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Discussion on Purchase of a Horse with Sarcoid History?
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New Member:
Royd
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 12:24 pm:
We are considering the purchase of a 15 yr old mare that presented with a verrucose (warty) sarcoid about a year ago under her right eye. It was treated with a brown colored topical (Factor X? - owner not sure of the name) and the sarcoid disappeared and has not returned a year later.
We have read Dr O's paper on sarcoids and we also reviewed the information on sarcoids at:
https://pcwww.liv.ac.uk/sarcoid/facts.htm
What we are missing to make an informed decision about the purchase of this otherwise very nice mare is the probability for sarcoid recurrence at the previous site and at other sites in the years ahead.
Any assistance you can provide will be most appreciated.
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 1:33 pm:
I recently sold a gray mare that had a very small sarcoid about 1 to 2 inches below her eye and treated her with the same type stuff, called x-terra and it works like magic. Sarcoids are not that serious and it wouldnt stop me from buying a mare with one, which can be treated very easily. I informed the buyers of this really well bred gd of Peppy San Badger about the sarcoid and the treatment and they had no problem with it. Sarcoids can affect any color horse. I sold this mare in foal to my senior stallion, the last breeding son of Cutter Bill, because I have too many mares and foals coming in 2005, it had nothing to do with trying to dump her on someone. She is a real nice mare that has good quality foals. I wouldnt hesitate to buy another mare for my breeding program at some point that had or had had a small sarcoid. The x-terra got rid of the sarcoid very easily, but I also didnt wait until it had gotten much bigger than a large misquito bite. The main thing is to recognize it for what it is and get it taken care of asap. My vet told me about a stallion she treated that had dozens of sarcoids all over his body. She put the exterra on three of the larger sarcoids for the time period reccommended by the manufacturer and when she went back to see the results a couple of months later, the was not a single sarcoid on that horse anymore. She said a horse with multiple sarcoids needs to have at least three of them covered with xterra per instructions, and it will also remove the rest of them, without them being coated. Surgery usually doesnt get all the 'fingers' of the sarcoid and can actually cause them to spread. The xterra goes into the skin and finds all the sarcoid cells and stimulates the immune system to destroy them. chris www.canyonrimranch.net
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 3:07 pm:
I had a horse with a sarcoid on his face 12 years ago. Once I got it cleared up he never got another one. Another horse of mine got one many years ago that was surgically removed and biopsied (before removing it they were afraid it was an early melanoma) and found to have been an unusual type of sarcoid for our area and that it was caused by an insect bite. He has never gotten another either. I believe there is some thought that horses in close proximity to cattle are more likely to get sarcoids, but don't know whether that has been proven or is just theory. Anyway, I wouldn't avoid buying a horse with a sarcoid or history of sarcoid.
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Member:
Sparky
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 3:18 pm:
"sarcoids are not that serious" I beg to differ with this statement and am really happy that your situations have been positive experiences. Roy you may want to go the the yahoo group equine_sarcoid and read some of the discussions posted there. It seems that each horse is different and there can be some extremely high cost involved with a sarcoid. My geldings pictures are under the photo section of the yahoo group under "Sparky"
Make sure you are as educated about this issue as you can be and understand that if you are going to resell this horse it may be an issue.
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Member:
Sparky
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 3:37 pm:
https://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/equine_sarcoid/
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 11:43 pm:
The prognosis only improves slightly as time goes by so use the table in the article, matching the type sarcoid you have with the type treatment used. The Xxtera mentioned above is a brown creme but there are many brown cremes. Double check the treatment used.
DrO
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Member:
Royd
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 9:04 am:
Thanks everyone for the helpful info. Since my first post, we have discussed the treatment with the owners vet. The brown goo was indeed xxterra. It was applied by the owner for three days and the verrucose sarcoid was essentially gone in a few weeks and by 12 weeks all that was left was a scar. Now, ~1 year later, the scar is filling in and if the owner had not reveled the sarcoid history I don't think we would have ever known about it.
After speaking with the owner's vet and consulting with ours, the owner has agreed to pay for any sarcoid treatements over the next five years so I think we are going to purchase the mare. Of course we will have a complete pre-purchase exam by our vet.
Dr. O, I checked the table again and it looks like about a 60% chance of success at initial treatment. However, we are now over a year away from treatment with no recurrence which is certainly good news.
Still wondering if we are taking on too much risk. Again, if anyone has any info wrt the chance of recurrence both at the original site and at other sites in the years ahead please pass it along.
Thanks again for the useful information.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 10:15 am:
I was hesitant to post since my case is very rare, however, you asked...
I bought my guy with a sarcoid about the size and width of a thumbnail. I had two vets look at it and they both said it looked normal and it should be fine, if it starts to bother him or you just have it taken off.
It started to bleed about 3 months after I bought him. I made the appointment to have it taken off. The vet was VERY surprised at what she found and brought it to the lab. My horse was diagnosed with Apocrine Carcinoma. Very rare for a horse to get. The vet had to remove a LOT. He had a huge scar and couldn't put his head down for about two weeks.
One year later, I found another bump. Very small about 1/8 of an inch and barely raised. I had it taken off and tested. Again, Apocrine Carcinoma.
It's been quite a while now and I don't see any other bumps. However, I have been warned that the cancer could metastacize anywhere in his body and to be on the look out.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 8:35 am:
The question is not what is our toleration of risk Roy. Sarcoids are usually managable so the risk is not great but what is YOUR toleration for risk?
DrO
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Member:
Royd
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 26, 2005 - 2:39 pm:
"Sarcoids are usually manageable" - Indeed that is the issue DrO. As a retired scientist the first question I have is, what is the definition of "usually manageable". Based on what we have learned from you (and this forum) as well as the owner's vet and ours, we believe the risk is acceptable and are going to purchase the horse.
One curious item we came across over the past week while learning about sarcoids is that the experience of two Vets in Arizona is remarkably different. Our local Doctor has not seen a sarcoid since graduate school (after ~7 years of a very active large animal practice in Kingman, AZ). The owner's vet has a practice in Sierra Vista, AZ (~400 miles to the SE of Kingman) and has been routinely treating sarcoids over about the same number of years.
Anyway, thanks again (all) for the info.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 26, 2005 - 5:06 pm:
Having been involved with chemical and microbiological research in the past I appreciate your quandry Roy and Mary. But "usually" is as accurate as this type probability gets. There are 2 types of probablility in this world. There is the type you see with a roulette wheel, where you can calculate the exact probablility to the infinite degree of the chance a particular event will happen next. Why? Because there are no unknowns. Then there is the type we see in medicine where not only are there unknowns there may be many more unknowns than knowns. There the best we can do is see what happened in similar cases. If it helps I would not let a past history of a sucessfully (so far) treated sarcoid stop me from buying a good} horse.
DrO
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Member:
Cindyljk
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2005 - 2:20 am:
My American SAddlebred Mare is 16, and a Gold Champagne Palomino. (pink skin with freckles). Shortly after I bought her 3 years ago I saw that she had a smallish dry spot on her belly. I asked my trainer about it and she said it was fungus. I applied fungicide, but it did nothing so I stopped and decided to leave the dry patch alone.
This summer I hired an Equine Massuse. She found the spot and said it was dry skin and picked at it. Within two days my mare was covered in bumps and sore in the area, so I called the massuse. She said it was fly bites and to apply SWAT. The swat (which I now know is highly toxic and dangerous), caused horrid swelling and sores. I called the vet and he did a biopsy, and identified a Sarcoid Tumor.
He has consulted a specialist who has advised me to measure the tumors regularly and report and growth... that they may need to be surgically removed. I am not happy about the prospect of surgery in such a sensitive area.
These tumors are dry, somewhat flat, about 5 inches long and 2 inches wide, creamish in color. They do not look at all like the sarcoid tumors I have seen pictures of, with the necks on them. There was a nodule, but it has shrunk to the size of a pencil eraser, an dried up.
One sarcoid is near the udder. The other is 3 inches down the belly, so they are not visible unless you are under the mare.
Have any of you tried Sacrid Ointment? Do any of you have other treatment suggestions?
Thank you,
Cindy
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2005 - 9:58 am:
Hi Cindy,
Many people swear by Crest toothpaste for treatment of equine sarcoids. Run a search on this site, and you'll find a lot of success stories.
Good luck
Lynn
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2005 - 12:04 pm:
Cindy,
I trained a Morgan gelding once that had two sarcoids on his flank area -- right on the thin skin at the base of the big whorl of hair that distinquishes the barrel from the hip/leg. Surgery was not recommended in that area because of the way the skin would be constantly stretched. Injections were used (I believe they were tuberculin based?) and the sarcoids disappeared and never reappeared. Years later, the horse is used very successfully as a lesson horse for private lessons and summer horsemanship camps.
From reading previous postings, it doesn't sound as if the injection method is often successful, but in the gelding's case, it was.
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2005 - 1:33 pm:
I would use the exterra, which is a brown gooey cream that you will have to get from your vet. I had very good success with it in treating one of my mares with a small sarcoid. I would use this product before surgery. The exterra goes into every part of the sarcoid, which typically has threads or fibers extending out from it, so surgerically removing it isnt going to get it all anway. this stuff really works! Your vet might want to biopsy one of the sarcoids, to confirm it isnt cancerous. chris www.canyonrimranch.net
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 8:41 am:
Cynthia the article associated with this discussion discusses the above treatments and others click on » Sarcoid » on the navigation frame above.
DrO
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