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  Discussion on How long should a fever go on in a possible stangles case?
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Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 6:38 pm:

I have a filly that started a high fever on Sat. 104.5. The vet told me to give her 2 grams of bute a day and the fever should go down in a couple of days. Sun. 103.5, Mon 105.7, Tue 100.1, Wednesday 103.3, Today 104.5. The vet says to keep waiting.
She had profuse amounts of snot but no swelling till today. The swelling is higher up in her throat instead of right under her jaw where I'm used to. It right at the crook of the neck/jaw and you can only feel it if you push in and up.

Will this fever keep persisting and when should I be worried? Will it take forever with the swelling not in the typical place.

I've never had high fevers this long and it scares me. The filly is eating and drinking but depressed. She likes to lay down in the snow alot probably feels real good.

uggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 6:40 pm:

Oh and the snot was runny and bright green not creamy either. Snot everywhere yuck!!!!!!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 8:17 am:

The course of the disease depends on the cause with the 2 most likely being EHV-1 or Strangles. The course of these diseases are very variable from individual to individual for more on them see the articles. However the fevers you describe, by themselves, are not dangerous and not uusual. It is the sum total of the vital signs that indicate how critical your horse is for more on this see Equine Diseases » First Aid » Taking Temperature, Pulse, and Respiration.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 11:26 am:

Last night my filly went off her feed and stayed in the shelter laying down most of the time. Last night the swelling finally got huge and under the jaw. This morning the swelling is down but isn't open externally.
This morning she didn't eat either. She was hot to the touch and the snot is now creamy. She has lots of foam coming out of her mouth and it doesn't look like snot. I got called into work so my mom is taking the temp and giving bute this morning. I called my vet and Im waiting for a call back. Im trying not to be a worrysome bother but this scares me.

Has anyone else had foam coming out of their horses mouth with this?
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 11:48 am:

A horse of mine had foam coming out of his mouth -- terrifying. Plus he kept circling, lying down and getting up (obvious belly ache). In that case the reason was he had gotten ulcers from receiving Bute over a few days while not being well enough to swallow anything WITH the Bute. First he just kept standing with his mouth down in the water bucket but not swallowing any (A mare had corned him up, repeatedly kicking, and his esophaghas was injured so he could not swallow). After the foam started running out of his mouth the Vet pumped his stomach, hydrated him, and tubed in pepto-bismol, which I had to administer for a number of days following. He also gave him a steroid shot to reduce the inflammation so he could resume eating and drinking. Needless to say, no more Bute was administered! After that he began eating and drinking again and was on the path to recovery. Your filly could have a case of ulcers since she hasn't been eating but has been receiving Bute. Good luck -- let us know how you make out with this.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 2:07 pm:

I gave her something with live cultures in it can't remember name? It comes in a tube, and i gave her 600 mg of cemetidine.

Her temp for the 7th day in a row is 104.5. She shows no interest in food and doesn't want to drink. She looks like she wants to but when she gets it in her mouth she just stops, hurts like hell even with 1gram butte 2 times a day. Mom cleaned her nose but she is still foaming from the mouth. The vet said it possibly ruptured inside her throat and just keep going with the bute.

With not wanting to eat how long should I let this go on and what should I be doing now.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 2:12 pm:

I gave her something with live cultures in it can't remember name? It comes in a tube, and i gave her 600 mg of cemetidine.

Her temp for the 7th day in a row is 104.5. She shows no interest in food and doesn't want to drink. She looks like she wants to but when she gets it in her mouth she just stops, hurts like hell even with 1gram butte 2 times a day. Mom cleaned her nose but she is still foaming from the mouth. The vet said it possibly ruptured inside her throat and just keep going with the bute.

With not wanting to eat how long should I let this go on and what should I be doing now.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 3:39 pm:

Make sure she is not getting dehydrated. Take a pinch of her hide between your thumb and fore finger and after you let it go if it stands up instead of being elastic and quickly returning to normal that is a sign of dehydration. If she continues to not drink you may need to get Vet to administer fluids either IV or via tubing. Tubing not great if throat is ruptured, but would indicate the condition of the stomach to see what contents come out the hose when tubed. Not eating or drinking with the Bute could sure be tearing her stomach up and causing a lot of pain if you are putting Bute in on top of ulcers as I was. Cannot help but wonder whether Banamine shots would be better, and if this continues any length of time, I believe a Vet should examine her. I had the Vet come out the minute the foam was coming out of his mouth. Keep an eye on the capillary refill time of her gums too. Is she passing manure or urine? My boy stopped doing so after about two days of not taking anything in. What a stress to the kidneys -- a horse HAS to have water to survive. And I can only imagine how stressful this is for you and your Mother. Hope she resumes eating and drinking soon.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 3:40 pm:

I don't think the reflux from the mouth has anything to do with a ruptured abscess and is more likely indicative of a pharyngeal or esophageal obstruction. Your vet must come out right now and rule out this possibility by passing a nasogastric tube into the stomach. This also is what was going on with Vicki's horse and passing the tube corrected the problem, I would bet.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 26, 2005 - 6:32 pm:

There is a very good chance you are correct about my horse due to the cirumstances at that time! He had been eating when the mare popped her stall door open, entered his stall and attacked him, because I had forgotten to put the clip on her door (his door was open). He didn't show any sign of choke, however, but perhaps wouldn't if the blockage was deeper? He ran into the top of the stall wall very hard, and you could see a line across his chest where he hit the top of the wall, trying to escape. She kicked holes right through the stall wall. I thought the miraculous recovery was due to the steroid shot, but may well have been due to opening a blockage. What came out the hose was the green foam as far as I can recall (this was over 10 years ago), but I didn't look too closely at that time and the Vet was fairly new out of school working for the only equine Vet in our area with enough staff to come in an emergency any day, any time. He was very good, and sought help when he didn't know the best answers, and all that mattered to me was the good outcome I had! I certainly hope Cheryl has a good outcome also.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2005 - 5:42 pm:

Sorry all I was gone this weekend mom was taking care of the horses.

I switched to banamine for the fever and pain and she appears to be not as miserable but still enough Im worried. The vet said he would come out if the lump had softened enough to be lanced. But if it is ruptured in her throat????? He said if she is breathing and not acting like a choke there is no reason to tube her.........

Her temp is down to 103 and she is eating today finally. I keep using hot compresses on her throat it is hard as a rock and still up high, when I do the compress she DrOols alot and it's foamy, doesn't look like puss but I can't tell, the lump appears to go down after the heat, but then gets enormous and hard again.

I say it's ruptured and draining in her throat, should I get it lanced now? It presents hard as a rock but after heat it goes down...

I know this just hast to go its course but man I am at my whits end...
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2005 - 10:16 pm:

Glad things seem a little better but I have no experience dealing with the strangles abscesses so don't know how to advise you in that regard. If she is eating and drinking again that is very important. One thing I found that surprised me when a horse of mine was having a choke episode was that he cleared it out when fed some chopped alfalfa forage at ground level -- stretching downward to the horses' normal grazing position seemed to help clear that blockage, so that might make your horse more comfortable if you are currently feeding at a higher height. I understand it is good if these abscessed come to a head and can be drained rather than being encapsulated somewhere else in the body. Hopefully when this clears up there will be no lasting affects. What an ordeal for you. Hope each day brings improvement.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 29, 2005 - 7:33 am:

Cheryl, your comments suggest your veterinarian does not understand what "choke" is. It is not an obstruction of the trachea but a obstruction of the esophagous. The horse is able to continue to breath but there is a large amount of salivia and food reflux so stuff pours out of the horses nose and mouth. You also described other important signs in your previous post: the inability to eat and drink. I don't know what other signs one would look for. Has your horse began to eat and drink?

I have never seen a strangles abscess that opened into the throat like you describe.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 29, 2005 - 5:32 pm:

I love my vet but sometimes I feel that important things are skipped but I would have to travel 5 hours on bad roads to get to another vet.

Today she has a temp of 103.8. She now has had a temp for 11 days. I gave more banamine it seems to keep her more comfy she is still eating small amounts I have to feed her in the shelter she doesn't like to come out. I found a soft spot in the lump today. It's just like a strangles bump but up higher in the crook I imagine it would put a lot of restriction on her swallowing and breathing it is almost the size of a softball.

I called and told the vets office I need them to come out today and try and lance it. I also metioned what you told me DrO but they are still thinking it is just strangles. I told them I wanted to check her blood just in case. Her urine is very dark and smelly which excreting drugs and having a high fever with no food for almost 3 days would probably be the norm but I want to know if everything is ok.

DrO what is the longest you have seen fevers in strangles?

I will let you know what turns out.

Thanks Im probably annoying now.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 29, 2005 - 8:30 pm:

When you say "in the crook" that makes me think you are talking about the location of the lymph gland that is there. Thankfully,I don't know much about strangles, but of course that gland will get swollen when it is fighting infection and can even be a small (pea-like) swollen bump normally. Let us know how it goes! Good luck -- what an ordeal . . .
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2005 - 6:30 am:

3 weeks is not uncommon Cheryl for a horses first episode. If she is eating and drinking without reflux from the nose or mouth you do not have to worry about choke.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2005 - 4:55 pm:

the vet decided to let her go longer and try to break the abcess on its own.

Today she had a temp of 103.5 I gave her a shot of banamine and accidently elbowed her in the abcess when I turned around, which is definitly the size of a softball... and it exploded! Oh my gosh I felt so bad, and she was definitly mad. I got about 16 oz of puss out, and when I squeezed it foam did come out of her mouth this time yellow, so I do believe it has ruptured somewhere in her throat. Yuck!!!! Poor thing. I do think she is definitly more comfy on the banamine than she was with the bute.

It's funny I work at a funeral home, and I still think the grossest thing in the world is cleaning abcesses......Go Figure.

When do i stop giving her banamine, is there a time limit I have to follow, I've been dosing for 500 pounds once a day.

I definitly feel for anyone with strangles it is a normal thing for horses but can still be freaky. I just hope my other horses don't get it this bad otherwise I will not have any nerves left.

I just picked up an extremely nice arab and I had to rent a stall at the fairgrounds to keep her there so I can hopefully keep her from getting sick. I follow very strict disenfecting so I hope I have some luck.

Thanks so much for putting up with me at this time.
Member:
Marroon

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2005 - 5:45 pm:

Cheryl, boy I sure do feel for you & your mom! Ours had something similar to what you describe but without the snot & slobber and fever. The first abscess was allowed to break on its own and then we treated it from there. He ended up in the hospital that time.

Six months later and we are dealing with another one, but this one we got lanced and it was just so much easier to treat. He seamed so much happier this time also. I know that if we have a third, I will choose the lancing process! I'm sure your vet had reasons not to, it's pretty situational.

Yuck is right. I couldn't imagine all of that all over your arm, but it washes...Thank goodness hu? I bet all will be down hill from here on in, I'm hoping so for you & yours!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2005 - 5:50 pm:

Just remember Cheryl, if the new horse gets it, it is easily treated with penicillin when started early see the article for more on this.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2005 - 6:20 pm:

I guess it's my own fault I opted for no antibotic till she busted open or lancing, I had a case of bastard strangles in a yearling last year and it was very scarry more than this episode. He had strangles and we all missed it was very minor he had to have his head stappled together many times and the course of antibiotics made it go inward.

You think after dealing with strangles many times I would be a pro at this.......hahhaha

Thanks all!
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2005 - 6:38 pm:

I re-read the article and find myself somewhat confused especially because i have delt with a bastard strangles case. I always thought that antibiotics were avoided until the abcess matures and ruptures?

Do you make the call for antibiotics when the snotty nose begins? as long as there is no swelling?

I couldn't find swelling on my filly in the first several days, and when I did it was higher up than typical, she is also the only strangles horse I've had that has had a fever at all. The last episode I had a couple of month s ago he had a swelling on the outside of his jaw instead of underneath. So both cases I would have been thrown off.

My vet gave me uniprim? I'm at work so I can't get the real name. Will uniprim be adequate?

Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 6:57 am:

You have a misconception and that is that antibiotics cause bastard strangles, while this is not true, it does not prevent them either if the antibiotic is started after abscesses are formed. On top of that you used Uniprim, a trimetoprim/sulfa product, the article explains the problems with that.

Antibiotics, follow type and dosage in the article, are started when a firm diagnosis of Strangles is made and before an abscess forms. The article explains how this is done.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 12:48 pm:

My vet assistant gave me a shot last night to give my filly 20cc's of penicillin Im pretty sure it has procaine in it. Then they want me to use uniprim today. The filly put up a tremendous fight for as sick as she is. She tired quick so I split the shot 10cc's both butt cheeks. Poor thing has been so sick she's not a pleasant Please help me type anymore, she's the leave me alone you're gonna kill me type.

I don't see this filly letting me give her many more shots on a daily basis. I wish i had a stock!!

I love my vet but I wish he was more up to date on stuff like this. Heck he still tells people strangles is airborne..... This is the only time I have wanted to do something different than what he wanted but he has always been open to my other ideas.

Is procaine just for IM or does it come in powder?

I don't want to do the sulfa if procaine is better but she's getting pretty upset about shots now. I try to do them as fast as possible but sometimes it doesn't work that way.

Thanks so much DrO!
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 3:46 pm:

When you are hurrying with those procaine penicillin shots, you need to take the time to make sure you don't get it IV instead of IM. Pull back on the plunger and if there is blood in the syringe you need to pull it out and stick it in another site. Procaine penicillin is NOT to be given IV -- could even kill your horse.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 5:14 pm:

Done IM penicillin many times I also warm it up in warm water before using.
Member:
Amyl

Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 7:40 pm:

I have a mare who hates shots so much, she'd rather rear and fall over than get stuck. It was such a battle that one year I chose to not vaccinate her.
Then, somehow the lightbulb went off and I tried a TWITCH. She was so relaxed that she didn't even flinch. Done properly - and I stress *properly* (allowing for the endorphine rush, etc) a twitch can make the experience practically stress free. I was lucky in that she had no previous experience with a twitch (therefore, not a bad experience), so I was able to make it a positive thing.
She currently has a wound that clearly hurts her when it is cleaned (she took me out at the knee a couple of months ago when I was cleaning it). So, now I twitch her and she actually puts her nose in the twitch for me! I think I now have an endorphine junkie - which, I might add, is much better than an out of control 16h 1200lb beast!

Good Luck!
Amy
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 2:12 pm:

DrO my filly finally stopped her fever and she did 7 days of powder antibiotics. She wont tolerate shots anymore and without a stock and I don't have the power to argue. Twitching doesn't do anything with her either. I don't want to stress this filly she has lost a lot of condition with this illness.

She started two new abcesses one on saturday that I lanced and I see an new one on her cheek today. They want me to hold off on antibiotics untill the abcesses have drained. Which I can sorta understand but they want to continue with sulfa powder after they drain.

I talked to them about different antibiotics and the only large animal antibiotics they have now is sulfa powder, and injectable procaine.

Do the better antibiotics come in a powder form that I can order?

Otherwise I guess I will have to see about constructing a small makeshift stock .
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 7:19 am:

Unfortunately oral forms of penicillin have problems in horses, so must be given by injection. In other discussions on the board, some are having success with once daily injections of Naxcel for Strangles. You can retrain your horse to accept injections using the techniques found at, Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 5:49 pm:

Thanks DrO I just thought I would findout sometimes finding other alternatives from your local professionals is kinda difficult they have their prefered way of doing things and don't like deviation. I just wanted to know if I could make things easier on myself.

I will try the modification I just don't really want to push this filly now she really has lost condition.

After the first bout with the sulfa like the office wanted I know that caused the new abcess's forming. So after they mature if there are no other complications, I will start her on procaine or naxcel. I like naxcel so may try that.

I appreciate your help.
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