|
|
Discussion on Two more vets say no ringbone...
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 19, 2005 - 10:36 am:
I couldn't find my original post....but two more vets cannot see any ringbone on my horses' xrays. I am absolutely thrilled about this, they said that since the vet didn't do an articular block, we'll never really know and since he blocked sound it was probably the sidebone causing him pain. If he goes off again, I can do an articular block to rule it out definately.
I sold my horse trailer to pay the unneeded vet bills ($3K over 2 months), my horse received an unneeded coffin joint injection that made him lamer than he was before - took him 1 month to get back to just off to the right, and now my poor boy has ulcers from the unneeded stall rest. So I can't bute him and ride him until I've fixed the ulcers.
Second opinions, sooner rather than later, is my lesson for this year.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 21, 2005 - 11:20 pm:
Fourth opinion of no ringbone, including you Dr. O.
He does say, however, that the angle of the coffin bone should be 2 to 3 degrees higher....that the coffin bone should not align evenly to the sole. He says that if I can find a farrier to fix his feet I probably wouldn't have to worry about ulcers (he's been on gastroguard for 5 days and is finally eating like my horse again).
He says to have my farrier raise his heel.
He would not take blood for the selenium deficiency nor the insulin resistance tests...I won't go into why unless you want to know Dr. O.
He says my horse is just a very easy keeper. I told him I'm only giving him 3.5 pounds of hay in the morning and 6 cups of oat pellets in his pasture pal. He does get to graze 1/2" to 1" grass now for four hours in the morning. At night he gets 5 pounds of hay and 8 cups of oat pellets in his pasture pal.
Sorry to put this all under one topic...I'm just tired.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 22, 2005 - 6:17 am:
I will see if we can get these moved to your older posts so we can compare this last vets statements with the radiographs.
DrO
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 22, 2005 - 11:30 pm:
Okay, let me know and if you'd like I'll upload them again to a more appropriate place.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 26, 2005 - 4:36 pm:
I recieved a message from the diagnosing vet today. I've tried to type what I could from my cell phone:
On the xrays, I reviewed them after our conversation, I did see a calcification on the early films that on the latter films was not as prominent. I don’t know if there is calcification absorbed. But it was there on the initial set.
On the follow up xrays, the angle may have been different so it was not as obvious.
If the other vets didn’t look at the first set of films on the front outside there is a calcification.
It was not appreciated in the films … Didn’t see it on the new ones April 6 – but prominent on the first visit – February. Whether there has been some reabsorption – Cortisone will allow some absorption...
Maybe the difference of angle of xrays – February was at 22 degrees and the April was at 28 degrees … If we’re 2 or 3 degrees off some things may not image"
I think...hope...what this vet saw was the pedal osteitis that the last vet saw.
I will begin research to see if pedal osteitis can cause lameness.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 2, 2005 - 10:09 pm:
Dr. O, could I bother you to please look at one last xray?
The diagnosing vet sent me a new CD and wrote me a note:
There is a calcification of the coffin joint at 2 o'clock. Perhaps the standard imaging did not show this I enlarged it and it is quite appreciable.
I'll also email you the large image. I hope you don't mind...
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 2, 2005 - 11:33 pm:
I forgot to add that he appeared off today, so I tested him...not quite right trotting to the right but not lame...and high headbobbing going to the left even at the walk during the transition. If he stays lame we're off to see my lameness vet for another full lameness exam as soon as I get transport and an appointment.
Why oh why did I say I had a sound horse in the other thread 
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 7:36 am:
Bad luck, Aileen: I know what you mean, it's fatal to say a horse is much better. It always makes me hesitate to ever post a positive update on my horse!
In Greece it's usual to say "phtu phtu" (that's as near as I can write it!) to avert the evil eye
after a relieved/optimistic comment like that - seems to work, too!
I hope this is just a transient blip for you.
Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 8:56 am:
Aileen, this radiograph continues to support the idea that it is the calcified lateral cartilage and not ringbone because you can clearly see a lot of the rostral portion is not associated with the joint margin.
DrO
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 11:03 am:
Thank you so very much Dr. O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a relief...I'm tired.
Lynn, do you mind if I borrow the Greece saying phtu phtu???? I think he was already better this morning when I went down to feed...phtu phtu
Thanks Lynn!
|
Member:
Christos
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 11:47 am:
Just saying phtu phtu does not always do the trick, Aileen. The traditional, complete trick is to spit on him while you say phtu phtu and to hang at least one blue bead on every halter or bridle. This is, however, just preventive treatment.
A whole garlic head hanging from a full necklace of beads is aggressive treatment for the acute form of evil eye.
For badly "evilly eyed" animals you may also need the services of specialists who will murmur a secret spell over a glass of water and olive oil. The spell is transatlantic, so if you think you need it just DrOp a line, I can arrrange for the service in no time.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 3:28 pm:
CHRISTOS! You are bad! You KNOW I need all the help I can get 
|
Member:
Christos
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 4, 2005 - 6:38 am:
You can now relax from your worries, Aileen, the spell is on.
But please, do let us know of its effects, as the old lady says she has no great experience with horses. It does work with centauri and unicorns, so it should be good for all equidae, but some years ago it failed to cure a sick sea horse, so we're not sure.
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 4, 2005 - 6:57 am:
Well, the natural habitat of the sea horse is not conducive to keeping spit or olive oil in place, so that's no doubt the sole reason for her one failure.
Hope you get good results, Aileen!
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 4, 2005 - 11:06 am:
Lol...you two are too funny Thanks Christos, I'm SURE he'll be sound from now on ...phtu, phtu, phtu, phtu, phtu,phtu, phtu, phtu, phtu, phtu, phtu, phtu, phtu
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 4, 2005 - 10:05 pm:
Well it worked... he was sound today!
Anyone want to take bets on tomorrow?
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 - 10:35 am:
Hello All,
I had a vet out yesterday, he has access to a bone/lameness specialist and would rather I bring my horse in to the clinic to see the specialist. He watched him move and saw left hind right front lameness. To my eye, he was significantly more lame than he's been in quite a while...He was one week late on his adequan shot so I'm sure the left hind was the djd.
I gave him the rundown and he said that at the very least, he would do an ultrasound of that right foot to determine if indeed any tendons or ligaments are damaged, if so, to follow Gillis' recommendations -- the same recommendations you have Dr. O -- for rehab.
I had sent the xrays to his bone specialist prior to this appointment...he does not see the ringbone either.
The diagnosing vet called again to say that he brought the xray to a colleague and the colleague saw the ringbone.
|
Member:
Suzeb
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 - 3:05 pm:
Hi Aileen,
The thing that I am having a problem with is the CD that you have the X-Rays on and the vet who took the pictures. The original diagnosing vet who brought the pictures to his colleague may have influenced him/her in the wonders of this new software.
I don't mean to get your heart soaring and then crash and burn.
If the new vet can offer some more answers with a diagnosis, via his bone specialist, then go with it. It might entail more X-Rays with their machines and a stay at the clinic. See if the clinic has a horse trailer that you could rent or borrow.
I would talk to someone about giving Brave some Bute or other anti-inflammatory to make him more comfortable.
Keep us posted Aileen,
Susan B.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 - 3:47 pm:
Thanks Susan, it's ok...I'm on my own private emotional rollercoaster...at least the ups and downs aren't as drastic anymore...
He did get bute (for his teeth tho - floated) and his adequan yesterday, so we'll see how it goes -- I hate to bute him because of his belly issues. He is not noticeably lame (to my eye - just stiff) at the walk.
It's going to rain tonight and he's always worse the day before a rain, it's also DrOpped 10 degrees and will continue to DrOp...I'm hoping the hind lameness was his djd.
The vet said we had to address the hind lameness to fix the front. I'm hoping after the rain, he'll be back to just the front nqr. We'll go in for the lameness exam. Ultrasound first, if he sees nothing, lameness exam...then if needed I'll get another round of xrays...I really don't want to do that though, he's had so many!
|
Member:
9193
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 17, 2005 - 1:14 am:
HI Aileen,
I'll be interested in following your posts too Aileen.
I am not clear on the ritual... Do we start spitting now or after the rain stops /before the next exam???
Hang in there!
Debra
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 17, 2005 - 10:28 am:
No no, we don't spit for good luck in the future; we spit after saying something like, "what a healthy beautiful horse!" or, "my horse is completely cured now!"
These are the times when the wicked jealous evil eye will step in to prove you WRONG. 
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 17, 2005 - 6:27 pm:
I will keep you all posted...It's just hard to believe that a horse that looks healthy with a dappled coat, and is flat out sassy and silly, can be in pain.
I think I'm going to ask the bone specialist what he thinks about chiropractic and if he can recommend anyone. I really do not want to use the vet that diagnosed him (who also did chiro on my horse)....for obvious reasons.
|
Member:
9193
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 18, 2005 - 12:42 am:
Aaahhhh, I got it now LL.. Well, I won't be doing any ptueying for any reason in the near future.. I'm too paranoid.. Every time Justin takes a slip, stumble or prances around on all fours for some reason, I see us taking eight weeks worth of hand walking backward!!
Aileen-I know how you feel when you look at your gorgeous, healthy looking horse and wonder "why can't you move as healthy as you look?" (sigh)
Curious tho- are you going to have his foot ultrasounded?
Debra
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 18, 2005 - 11:22 am:
Hi Debra,
Fortunately these vets feel my frustration and are willing to diagnose my horse correctly, whatever it takes. My best bet though would be if his hind lameness is the djd, then I can take him down and hopefully get a true diagnosis. (I'm glad he showed me how to give shots, so he'll be able to stay on schedule - I must admit, I wasn't too worried about the schedule since he isn't working -- I was wrong! Since I've started this it didn't seem to matter to my horse *lameness wise* if it was 2 or 3 weeks, but with the weather as it is, that seemed to make a huge difference!)
They know I've spent a lot of money on a misdiagnosis, so I'm also hoping we'll go step by step to determine this so I can save as much money as I can. I suppose the best thing to do would be to block the leg bit by bit, then do the ultrasounding...yes I want the ultrasound regardless to determine any tendon/ligament damage done, but this way we may not have to do too many...and perhaps we won't need to do xrays.
I *may* have a chiro out before I take him down to the clinic...just to rule out back pain.
I'll be checking my horse later today and I'll post on what I find.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 18, 2005 - 2:43 pm:
Ok...he's sound...what do I do?
Do I go to the expense of a clinic visit to determine he has arthritis, which I already know?
Maybe he does have ringbone and the adequan helps that as well?
I can't believe the change would be this drastic from Wednesday and it not be arthritis. Am I wrong in my assumption?
I know Dr. O said that it is not rare for a horse to be sound one day and not the next from a tendon injury rehab...but this much difference?
I am so confused and I want to do what is right. But I just don't know anymore.
|
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 18, 2005 - 3:46 pm:
Aileen, what to do? Maybe wait two more weeks see how he is... if fine... start back on him SLOWLY .. stays fine.. SLOWLY increase his work...
One thing we know for sure... it will either get better or worse...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 18, 2005 - 4:32 pm:
Good idea Ann
I ran into my vet on the side of the road... how lucky is that?
I told him Brave was sound today and he said "must of been the teeth" with a wink...I said OR the adequan. He said if he's sound because of the Adequan it most likely is not a tendon injury. He said his bloodwork came back normal. He said to use him and see what happens.
I'm going to do the two weeks with nothing but pasture, then lightly start back....unless he tells me in no uncertain terms that he needs to work (attitude)
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 19, 2005 - 9:22 am:
Anyway, very good news that he's sound, and it seems to point in the preferred direction of being the arthritis that you already know about. Fingers crossed!
What is your schedule for Adequan shots? I thought the usual way was 7 shots at 4 day intervals every 6 months.
Do hope he stays sound for you! All the best,
Lynn
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 19, 2005 - 10:03 am:
Thanks Lynn,
He's on maintenance with the Adequan. I've taken him off of all joint supplements and he is getting only the Adequan. Two vets said every 2 weeks if in work, every 4 weeks if not in work. When in hard work, every week. I'm giving it every 2 weeks just to see what I'll get...I may have to go to every week, but who knows. If that's the case I may go back to Cosequin as his treatment -- with Adequan less often when in hard work. I'll have to see what works for him and go from there.
I'm going to see if I can find someone to come here to do an ultrasound just in case. It would be much less expensive than a clinic visit.
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2005 - 8:29 am:
Hi Aileen,
Have you had another ultrasound yet? Let us know how it turns out.
Thanks for the Adequan info - I didn't know you could give it like that as well. But it's sooooo expensive here ...
Hope the news of Brave is good!
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2005 - 8:54 am:
Hi Lynn,
Yes, it's expensive here too...
No ultrasound yet, the vet that does it has been out of town, I'm hoping in a couple of weeks.
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 6:26 am:
Oh, sounds as if we'll be ultrasounding at the same time, then!
|
Member:
Angel77
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 27, 2005 - 3:33 am:
Dear Aileen,
Adequan can be purchased at a reasonable price from Smart Pak Equine # 800-461-8898. I use them for everything especially my legend. Most items are $5-20 off store prices. Your vet has to fax the RX to 781-826-0557.
Good Luck,
Tell them Wendy Gleason sent you.
WTG
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 27, 2005 - 10:53 am:
Thanks Wendy...this should help a lot.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 27, 2005 - 10:56 am:
Lynn,
I forgot to say phtu phtu phtu. He's comfortable at the walk...does not want to move out at all in pasture, I've watched him the last couple of days and all he'll do is a bit of trot - not comfortably, but not lame - then back to walk. He is as calm and mellow as he can be, so I'm just letting him be.
I hope the vet gets back today!
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 28, 2005 - 8:37 am:
Aileen,
Do try to not to forget the phtu phtu. Hope your vet's back soon and you can get some ANSWERS. It's so frustrating I know. My horse is getting really fed up with all this. It was terrifically windy yesterday and a plastic bag full-bellied with air started chasing us around the arena. This did not go down well. This morning on the other hand, it was really hot and windless, with the result that she would hardly put one foot in front of the other. My trainer is saying it's really time I got on her, and suggested bareback. I'm going away for a week on Thursday, and various friends have said they'll walk her for me, but Im a bit worried - don't want anything to go wrong and to have to go back to the beginning! As soon as I get back, it's ultrasound time....
Let's compare notes then, and here's hoping we both have good news! (phtu phtu)
Lynn
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2005 - 9:55 am:
The vet's coming July 19. I asked him to do an ultrasound and he said he could tell if it was a tendon without the ultrasound....oh boy, I guess I'm going to have to insist!
Since it's going to be three weeks, what do you all think of putting him on cosequin as well? Just to see if it helps? Maybe the 2 week intervals of Adequan isn't enough? Then go to once a month adequan if I see improvement?
I must remember that this pain could be his sidebone as well. But if that's the case, people are telling me to bute and work...I just LOVE guessing games! NOT.
|
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2005 - 10:37 am:
Aileen they can tell if something is not right with the tendon's by pushing pulling pinching... all tho , there could be something very small i guess that does not show with pressure.. but with work..??
good luck...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 2, 2005 - 10:10 am:
Your vet is right about the suspensory problems: it should be diagnosable on physical exam and I am always very suspicious of the desmitis found on ultrasound. The main role of the ultrasound is to define the amount of damage. There is no contraindication, other than the cost, for trying the Cosequin. Though these type products and Adequan do help they almost never make the difference between lame or sound.
DrO
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 2, 2005 - 7:43 pm:
You are correct Dr. O, as always. Yesterday, he trotted sound to me from pasture - down a slight slope. Head perfectly level, not one bob whatsoever, on very hard ground. Usually, this is where I see him being uncomfortable.
He's pretty mellow today, I was thinking of testing him in the arena tomorrow and see what he does...but I think I'll just wait. Maybe it's me testing him that causes his setbacks?
Anyways...phtu phtu phtu...that he continues to be on the mend.
|
|
|
