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Discussion on How many vertibra???
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 12:41 pm:
Dr O.- I am trying to answer a question that came up today that I can't seem to find consistancy in availible info. I have allways heard that Arabs have one less vertibra that other breeds. One the net I have found that some sites say one less throacic (and one less pair of ribs), other say one less lumbar, and still others say up to two less caudal. I have brushed off the caudal as most A&P texts say this can be between 20-23 for all equine breeds but I am still confused as to the real picture on the Thoracic vs. lumbar. I know you are an Arab guy and just might be able to put this to rest.
Thanks-Emily
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Member:
Marroon
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 5:59 pm:
Emily, I have previously searched for such information or even images of such information regarding vertibra and had no luck on line. Will watch to see what the Arab guy says. Thanks for asking as I am pretty new and keep it down to a minimum.
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 6:18 pm:
I'm just a book geek at this but what I've read is
17 ribs
5 lumbar vertebrae
16 tail bones
I think I've heard about less ribs too but don't remember reading anything on it so I'm curious to know aswell...
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 9:43 pm:
CP- was that for arabs? My vet med A&P text lists the following for equines:
7 cervical (neck)
18 thoracic (ribs)
6 lumbar
5 sacral
15-20 caudal (tail)
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2005 - 2:45 pm:
Yes arabs have 17 ribs, 5 lumbar, 16 tail bones. The norm for others is what emily posted. Differences can occur. Heck I have an extra lumbar myself.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2005 - 7:16 pm:
Owwww how did I get entitled with the Arab pro moniker, I have gaited horses and TB's (actually 1 TB since we have get rid of all the mares). But I will take a stab at this.
The usual horse vertebrae count goes as Emily posted however recent research has shown that extra, missing, fused, transitional (particularly thoracolumbar inbetweens), and hemi (where the vertebrae is shorter and missing some features) are the norm for horses these numbers are anything but firm. Several researchers have reported that Arabs frequently have 5 lumbar vertebrae. But this is also reported in donkeys, mules, and Przewalski's horse. It also is occasionally seen in all breeds of horses.
Though 18 thoracic vertebrae is common, 19 is not that unusual. 17 is rare and I can find no support for Cheryl's contention that it is the norm in Arabs. The picture emerging is that the norm is quite variable in all horses.
DrO
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Member:
Onehorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2005 - 7:41 pm:
Boy, Dr. O ... that was some "stab at this" ... LOL!
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2005 - 7:43 pm:
Silly queston, but as we all I am sure have noticed some horse have longer backs, could they have more than the short backed ones?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 7:47 am:
Can be, Liliana, but not necessarily.
A longer back usually means that the vertebrae are longer than average, not more than average.
However, it will be unlikely, I think, that a horse with 17 thoracic and 5 lumbar vertebrae has a really long back.
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 9:18 am:
I just realized my last post made absolutely no sense--oops. I meant to say that what I've read states that Arabs do have 1 less rib. (I think they gave one up to create all other horses  )
I just found these links w/that info if you're interested:
https://field-favorite-arabians.com/history.asp
https://www.equinekingdom.com/breeds/light_horses/arabian.htm
https://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/facts.html
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Member:
Marroon
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 10:06 am:
So, I wonder if the gaited/TB Dr is working on pictures/diagrams for our sight or if I have just missed them. I am still finding my way around.
As for the one less rib to create all other horses that's something similar to what my husband always told me--about something other than horses. Sorry pacer, I never believed him either, but if it works for you that's what counts!  OK who changed the clipart?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 11:19 am:
I cannot find support for the Arab-17-rib theory either. In general (I cannot find a specfic paper on Arabs) 18 ribs is considered the norm but very common is 19 ribs with the extra rib usually being a vestigial last (thoraco-or thoracolumbar) rib sometimes not even connected to the vertebrae. 17 ribs is considered rare in horses.
DrO
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 12:30 pm:
When I say norm I mean it is the accepted norm in the arabian community, it is always mentioned in arabian history. They say it is the reason for the short back and high tail carriage. I will ask around and see if anyone has proof that this is so.
I do know that my vet did an autopsy on a mustang that the herd did have arabian background and he did have 5 lumbar but I don't know about the ribs. This horse was shorter backed and had other arabian features.
As with any animal or human there are variances.
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 8:25 pm:
Boy am I sorry that I missed a day of this, especially since I started it... And I have to appologize to you Dr O, I think is all the studying that caused the momentary confusion on your breed of choice. Honest to God, I should have had my head exsamined before giveing up a perfectly good carrer to go back to school to become a vet! Any hoo...
So the 18th rib answers a question we had but figured wasn't worth asking. This additional rib pair would be similar to the "floating attachment" seen in canines and felines, speaking in a comparitive light.
Thanks for the very respectable stab...That helped a bunch
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 8:27 pm:
Oops, I ment 19th rib pair... there I go again.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Friday, Apr 8, 2005 - 3:22 pm:
Thank you Christos, I guess that is why some people shy away from longed back horses as they say that it means they have a weaker back
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