of the medication he is on. He eats his hay fairly well which is a mixture of grass and alfalfa.

I am afraid to give him oil because I don't want to cause him to get diarrhea again. Some one mentioned Tiz Whiz food to me but I can't find it where I live. What about alfalfa cubes in his feed bucket? I also heard about rice bran have you tried that at all?
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 8:04 am:

Dr. Oglesby,

Can you give me any advice about how to get weight back on tucker now that his manure is firming. I ran a second blood chemistry and his protein and sodium levels are still very low. My vet here recommended putting Tucker on Gastroguard. I don't understand the purpose of doing this. He is still on the metronidazole for how much longer I don't know. Do you think maybe his appetite is down from that or should I look for some other reason. And for some reason every week for a few hours he runs a fever of 101-103 and no one seems to know why, This is getting very frustrating and any help would be greatly appreciated.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 8:30 am:

Hello Bonnie,
He has been very sick, so a poor appetite would be expected, the only way to know if it is the meds is to discontinue them for a while and this should only be done under the direction of your veterinarian. We have an article on how to feed difficult keepers or horses that have lost weight, it is at Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. Other than that is you need to search for things the horse finds tasty. Some have found horses like apple cider vinegar, pureed carrots, or apples, etc...it is a matter of trial and error.

Your veterinarian might be worried that he may be loosing serum through ulcerations and that the Gastroquard might help this. Concerning the use of the Biosponge print out my March 17th post above and show it to your vet. It should address is concerns and give him food for thought.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 9:01 am:

Dr. oglesby, do you think that 14 days is long enough on the medication to stop it for a while with out to much of a set back. Is there any advice you can give on supplements to help him gain weight. I will try the things you mentioned.

And thank you for the explanation on the Gastroguard some times my vet is a little sketchy on explanations.
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 9:34 am:

Hi Bonnie,

I haven't tried Rice Bran myself, however, I am just thinking of starting my halter horse on it to fit him for show. I know many people that have used the rice bran with great success.

I believe there are some people on HA that use it, maybe they can comment.

If you can't get Tiz Whiz, what about TDI. I used to feed TDI before, until my distributer quit the business, therefore I switched to Tiz Whiz. I have had great success with both, and actually one of the guys left Tiz Whiz and started up TDI, so they appear to be very similar feeds. I checked their web site and there are a couple of distributers in PA.

I had 2 weanlings I rescued back a couple of years ago, who were so thin that I didn't even want to let them out on pasture in case someone complained, but I put them on TDI 16, which they just loved, and good hay, and you could see the difference within a month. Within 3 months you wouldn't have know they were the same babies.
Reminder, these are complete feeds, so you cannot supplement when feeding either the Tiz Whiz or the TDI.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 10:11 am:

Discontinuing is based on the physical exam findings and lab work. If you are still having bouts of fever I would not think you should discontinue.
DrO
New Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 5:38 pm:

Hi Bonnie,

You might also try beet pulp to help your horse gain weight. I brought an old (25 years old) horse back from death's doorstep with beet pulp. To make a long story short, this horse had a bout of incested larvae, and he colicked real bad. When all was said and done and the vet got rid of the worms and larvae, this horse was skin and bones. I put him on beet pulp, corn oil, and hay cubes. The horse lived another 4 years, and finally died of unrelated causes (his heart gave out).

Beet pulp is high in calories, but will not make a horse hyper, like grain can do. A very good article on beet pulp can be found here: https://www.shady-acres.com/susan/beetpulp.shtml

As far as corn oil, the only time I had a problem with it was when I gave the horse too much too fast. You have to gradually work the dosage up, and I mean like one tablespoon a week. Just take it very slow and most times it won't give them loose stools.

Does your vet give you any recommendations about putting weight back on your horse?

Nicole
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 8:36 am:

Nicole,

My vet just keeps telling me that he has a long road ahead of him, and that is weight is not a priority. I think if he had some weight he would feel better. So I am pretty much the only one who is worrying about it at this point. It just breaks my heart to see him like that.

I just want to be really careful that I don't give him something that will be harmful to an already compromised digestive system.

Before this incident with the colitis he had the same problem with the parasites you mentioned. He spent a week in the hospital and was on a very rigorous worming schedule. He didn't even have time to totally get back from that before he got this. So I am walking on egg shells as far as his diet goes. I am putting him on hay cubes tonight and I will look to see if I can find beet pulp around here and look into trying that. I am grateful for your in put and am seeking any help I can find. Bonnie
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 6:27 pm:

Hi Bonnie,

One comment about beet pulp that I was going to mention in the first post is that I always soak the beet pulp before feeding it. I know the website article I posted says that it doesn't necessarily have to be soaked, but I find the horses eat it better if it has been soaked.

Also, have you done any research or asked your vet about putting him on a vitamin and mineral supplement?

If his protein and sodium levels are low, would a supplement help with this?

Nicole
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 10:37 am:

Nicole,

Tucker is being drenched with salt 4 times a day to help with sodium and chloride levels. He was getting calf manna for protein but has decided he no longer wishes to eat it.

I found beet pulp and alfalfa cubes and will start him on those this weekend.

He is holding his own to this point 3 weeks ago we thought he wasn't going to make it so hopefully when we stop medication this Friday his appetite will pick up. Keep your fingers crossed.
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 8:11 pm:

Hi Bonnie,

I'm definitely keeping my fingers crossed for you. Tucker is very lucky to have such a caring owner as you! Keep up the good work with him, he sounds like a fighter.

I wonder if you can put some molasses in the calf manna and mix it up, to make it more appetizing for him to eat?
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 8:01 am:

Nicole,
Molasses sounds like a good idea. I gave him the alfalfa cubes on Friday He loves them! I feels really good to know that he has something in his feed bucket that I know he will eat, I can worry a little less while I am at work. Going to draw blood this afternoon to see where we are at. I really appreciate your help and advice, especially about the alfalfa cubes and the beet pulp. Thank you again.
Bonnie
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 2:43 pm:

YAY! I'm so glad to hear Tucker likes the alfalfa cubes. That's so good to hear.

I'm glad I was able to help. Keep us updated on his bloodwork and progress.

Thanks,
Nicole
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 24, 2006 - 11:00 am:

Well Nicole And DrO. Tucker finished the metronidazole Saturday morning and the diarrhea is back to day. Starting him on bio sponge right a way but we have to give it to him in a syringe because his appetite is lousy, I am getting so frustrated, I just want my beautiful boy back feeling good and looking good does anyone have any ideas? My Vet said to start him on 25mg of penicillin twice a day. Bonnie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 11:12 am:

Hello Bonnie,
We had a member last year who had the problem that everytime he discontinued the metronidazole the diarrhea would return, we recommended a 30 day course and then wean off slowly and this worked for him. Remember the biosponge is not therapeutic for the infection, just protective of the toxin. Also your feed changes can cause diarrhea also particularly the alfalfa. It is important to stabilize the diet.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 11:57 am:

Hey Bonnie
I've been following your posts, and am pulling for you and Tucker. I've not had any experience with your particular problem , however I was a bit surprised to see a horse who has diarrhea getting alfalfa cubes. I know you are trying to get weight on, but Alfalfa is known for getting the gut moving, I think. So, I would be very careful with the cubes. Maybe a hay mix (perhaps Alfalfa/Timothy or Orchardgrass mix) would help pack the pounds on, without the loose stool effect. And, I wonder about the cubes versus the hay. DrO will know the answer to that. At any rate, I hope things are improving for you and Tucker!
Nancy
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 12:04 pm:

... forgot to say that Beet Pulp has been a real help in keeping weight on some of my horses who are not easy keepers. I always soak it first, even though I have never had a choke experience, I just figure why not send some hydration into the gut along with the calories!
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 1:56 pm:

Nancy, I gave Tucker Alfalfa cubes because he wouldn't eat much else and he is so thin I mean somebody would report me thin, I was really afraid that he would just go down so when he ate the cubes I was happy and gave him more. Maybe not a good idea. I got some beet pulp won't eat it. DrO. You wouldn't go with the penicillin then I think we are concerned about his appetite when he on the metronidazole, he just won't eat. I am getting really scared about his body condition. And what do you think about the alfalfa cubes?
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 5:51 pm:

Bless your heart, Bonnie ... my heart and prayers go out to you. It is a tough problem you are facing. I hope your guy will perk up soon!!! Maybe you can try mixing the wet beet pulp with the Alfalfa cubes. I have even soaked the cubes with the beet pulp, and so the mixture kinda becomes "one". I know how a horse can sort out what he wants to eat from what he does not! Maybe the cubes are not too bad. I know how hard you are trying and it seems like your efforts are unrewarded so far, but keep up the good work. Hopefully things will turn around soon.
Nancy
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 8:56 pm:

Dear Bonnie,

Is the Metronidazole for diarrhea? Or some kind of infection from ulcers? I have never heard of this drug so I wondered what it is for.

In the case of weight gain I have found Satin Finish stabilized rice bran works well. I feed 1/2 small coffee can daily. My horse has never had an eating problem as he is a piglet.

In addition to the Satin Finish, I use O&M(1 small coffee can daily), 2 small coffee cans of alfalfa pellets, 1 can of bermuda pellets, Rapid Response T, 1 TBSP Wheat germ oil daily, Red Cell(1/2 the dosage recommended), Vitamin and mineral supplements, carrots, apples, trail mix bars with nuts(my horse goes crazy for these), Red Licorice and peppermints for treats(my horse will pat me down for these-and find them!)

Is Tucker lame at all? I read through the posts and all I found was the diarrhea problem. I am not suggesting you work him in his present condition. I am just asking to get more info.

I have found when my horse does not get his exercise everything else starts to go hay wire. One example, his hind legs will swell up even though he is in a 24x48 open pipe corral and is able to walk around at will.

My prayers are with you and Tucker. Keep up the great work. Do not give up we are pulling for you both.

Sincerely,

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 7:02 am:

Bonnie I cannot find any good results with straight penicillin for chronic clostridial disease. I would suggest you discuss with your vet oral vancomycin which has been successful in a number of such cases.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 11:15 am:

DrO. Is that medication oral or injectable and how will It affect his appetite. I think that I am just going to admit him to the hospital because I don't feel like I am getting anywhere treating him on the farm . Bonnie
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 11:19 am:

I can't tell every one how much I appreciate the prayers and all the ideas and advice it has been so helpful. And everyone has been so kind. I really love this horse and all I want is for him to be well. I don't know why all I have done seems to have been in vain but if the is a way to help him I will not stop till I find it.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 12:43 pm:

Bonnie,
If you haven't seen any promising changes in Tucker since you started his treatment, then taking him to the hospital may ease your mind . . . at least you will know that his care is being shared by experts who can see him from moment to moment.

Ask your vet if oil would be helpful in Tucker's diet. I don't know if it would adversely effect the absorption of the oral medication he is taking. Oil is a great way to put weight on a horse. When I have had horses that needed hay/alfalfa cubes for weight gain (because their teeth couldn't grind hay or grass) I often added oil to the warm water I used to soak the cubes.

Watch your Calcium/Phosphorus levels if feeding Beet Pulp. Ask your vet about a good way to balance the levels when feeding Beet Pulp. I used to mix wheat bran with the beet pulp at the times I fed it. There is an article here on HA about the importance of the CA/PH levels, yet I admit that I have a mental block when it comes to the chemistry . . . Just tell me the ratios to feed and I'll be fine.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 7:54 am:

Vancomycin can be given orally. It is hard to predict the effect on palatability or appetite but I have not seen any problems reported and do know this problem is often reported with metronidazole, even in humans.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 11:12 am:

To everyone who has been helping me With Tucker I gave a small ray of good news. He seems to be responding to the penicillin bio sponge combination. The doctor Is going to the barn to see him tonight. So in ten days when we take him off the medication we will see keep your finger crossed. Bonnie
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 4:46 pm:

Good news Bonnie. I hope Tucker is on his road to a complete recovery. What about keeping him on the maintenance dose of biosponge even after the penicillin ends?
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 11:06 pm:

Bonnie, since you are in PA, have you heard of this research?
Reprint from Equine Science Update E-News:
"Yeast treatment for diarrhoea.

Investigators at the University of Pennsylvania have been looking at the effect of a yeast (Saccharomyces boulardii) in horses with acute diarrhoea. All horses received the standard anti-diarrheal treatment. In addition, half of them were given 25 grams of Saccharomyces boulardii mixed in molasses. The other seven were given just molasses.
The researchers found that the watery diarrhea cleared up more quickly, and the gastro-intestinal disease did not last as long, in horses treated with S. boulardii. The findings suggest that combining Saccharomyces boulardii with conventional treatment for diarrhoea may be more effective than the conventional treatment on its own. It may help reduce the severity and duration of diarrhoea in horses with acute enterocolitis."
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 9:34 am:

That is great news Bonnie.

Holly, we have more on the use of S. boulardii in the treatment of clostridiosis in the article associated with this forum. I had referred Bonnie to it in the first post above but have not seen where she has thought about using it, maybe this will tickle her into reconsidering it. It should be noted that there have been problems with its use however, see the article for more.
DrO
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 12:19 pm:

Good for you, Dr. O. . . . for keeping us so up-to-date. I received the Equine Science Update E-News just yesterday, and hadn't read the HA forum article, so didn't know how recent the yeast research was. Maybe Bonnie's vets are all ready familiar with the research considering their Pennsylvania location, but I hadn't seen it mentioned in her posts, so thought it might be a solution to her horse's illness.
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Monday, Jan 30, 2006 - 7:32 am:

DrO. I am sorry but I don't remember this article. Just to keep you all up to date - both days I went to see tucker this weekend he was eating everything in sight and just seems as if he feels better. I pray that when the penicillin stops that he will not relapse. I just keep looking forward to better days. If you all could meet him you would know why I have put up such a fight for him as I am sure any of you would do for you own. DrO. What would be the next step if he goes backwards after the treatment with penicillin is stopped. And yes I plan on using the bio-sponge if that would be best for him and if he will eat it right now he is getting it in a syringe twice a day. Platinum performance has a maintenance produce that contains bio-sponge and the people there said it is excellent for recuperating horses, it contains Omega 3's. I don't know sometimes I just feel so over whelmed with all the information. DrO. Can you recommend a maintenance supplement for him once I get him headed in the right direction? Oh and he won't eat beet pulp. Ever since he got sick he is real funny about stuff being added to his food so it would have to be something really tasty. Thanks again to all of you and God bless. I'll keep in touch and I look at this sight everyday. I really enjoy conversing with "Horse" people. Bonnie
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Monday, Jan 30, 2006 - 7:36 am:

Oh - DrO. I forgot to mention I talked with my vet about the medication you mentioned and he was familiar with it only as a human drug, not to treat tuckers problem and he said it was very expensive. Bonnie.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 8:38 am:

Bonnie have you not read the article associated with this forum? You should, along with the associated article with it on clostridial colitis. You get to it by clicking on "Initial Evaluation of Colitis in Horses" at the top of this page. There are links in it to the other articles.

Yes the vancomycin is expensive but is used in a number of veterinary hospitals for metronidazole resistant clostridia in horses.

If you are getting a very good response to the penicillin, I would not stop after 10 days treatment. Are pages are full of folks who relapse after 10 days of treatment in what is probably chronic clostridial diarrhea. Consider carrying it out 20 days then slowly weaning off of it over the next 10 days. Many of us feel that the relapse is caused by the lack of gut flora caused by the antibiotic, by weaning off over a 10 day period you allow your horses flora to return to normal, while slowing down what you hope is the most sensitive clostridia. There are no particular nutritional supplements that I would add to the diet, other than what you need to maintain good nutrition, see Care for Horses » Nutrition » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses. Using the guidelines in that article your horse probably needs vitamin supplementation so don't overlook that. However the article may have many other important points for you so study the whole thing.

I would not make changes to his diet as he comes off the antibiotics however and after that changes should be made very slowly.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 9:40 am:

Where do I get this yeast and how do I give it to him, does it do the same as the yeast in bio-sponge?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 9:05 am:

The last I looked Bio-Sponge just contained clays, if you will list the ingredients on the package I will review it.

Currently I do not know of any horse product that contains live S. boulardii. You should try health food stores or Google. For more on using it see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Probiotics and Yeast Culture Products.
DrO
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 3:01 pm:

Hi Bonnie,

How is Tucker doing?

Thanks,
Nicole
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 3:37 pm:

Hey nicole,

He is doing better he is off his medication completely now. His manure is not like it should be but we are 4 days without going backwards. I am starting him on yeast in his diet it is supposed to help with conditions like his. So keep your fingers crossed the vet says if we can make 7 days then he will say we have made progress.
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 3:05 pm:

nicole i forgot to say thanks for thinking of us.
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 3:07 pm:

DrO. Are there any recommendations you can give to maybe boost tucker's immune system. I found and purchased the yeast for him he will be starting that this weekend. If he truly is getting better i want to start looking at prevention. bonnie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 10:46 am:

Nothing besides good nutrition and a stress free environment. I don't have much faith in the non-specific immune boosters and what you really need is to allow the gut flora to normalize.
DrO
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 3:14 am:

Dear Bonnie,

If your horse is doing better in th last 4 days what meds has he been on? Has he been on the Biosponge as well?

Recently I have seen Biosponge clear up 5 other horses(varying in ages) diarrhea with no further problems to the horses.

But it seems poor Tucker has been through a lot and for awhile. It may take a little longer to resolve his problem.

If he has been on Biosponge I would stick with it at the recommended dosage until his poop is well formed. As soon as this happens stop the Biosponge.

My vet told me it can also have the opposite effect and could stop him up way too much, tye them up or even colic in some horses.

Whatever you decide to do, just know that since he has been eating well the last 4 days this is great news. Additionally, it sounds like you and Tucker are headed in the right direction.

So stay on the path of least resistance. If something is working stick with it and do not change anything unless a vet says otherwise.

I agree with Dr.O on proper nutrition and a stress free environment essential for all living beings.

Just as an example my horse was anemic in October 2005. His hemocrit level was 25.2

Two months later in Dec 2005 it was 24.

Now in Feb 2006 he is up to a hemocrit level of 32.

I incorporated alfalfa hay and pellets into his diet along with Red Cell, Focus SR, Redmonds salt which also has a small amount of iron(as he will not touch salt licks)and doubled up on Vita Plus a vitamin and mineral supplement.

This helped a little with his energy level but when I added alfalfa cubes to his diet his hemocrit has solidly stayed at 32.

I have not heard of live S. Boulardii does your vet think adding this will help or is it in place of the Biosponge?

Good luck!

God bless the animals and the people who care for them!!!

WTG
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 5:58 am:

Dear Bonnie,

What is Tuckers fever? Somehow I missed that.



WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 7:19 am:

The problem with your assessment WTG is that recently I have seen at least 5 horses with diarrhea and with no fever, pathogens isolated in the stool, or other sign of disease, we decided to shore up management a little bit and they all got better without Biosponge. I think research shows a specific use for this product as outlined in our discussion above but I am uncertain that as a general treatment for all undiagnosed diarrheas is indicated.
DrO
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 1:27 am:

Dr.O,

What do you mean by shore up management a little bit?

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 10:33 am:

It means to review feeding, deworming practices and make changes as you find potential problems.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 10:39 am:

DrO. Hi it's Bonnie again. I don't know if you remember Tucker or not we were treating him for clostridium colitis. Well after 4 months I think the second round of penicillin finally did the trick. He is eating great for about 3 1/2 weeks now and the edema is almost gone, he is still swollen in his sheath. How long does that take to go away? When should I be concerned that it hasn't? My question is Now that he is eating again. What should he be eating? He still has loose manure. He is eating sweet feed which I know is not the best but was the only thing he would eat. I am adding yeast to his food daily and he is eating a mixture of grass and alfalfa hay, that is what the stable provides to him. I am beginning to think that he has damage to he intestines somewhere. But I am convinced that there has to be a proper way to feed him so that he is able to adsorb nutrients and gain back his weight. He lost a lot while he was sick. Yesterday he has a fever of 102 and didn't want to eat his breakfast but by dinner he was eating fine. I just want him to feel good and be healthy I realize that I is going to be a long road getting him back but he is alive and I am so happy about that. So any advice on diet or further tests or what have you to slow things down if that is even what needs to be done or help him adsorb things better I will be very grateful.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 7:15 am:

How is the blood work looking Bonnie particularly the albumin and total proteins as these are largely responsible for keeping edema from forming. Concerning the feeding practices we have a step by step article on feeding difficult keepers at Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 8:34 pm:

About the swollen sheath, I am not sure from the post when this developed, but want to convey that when a horse of mine was on penicillin for 2 - 3 weeks due to a stab-type wound in the shoulder that went all the way to the bone, toward the end of the antibiotic he developed a very swollen sheath. I was never sure why, but suspected it was because of the penicillin. The swelling gradually subsided without treatment except for some cold water hosing, which may have done no more than to make him feel more comfortable.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Saturday, Mar 18, 2006 - 10:30 am:

Hey Bonnie
You are probably already aware of this, with all that you and Tucker have been thru, but sometimes lack of "exercise" can cause or keep a swollen sheath. The reason I put exercise in quotation marks is because I'm sure that Tucker is not ready for a lot of forced exercise, but if he has remained stalled or has not been walking around enough , then the swelling could become worse, or at least, be slow in subsiding. Just some long walks on a lead line,several times a day might help. Like I say, you are probably way ahead on this, but I thought I'd mention this, just in case.
So very glad that Tucker is doing better after this very long ordeal!
Nancy
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 8:30 am:

Nancy, He was stalled for a long time but he has been being turned out in the indoor area for a couple of weeks now. It is too cold for him to be outside. And that has really helped with the swelling everywhere. The swelling in his sheath was much worse I just wondered how long was too long for it to still be swollen. I board him so the walks several times a day are difficult, I would do a lot of things different if I had him at my house.

DrO. If tucker has damage to his intestines that is not repairable is there a certain way to feed him. Can a horse have loose manure and that is just the way it is? I have not made any changes in his diet since he started eating better and that has been about a month now, so I think I can consider trying small changes to determine if it will help. He won't eat beet pulp. Do horses need a lot of fiber to keep them regular. I just don't know what a good balance is. And how long does it take horse to put back on weight after they lose it?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 8:11 am:

Horses with damage need very high quality feeds that are easily digested and absorbed and yes fiber is important for the normal function of the bowel. There is no hard answer to how fast weight returns because there are so many variables.

The article Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss addresses how to approach putting weight back on a thin horse and makes specific recommendations for high quality feedstuffs. It has a link to the article on Malabsorption SynDrOmes in horses which I think can better address the needs of horses with damaged bowel. I have not updated that article in the last year and will put that on my list to complete this week so look for an update, particularly expanded feeding recommendations, to that article.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 9:23 am:

DrO. I must be me because I just printed out the articles on Malabsorbtion and I do not see any feeding recommendation for damaged bowel. Just and explanation of what it is but not how to help. I need nutritional information and it there is any medication to help him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 6:29 pm:

You will find specific feeding information in the specific article I recommend above. It is presented in a step wise manner of approaching the thin horse. There are some general recommendations in the Malabsorption Article for feeding and some treatment recommendation. If there is a specific cause you go after that otherwise the recommendations in the article are about the best you can do. I will try to get the information in the malabsorption article expanded this week but my research may turn up no better feeding ideas than that which is in the Chronic Weight Loss article and no better therapy options than what is currently in the Malabsorption Article. This is not a problem that has a good prognosis nor are we sure this is the problem in your horse, he may still be recovering from the colitis. We hope so.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 12:02 pm:

DrO. I understand that water content in the manure means that he is secreting water into the bowel due to inflammation. What would be a safe dose of dexamethasone to try as not the suppress Tucker's immune system to the point of causing additional illness. Bonnie.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2006 - 8:03 am:

Not necessarily Bonnie there are several causes of diarrhea, check our overview of diarrhea for the different mechanisms of diarrhea. There would be no known "safe dose" Bonnie, all medications run risks. If I were treating a non-infectious inflammatory bowel disease I would consider dexamethasone and for dosage ranges see, Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Overview of the Steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2006 - 12:03 pm:

Ok, I know that all drug have risks. I was looking for a dose that would help with inflammation but not suppress his immune system and run the risk of additional infections.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2006 - 1:20 pm:

Not that I am aware of. NSAID drugs have not been effective in these situations and have other deletarious effects on the bowel.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 8:53 am:

So how do I treat the inflammation? The infection is under control. His appetite is normal, no fever and he is acting himself, his energy is back, he is drinking normal. No parasites and I wormed him for March, April and May with ivermectin. I have been giving him the yeast that you and mentioned to me in an earlier post But he still has loose manure, that is why I was thinking maybe inflammation. So if it is that how do I treat that if I don't use dex? I there a more natural or less harmful way to treat it? I don't want to be redundant but I am really searching for answers.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 3:16 pm:

You are not being redundant Bonnie it is the way you are looking at the problem. The inflammation that causes the problem IS part of the immune system you cannot really separate them out. To suppress this inflammation also means to suppress the immune system. However, with the antiinflammatory doses the suppression may not be enough to relight the infection. It is the risk you take going down this road.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 5, 2006 - 8:53 am:

Ok so I have to decide if the risk is worth the benefit isn't that always the case. So if I don't treat the inflammation, maybe he will continue with the loose manure. So which is worse the inflammation or the loose manure? Is one more dangerous to leave untreated. But It sounds as if they are one in the same right? I am really afraid of him getting sick again that probably would kill him. So what do I do? when we treat dogs in our vet clinc where I work that have inflammatory skin disease we give a Dex Sp injection then treat with Pred. every other day could doseing him like that be of any benefit at all? I just want to use the least amt needed to try and reduce the inflammation to the point of normal manure and wt. gain. I am going to start switching over to purina ulitium or senior feed at the end of the month. I have been afraid to switch his food so far for fear he would no eat. Anyway something has got to help right?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 6:39 am:

If we knew that non-infectious inflammation was going on Bonnie it would be no problem, the horse should be treated for it. But just because you have loose manure does not mean there is inflammation. These are decisions for your veterinarian to make Bonnie, based on the history, his exam, and best judgement.
DrO
Member:
Djws

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 2:06 pm:

Bonnie-
You and Tucker are now in my prayers.

Shawna-
My condolences. I know it doesn't ease your pain but, you have probably helped many others through your loss. My heart goes out to you.

Dr. O-
Would you suggest that all horse owners keep Bio-Sponge on hand? I am a new owner...is there somewhere on the site that will guide me to other items that I should have for emergencies? I bought a small equipped medical kit from Jeffers and I do have Bute tablets and Banamine paste (my horse has had Laminitis before(I was told it was a good idea to have these two drugs at my disposal). I want to be as prepared as I need to be-the nearest large animal vet is 2 hours away. (I would always contact a vet before doing anything) Thank you and, I want you to know that this site is the most informative I have found. I think it is wonderful that strangers are so quick to help and share ideas and experiences. I can't find anyone living nearby to share with...now, I don't feel so alone!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2006 - 8:45 am:

No very few horse owners are ever going to need the Bio-Sponge DJ and though Shawna feels it saved her horse above this is uncertain and knowing the pathogenesis and variable disease course it is unlikely with such a peracute case as she describes above.

However I would suggest you mention this to your vet and suggest that they keep it in stock and if you needed it and it was unavailable have the company overnight it to you. I also wonder if similar products might not be available over the counter as one member describes above. For our recommendations on a home first aid kit see, Equine Diseases » First Aid » First Aid Kit.
DrO
Member:
Djws

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 4:15 pm:

Thanks, Dr. O!
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 8:37 am:

Well I have moved Tucker to a new boarding facility. They are much cleaner there. His stall is kept clean and free of urine, his food and water buckets are washed daily instead of when ever I could get there to do it. He has actual pasture that the owners do not spread manure on. We are in the process of changing his feed getting him off the sweet feed completely and putting him on strategy, he seems to like the large pellets, and he is starting to eat the beet pulp. I don't know if any of this will make a difference in him but I am anxious to find out. He is holding his own still and beginning to gain some weight. And he is close enough to me now that I can go and see him every day after work for some TLC. I'll keep everyone posted and thank you to every one for your help and prayers. Bonnie
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 11:27 am:

This sounds like a great place for Tucker!
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 2:26 pm:

I know I can't wait to see if all the things I have been complaining about to the owners of the previous stable really make a difference for him and he seems to love it there already.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 12, 2006 - 7:59 am:

It will make a difference Bonnie and I know I feel better already just reading the about the improved management.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 8:59 am:

DrO. I can't thank you enough for all your help. Last night I went to see Tucker and he had some swelling in his face. I could tell it was fluid. I started right behind his mouth and stopped right behind his jowls. Do you think this could be caused by a weakened immune system? Is there something I can do about that? His care taker is going to call this morning if it is still swollen today. It is very odd for something to just happen like that isn't it? He had no fever and he is eating and acting fine. How long after you change a diet do you wait to add or change something else if you are not getting desired results? Tucker's manure seems to have firmed some to the consistency of wet sawdust he is not eating the beet pulp real well yet but I am getting there. I figure eventually he will just say, I guess she is going to keep giving me this I may as well eat it, any suggestions to entice him? I am glad to hear that someone agrees with me about the poor management he was getting before and he was to far away for me to be there daily. Now he is only 8 miles from my house and I go everyday. I think just the attention I give him is making him feel better. Anyway Thank you again. Bonnie
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 9:06 am:

Bonnie
I just want you to know that I'm still following your posts, and am pulling for you and Tucker ...WHAT A LUCKY GUY, TUCKER IS TO HAVE YOU!
Hang in there. I know it's tough.
Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 8:09 am:

Hmmm no not his weakened immune system Bonnie but he may be coming into contact with disease organisms to which his immune system is reacting. Also possible is his low blood proteins are not holding fluid in the vessels as well and if he is out grazing all day, the head down position causes fluid to leak into the tissues of the head. Either of these will probably self correct but if it continues to worsen you may need to get a vet out to get a diagnosis and see if it is something that needs addressing.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 9:33 am:

DrO. Do you think lysine would help?

Bonnie
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Friday, Apr 21, 2006 - 7:49 am:

Hey everyone just posting an update on Tucker. I moved him almost 2 weeks ago and changed his diet. The barn he is in is much cleaner, with better lighting and ventilation. He is doing awesome, he is eating well including the beet pulp. And I believe that I can already see good weight gain. I had no idea that I would see such a difference so soon. I am so happy, I even think he looks happier!!!!!!!!!!! DrO. The swelling in his face went down on it's own, it has occurred a second time but was much less severe so I am keeping my fingers crossed that all these little things will clear themselves up like you said. Any thing you can recommend to put on bare spots on his hip bones from rub sores I got the sores healed after I moved him but now he has bare spots and I am hoping the hair will grow back. Thanks again to everyone for all your help and advice this site is awesome. Bonnie
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Saturday, Apr 22, 2006 - 8:31 pm:

How nice to turn on the computer and see such nice news. Give Tucker my best!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 23, 2006 - 10:33 am:

Oppps....I missed the lysine question: it would only help if it is deficient in his diet Bonnie. Which is unlikely unless fed unimproved grains and a low protein diet. If the wounds are clean and dry I would leave them alone and unless prolonged open sores occurred the hair will be back.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Monday, Apr 24, 2006 - 10:20 am:

would it be harmful to him if I tried th lysine to see if it helped his immune system? Besides the rub marks he also has areas where the his hair just looks like it fell out, I know that hair is protein so would his illness have affected his hair coat? And if so is there anything I can do? Now that I am able to see and groom him every day I notice all these little changes, or am I just being paranoid? And to Lee thank you so much I can't tell you how happy I am to watch him improve and gain weight and he looks so happy. Bonnie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 7:43 am:

It there is an actual deficiency in lysine Bonnie, there may be other amino acids that are deficient. Better is to up the total protein. Lysine fed in excess will not be beneficial. All horses are loosing hair right now in the Northern Hemisphere so this is not abnormal and the summer coat will follow shortly.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 11:04 am:

I drew blood on him last night to see where we are at. We are going to start feeding him 4 times a day to get more calories in to him, what is the best Way to up his protein? Ok so about the hair see I told you I was being paranoid.
Member:
Djws

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 3:53 pm:

Bonnie-
There is no doubt in my mind that Tucker is happier. Actually, I feel you both will be happier and more content seeing each other everyday. Certainly there is a special bonding between horse and owner. I wish you both the best and will look forward to your progress reports.
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 26, 2006 - 8:36 am:

DrO. I received Tuckers blood results
Glucose 103 , Urea Nitrogen 11, Creatinine 1.3, Total Protein 3.7, Albumin 1.2, Total Bilirubin 0.3, Alk. Phos 128, AST (SGOT) 122, Cholesterol 61, Calcium 9.4, Phosphorus 2.7, Sodium 130, potassium 4.9, Chloride 98, Globulin 2.5, CPK 135, GGTP 6 - It looks to me as if his electrolytes are low, But the numbers are better then when we started, Maybe I should still be giving him electrolytes? I am going forward and I want to keep it that way. Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated, I will also be faxing a copy of the results to his Doctor Thank you, Bonnie.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 27, 2006 - 8:02 am:

I am not as worried much about the electrolytes (what are your labs normals for all these values?) as I am the low protein including albumin. Are they improving also?
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, Apr 27, 2006 - 9:01 am:

Albumin Started @ 0.9 in January and is now 1.2 normal is 2.3-3.8. Total protein normal is 5.4-7.8 - Sodium normal is 132-146 Potassium normal is 2.4-4.7 why is potassium high? He had some swelling in his jowls and throat again last night. he is eating and acting good.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 28, 2006 - 7:20 am:

I am not concerned about the mild elevation in potassium Bonnie, slight elevations for unknown reasons are common. The gradual improvement in albumin is encouraging but the swelling bears watching, see above.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Friday, Apr 28, 2006 - 8:42 am:

See above??? Should I try electrolytes? He gets this swelling then I goes away usually over night while he is stalled. Can I give something to help increase his protein or is time going to be the best thing for him? His manure is still like the consistency of wet sawdust. Maybe that will just be him? Is strategy a good food for him?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2006 - 10:07 am:

Yes see above: there is a discussion on this head swelling and it's likely cause.

Bonnie, why would you supplement electrolytes, above the trace mineral salts that should be available? Your electrolytes are in the near normal range and mild variations from normal are not indications for force feeding more. Concerning your specific questions he needs to be on a overall good diet of high quality feedstuffs. There are hundreds of possibilities of how this might be done and what works best for you in your specific area is best figured out by you. The way to do this is by learning the principles of good nutrition as outlined in the Overview of Nutrition and applying it to the foodstuffs available.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:37 am:

Because that is what we did before when those same #'s were low so I guess I just assumed. I have read the overview of nutrition many times and I am feeding him a nice green grassy hay, he has a trace mineral block and also free choice loose salt because of his low sodium the vet recommend that. Always has fresh clean water to drink. The only supplements he is being given is the yeast, baking soda and the weight gain powder which is 99% fat. So I guess I am on the right track then, The only thing I wish I could figure out is the loose manure. Maybe he needs increased fiber? I don't know how long should I wait before I try something else as in a change of feed.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 6:32 pm:

Until the horse gets back to a normal protein, it is not a primary concern unless determined to be of an inflammatory nature. As long as the horse becomes healthy overall never should be an excuse to upset the sensitive balance. That said a slow addition of beet pulp with bran will not hurt. See the article on forage for how we recommend doing that.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 7:04 am:

DrO. I have already been introducing beet pulp over the last 3 weeks. At first he would not eat it than I discovered that if I soak it in warm water and give it to him right away he likes it. he is up to 1 - 1 1/2 pound scoop twice a day. in the afternoon he just gets his pellets and pasture. I am going to give him a total of 45 days on the current diet before I make any changes, I think that I would like to feed him purina ultium. it is higher in fat and has 18% fiber and lower starch than the food he is on now, but I feel that I need to give it a fair chance before I change. I can't tell you how much I have appreciated your past and continued help, this has been the only place that I could get real straight forward answer and help that I feel has made a real difference in tucker's health and his over all well being, thank you for being there for us. I anyone out there feeding Ultium, I would appreciate any feed back on it. likes dislikes etc. Bonnie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 10:54 pm:

Thanks for the kudos. Have you also balanced the Ca / Phos and boosted the protein with bran as suggested in the article referenced above?
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 8:03 am:

DrO. Call me computer illiterate but I can never find the articles you reference. Are the in the regular discussions and I just have to find them or am I missing something?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 10:06 pm:

The above reference to the article reads: Care for Horses » Nutrition » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses. So the first step in the reference is Care for Horses. You will see this on the navigation frame to your left. When you put your cursor over the words, a new list of menus unfolds and on it you will find the next step Nutrition. When you put your cursor on it no further menu unfolds so single click it and the menu that contains all the Nutrition articles will open in this frame. On the list you will find the last step, the article Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses. Click it and the article opens in this frame. Using this method takes you about 6 seconds to get from here all the way to the article page.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 7:47 am:

I read that article, Should I use rice bran or what? That is why I was asking about the Ultium feed made by Purina. It is made with beet pulp, wheat Middlings, stabilized rice bran, ground soybean hulls and alfalfa meal those are the first 5 ingredients Protein is 11.7%, Fat is 12.4% , Fiber is 18.5% Calcium 0.90%min 1.20% max, phosphorus 0.500%. would that save me trying to balance things myself you can look at information on it as www.ultium.com. Also I wanted to ask, someone told me if I give MSM as an anti- inflammatory it would help in the intestine if he has inflammation there. Is there any truth to that? Bonnie
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 7:48 am:

Oh, and thanks for the navigation instructions lol...........bonnie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 11:06 pm:

The Ultium appears to be already balanced so it could be used.
DrO
Member:
Bonnie64

Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 8:38 am:

Hey everyone I am just posting an update on Tucker. I just about have him switched to his new food he seems to like it so far, I am going to give this several months to see if it will change his manure from loose to normal or something close to it. He is eating well active and gaining weight!!!!!!!!! DrO - if I feed him the ultium should I still give him the beet pulp?
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 9:53 am:

Excellent news Bonnie. It sounds like things are getting much better for Tucker. It has been a long struggle for you guys. Good work - keep us posted!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 6:59 am:

If he is doing well right now why change what you are doing? This is not a rhetorical question: can you think of a reason to change? Be sure to study all the relevant articles before you answer.
DrO
New Member:
peg329

Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2008 - 7:09 pm:

Hi Bonnie...

It's been a year, and I've JUST read all this and am wondering how Tucker's doing!?

Google Juliet Getty for ANY advice on nutrition for horses! She's great! I have Ration Plus that I add to the feed to minimize the risk of colic and add the proper gut probiotics. It's helped rescued horses gain weight in proper manner, without colic.

She also has Quiessence,Glantzen 3, and numerous other products you'll find helpful with FREE SHIPPING}!
New Member:
lbbrown

Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 - 8:17 am:

Hi
We rescued a 23yr old QH we have had her now for 2 1/2 months and she had diarrhea when we picked her up we have wormed her very well and our vet has checked her and no parasites where found she has a good appitite she is on senior feed and good grass hay but still has projectile diarrhea she does not appear to be in pain we gave her pro-bios and it did not help she appears to be happy in her new home as our to daughters give her all the loving she can handle
our vet says as long as she is eating she would be ok but when we rescued her she was under weight by about 200lbs can anyone help with some suggestions as what to do for her? we just want to give her a better quilty of life then just blowing it out her rear for the rest of her life

Thanks
Larry
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 - 9:53 am:

Welcome Larry,
Let me help by pointing you to an article that covers your specific situation, Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview. It will take you through the diagnostic steps you should follow and give you many ideas on treatment and management considerations in the horse with undiagnosed diarrhea. If you still have questions post them in that forum by starting a new discussion. You will find the button for this at the bottom of the articles page under the list of titles to others discussions.
DrO
PS, Larry by starting a new discussion rather than posting at the bottom of someone else's discussion you will get quicker and more responses. For more on this see Help & Information on Using This Site » Welcome to The Horseman's Advisor.
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