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Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 26, 2005 - 11:23 pm:

I've moved this since ringbone doesn't appear to be the diagnosis....

The vet that saw him last said he does not attribute this lameness to Pedal Osteitis nor ringbone. He feels that since my horse was sound for only 2 to 3 days after getting his coffin joint injected, it was probably muscle or tendon. He said that if my horse had stayed sound, then that may be a different story.

Do you agree with this Dr. O?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 26, 2005 - 11:25 pm:

This vet seems to feel that the farrier's work is to blame...however, he also respects my farrier and thinks I made a good choice.

Here are the xrays from the farrier series.

Right frontLeft Front
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 10:25 am:

My horse wasn't cooperating for the rear feet...but here they are

Left rearRight Rear
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 3:43 pm:

how long before these x-rays was he shod? Is he prone to loosing his shoes?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 3:59 pm:

Hi Sara,

To tell you the truth, I can't remember what she did at the last appointment prior to these being taken, but I do know he was shod about two weeks following the taking of these xrays. She took off toe, but no heel.

No, he has only lost one shoe in the 6 years I've owned him. His front feet have the polyeurothane shoes on, backs still have the steel shoes on.

Do you have any ideas?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 7:24 pm:

I was just thinking his toes looked long and I was impressed by the number of nails plus clips to hold the shoes on. If his angles are different than they normally are, or if they were changed very much in one shoeing, it could be enough to make the horse lame, at least for a while. I don't feel qualified to comment on anything else, but think you should wait for Dr. O's comments.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 8:22 am:

Concerning your vets statements no I do not think the injections were diagnostic one way or the other and agree with Sara, if at all possible I would like to see the toe squared off more.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 10:59 am:

His Sara, he gets six nails per hoof. 3 on each side. I thought the same thing when I first saw these! This farrier has been working on balancing his feet. She only had shod him twice before these xrays were taken.

It sounds like I will not be able to be figure this out unless he shows the same symptoms again. My horse is feeling much better and is definately pasture sound....I saw a very nice medium trot from him yesterday...so I may never know what was really wrong.

The farrier called last night and she will call the vet directly and will then come out and look at his feet at some point...probably before his next appointment May 22. Until then, he'll be able to be a horse with no work. I'm slowly integrating him back to his overgrown pasture.

Thanks again Dr. O...You are the best!!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2005 - 10:02 am:

Aileen, it sounds like your farrier is working with the vet to help your horse, which is how it should be. If he was really out of balance, and the farrier made even relatively minor corrections, it wouldn't be unusual for him to be a little lame for a few days.

To use a human example, I just started wearing orthotics in my shoes to correct pronation. After wearing them for a day my legs were sore in the calves and knees. Gradually, as my body is adjusting to walking correctly I am becoming less sore. Same with a horse.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2005 - 10:27 am:

Yes Sara, I can only hope this is what caused this whole fiasco in the first place since this farrier had just started working on him when this mystery lameness first began. But of course it had to turn into a circus with the ringbone diagnosis.

But no more dwelling on that for me. I have a happy healthy horse with DAPPLES on his coat. I swear it's been forever since I've seen dapples on him...at least 2 years. At first I thought ...hmmm, are those dapples or dimples (from being so fat) ...but no..they're dapples
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2005 - 10:40 am:

Good news!! I love to see sleek horses with their coats shinning dapples! Hopefully, the lamness issues are over. Life with horses would be so much easier if they could talk (....hmmm, on second thought, maybe it's a good thing they can't! Mine are opinionated enough as it is!)
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2005 - 11:12 am:

That is good news Aileen . What and ordeal you have been through. I knew whth all your persistence and worrying that you would get things figured out.

My best to you and Brave.

Susan B.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2005 - 11:29 pm:

Sara, if he could talk, it would be a wonderful thing because then I would know what hurt him! However, I know that he'd just keep whining...But WHY can't I stay out and eat grass ALL DAY!! He threw a little temper tantrum tonight when I was bringing him in from his alloted 2 hours, and I looked him in the eye and said you need to come in now because you could founder and then we'd be back to where we started.... So we'll take it slow...ok? and I SWEAR ...he blinked, put his head down and walked with me oh so politely back to his stall. So I guess he does talk...in his own way

Susan, thank you...I'm knocking wood furiously that this is just something not as bad as ringbone and he'll come out of it just fine. The real test will be when he goes back to work...crossing fingers and hooves that all will be well!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 7:33 pm:

Hi All,

The farrier came out today after talking with the vet. First she did the front feet. She put steel shoes on and put a 3 degree wedge pad on each to make them 53 degrees each. She said the vet thought that with such significant sidebone, high heels may help him there.

Then she wanted to see him move before she did the back feet. He went well, however to the right he still stuck his head up in the air for a few strides.

She put each back foot at 56 degrees with no pads and had me lunge him again. He was better to the right this time, still with the head up but not nearly as dramatic. He picked up both leads correctly at the canter and seemed to be very comfortable in that gait. He does appear to be sound and happy in a straight line in all three gaits.

My questions are, what would you do? Would you continue on with a full lameness exam or give the poor horse some time and see how he does?

If so, supposing he makes no improvement nor worsens, how much time would you let pass? (If he gets worse, he will of course get to go to the vet)

Would you work him during this time? My thoughts on this is because of his arthritis. He hasn't been worked in 3 months so I'm sure he's quite stiff even though he has access to pasture, he's not exactly giving himself exercise and he is quite tubby.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 2:03 am:

Aileen:In my thurmsghmmmuh-something years of showing, training and just enjoying my horses, I've dealt with many forms of chronic lameness. I've found that with chronic degenerative problems like arthritis, ringbone, sidebone, navicular synDrOme, etc., if you have developed the ability to "read" your horses' pain, gentle low-impact riding with no sharp turns, and no speed, seems to keep the joints limber, the nutrients flowing, and the mind refreshed ( and not just on the horse ). If you're lucky enough to have access to flat trails with good footing and gentle, if any, hills, steady riding seems to do wonders. A laid-back walk at a pace of the horse's choosing seems to help avoid the pent-up energy that builds up in an unridden animal. Get your vet's OK and enjoy a gentle ride.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 10:52 am:

Aileen is the head "up" or is it bobbing at the trot?
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 11:01 am:

Just UP...not bobbing...is there a difference?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 3:56 pm:

Thank you Lee for responding. With the dramatic change in the shoeing, I'm thinking of waiting a week to let his tendons get used to the new angles. Does this seem like too long or too short of time?

btw, Dr. O, obviously there is a difference between Up and bobbing, just wondering what that would be. I reviewed your articles on lameness yet again...and one other thing to note is that he was only lifting his head UP at one area of the arena. The sand is a bit deeper there versus the rest of the arena. When I brought him to the other side, he still did it, but not nearly as noticeable and only for 2 strides. With all the rain we've had, my arena is...shall we say *not even* and I haven't tended to it aside from harrowing a couple of times a week.

I do have a call into my vet. My horse is also getting a massage tomorrow, we'll see if that helps. His shoulders have been so tight for the past three months now...we'll see if it helps or not.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 5:46 pm:

Darn Aileen, i could use a nice massage about now... Funny i don't bat an eye at special shoes/vet calls for my horses or how often... BUT when out for myself.. i pass and say.. i can do without, these shoes/ or back ache can wait... :-) or maybe tomorrow i will feel better..:-)

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 9:25 pm:

Ann, if you don't have anything to do around 10, come on over, my horse gives great massages
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 9:03 am:

With lameness the head bobs at a trot. The persistently high head comes with excitement, lack of relaxation, and some forms of resistance.
DrO
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 10:02 am:

Aileen, here are two movies of a trotting horse lame at the RF. They should download automatically if you click the links. They're small and safe to download (they require Quick Time Player to watch).

https://cal.vet.upenn.edu/lameness/movie/lmside2.html
https://cal.vet.upenn.edu/lameness/movie/frlgood.html
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 10:08 am:

Here's hoping it's muscle related!! Since he did it at the same point in the arena for the most part, I'm going to hope it was the sand depth that made his shoulders work harder, so he was resisting. He does have huge knots behind both shoulders.

It rained yesterday...AGAIN...so my arena is pretty packed. I'll see how he goes after the massage and report back.

Thanks Dr. O!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 10:53 am:

Those are great videos Christos, thanks for posting those! He doesn't resemble either video...but they are very educational.

Last month it could have been him in the second one though.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 6:01 pm:

Massage didn't help much, he was much happier and I didn't warm him up...the therapist thought it was in his foot still, not the muscle. She mentioned his tendons are very tight on both the front feet and attributed that to the wedge pads put on 2 days ago.

I have a call into my vet regarding his very tight tendons on the front feet, but he won't be in until Monday. I'm assuming not to ask my horse to do anything, but give him access to turnout...am I right?

Should I keep his movement limited or let him do as he wishes? So far, no stupid actions on his part.

Maybe I should have started with "Do I even need to worry about this?"

Thank you!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 9:24 am:

The vet who diagnosed the ringbone called and left me a couple of messages again. He said he was looking at some xrays the other day and came across Brave's. He said that "you could not see the ringbone on the cd I gave you, so the other vets would not have seen it, but it IS there. I enlarged the xray and was able to see it." He said he is still learning how to manipulate the software -- Let me note that he has also looked at the xrays from the cd when I informed him of the other opinions and he said "yes, he does have it, it's as plain as the nose on your face" --

My initial reaction was to call the vet I'm currently working with (sidebone/new shoes) and ask for another appointment to xray his feet ONE MORE TIME! Geesh.

I spoke with my trainer, and she said that she feels that the diagnosing vet is trying to cover his 'you know what' and to just wait a week and see how the new shoes do.

Thoughts? Please?
Member:
Dres

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 9:41 am:

Aileen, wait a week... or that is what I would do... My uncle an old time breeder, since retired to a life of just watching us youngsters... used to tell me... TIME , if the horse is going to heal he will need time... IF the horse is not going to heal., well then, you will know in TIME.... .

Boy I do understand what you are going thru , I am with my gelding as well... at this point tho after more x rays etc... I am in the frame of mind that my boy will be my back yard ride.. I will enjoy him in my arena and only ask him to do what I think he can do comfortably, show season is out of the question... There is a point when I have to say WHEN...

I do sympathize with you ... its not a fun place to be....
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 11:16 am:

Thanks Ann, I was going to clean all his tack today -- thinking I'd at least be able to walk him around soon -- and I just can't bring myself to do it now.

My dilemma right now is: If it is indeed ringbone, would running around hurt him worse. He would absolutely hate to have to start back on stall rest!

This horse has my heart, so he has a place with me whatever the outcome...I just wish I knew what that outcome is! If he doesn't come sound in a week, I guess another full lameness exam is in order...
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 12:10 pm:

Aileen, it does take awhile for a horse to adjust to even small changes in angles, pads, and any other corrective shoeing. I'd also give the horse a little time. With a heavy, wet arena (we have one,too!) a horse has to work a little harder, which might even account for the head being up in certain areas.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 1:45 pm:

Aileen, clean your tack and maybe get one more horse :-) so that you can ride /play with another while one is on the mend :-) :-)

I have several to deal with, oh ,.. but then sometimes they are ALL OFF.. ok maybe that is not the advice you wanted..

I am not making light of your situation by any means... I am in the same boat as I stated above with my gelding...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 10:59 pm:

Ann, you are very sly --

I know the both of you are right...it's just so frustrating for me to not know...guess it's just another life lesson, really. My horse is my therapist you know
Member:
Dres

Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 10:39 am:

When i found all the ''issues'' with my gelding I was devastated, depressed for months.. he is my pride and joy... he was born when we were having huge problems with my son and thus the horse became my therapy, I do understand...He to, the horse , not the son :-(, will have a home with me forever... and for now.. each day I ride him now I am thankful for just that...

hang in there, your boy will be fine...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 2:28 pm:

Thank Ann,

You know, I was just thinking about this some more...yes I know, but it's raining and I don't want to clean the house

On the message he left me Friday, he stated that the ringbone was on the outside of the right hoof directly at 3 o'clock - he could see that on both the February and April xrays after enlarging them....well, when he diagnosed it in February, it was at 12 o'clock, directly in the middle of his hoof at the coffin joint.

Go figure.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 6:44 am:

Aileen I am confused or did I misunderstand: your horse is currently not bobbing his head at the trot even when turning a circle...right?
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 10:35 am:

Hi Dr. O,

When on the lunge to the right, he did not appear to be bobbing his head. When he gets to a certain point in the arena - he does not do it the entire circle, only a few strides - his head goes up and he's definately uncomfortable - whether he's lame or not, I have no idea - he does go very well to the right at the canter. But of course I'm picking him apart because I don't know what's wrong -- if anything.

When lunging to the left, his head stays level throughout the circle. He is not dragging his nose anymore, vet says that dragging his nose meant it could be hind lameness and asked the farrier to fix that, which she apparently did.

Once the rain stops, I'll check him again and see if he's improved...hopefully tomorrow. I'll let him warm up first, that may make a big difference.

On the xrays, I enlarged them and compared the right to the left foot. In the space between the sidebone and the coffin bone, it was not clear space as it was in the left foot, there were small bits of white here and there. Could the vet be talking about this? If so, is this ringbone or just calcification?

Thanks for putting up with me Dr. O! I should thank everyone else too!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:54 pm:

He's better, not 100%, but he wasn't AS uncomfortable as he was a few days ago! He was still raising his head and saying HEY that HURTS! With a bit of a buck and evil stare :D

But I can definately say that he wasn't head bobbing and he didn't take a lame step.

I need to do research on tendons in the foot...how to rehab back to 100% work. Can you point me in the right direction Dr. O?

I don't know if I should just let him wander around the pasture -- if I do that he'll never lose any weight and I know this is hindering him -- OR if I should just do 10 minutes of walk/trot mostly walk for a week, then increase the trot or WHAT...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:00 pm:

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:04 pm:



He has fat between his ribs, behind his shoulders, and on the tailhead. Everyone keeps telling me how fat he is.

In all fairness he does have a huge barrel, but ummmmmm...not that huge!
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:53 pm:

Hi Aileen,
Brave looks as sleek as butter. Your pasture is to die for according to a horse. If you were to cut back on some calories, I would start with the concentrates. I have been advised by my vet on the pitfalls of an overweight horse and joint problems. It is best to keep him on the lean side, but not undernourished. You may need to restrict the spring pasture. You won't accomplish anything by starving him of needed nutrients, but I do think a bit could come off.

I understand that cameras and their lenses with some funny focal length configuration can make things look fatter or skinnier. My camera does make things look skinnier.

What I am seeing on my computer screen is that he is heavy in his belly and hind end.

Keep going with this

Susan B.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:10 am:

ahhh your pastures look like mine NEIGHBOR... I try to keep my horses lean thru winter.. I know most fatten 'em up... but the pastures are so lush in the spring and I know they will gain when I open up the pastures, and when I do they are being work so I usually don't worry so...I agree take away any grain or? from his diet..My guess is that adding weight like with us humans can't be easy on the joints or other tramas our horses are having...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:26 am:

Thank you ladies!

He's 15.3, I think 16 hands now with his new shoes :-), the last time I weighed him it was last year and he was 1140. He has fully shed out and has incredibly short spring hair...What you see in the picture is what you would see if you saw him in the flesh.

What he gets now:

3 hours grazing in the am
3 pounds oat/wheat/rye mix and timothy hay
2 cups oat pellets in his pasture pal
1/2 cup oat pellets and 1/2 cup racehorse oats for his supplements

In the evening:
1 hour grazing
4 pounds oat/wheat/rye mix and timothy
4 cups oat pellets in his pasture pal
1/2 cup oat pellets and 1/2 cup racehorse oats for his supplements

Good quality hay is rare these days. I'm hoping to find some good quality (ie no mold) orchard grass this weekend. I think that may help as well.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:03 am:

Aileen, he looks GREAT!! He could loose a litte in the middle and I wouldn't let him get heavier, but he looks so healthy! Your pasture IS to die for....it's so lush. Just keep an eye on his weight and make sure he's getting all his minerals, etc. So glad you had the patience all this took. It looks like it was worth it.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 2:40 pm:

Beautiful horse, Aileen!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 3:56 pm:

Thank you both...he's definately worth the heartache. Just seeing him graze - and able to be a horse - just makes my day, everyday :-)

I think I'm going to go ahead and do very light 10 minute workouts. Mostly walk, with just a little trot to start.

I'm breathing a huge sigh of relief that at least progress is being made. Thanks again to all.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:20 am:

For a rehab schedule on soft tissue injury see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Treatment Methods » Rehabilitating Injuries to the Tendons and Ligaments.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:40 am:

Thanks Dr. O,

He was even better last night, but after reviewing your article, we'll just keep it at a walk for now.
Member:
9193

Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:43 am:

Hello All,

I was reviewing the posts and in particular wanted to respond to Aileen and LL regarding the protocol on rehabilitating injuries to the tendons and ligaments.

Our Justin had subtle on/off lameness/stiffness issues for about 6 weeks. After 6 weeks of trying to figure out what the problem was including hock injections, rest, bute, checking for saddle fit,
cutting back on work, ect.. I got an appt for an ultrasound to check his front leg ligaments and see if he might have a ligament problem.. The vet who did the ultrasound is Dr Carol Gillis whose protocol is featured here in HA.

I had read the protocol before, but didn't read the author's name until I came back from the ultrasound with Dr Gillis's recommendations for Justin's rehab. I decided for fun to compare the protocol I had been given by Dr Gillis with the one in HA and quickly realized that I was already familiar with the program!

We are in our third week of handwalking for 35 minutes a day with 5 minute increases every two weeks..

She was friendly, concerned, informative, helpful, and I feel blessed to have someone as knowledgeable as her to help me help my horse get better..She specializes in tendon/ligament injury diagnosis and rehab. Here in the SF Bay Area, she is known as the "go to" vet for ultrasound if you have a leg problem. When I was there, she had eight horses to see that day.

Thought this might be helpful for folks interested in following the protocol..

Good Luck to Aileen and LL..

Smiles,
Debra
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 6:29 am:

Thanks for the background Debra. I have not met Dr. Gillis but was at her presentation in 97 to the AAEP. I was so impressed with her logical and progressive rehab protocol that we use it as the basis for treating just about any supporting soft tissue injury. It is nice to know a little about the person behind the method.
DrO
Member:
Frances

Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:32 am:

Thanks Debra for the response. It's good to hear such a positive report of Dr. Gillis - the rehab protocol makes a lot of sense, and I'm determined to follow it as closely as I can. Just not quite sure what point we're at (right at the beginning I think), and I'm hoping DrO will be able to see enough detail in the down-sized ultrasounds to set me straight.

Tell me, are you handwalking in an arena, or out on the trail? If you're not lucky enough to have firm smooth paths to follow, or a calm horse to lead, the latter seems fraught with problems, although a lot more interesting than plodding round and round!

All the best,

Lynn
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:44 am:

Hi Debra, I honestly don't know what was wrong with my horse, so I'm rehabbing him as if it was a muscle/tendon injury...just in case. I have heard of Dr. Gillis, very reputable vet.

We are in the arena, we have a lot of steep hills here, so we're stuck for a bit.

Good luck to you Lynn and thanks again Debra.
Member:
9193

Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:33 pm:

Oh, it is so frustrating to try to figure out exactly what the problem is..

We have two vets that come regularly (twice a week) to our barns to do barn calls and if you are lucky you can snag one of them to just give a quick once over if you have a concern or question. I made an appointment with the one vet that I knew covers the racing T-breds at our local track. He recommended a thermography evaluation and then the ultrasound exam.

I had never heard of thermography. It is a way of determining levels and areas of inflammation by measuring the amount of heat present in the tissues. Thermography cannot tell you what is wrong or what exact tendon/ligament is injured, but it can show where areas and/or levels of inflammation are present that cannot be felt with just your hand. It is another diagnostic tool that is available to help pinpoint problems that seem to have folks scratching their heads.

The technician that scanned Justin goes to the track almost daily to do scans of the legs of the T-breds to check if any of them might be developing inflammation that would be unnoticeable until the horse started showing lameness symptoms. Several of the larger jumping/dressage barns have him scan their horses on a regular basis to check legs, hocks, backs ect. to evaluate and monitor levels of developing inflammation in problem areas.

I am not promoting thermography as an answer to problems, but I thought folks might be interested in other tools out there that might be of interest to them to check out for their particular problem.

I would be curious to learn of Dr.O's thoughts regarding thermography.

To LL, I will respond to your question at the end of your post to keep this one from taking a major diversion from Aileens thread.

I wish the best for you and your Brave, Aileen

Smiles,
Debra
Member:
9193

Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 4:37 pm:

Your Welcome Dr O,

I have found this site incredibly helpful since I joined over a year ago.

I am back into horses after a 30 year hiatus and I am amazed at the amount of information regarding the mind, body and spirit of horses that exists today. I especially enjoy reading and learning how horsepeople all over the country and in different countries deal with the same concerns and deal with different challenges like weather, lack of vets (you can just about trip over a vet in my neck of the woods) feed, training (ect). I am also touched by the dedication that so many of the members show to their horses.

Thank you for enabling a terrific resource and guide.

Debra
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 7:16 am:

Now you got my face red Debra. You sum up the use of thermography quite well above: it can localize "hot spots" for further evaluation.

The use of thermography to help predict soft tissue breakdown is fairly logical in race horses where studies are showing a gradual loss of function and increasing inflammation of the tendon prior to a catastrophic breakdown. In the past this was the trainer's hand and thermography MAY be more sensitive and certainly provides a less subjective evaluation but on the other hand the trainer can monitor the legs in a brief exam and repeatedly throughout the day. For more on the strengths and weaknesses of thermography see the article on Diagnosis of Lameness.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:01 am:

Hi Dr. O,

I was just reading your post on LL's thread...do you feel that the 3 degree pads could be detrimental to my horse? Especially seeing as how we don't really know what was wrong?

My first thought is if it's working, then don't change it, but I have to ask...Thanks!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:46 am:

When in doubt always balance the foot bu some hooves need a wedge to balance it. See the articles on ap balance for more on this.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:42 pm:

Thanks Dr. O!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 19, 2005 - 8:45 pm:

Vet came out today. Brave was sound...of course.

He would not take ultrasound nor xrays of the knee and rf. He did check his tendon and said it was incredibly clean and he felt his knees and said that they also looked and felt clean, not knobby... I told him I was tired of him being off and on lame and I wanted a reason, please give me something I can go on.

He said that he felt it was Brave's deep digital flexor tendon that was stressed over the years due to bad shoeing. He said that he loves the way his feet look now. It may take a long while for him to get back to normal, but that we are definately on the right track.

So...what do you think? I'd love to take him to a clinic that would gladly do all the diagnostics, but with my luck, he would be sound that day.

This vet wants me to check him daily for soundness. Not work him, just trot him out each way and monitor what leg he goes off on...etc. daily. He gave me the distinct impression that he's afraid Brave is navicular bound.

I'll post pics of his feet later.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 19, 2005 - 9:01 pm:

Front view

Three weeks after being shod.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 19, 2005 - 9:04 pm:

side
Excuse the mess!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 19, 2005 - 9:07 pm:

Before rim/wedge pads.

What do you all think? I can't remember when this was taken...but just to give you a before and after. The vet said he has/had severely underslung heels and it was putting pressure on the DDFT - which is he says the most likely cause of my horses' problems.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 19, 2005 - 9:12 pm:

I am no vet, but it seems that you have left no stone un turned.... its time you get on your horse and start enjoying him... start out slow , walking and supplying, building his top line and flexibility...for a couple of weeks, then do some light trot work on the long sides of the arena... then begin the canter work... do it all slowly , stress free...
In this heat , I am thinking he will be a good boy for you...

Looking at the photos of his hoofs, it seems he has the beginnings of a flare on the inside wall..


On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 19, 2005 - 11:59 pm:

Thanks Ann, yes...he is the flare king... two weeks after being shod it had already started. He would have flares when he had the poly shoes on in just one week. His feet today were at 53 degrees in the front and 55 degrees hind...the vet was very happy.

Vet said to keep him on this prescription/schedule of 3 degree wedge rim pads and to trailer the hind feet even more than she has. His pasterns are low. The farrier should call the shots on his feet from here as long as he's improving. At first he said to do some light walk work u/s with bute, but then the more we talked about it, he said to wait one more shoeing before I get on his back. I asked him to recommend a chiro and he did, though with the disclaimer that it may not be helpful.

My gut keeps telling me to have his knees xrayed.
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 12:49 am:

Dear Aileen,
In viewing your xrays, I am wondering if the nail closest to the apex of the (I don't know the exact name) bone, in the right front is supposed to be that close to that bone. Do you know Dr.O ?

The hind looks too short. The front right has a longer toe and higher heel. The left has a lower heal and a more rounded toe. It may be the photo but they look uneven to me. I have been through 3 shoers in six years. All with impeccable resumes. Go figure. There is a Farrier College/Hoof Hospital in Salinas, California. I have heard people trailer in from different states all the time just to get a horse shod correctly once. Then a good farrier can follow the balance of all 4 hooves.

Brave is gorgeous. I do agree with the others, he could lose a little in the middle. Especially during this tremendous summer heat wave. All of the top trainers keep their horses quite fit. Although photos do add weight to any image.

Good Luck!!

WTG
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 12:53 am:

In looking at your pasture photo, are you in Malibu at White Cloud?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 7:36 am:

WTG since the radiographs are 2 dimensional and we only have lateral views you cannot evaluate the nails positions with respect to the bone. For instance the nail could be tapped to the outside of the foot and would have the same appearance.

Ailleen the angles, distance, and low light make evaluation difficult. Better would be to maintain the distance but to telephoto in just a bit to the point where you get distal cannon, fetlock and hook. Flash or outside with the sun behind you will improve the lighting. Also the closer the camera is to the ground, to avoid foreshortening, the better.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 10:30 am:

I will try to do as you ask Dr. O, my digital camera doesn't have a zoom but I'll give it my best shot.

WTG, thank you..he is actually losing the fat pockets by his tail dock and there is no longer fat protruding between his ribs - but still hard to feel the ribs ...but still a bit of fat behind his shoulders. Next hopefully his belly will go down a bit :-)

No, not Malibu
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 6:17 am:

Try to get a bit closer and closer to the ground Aileen. The reason why zoom is better is that some cameras have a somewhat longish minimum focal length.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 8:58 pm:

I'll try again tomorrow...of course I had to run out of batteries.

On a good note, he was sound yesterday and today - so that makes three days in a row...none of that "ooohhh that hurts" it was more like "oohhhh that's gonna hurt...oh wait it DOESN'T!" look on his face...gotta love expressive faces :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 3:31 pm:

Ok, here we go, hopefully these will work...

rf
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 3:37 pm:

He's due to be shod July 28.

front
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 3:40 pm:

lf
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 3:43 pm:

hind
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 3:49 pm:

Here's a full shot of him...he is losing just a little weight, at least his fat pockets are going down.
conf
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 4:19 pm:

Forgot to add that yesterday he was not head bobbing lame, but I could tell it hurt him on the circle to trot on his rf.

Today, however, he was just fine.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 8:24 pm:

I am no expert, but he seems to have to much toe, the flare bothers me as well... I really can't see his heels... but one shot looks like it is under run... also the hoof with the white is that a ring from his cornet grown out..? Don't see any other rings tho.. ? Or is it a blemish on that hoof..?

Aileen he IS still a bit on the chunky side... :-)


On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 9:18 pm:

but but but...I can finally see his spine! I'm crossing my fingers that his muscles have not all atrophied and are hanging around his belly.

hehehe..yes I know, but at least he's making a little progress. There isn't anything to eat in the pasture, so hopefully he'll really start to lose weight now.

The good news is I was wrong when I said he was shod three weeks ago, it was the third week in June...I had someone hold him for me, so I forgot when it was. So maybe he didn't flare as quickly as I thought previously in these shoes.

He's long right now, but at the "correct" degrees, per my vet...and since I've had such wonderful luck lately, I thought I'd give Dr. O and all of you a shot at giving your opinions :-).

On the ring...You know, I never noticed that before, in the picture I guess it does look like a ring...I've never really seen one. The vet didn't say anything tho...so, if it is a ring, does that mean that we are doing something right if it's growing out? Or does it mean we're still doing something wrong?

This will be third time he'll be shod with 3 degree wedge rim pads in the front. Does that make a difference? I know this is a process....
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 10:07 pm:

I agree the main thing wrong in these photos are that the foot is very long. I really cannot make out a ring but for more them see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof »
« Poor Horn Quality: problems with the wall and soles.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 11:27 pm:

Thanks Dr. O...breathing a sigh of relief...

Oh and I went down and looked and I don't think it's a ring either...he has weird coloring on his white hooves.

Here is a picture from November 2003.

I don't know if you can blow this up...but on all four feet he does have heels. Can any one take a guess as to whether or not I've ruined the poor guy's feet forever by picking what I thought were excellent farriers?2003

and yes...you can clearly see he can stand to lose more weight compared to his most recent pic :-)
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2005 - 1:04 am:

The toes of your horse's feet look a good length in your post #876, and too long in #877. I agree that they look long in post #888, but the pastern angle looks better in #890 than it does in either #876 or #877. I haven't kept up with the history on your horse, Aileen, so I may be asking a question to which you have all ready give the answer, but have you ever done the Natural Trim on your horse (Pete Ramey style?). I have studied and have been doing it on my own guys . . . what a nice looking hoof I get, and they hooves STAY nice with no need of shoes . . . and we ride on lots of gravel here . . . probably similar to what you have in your area.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2005 - 10:32 am:

Thanks Holly,

Yes, I've tried barefoot, I'm pretty sure that's what started this whole fiasco. Granted I just had the farrier do the trim, not a barefoot trimmer, so that was my first mistake... I didn't know any better.

Now, my horse needs the support of shoes. I asked my vet last week about putting him barefoot again and he just about blew. He said NO. Not this horse.

The thing I'm really curious about - I've been reading about the High Performance Trim- is the fact that barefoot horses don't have any heel and they have long toes. My horse needs his heels and he needs his toes short. I don't think barefoot would work with my horse at this time.

Everyone is really quite confused since they all (4 vets, 4 farriers, etc) say he has great feet.

I would love for him to be able to go barefoot, I just don't think it's feasible for him.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2005 - 12:36 pm:

I'm not familiar with the term or technique called "High Performance Trim," but I do know that long toes are not good . . . and that when the natural trim is correct, my guys' feet have low, wide heels and short toes. I understand that the pastern/hoof angle should be the same, and since you have all those x-rays, the farrier has a better clue than some farriers do about how to obtain and maintain that angle.
Keep your chin up. :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2005 - 3:44 pm:

Yes, he really started improving once the farrier saw the xrays. I'll see what I can do to post new pics after the farrier comes. I need to find someone to hold him so he doesn't step on my head

Thanks Holly!
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 26, 2005 - 11:51 am:

Aileen my farrier does a barefoot trim for all my horses and he keeps the toe short and squares it off for me. My guy is really good about keeping the angles right but when in doubt pull out a angle guage they are quite useful.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 26, 2005 - 8:42 pm:

Hi Cheryl, yes...I'm going to buy my own. My current farrier will do anything I ask (on behalf of the vet), but the few before her would not.

I won't be talking about barefoot for my guy, but I am more than willing to learn more about it for future reference!

He was sound last night ...even with though he had a rodeo the night before... GOOD sign. During this fiasco, he's always been off the next day if he gets silly.

Here's to hoping he's sound when I check him later...phtu phtu phtu...and that he's sound after he's shod on Thursday...
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Thursday, Jul 28, 2005 - 12:09 am:

Aileen, It would be nice to see the toes shorter, but the angle seems optimum from the x-rays. In my QH mare who has navicular synDrOm
( since mid-eighties ), rolling her toes made an enormous improvement by easing her breakover.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jul 28, 2005 - 9:37 pm:

Thank you Lee. The vet didn't say to roll the toes, I don't know why....

BUT! I can hardly contain my excitement here...phtu phtu phtu phtu

I didn't check him last night since the night before I couldn't get him to bring up his nose from the sand at the trot. The vet had said that if he does that, his hind end is bugging him. Since his pastern angles were so horizontal, I didn't want to push him.

The farrier got here today and I asked her to do his hind feet first. Then I lunged him for her. He was sound AND happy, even took off at a canter with no urging. He was NQR, but still sound. Then she did the front...lunged him again...WOOOHOOOOOO...perfect.

I am so happy!!!!! This was a huge test for his healing. Vet recommended chiro is coming Saturday morning, then he'll get a massage...then the saddle If he gives me "tude" we'll just do groundwork for a week...if he's happy I'll hop on...
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Jul 29, 2005 - 2:14 am:

Happy for you! I know how it feels, phtu, phtu, phtu....
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jul 29, 2005 - 11:16 pm:

Thanks Lee! Still sound tonight ....phtu phtu phtu...

My vet is out of town, but I can't wait to ask him how long he wants me to test him for. I can't help but feel that I'm pushing him too far too fast even though I'm not asking for a lot.

I promised my horse that soon we would just walk around under saddle for a long time before I asked him for more. He gave me a kiss on the cheek :-)

I know...I'm a dork.

I'll try for pics of his feet this weekend.
Member:
Frances

Posted on Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 - 3:08 pm:

That's great Aileen - really glad to hear it!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 - 4:43 pm:

Thanks Lynn! I almost feel guilty being so happy...I know you'll be here soon :-)

Chiro vet was out this morning. He was uneven in his hips, so she addressed that, and she said he was really stiff on the right side of his neck and to do stretches with him. He was relaxed and accepting of everything she did to him - with the exception of the neck on the right.

She felt his tendon and said it's possible it's the ddft, while he did react he didn't react much - She said that could be because it was such a long time ago or it could be any other ligament in his hoof of which there are MANY. She asked if I had him ultrasounded and I told her I tried but was not successful.

She said he's fat -- I said I know Told her what I was doing and she said I can't do anymore than that. She said that since he WAS in great shape in January, she wasn't going to look for any insulin resistance, etc.

She said as far as work -- she knows Dr. Gillis -- to use the perimeter of my arena at the walk and trot with a lot of transitions and not to let him canter if I can help it. She said it would be good to walk him under saddle for 10 minutes after the ground work for two weeks and see how he does.

I put the western and dressage saddles on him for her so she could check the fit and they both fit...so I'm ready.

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 5:11 pm:

front

Shod July 28
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 5:13 pm:

front side view
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 5:32 pm:

hind

My boy is still sound, but I'm not pushing him at all. I've talked to my old trainer and she said to let him call the shots, but if he wants to work harder to bring him back and make sure he goes gradually.

I was worried that he was getting away with attitude and she said not to worry with my guy. Let him have attitude right now, you want to be sure he's healed first.

I understand why the vets want him to trot more -to lose weight - but isn't the healing of tendon just a tad more important? I'm between a rock and a hard place here, because if he lost weight that would be weight his tendon would not have to carry.

He flings me attitude when I ask for trot to the right, but he is sound. No headbobbing and he is *right*. I know now that he's stoic and not a wimp (as I've thought for so many years :-(, so I have to be very careful.

Am I right not to listen to the vets?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 5:33 pm:

Forgot...phtu phtu phtu :-)
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 5:51 pm:

I still think the toe looks long in the front. Like the hind feet better, but if he's sound, Aileen, then you must be doing something right. Keep it up.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 6:16 pm:

I agree with you Holly, I really don't see much of a difference between the before and after pics. She only took off about a 1/4 inch that I saw.

I asked what she thought of his feet, she looked at me and said "they're balanced" with a satisfied smile. It has been a long road for her to get him balanced...that much I DO know.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 11:11 pm:

Gee, Aileen, I have to agree with Holly - I'd roll the toes in the front. Yeah, he looks balanced, but that might not mean comfortable. Easing his breakover in front would mean less stress on the tendons especially while he is overweight.

The 1/4" doesn't bother me at all, because you have a "short" time between shoeings in order to avoid the pain and stress that results in certain horses when they grow out of their optimum just shod condition.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 11:48 pm:

You make sense when you say the rolled toes would ease the stress on the tendon; however, it seems that in the last year when he was shod, his toes were rolled, and he was off a lot. But then again, I don't think he was *balanced* with rolled toes.

I'll ask what they think...Thanks!
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 10:50 am:

Aileen, although I agree that the toes look a little long in the front and he looks a little flared, why mess with it. I have seen many horses with feet that look like Brave's and they are sound.
You can check for wear and tear in the toe area between shoeing. If you find that there is wearing, you can be sure that he does need to have his toe rockered or rolled a little more.
I am happy to hear that you have a sound boy. I have also gone through the attitude thing with my guy and his lameness issues. It does work out eventually .

Susan B.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 11:24 am:

Thanks Susan, do you think I should listen to the vets, or listen to my gut as far as his workload goes?

I know they are supposed to trot a little to build up strength, but...well...I'm chicken. What if he goes backward again?

He seemed to get so much better when I just didn't touch him for a month...hence my concern.
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 12:33 pm:

This is where a good working relationship with your vet and farrier are very important. Each time Brave is reset or reshod you need to test drive the work done by the farrier and make note of any changes good or bad.
Also, when using the dressage saddle, you are sitting more towards his front. Western saddle, you are sitting a little farther back. See if there is a difference in his way of going alternating saddles.
Brave will tell you how far to push. Take it one step at a time, starting slowly. The idea is to keep him limber, but not sore.
I go through the same thing with Laser when he is off and just standing around. He can get a little resistant about going back to school after being on a vacation .
Given the nature of Brave's pathologies, it is quite likely that he will have some off days. Just make note of what you were doing prior to the soreness, riding, shoeing or just out in the pasture etc. You sure will get in tune as to what makes him sore.

Keep up the good work, I know this has been a long haul for you .

Susan B.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 11:18 pm:

Thanks Susan, great points on the saddle issue, he does have tight muscles behind his shoulders and whenever I curry him - especially the lower back (right behind where the western saddle ends) and shoulders - he pushes into me.

I know you're right on everything you posted...thanks!!

He came cantering in to see me tonight...then trot... down hill, hard ground, perfectly sound...stopped ever so politely in front of me and said Hi! where's my carrot!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 10:20 pm:

So, he's still sound...as a matter of fact, sounder than ever...

But...can you tell me what this is? I've never had an abcess burst on me, so I'm a little curious. He lives in bell boots and the pink scar above is over 6 years old (before I got him).


What is this?

what
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 10:24 pm:

Another thought...looking at the photo above. He's due to be shod in 14 days... but I think this shoe looks pretty small for him...
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 11:16 pm:

Can't really see the first photo as it is too blurry on my monitor.

I don't know that I've ever seen a foot shod this way (in the second photo). It seems he has no heel or support for his heel . . . Do I see a wedge pad? (If you all ready said he has wedge pads, sorry I missed it. I skimmed over all these posts quickly, and I'm sure I missed some things.)
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 31, 2005 - 1:46 am:

Aileen are you talking about a defect in his hoof wall that is coming from the hairline? It is really hard to see. But I want to agree with Holly about the heel support. I have 2 low-heeled horses like your guy, and have always been sure to have support extend way back. My previous (retired now) world-class farrier IMO, taught me that the shoe must extend beyond the centerline of the weightbearing column of the leg, not as easy to say as it is to see, but if Brave were my horse I would extend that shoe and pad back at least as far as where his unshod hoof would touch the ground. Does that make sense? My first thought of your photo is that it's a defect due to the pressure of that shoe coming up short. ALL just my thoughts, though, and I'm just one person with 4 horses, lots of books and lots of questions still unanswered, so take it with a grain of salt. And you say he's sound so what do I know?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 31, 2005 - 5:56 am:

I look at the photos and radiographs further up and then the photo at the bottom and see different appearing feet. I am wondering if it is some distortion caused by angle, light, and shadow but the feet at the bottom appear to have severely collapsed heels and under supported in the back. I cannot make out the problem area you refer to.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 31, 2005 - 10:31 am:

Thanks all,

It's the right front. There is a crack right below the coronet band. It looks sort of like a bracket. In real life, it looks as though something came out of there. That's why I was thinking abcess...or maybe gravel, since a few months ago he had another one on that foot that I saw a tiny piece of rock come out of.

He's on Farrier's Formula. The farrier said he's growing great -- a lot of foot, perhaps he needs to be shod more often or cut back on the FF?

I'll mention the heel support to her, and I'll request more frequent shoeing.

Yes, Holly it is a 3 degree wedge/rim pad. The vet prescribed it to ease stress on the sidebone...but it seems to also work to ease the stress on his tendons...whatever the reason...it did work :-)

ps, Brandi, all input is great input :-) Your post does make sense.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 31, 2005 - 11:00 am:

Aileen, whenever I see a horizontal crack below the coronet or part way down a hoof, I always think "abscess," and as mentioned in posts over the past few days, abscesses are extremely painful and cause very definite lameness. Are you thinking that all this lameness could be due to abscesses??!! Doesn't seem possible from all the vet visits you've had over the past months.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 31, 2005 - 11:28 am:

I know nothing Holly, that's why I'm here :-) However, wouldn't it be interesting if that IS all this was...an abscess. Oh and yes, if that is the case, I would be screaming holy he$$ :-)

Only the first vet (February) said that it may be an abscess, but then two weeks later ruled it out and said it was ringbone. If I remember correctly, only one other vet hoof tested him about 4 months later. I don't believe that he ever showed any sensitivity to hoof testers in the last 7 months. That said, isn't it ironic that this supposed abscess is on the outside right front...which has been his main issue?


ps Learn something new every day...I learned how to spell abscess!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 31, 2005 - 3:53 pm:

End of September 2004, he had gravel come out at the middle of his hoof. So 10 months later, there's another opening. He grew very little hoof from February through May or about 4 months this year. So there's 6 months...my friend just told me that if it was a gravel, it may make sense. She said it takes 6 months to grow a new hoof. I mentioned the hoof testers not evoking a response from him, and she said if it was in the hoof wall, it may not.

Thoughts? Am I just grasping at straws here?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 1, 2005 - 6:41 am:

Not at all Aileen, after all your horse is currently sound and I think you should continue to follow the recommendations of those you have come to trust that got you here. I am slow to suggest changes from these photos because I think the angle and lighting distort the way the foot looks. A good photo taken from the side as the horse stands square, taken with the camera as close to the ground as possible and far enough a way so that it includes pastern and part of the cannon would be interesting.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Sep 1, 2005 - 10:44 am:

I will try for pictures this weekend, thank you Dr. O :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 10:31 am:

Oh my...totally forgot about my promise for pics...I'll do my best to post some today.

Farrier said it wasn't a gravel...just skin...she was looking at me like *No...that's not the reason for his lameness*.

I forgot to ask the vet about it yesterday...duh.

Just wanted to update:

Brave is still sound (phtu phtu phtu) - just the hocks acting up - but that gets better with work...vet came out yesterday for fall shots and checked him, while he's incredibly out of shape, heavy breathing after the vet check, the vet said to keep doing what I'm doing, he's sound and looks great. I'll be able to add side reins after he's not huffing and puffing once he gets into *real* work. I've added a couple of inches of sand so it's pretty deep in my arena, but it should be usable all year round, regardless of the amount of rain we get.

ps...the vet said he's just under a 6 on the scale...at least I don't have to cut his feed back anymore!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 12:08 pm:

right front
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 12:10 pm:

Left Hind
Left Hind
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 4:58 pm:

Hi Aileen,
Did his hocks act up before or after you added sand to the arena, and worked him on that ground?

Same question about the huffing and puffing.

Susan B.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 5:22 pm:

Hi Susan,

More huffing and puffing after the sand...it's more work for him, and I'm making him work a bit harder too.

Hocks, no...it's a week before his adequan and it always takes just a little bit to warm him up. He's fine after 5-10 minutes...depending on the day. Here's a bad pic... it's hard to take good ones when you're at the end of the lunge line :-)



Trot
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 10:34 pm:

There are a lot of good and admirable things I can say about a women who can stand with her horse on a longe line in one hand and a camera in the other.

Judging by the picture, he seems to moving out quite evenly, although he is going uphill.

I might back off a bit on the harder work, because you have added some more sand to the arena. DrOp him down a notch until he gets used to the deeper footing and builds up the fitness for it.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Sep 26, 2005 - 10:37 am:

Hi Susan, while the arena is sloped, the picture shows it is more sloped than it actually is :-)

I've worked him every other day since he was shod on the 14th. I did not get the huffing and puffing until the vet saw him yesterday. The new sand came in on September 2nd. I wasn't going to increase the workload until the vet said it was ok. He did, so I did :-)

By the time he's stopped, I coil the lunge line and go to him, it's only a few more breathes until he's breathing normally again. His sides aren't heaving at all, I don't realize until I go to him that he's breathing hard.

I was actually kind of glad that he can work a little harder so I will be able to FEED him more eventually :-)

What I do is ask for 8 transitions. once he's done what I require, it's basically up to him. If he wants to keep going around I let him as long as he does it politely. If he stops, I walk him a few more times than we call it a day. So I basically let him call the shots without him knowing it :-) He's licked and chewed during and after every session. Be assured that I am being very careful...going between what the vets that see my horse say and what Dr. O's articles state...can sometimes be confusing because I don't know what happened to the poor guy.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 11:01 am:

Thought I'd update...He's still sound. Arthritis is bugging his right hind, but he works out of it in about 5 minutes. So we're at 3 months now without a head bob -- YIPPEE :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2005 - 8:40 am:

Congratulations Aileen!
DrO
Member:
Frances

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2005 - 9:25 am:

Fantastic, Aileen! This calls for a glass or two of the good stuff!
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2005 - 10:59 am:

Very well done Aileen .

Are you giving him a little bute for the hock flareups?

I am also encouraged to hear that the 3 degree wedge pads have made a difference. We did this with Laser about a month and a half ago and it took about 2 weeks to kick in. He seems a little off again so I expect we have some fine tuning to do.

I too will celebrate with LL and yourself with a couple of glasses of the good stuff .
Member:
9193

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 2:25 am:

I will add my congradulations to the above and throw in some chocolate truffles as an added treat!

Smiles,
Debra
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 10:43 am:

Thanks all!! I wish you could all join me. I have a bottle of Silver Oak I plan on opening and those truffles would go well with that! :-)

Hi Susan, he has no problems jumping around like a jackrabbit in the pasture, so no bute...just work seems to help. :-)

On the wedge pads, Yes, they do work! I had asked the vet if he would be in them forever, he said he will be in them for at least a year, until the underrun heel grows correctly so he can have optimum angles again naturally.

Thanks again! :-)
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 11:06 am:

BIG DRUM ROLL......TA DA!.

This is cause for a double celebration, do you realise that you have now hit 1000 posts?, and on such a good note too. . You go girl.

I think Dr.O should upgrade you to an advanced member.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 1:31 pm:

Oh heavens NO! I just have so many posts because my horse wants me to go to vet school and I don't have the time! Thank goodness for the good Dr. O and all of you ... without the support of this site and members I could have been turned into the looney bin :-) Thanks to all... and phtu phtu phtu...just in case :-)
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 5:53 pm:

Well just consider yourself in vet school, right here on the Horseman's Advisor .

When my vet comes out to look at my limping pony, she usually has a host of students with her. I have to keep my mouth zippered while she is going through an exam and teaching at the same time. That's because I have learned a lot from here.

Just tell Brave you are in Vet School
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 7:04 pm:

lol... I have to say I have learned a lot on HA through this whole fiasco, but I have discovered, now more than ever, that this passion of ours is a neverending learning process in all aspects. Thank goodness for Dr. O and all of you - I'm sure I'll be needing more lessons soon.

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 11:16 am:

Just an update. Yes, still sound.

Had to switch farriers because she could only get out at every 7 weeks. Vet had prescribed every 5 weeks. However she recommended my new farrier. New farrier stated that he should have FULL pads on, not RIM pads. Regardless of the threat of infection, he needed the frog support. He not only had underrun heels...but he now had crushed heels as well.

She put full pads on. He had his second appointment with the full pads on just a couple of weeks ago. Farrier said she thinks the wedge pads can begin to come down...Woohoo!!

I have the vet coming out before his next appointment to double check...Just to be sure :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 7, 2006 - 8:06 am:

Sounds good, be sure to give us a picture before and after the next trim/shoeing.
DrO
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 7, 2006 - 8:37 pm:

Oh, WOW, Aileen! Good work!!!
Member:
Frances

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 7:08 am:

Great news Aileen! And good thinking to have the vet out to check the beginning of the end of wedges ... "just to be sure". (Don't you find all this dealing with horses that have issues makes you think and double-think EVERYTHING?)

Lynn
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 10:47 am:

Thanks Dr. O, I will try for pics this weekend.

Thank you Lee and Lynn! He's being a perfect gentleman. We're not really riding yet, but I've been on his back a few times and I think he's ready :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 7:56 pm:

Ok, here we go...

These are after the new farrier trimmed him 12.16.06 - and before the shoes/wedges were put on.

Before shoes

Before shoes
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 8:01 pm:

Here he is today...

Today from the right

From left
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 8:05 pm:

I hope these pictures will suffice, I was in a hurry unfortunately.

But I had a lesson today and he was absolutely PERFECT. He gets apples today. I warmed him up at the walk on his back, then worked him on the ground, he moved out beautifully. VERY forward :-)




Full body
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 8:06 pm:

Toe looks much better, Aileen . . . although ;) can't really tell in the second photo . . .

After awhile, I bet the toe can even be taken back a bit more. Does the farrier bring the foot forward onto his knee (or stand) and rasp the toe from off of the front of the hoof? It's one of the things I have learned is okay to do, although some farriers will say it isn't good.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 8:27 pm:

Thank you Holly...I know bad pics...I just ran out of time...

She does bring the foot up to a stand and rasps it.
Here's yet another bad pic from the front...
From the front
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 9:19 pm:

He does look much better, Aileen. He looked so uncomfortable before with totally no heel or wedge. Hopefully he will eventually grow his heels out. Front angle looks good. He deserves extra apples; so do you!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 9:46 pm:

Thank you Sara... I'm just waiting for Wednesday to determine exactly how much heel he really has. I honestly can't really tell...except that he's definitely taller! :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 7:36 am:

I too like the alignment created by the heel wedges.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 10:10 am:

Thanks Dr. O,

The more I look at the most recent pics versus the ones posted before, it looks like he still has a bit to go before the wedges start to come down.

I'll let you know what the vet says.
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 1:58 pm:

Looks really good Aileen . As you know I am the proud owner of a set of feet like that and the right support in the right places makes all the difference in the world.

I was a bit squeamish at first, about all the toe rasping, but it hasn't weakened the horn. structure in Laser's foot. He too, gets his foot brought up to stand for that.

Do you still have his hind feet shod?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 3:00 pm:

Thanks Susan, how are you!?

Yes, still shod behind...needs heel back there too... But at least we're getting somewhere :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 10:16 am:

Vet came last night, he said we could go down a degree in the wedge in front

He also said he's never seen Brave look so comfortable on his feet :-)
Member:
Frances

Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 10:24 am:

Congrats Aileen! That definitely deserves some liquid celebration!

Lynn
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 10:31 am:

Thank you Lynn, I am just so happy! :-)

Maybe I'll celebrate a little this weekend :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 9:56 am:

Should of phtu phtu phtu'd...

After a rodeo the other day he's off again on the right front when he turns...

Two shoeings of the 2 degree and he was still sound as ever...this rodeo is the only thing different that happened...other than a TON of mud :-( We are having an amazing rainy season...even with all the rock I laid down, there is STILL shoe sucking mud :-( He lost a shoe yesterday..left hind...great...so he's REALLY uncomfortable because he can't take any weight off the right front with his diagonal...Farrier's coming this morning tho...I LOVE her :-)

Left hind fetlock is warmer than the others...so I coldhosed and buted last night and locked him in til the farrier gets here.

Oh AND now we have the beginnings of spavins in his hocks (per vet)...I'll be making an appointment for hock injections.

Dr. O, please let me know if I'm doing the right things. Thank you so much!!
Member:
Dres

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 10:51 am:

FINGERS CROSSED FOR YA...

give that farrier of yours a warm cup of hot cocoa..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 3:28 pm:

Thank you Ann... She didn't want cocoa, so she got a BIG tip :-)

He's much better now that his shoe is back on...not sound, but not hobbling anymore...
Member:
Frances

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 3:33 am:

Hi Aileen

Glad Brave's more comfortable now - and really hope that rain lets up SOON!

Lynn
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 7:34 am:

If the hocks are the problem Aileen and rest and bute does not control the lameness this is the right thing to do. You should also reassess what level of exercise the horse can tolerate.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 10:36 am:

Thanks Lynn and Dr. O,

His hocks are definitely bothering him...but so is his right front...not headbobbing lame at the trot, but on the turns you can see he's definitely ouchy. He's been sound since August, it's now April...I'm thinking this could be a reinjury and when I take him in for the hock injections, I should also have his right front ultrasounded.

He hasn't been worked in months and hasn't been on a schedule for over a year...the rain has been nonstop it seems...just a small turnout (50' x 70') with rocks and mud (the mud has gotten worse over the past couple of weeks.)

We had the one nice day (the day he hurt himself) and my two boarders took their horses for a ride leaving Brave by himself...I'm pretty sure this is why he had a fit.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 12, 2006 - 10:51 am:

He's Better! It's too wet and icky to "test" him, but he's fine on turning...I'll be giving my vet the series of xrays taken last year, he'll get the hock xrays from my other vet and we'll go from there...

Thanks!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 3:53 pm:

Hi all,

He's still sound! He's down to flat pads now, we've gradually lowered him from the 3 degree wedge pads.

I've taken him off the Platinum Performance (he was getting fatter if you can believe that ;)), and put him back on Farrier's Formula and upped his cosequin to 6 scoops...no more hock issues...so no injection (yet anyway) He's now down to 1174 pounds from 1190.

I have another problem though, he has popped a pad twice in the last 3 weeks. Both times while working him. I'm guessing it's because I'm asking him to use his engine a little.

What can the farrier do to increase the breakover aside from rolling the toes? I am hesitant to roll them because it seemed last year when they were rolled he was dead lame, but not rolled and he was better. Could it be because last year the foot was not balanced and the roll upset the balance more?

Should I try to roll the toes again to increase the breakover?

Also, what do you think about pulling the flat pads? He's only been in them since May 11...but they are really not thick at all.

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions!
Member:
Dres

Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 4:57 pm:

Try larger bell boots, ones that hang down/ drag on the ground... i swear by em... all my horses have huge strides and this has saved many a shoe .. I put them on in pasture turnouts too...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spo
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 6:26 pm:

Thanks Ann,

He's in bell boots whenever he's not in his stall/run. They could be too small for him, but he's only a size 1 and they are large boots...we'll see if the extra large swallows him up :-)
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 12:34 am:

Hi Aileen,

I am glad to hear that you and Brave are doing well.

Could you explain what you mean when you say that Brave has popped a pad; losing a shoe?

Are you able to see if Brave has a heel first landing? You might have to get out your shutterbug skills .

Susan B.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 7:46 am:

There was no causal association between rolling the toes and the lameness Aileen, assuming they were done properly and did not expose a thinned sole to direct pressure. Besides decreasing stress on important supporting structures, it is an important technique to encourage your horse to grow better heel.

There is another technique and it is called rockering which consists of removing more wall at the toe so the horse does not stand on toe wall but support begins at the junction of the toe and quarter wall. The horse rocks forward onto the toe wall. Usually this technique is used as a adjunct to rolling or squaring the toe.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 10:21 am:

Thank you Dr. O! I'll tell my farrier. She has a great mentor that I'm sure will explain it to her.

Hi Susan :-) He steps on his front feet with his hind feet and grabs the pad...the pad then came out of one side of the shoe. Strange, I know, but what about my horse isn't strange ;)

He does not have a heel first landing, he lands square :-) Thank goodness...
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 5:45 pm:

Just a side note: I'll bet you'll be surprised, but I don't think your horse or any other horse lands square. Seems to me this is an on going argument, but I've seen video clips of horses at different gates, and they land heel first, if I remember right. Dr O.?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 6:32 pm:

hmmmm... you may have a point...I'll see if I can do the one handed lunging and get a pic tonight...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 9:45 pm:

Here are the boots he wears
boots

I don't know if you'll be able to tell from these but...
step
step
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 9:48 pm:

Off to cold hose the left hind...heat about 4 inches above the hock on the inside, but no swelling.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 6:59 pm:

I had a farrier series taken of Brave's feet so I could show her what's going on, now that he's been mostly sound for a while... If you don't mind Dr. O, could you take a peek and let me know what you see, if anything? He's still a wee bit off on the right front, nothing serious, only other person that sees it is my trainer.
right front
Front left
left hind
right hind

He also has windpuffs now on his right hind.
Member:
Amara

Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 8:11 pm:

hi aileen
just came across this post and had some time to read thru it... sounds like you're going thru heck with your horse! sure is a cutie!...
if you get a chance check out the videos by gene ovineck... sometimes wedge pads can be the root of all evil, and the attempt to fix the heel actually turns out to crush it more...also talks about the importance of a heel first landing and frog support...
good luck.. these long term issues are so frustrating...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 10:10 pm:

Thank you Melissa :-)

Here's a couple of pics, I think his heel has improved a little. He is now in a flat pad with SIZE 3 shoes! He used to be in a size one. The farrier used a rocker shoe (so he wouldn't have to rocker the toe, Dr. O -- thanks for the advice on the rockering) This seems to have solved the pad popping issue.

It bothers me to hear that he should be landing heel first, because he doesn't. It's either toe first or flat. The farrier hooftested his foot all over without the shoe and could get no response whatsoever.

right front
left front

On the barefoot, I am looking into it again, have actually sent these xrays to a barefoot trimmer that does performance horses, but will give it a TON more thought and will research the trimmer I choose thoroughly. I really do not want to put my horse through any more needless pain. I do appreciate the thought and please know it's not entirely out of my head :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 6:38 am:

Aileen from the angles I am going to guess that the upper ones are the fronts and the lower one the backs. I still think there is a bit much toe out in front. So unless the vet or farrier can find a reason not to I would like to see a bit of roll to the toe and more rocker. This will stimulate more upright heel growth.

The backs are odd with the whole wall rasped thin at the toe. While this leads to my goal of less toe out front it does it my weakening the wall all the way up the foot. I would like to see this accomplished as described above and not by rasping the wall all the way up the foot which may lead to cracks.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 8:49 am:

Thanks Dr.O,

My apologies, the xrays, in order
Right front
left front
left hind
right hind

The pics are both front feet. The first pic is left view, the second is view from the right. I did not take pics of the hind.

The farrier did square the back toes in another effort to eliminate the popping pad issue.

Just to clarify, the foot is not rockered. It is the shoe that is rockered. I will also let her know to try to roll the toe and see what happens. I hope once the farrier sees the xrays all will become clear to her.

One last question, where is the coffin bone supposed to be aligned? Parallel with the hoof wall or parallel with the ground? Is he aligned correctly?

I truly appreciate your input!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 11:44 am:

The back toes do not appear squared but instead the wall appears to be thinned proximally to distally to give a smooth appearance. I would prefer to see the toes squared without rasping the proximal wall thin, making it prettier but weaker.

I understand about the shoes and the rocker Aileen but there still is not as much rocker on the shoes as I would like to see.

Though your horse does not suffer from founder Aileen there is a good discussion with images on the relationship of the coffin bone in the hoof capsule at, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 12:46 pm:

Got it Dr. O, thank you... I'll be meeting with her before the next appointment and will show her the xrays and your recommendations. She's only been doing this for 7 years, so I'm afraid she's never rockered a foot before, but she has great mentors.

btw, sound as a dollar last night. I can't wait until we don't get the one step back and we just keep going at two steps forward... Geesh.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 9:40 pm:

Reposting this from the B-L Solution thread to keep everything in one place.

He was sound yesterday, I even got an even tempo from him at the trot, something that has eluded us for a couple of years. Adequan still had not been given...

I'm going by the seat of my pants here...

Overview:
He had 6 months of pasture rest, vet's who saw him said not to confine him. We're doing 14 minutes, 7 minutes each way on the lunge 4 days a week. It depends upon how he's moving as to what I ask him to do. But July 9, he told me in no uncertain terms that he was ready to work So I took what he gave then ended it 14 minutes. When I ride him it's only 30 minutes at the walk (trot only a few straight steps if at all), sometimes only 10 minutes, I just see how he feels, but try to work him a little bit past his comfort zone so he does build a little muscle. After the wonderful work on the lunge he took a bad step in the pasture and limped a few feet, but appears to be sound no head bobbing or anything after those first few steps - it was his back left, I'm thinking remnants of the splits he did last week... it's been the right front for the last two years...could be compensation though.

btw, the navicular word is null...at least for now. Farrier used hooftesters on him two weeks ago and brought no reaction whatsoever without the shoe on.

Not sound at all tonight. Could even be bilateral. Head was straight up in the air most of the time at the trot, great walk tho and would rather canter...of course I stopped him. Had my trainer look at him and she thought it was his left front somewhere from his knee to his shoulder. He got his adequan shot tonight, I'm calling the vet tomorrow, see what he says then I'll make an appointment with Davis.

I asked my trainer if she thought that a tendon injury would be this hard to rehab...she just shook her head no.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 11:26 pm:

Talked to trainer some more... she said to just work him through it, do long slow warm ups and see what happens. I found huge knots on both shoulders when grooming him, so it is "possible" he's still sore from last week. Her gut is telling her it's either his sidebone (which of course is not the cause of very many lamenesses) or maybe he does have ringbone.

So we'll see happens for 10 days. Still calling the vet tomorrow to chat tho. He may tell me to bute him for 10 days and see if he gets better. That I will do, it's the long term use of bute I'm afraid of due to his stomach.

The only good news is that he's still a silly boy wanting lots of attention and is still at 1160 pounds down from 1190...only 40 more pounds to go.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 4:08 pm:

Vet just called. He said to see how he does tonight with the adequan, if he's the same, bute him and see how he does tomorrow, if he's the same, he'll need to come out and take a look at him. The bilateral lameness I saw concerns him.

I asked him if he thought I was incorrect on my assumption that the tendon injury should be healed and he said that if I asked him that before this, he would have said yes it should be healed, but now he doesn't know and would need to see him.

He also said that giving him ulcerguard the same time as the bute would alleviate any concern for the ulcers returning. Reading Dr. O's articles on ulcers...While he does have quite a large turnout, it is not irrigated and there is no more grass to speak of. I can't free feed him due to his diet, so the ulcerguard in combination with the bute eases my mind considerably.

Please think good thoughts for my boy.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 10:35 pm:

He was still stiff tonight so I made sure he got a long warmup, and he was better to the right, I got even tempo for a circle...to the left, he was still not good, rushing around with his head in the air (bobbing slightly) so I buted him tonight and will see how he is tomorrow.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 6:54 am:

When is the vet going to come out and see him Aileen?
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 10:15 am:

It sounds as if you feel he needs to be seen regardless of the results tonight, so I will call the vet to get on his schedule asap.

I do think the bute helped, this morning his cone, feed pan, and his personal muck bucket (toy) was outside his paddock...so he was playing a lot last night - hasn't played all week that I could see evidence of. At least mentally he's feeling better.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 11:54 am:

Maybe I misunderstood you Aileen, I though you posted you were going to have him out if not better then posted he was not better. Glad to hear the bute is helping but it sounded like you had a new issue and with all that has gone on I would at least speak again with him.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 12:19 pm:

I tend to be confusing lately, I apologize. It's actually good news to hear that you felt it was a new issue, because if it were the same I'd probably pull my hair out...

Vet wanted me to see how he did on the adequan, if not completely sound to bute him then test him again. He wanted to see him if neither made him sound. If I hadn't told him of the rodeo, he said he would have come out yesterday.

I am not able to test him to judge his lameness until I get home from work tonight, but just judging from his demeanor this morning at breakfast I think he feels much better.

I'm glad you posted because the vet is not available to come out until Monday. But yes, I will talk to him today. I'm sure he'll call me back.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 11:58 pm:

Yes, much better tonight! phtu phtu phtu...not lame, but stiff, worked out of it both ways ... Not a head bob to be found :-)

Vet was teaching classes, so had not gotten back to me yet...but I called and told them that he was better, they said since I did not bute him this morning, just last night, they felt that it may be he was just sore. I told them I would continue buting at night (while locked into just his stall and 24 x 16 run - this way he won't get too silly in turnout... I hope) to ease the muscle pain and to have the vet call me if he felt that would either be useless or not a good idea.

Has his nose to the ground during warmup, so I will get xrays of the hocks (most likely get them injected), and perhaps the knees ... my friend was here and thought he was over at the knee on the right. I'll post pics tomorrow or this weekend.

But but but....even tempo both ways tonight...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jul 14, 2006 - 4:12 pm:

Last night, long warmup again but ended up moving well. I asked for a little more work and he was happy to give it.

But vet's office just called. She called per my vet (he is out until Monday) and asked me to keep him on the bute through the weekend. No bute mon/tues/wed. I am to call them on Wednesday with an update of how he is with no bute in his system.

I asked her the question below and she just reiterated what she said above.

Is there still a question of his soundness 24 hours past the bute administration?

Thank you!
Member:
Frances

Posted on Saturday, Jul 15, 2006 - 11:42 am:

Hi Aileen!

I think it takes 2 or 3 days for bute to clear from a horse's system, and the older the horse the longer it takes.

Glad to hear of Brave's progress - hope he's still doing fine on Wednesday.

Lynn
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Jul 15, 2006 - 3:12 pm:

Thanks Lynn...I hope so too...phtu phtu phtu

I worked him first thing this morning to get a jump on the heat. While the rodeo increased, I also got much more movement and that line of muscle from his poll to his shoulder was definite, so he is working well I'm guessing.

I had to work him much harder this morning in order to keep his attention, I hope that's not a bad thing!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 1:00 pm:

I had a bioscan done on him today, she treated the hotspots with lasers. I thought it interesting what she came up with, he moved much better and easier after treatment and was sound.

Right front hot spots - green dots indicate hot spots.
right front

Right front inside and left front outside hotspots
right left hotspots

left hock
left hock


She thought he was a tad over at the knee on the left...maybe a 1/4 inch, but not enough to worry about. I too thought that horses were born with over at the knee, he never was before...

She witnessed him being an out of control idjit before the treatment, then she saw the dramatic difference in the calm horse in the arena after treatment.

Dr. O, can the two hot spots on his right front indicate hoof balance issues still? If not, what would this be? Tendon? Ligament? How should I proceed?

The left hock hotspots show he is definitely compensating for the right front still. He had four hot spots on his right shoulder, some on his sacroilliac (sp?), one on his right fetlock, etc., but combined were not as many as the hock, right shoulder and the right front.

She knows my vet well and I will be showing him her sheet showing his hotspots. But I'm just curious what you think...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 1:02 pm:

Here is a full body shot...and yes, he still needs to lose a lot of weight, unfortunately...



conf
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 7:45 am:

Hello Aileen,
I don't think the Bioscan is a legitimate form of diagnosis and therapy. My opinion is that it is not a valuable method of diagnosis and treatment but because no thinks the concepts of enough value to really run good double blind studies I cannot prove it so let's just call it very experimental. We have discussed this technique before so run a search on the discussions.

From the photo above I think his condition looks pretty good though from a different angle or lighting I might think different.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 10:47 am:

Thank you Dr. O for your input :-)

I will run a search on bioscans, but I did see a dramatic difference in his attitude and lameness. The time that passed between the two tests in the arena was no longer than 20 minutes - only working 5 minutes each of the two times, so not long enough to warm him up (usually 15-20 minutes). The first time, she noted he was 1.5 lame (on the scale of 1 to 10) (AND he almost ran her over twice while we were just talking - NOT like him at ALL), the second time, no lameness at all, he came out and trotted nicely and politely and gave her a kiss afterward :-)

I'm just saying that *something* happened, what happened, I have no idea :-)

Another thing to note is that while she couldn't get a hotspot on his foot, she did laser his right front heel.

Thank you also for your input also on his condition. I've run out of last year's timothy (almost straw), so for the last two weeks he's been eating 1st cutting timothy...lucious, green and soft ... I'll be watching his weight closely.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2006 - 10:23 pm:

Update . Last night he was extremely stiff even at the walk (basically the same as before the bute), but it was so dang hot, I didn't even try to work him out of it.

Tonight, still very stiff, but not as hot, so I worked him until I could see some improvement. Not headbobbing, it just looks like he's sore ALL OVER. Poor guy.

Vet's coming at 1 pm tomorrow to rule out anything serious (I hope) and see what we can do about his muscles if nothing is serious. He does have recent xrays of his feet, so that's good at least.

Farrier came over Monday and saw the xrays, I'm hoping that she'll bring her mentor with her next Wednesday when he is shod.

If any of you have had similar experiences with stiff all over horses, I'd appreciate some input :-)

Thanks!
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2006 - 11:21 am:

Hi Aileen,

My only experiences with stiff all over or body sore horses were either after a show where they worked really hard, or at the onset of flu-like symptoms.

Is your boy running a fever at all?

Good luck,
Chris
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2006 - 11:48 am:

Thank you Chris, it never even dawned on me to take his temp! Will do it today.
Member:
Frances

Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2006 - 3:32 pm:

Hi Aileen,

I had the vet out last week because my horse seemed uncomfortable at the back end (I put it down to the arthritis she has in the right hock and coffin joint). The vet said, though, that it wasn't that, but that she was very stiff all over, and particularly over the quarters, from being fed too much for the limited work she is doing.

He also said a couple of grass cracks in the RH hoof were probably causing some pain, as they expand with each step.

He recommended that her food be further reduced, with sugar beet cut out completely, and that shoes be put on her hinds to stabilise the cracks, and her work increased, with longer periods of trotting and, after shoeing, some cantering.

My trainer suggested that I also keep any weight off her back, so I've been "lunging" her (but walking with her so she's not doing circles really) for this week. Of course, she inevitably got very excited and cantered quite a bit, but this didn't seem to cause any problems (maybe because I was careful to handwalk her for 20 mins first, so at least her muscles were warmed up) . In the end it seemed simpler and safer to free-school her - something I never thought I'd be able to do again.

I don't know how much of this is of any help to you, but perhaps it's worth considering the feed/exercise ratio. I must say I've been very concerned about doing too much with my mare - and maybe I've ended up doing too little. Have to admit she's overweight too. Of course, every case is different.

Let us know how you get on!

Lynn
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2006 - 6:28 pm:

Thanks Lynn, good points to consider...my instructor thought I should work him harder, and to have this kind of response to harder work just was not right. He's 1174 pounds...went up ... dang it... I think it's because of the change from old hay to 1st cutting...He only gets 7 pounds of hay and 2 pounds of grass hay pellets per day.

Ok, Vet update:
He first checked for pulses, hoof tested, etc. and found nothing :-) and of course, he went better today than I'd seen off bute lately, but fortunately, the vet still saw the stiffness and understood my concern.

He took blood to check the muscle enzymes and will also check his magnesium level. He'll call tomorrow on the muscle enzymes and if they're ok to still work him lightly.

He looked over my feed ingredients and didn't believe that selenium/e deficiency was the cause.

He saw his hind end stiff moreso than the front, and moreso on the right hind. Did flexions and my horse DID NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. Extremely positive...squealing and hopping around positive ... I'll have my prior vet send him the xrays taken 3 years ago, he'll do xrays, then most likely injections.

He did say that lyme is a possibility, they've had a couple of cases, but he doubted it in my case. He also said PSSM is a possibility.

I think I can close this thread, I don't believe this is related any longer...thank goodness I'll only have new issues from here on out...phtu phtu phtu :-)
Member:
Djws

Posted on Friday, Jul 21, 2006 - 1:21 am:

Aileen-

Before you close this out....

What is phtu, phtu, phtu? I've seen it several times, and wondered. My mother always told me there are NO dumb questions, so I'm risking that she's correct, and I won't seem like a total idiot for asking.

I know I'm missing something here!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jul 21, 2006 - 3:15 pm:

Your mother is right, there are no stupid questions :-)

phtu phtu phtu is greek, we need Lynn here :-), basically something like "knock on wood" here :-)

Bloodwork came back normal...phew.
Member:
Djws

Posted on Friday, Jul 21, 2006 - 4:22 pm:

Cute! Thanks for sharing!
Member:
Frances

Posted on Saturday, Jul 22, 2006 - 10:20 am:

Aileen's right - phtu phtu is something like "knock on wood" but not quite - it's an imitation of the sound of spitting - so that you don't have to actually spit all over the place!

You might spit to ward off the evil eye after saying that someone or something is great/wonderful/bound to do fantastically/fully recovered etc etc, in case jealous evil spirits overhear and make awful things happen to this person or thing instead.

Great about the bloodwork Aileen, phtu phtu!
Member:
Djws

Posted on Saturday, Jul 22, 2006 - 2:20 pm:

LL-

I am superstitious so...I can appreciate this info even more! Thanks!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 11:19 pm:

Ok, asked the farrier to rocker the toe, she said his feet look great and that she didn't think it was necessary...I will say that when the rehab farrier saw his feet, his immediate reaction was that he needed to be rockered, but then once he had the shoes off changed his mind...so I don't know..

edited to add...shod yesterday..


Right front
right front

left frontleft front

front heels

front heels

front toesfront toes

So maybe this thread isn't closed...you tell me Dr. O.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 11:22 pm:

The hind feet...

Left hind

left hind

Right hind

right hind

Sorry the pictures are so cockeyed...it's hot still...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 6:38 am:

Well they certainly have chopped the toes short and though not attractive, this is your best hope of straightening out those collapsed heels. Keeping these toes short for the next year we will see how much correction we can get. I like the ap balance of the fronts and find it hard to judge the ml balance do to the angles of the images.

Are the rear hooves balanced properly front to back? It is hard to tell from the photos because the horse is not standing square.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 10:13 am:

Great! Thanks Dr. O, it's nice to hear we're finally on the right track :-) My farrier's mentor was not able to make it out but hopefully he will before the next appointment.

All feet are balanced :-) Sorry about the poor quality of the photos!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 4:29 pm:

No longer a mystery...Dr. O, the feet were not balanced. Had a farrier consult today. He is now standing properly over his foot. He changed his weight bearing on all four feet.

Right front: low heel, inside wall high and flared, inside heel collapsed and run under: prescription, square the toe and give more support behind.

Left front: low heel, inside wall high, outside heel collapsed and run under, inside heel collapsed and run under.

Pics show how he went about balancing his feet:

Right front- The white line is stretched considerably
Right front sole


Left front:
left front

Here is a pic of the right front heel, the two black marks are from before they took the shoe off, shows where the shoe stopped and the end of the heel:
right front heel

Right front side:
right front

Left hind shoe showed significant wear on the inside, he told me the horse is lame on that foot. Left hind has mild to moderate djd in hock (with spur) and stifle arthritis.

He was absolutely wonderful! My horse is now moving OUT, and comfortably. He told me it would take ten days to see long range effects :-)

Thanks Dr. O. You've been stressing for years now about how to get the horses' feet balanced, and I honestly thought I had. I should have had this guy out long ago.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 5:42 pm:

Aileen, Blake is the best.. Question? Does Brave how tender souls.? I know Blake is big on performance pads .. Has been for years, . just wondering.. Good news all around, take it easy on him still, there are some changes, its like you getting a new pair of shoes with a different fit.. takes some time to get used to...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 6:42 pm:

Thank you Ann, he actually kept the same type of pads he had on, and would have removed them had Brave had some sort of concavity, he was really flat footed. Laura thought he would have put wedge pads back on, and was surprised he didn't ask for that. Blake said that Laura was "so close" but that she shouldn't be afraid to take off the (underrun) heel. Blake said he sees that most often. He also said that by winter, he may be able to try barefoot again, but we'll see. That's a huge step for me to take and I would like to "really" ride next year!!

His hind feet were bad as well, but she did the same type of shoeing on his hind feet. I need to find some sort of feeder off the ground so he doesn't want to stretch his legs out to eat. So much for my "feeding as naturally as possible" theory (on the ground on mats).

It was really difficult to get him to stand square before the shoeing, after he did it all on his own :-)

Brave was definitely surprised at how quick the breakover was! It was a little funny to see the look on his face. But he's now a happy guy, and I just saw him canter a little in his turnout...hadn't done that for a while :-)

Blake said that in about three shoeings, he should stop forging even though he has long legs and a short back. I'm double bell booting him for now. He said to put a smaller bell boot on top of the larger one to keep the larger one from flying up during rodeos...I liked that tip :-)

I didn't ask for much, but what I did ask for Brave gave willingly and for how long I asked. Before he would take a few steps of trot and would not keep a circle. Today he did and happily :-) Only worked him about 3 minutes, just to see... I'm getting on his back for 10 minutes at a time starting Saturday :-) We're still doing walks.

Ya think I put enough smilies in here?

oh and phtu phtu phtu
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 6:51 pm:

AND he's landing HEEL FIRST :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 9:30 am:

That sounds great Aileen. Can we have some conformation pictures from the side?
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 11:16 am:

Sure Dr. O, I'll try to get some tonight.

Thanks again for being here!!
Member:
Frances

Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 11:19 am:

Sooo, mystery solved at last! That's wonderful, Aileen, and there's no such thing as too many smiles !
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 12:03 pm:

Thank you Lynn :-)

I should be careful, because something else may pop up!! But at least he's landing heel first, so I'm very hopeful that this will help him immensely :-) I believe, however, that this definitely addressed his stiffness problem.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2006 - 12:19 pm:

Let's give these a try, it seemed that everytime I tried to take pics, the good ones came out blurry, then I ran out of light... I am still a bit worried...

conf

Here's a cannon shot, that looks a little better, sorry about the shadows:

footcannon

They squared the shoe, left his toe hanging off the front, and left plenty of room for heel growth:

shoe
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2006 - 12:22 pm:

I'm looking for a floor feeder that I can mount 1 foot off the ground so he eats with his feet together. Preferably one with a base so he can't get cast under it. Any ideas where I can order one anyone?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Sep 10, 2006 - 12:02 am:

I ended up taking two oblong soft plastic tubs, put one upside down for a base and the other on top. Bolted them together, then bolted the top one to the wall. He throws some of the hay out, but at least his feet are even about 3/4 of the time while he's eating. We'll see if it makes a difference with the white line next shoeing.

I'm going to try to get better pics tomorrow.

Edited to add that Blake emailed today and said not to ride him for 14 days.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Sep 10, 2006 - 2:32 pm:

I tried it inside the barn this time, I used a mat to put his front feet on, do they look better?

conf

I'm having bad luck with the cannon shots...here's one more:

cannon right front

He did look at all recent xrays before he made decisions. Brave had no bute last night or this morning and he actually looks more comfortable, I think.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 11, 2006 - 9:41 am:

I think the ap balance looks pretty good Aileen and moving the shoe back should help the heels grow out better. Be sure to use the articles that describe how to judge proper balance and decide for yourself, you can be a much better judge being able to see the horse than we can looking at photos.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Sep 11, 2006 - 10:33 am:

Thank you Dr. O, I will print out the balance articles and leave them at the barn.

I'll post an update in a week or so.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 6:45 pm:

Vet came today to do teeth, fall shots, etc., and a lameness exam...yep, lame again all last week. Of course he was perfectly sound today except for a small hitch in his right hind that the vet had always noticed. Since it was cold then rainy last week and today was pretty much picture perfect in the low 70's, we're attributing his lameness to arthritis. I'm to continue working him adding 5 minutes a week. If he's lame, then bute and work. But no hills yet, so we're still stuck in my arena.

Vet said he's moving better than he's ever seen (granted he's only been seeing him for a short while, so has never seen him completely sound) and that his feet looked great. Blake will come out again for the third trimming with his new feet toward the end of November and I'll post more pictures then.
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 9:50 am:

Aileen,

I've been following this thread for awhile.

I had a similar experience with one of my horses; ongoing intermittent lameness with no clear diagnosis. Had a AFA journeyman farrier start shoeing him with excellent short term results, but eventually lameness returned.

I ended up springing for an MRI which showed extensive soft tissue damage that had never showed up on radiographs or ultra sounds. Yeah, it was bad news, but after years of not knowing what was wrong, I at least had some actionable information. You may want to consider it.

Best of luck,
Chris
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 5:52 pm:

Hi Chris,

With everything I'm doing for him now, it's costing me more than an mri would have :-) having an mri actually crossed my mind again last week. You said you had short term improvement... about how long did the improvement last and what did you find? Suspensory? DDFT?

I do think that part of this whole thing is my fault. I do know NOW that his feet were really bad and I'm finally learning what I need to do to keep him comfortable. We're experiencing more good days than bad now. It could have been a soft tissue, but the vet tells me that if it was a soft tissue, it would have healed by now. But I hear you on the mri, and that is next on my list if he doesn't stay consistent with his new prescriptions for his arthritis.

Thank you for your input :-)
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 8:47 am:

Hi Aileen,

The bad news for my boy was extensive tendon and ligament damage in both front feet. I posted the MRI results on this site in the spring if you want the gruesome details. The vet suspected that it was due to genetics since there had been absolutely no history of injury. Not unheard of in Quarter Horses unfortunately.

The short term improvement I saw from the $160 shoeings lasted about 6 months.

It's not your fault. Best of luck to you and your boy.

Chris
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 10:49 am:

Ok, I'll call the vet. He's moving REALLY well right now, so it won't break my heart too much since he is at least pasture sound. If I need to get another horse, it would be better to do it now, rather than in the spring.

I do thank you sincerely for your input. But I'm not going to read your thread... yet.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 10:19 am:

I talked to my friend who is basically a vet tech, and she said she wouldn't do the expense of an MRI yet if it were her horse. She was saying that since he gets very comfortable with adequan and hock injections, it's most likely arthritis induced, along with the feet.

I had asked my vet a few months ago about getting an MRI, and he said he didn't feel it was warranted. But I was going to bring it up again and see what he said, but my feeling is he'll say he's sound now, so no mri yet.

Dr. O, what are your thoughts on an MRI for my boy? Do you think I should press the issue? Does anyone else think I should insist on an MRI?

Chris, I did read your thread, I just want to say again how sorry I am for what you went through and thank you again for your input.
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 1:47 pm:

Aileen I am FAR from a hoof expert, but from the pic of your horses hoof above, it sure looks like he has the long toe underrun heel thing going.

Hank had a terrible time with lameness, until I got this straightened out (still a work in progress). His gaits went away to the point he didn't want to canter. I have a post in here shoeing bruised feet, goes on for over a year (still is actually). I wondered at one time if he didn't have arthritis the way he moved. Since getting his feet back to where they should be his gaits are beautiful again. We are now trying barefoot which is going better than I expected. Good luck
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 2:05 pm:

Thank you Diane, yes he has the underrun/long toe deal...The consultant had said "no wonder he's lame" ... and ... "no barefoot, yet. Let's see how he does first. Maybe by winter" I know it's selfish, but it's been two years of trying to figure him out. If he stays sound with shoes, I want to ride him. I do have plans for a barefoot trimmer to come out and consult with my farrier next winter..

Unfortunately xrays show definate changes in his stifle and hocks... but injections, adequan, glucosamine, and getting his feet corrected are hopefully the key. That's what I'm praying for anyway...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 4:49 pm:

It really depends on your goals Aileen. If you want as much information as possible not matter what the cost you should do the MRI. I think if perfectly reasonable however to wait until all other issues are dealt with and if there are still unexplained problems you could reconsider it then.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 5:29 pm:

Thank you Dr. O, my goal is to learn to ride dressage and at least get to first level before I'm 50. That gives me 7 years.

I just worked him and he's getting stronger in his hind end, good tempo, sound and happy to be working (blowing and licking and chewing). I think I'll wait, I hope I'm not wrong.

Thanks again, Chris for bringing it up. MRI is definitely next on my list.

phtu phtu phtu!
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 8:44 am:

Aileen,

Best of luck to you and your boy. I hope the current treatment does resolve his issues.

As Dr. O said, it really depends on your level of obsession with data. It took me 2 years to get the point where I absolutely had to know what was going on. I hope you don't get to that point, but it's good to know the MRI option is there.

Chris
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 11:21 am:

Thank you Chris. It's easy for me to have patience when he's sound...we'll see what happens.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 4:07 pm:

Ok, farrier said he was pleased with how he was moving, the hinds are doing great -- almost normal, but the fronts still need work, he put on 2 degree wedge pads to help his heel and squared the toe to keep the breakover. The separations are much better, but he's not aligned. Here are the sole pics.

Right front:


Left front:


Right rear:


Left rear:
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 4:51 pm:

Hoof pics:

left front:


right front:


right rear:


left rear (bad pic, sorry, ran out of batteries):


I am obviously concerned that he put the wedges back on. I'm also concerned about the left hind, his leg looked crooked to me. I asked the consultant and he said that's because his inside heel collapses, it will straighten. I'll try for more pics tomorrow if you think it's necessary.

Does this look good to you? Progress?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 6:20 am:

Aileen take the photos with the horse standing square and take each leg from the true lateral do not oblique the angle as it makes evaluation difficult. Zoom in so that you catch the foot pastern and lower cannon. If the background is light, like large amounts of sky, you should use a flash to highlight the leg.
DrO
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 10:56 am:

You may also want to try to put a piece of cardboard behind the leg as a backDrOp.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 12:18 pm:

Thank you Chris, if these don't work, I'll give that a try...He is sore, he did not want to stand square yesterday. He was a bit better today, but not comfortable, I buted him...

Right front


Left front


right rear


left rear


The consultant did say that the way he was shod before would increase the chance of ringbone over time with the joints taking all of the abuse -- not aligned... But he did make improvements all around, so he felt that was good in only 10 weeks... but I'm still worried.

I won't be working him until I see him more comfortable without bute.

Dr O, I'll be calling him back out if you feel it's needed. He wasn't this sore the last time the wedges were put on, from 0 degrees to 3 degrees, albight incorrectly. He's pushing the ground with his toes, not landing heel first... I know that could be due to the changes in the angles... but only 1 degree? The pad he had on before was basically a 1 degree pad.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 12:27 pm:

He also said he saw no evidence of lameness in the shoe (uneven wearing) on the left hind (that was there in September)... so that's a good thing...He's also now in a size 4 shoe, size 3 the last 3 or 4 shoeings, size 1 for years before that.
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 2:45 pm:

Gees Aileen a size 4 shoe seems awful big! My farrier (the old one) was heading towards a size 3 with Hank and he always took a 1 before. My old farrier said he had a big foot, when I asked him why he used to always be in a one, he had no ans. and basically yelled at me. Long story short, Hank is now back in a size one when he is shod. All the new farrier did was remove the flare and balance the foot, (rasped alot).
Member:
Dres

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 2:50 pm:

Does he seem to be a little low in the left rear pasturn? Like DrOpped?

You went from a one shoe to a four.. ? that is a lot of change in hoof size or iron??

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 4:03 pm:

Hi Ann, iron size... it's actually a european size 6 shoe... my jaw DrOpped open until she told me it was a size 4 here.

His pastern angles have actually gotten much better. He was horizontal at one time. He was standing underneath himself some in the above pics, my guess is to take the weight off the front. He's not doing that anymore. Just went and looked at him, seems to be just a bit better.



Diane, the consultant said the larger shoe enables his foot to expand. My guess is it gives them more hoof to work with and able to reshape, which holds true if indeed there is progress. I guess it's a process. His back feet are looking a lot more normal, I don't know what size shoe he has on the back. Take a look at his belly... guess who cut his feed back in the morning since he has some grass to nibble in the pasture... and guess who started eating shavings again...
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 5:16 pm:

Aileen, I don't know hopefully Dr. O. will chime in here. The old farrier always said he was letting Hanks hooves grow, so he could take off more which really never made much sense to me!

I still don't understand how the new farrier was able to go from a 3 to a one with out the horse being sore. I do understand putting a bigger shoe on to help the hoof expand (I think). A #4 still sounds awful big tho. When Hank was in a #3 His hooves were terrible looking. Funny thing was tho, when the farrier got done they actually looked o.k. and a week later they looked bad again.

It definatly is a process! Once Hanks feet got so long it took a good year to get them where they belong and we are still going thru the process.

He does looked starved and once again good luck!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 5:53 pm:

Aileen, the pictures are much better. Foot by foot briefly how do you think the hooves line up with the pasterns using the diagrams in the trimming articles?
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 6:59 pm:

First diagram:

The right front I think is right on.

The left front is not. A tad too long toe makes the line incorrect. And he has that bump on the coronet band. But I do know his heels are worse on this foot and he has a tad bit more toe than the right.

I think both the back feet are perfect. My concern on the left hind has diminished today. After seeing him on the mat, he is not crooked on that foot.

His long toes make him look distorted compared to your article, but that’s why I put pics up of the soles so you could see why he wasn’t cutting the toe back more.

Second diagram:

I need to go double check... I don't remember the fronts being correct, his lack of heel does not enable the horizontal line to "stay" horizontal. The vertical line is correct, however.

Both hinds are correct both horizontally and vertically.

I guess I need your reassurance that there is definitely progress being made and to just be patient and not look elsewhere... I trusted too many farriers, and they all did my horse wrong.

Thank you Dr. O!!!

Thanks Diane :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 7:14 pm:

Second diagram for both front feet:

Both horizontal and vertical lines are correct.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 11:04 am:

He is lame at the walk on right front...unless on bute. Very lame going down hills and turning to the right. I am so frustrated!!!!

The only thing I can think of, that is IF his shoeing is correct, is that he DOES have ringbone...because it. is. COLD. He's back to the way he was at the beginning of this whole fiasco :-( Granted he did have a rodeo while on bute, but I doubt it has anything to do with it because he was going SO well...even WITH rodeos prior to this...

I've emailed the farrier, he said this sounds normal...if more than 3 days it may be a hot nail. Will be calling farrier today and vet on Monday.
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 9:51 pm:

Aileen, I have to commend you on your persistence with this boy. As a horse owner with undying hope of soundness with an unsound horse, I know exactly what you are feeling. I think we need to start a support group for consistently unsound horses! Oh, I think this website is actually just that! Keep up the hard work...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 8:19 am:

Thank you Gwen, I hope you and your horse will do well. Yes, this site is a wonderful support group and a wealth of knowledge. :-)

Farrier came out last night and clinched the nails, he didn't even flinch, so no hot nails. She agreed it had to be the shoeing since he was off immediately after. The only thing we could think of was that the padding oozed out of the left front (not lame) but did not ooze out the right front (lame).

I told her I was thinking that he does actually have ringbone in that foot. She's calling the consultant to see if she should reset the shoe with a different kind of padding that is more forgiving.
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 9:47 am:

Aileen I see in your profile you are from Ca. I was going to suggest that maybe the ground froze and made his feet hurt more, but that doesn't happen there does it?

In his pics above something still doesn't look right to me, but I am not very good at this hoof angle thing. I hope Dr.O. comments as I am trying to learn as much as possible. In his sole shots isn't there flaring and a stretched whiteline?

I know 2 horses that I used the eqipak on had to have it removed because the farrier put too much in and every time they took a step it put too much pressure on the sole. I actually had to remove it myself as the horse was so lame. No easy chore, but once it was removed they were much better.
The next time the farrier applies it he used much less in front of the frog and that worked.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 10:43 am:

Hi Diane, we were at 32 degrees...yes, I know, not cold to most of you, but it's cold to me!!! It was very frosty, but I wouldn't say the ground froze. We were at 42 degrees this morning, and he's still off, so maybe it isn't ringbone after all :-)

On his right front, the white line is considerably better :-) The farrier was extremely pleased that his separations near the widest part of the foot are already mostly eliminated. I do know he was also pleased that Brave is starting to change. He measured 1/4 inch changes for the better on 3 of his feet. The left had not changed as much, hence the wedges. I'm not sure about the flaring. Which picture doesn't seem right? The only foot that seems to me to be in balance is the Left rear sole view.

Here are the sole pics of the hind from September, since I did not post them previously, you can see the difference in the balance. The black line near the toe of the foot is where the toe should end:

Left rear September


Right rear September


I truly thank you for your input on the pressure on the sole, makes me feel better. :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 11:39 am:

I was wrong, he did make improvements on his left front as well, here are the measurements in inches:

Right front September

Widest part of the foot:5 1/4
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe:3 3/8
Length- Widest part of foot to heel:2

Right front November:

Widest part of the foot: 5 3/16
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe:3 3/8
Length- Widest part of foot to heel: 2 1/4

Left front September

Widest part of the foot: 5 3/8
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe: 3 1/4
Length- Widest part of foot to heel: 2 3/8

Left front November

Widest part of the foot: 5 1/4
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe: 3
Length- Widest part of foot to heel: 2 1/4

Left rear September

Widest part of the foot: 4 3/4
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe: 3
Length- Widest part of foot to heel: 2 1/2

Left rear November

Widest part of the foot: 4 3/4
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe: 2 5/8
Length- Widest part of foot to heel: 2 1/4

Right rear September

Widest part of the foot: 4 3/4
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe: 3 1/4
Length- Widest part of foot to heel: 1 7/8

right rear November

Widest part of the foot: 4 3/4
Length-Widest part of the foot to toe: 2 7/8
Length- Widest part of foot to heel: 1 3/4

Sorry if this it too much information, Dr. O!
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 12:21 pm:

Aileen PLEASE take this for what it is worth. I am still trying to get a grasp on this whole hoof thing. On the rt. front pic from the side it kinda looks like he is set up to land toe first, which in turn leads to more stretching of the whiteline ( I think ). Does he land toe first on the rt. front? Obviously his heels are very under run and I KNOW that takes time to fix. Does your farrier roll the toe? That helped Hank alot, he finally started landing flat, and it is finally allowing his whiteline to tighten and his heel to grow more upright.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 2:30 pm:

Hi Diane :-) No problem, this is how we both will learn :-)

He was landing heel first (which I have learned recently is the correct way for a horse to land). I'm not sure that he rolls the toes, I think a little. He squares the shoe and sets it back to change his weight bearing.

He has not been landing heel first ever since he was shod on the 21st. The only difference was the wedges. I'm hoping the farrier will come by today and change his padding and see if that helps.

Could you explain why you think he's set up to land toe first? I can then ask my farrier.

I do know his white line is not as stretched as it was in September:

September


November


I was hoping to get both pics in one post, I don't know if the November pic will show up, but you can scroll up... The white (orange really) line has decreased significantly with this new shoeing.

I DO think he's made progress. However, I thought he made progress before, but I think I was only going by his soundness and just trusting the farriers.
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 5:09 pm:

Hi Aileen, His whiteline has improved alot. I don't know, if you look at the pic of his rt. front it looks like it is tilted to far forward. I can't remember, is that one wedged? If it is I guess that is why. To my very untrained eye it looks like he almost would have to land toe first, or his toe is too long, I just can't pinpoint it. Let me know what your farrier says, as I am curious also!
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 5:56 pm:

Boy oh Boy Aileen,

I have been following this post for a long time to see what unfolds. As you know I have a "Mystery Horse" myself.. and have been experimenting with different shoeing methods and non shoeing methods. Getting and keeping a good farrier is a new novel in itself .

One thing that I have noticed in similarities, is that on the right fore issue, he was more lame after shoeing. What is it about the right fore anyway???

On Laser the pad was removed on the right fore and kept on the left...a little bit of improvement, but no hot or tight nails or sole pressure to be giving him such grief. I made a comment to my vet about the flexion of the leg that one has to do to apply a shoe and could that make him sore etc. etc. Yes, it is a possibility.

I do see the reasoning behind the big shoes on Brave and that they will allow some support in the quarters or front of his foot, and allow for heel expansion in the back of his foot.

All in all, Brave's feet look healthy and he seems to be holding his shoes well...if only they would solve the problem.

Susan B.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 9:30 pm:

Hi Diane, yes it does have a wedge on it. Both front feet. The farrier didn't show...she may have called...however, I was on the internet a lot today She'll probably come out tomorrow when I'm at work. I'll see if I can get her to call me on my cell and ask the question.

Hey Susan! Sounds like you're going through the farrier rollercoaster...how is Laser otherwise? Good luck to you!

I do hope we're on the right track. I so wish my farrier would have come out today so I could see in the daylight if the padding switch helped.

Even if he does have ringbone, I'm ok with it. I'll be sad, but I know I can keep him comfy if I get his feet fixed. The consultant did email me and said that he thought the wedge would come off sooner on the right foot (grows heel faster and is potentially the foot with ringbone) than the left. I'm to keep his feet hard with Keratex or Crossopol. He said the wet will be his greatest enemy in the heel growth department. Luckily, he has a dry stall he loves and lots of rock in his paddock.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 11:29 pm:

Hi Aileen, I don't know how I missed following this thread, but boy can I relate. I am still on the roller coaster ride with Levi. I hope all of us hoof people can make it to the HA vacation, and do a group hug! It is all consuming sometimes, isn't it? When we get a reprieve of soundness, it is such a brain rest!
Good luck with your boy, I will keep track so that I might learn things to help my boy as well.
suz
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 6:36 am:

Aileen your post does not contain any information that is diagnostic for the recent onset of lameness so if it persists you should have it diagnosed. Since it is time-related to the shoeing various cause of shoeing related lameness is discussed in the hoof disease section. The diagnosis of ringbone is straight forward and discussed in the same section.

I think your appraisal of the ap balance is pretty good though looking at the images, there is still some break in the hoof pastern line in the RF. The LR is also off in the photo but the leg does not look as though he is standing square over it. Sometimes taking a short straight edge and lining it up with the hoof striations at the juncture of the quarter and toe provides a visual aid to lining up the pastern.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 10:26 am:

Thanks Dr. O,

I see the break now....do you think taking off the wedge would line it up correctly?

The consultant emailed me this morning with this option.

See Diane, you were right :-)

Thank you Susan, good luck with Levi!!
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 1:43 pm:

Hi Aileen, Everybody gets lucky sometimes! Can you remove the wedges and walk him around some to see if he lands a little better? In "my experiences" with a squared off toe it really didn't seem to help half as much as a good roll.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 2:05 pm:

I'm at work so I won't be there, but I did tell her that taking the wedge off is the next step if changing the packing doesn't work.

Cross your fingers for my sweet boy :-)
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 3:17 pm:

Aileen,

I've heard that some folks have had problems with certain types of packing causing lameness soon after shoeing. My farrier uses dental impression material and I've never had a problem.

Good luck!
Chris
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 3:22 pm:

I hope you go home to a much sounder horse. Fingers and toes are crossed!
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 3:28 pm:

Fingers, Toes and Hooves crossed .... Best of Luck and BIG HUGS .
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 4:38 pm:

Thank you all, I'll be on pins and needles until tonight.

The vet called me back. He felt it was more likely to be the wedge than the packing. But he also said he thought it was a nail too close to the laminae. I told him she tested the nails with no reaction and he said the pad would limit the reaction. He wants her to test the foot with no shoe/pad. Hopefully she'll check her messages before she sees my horse.

Chris, he does have dental impressions now. I asked him about an MRI if he doesn't get better, he said he did not feel that was necessary. He asked if I knew that they would lay Brave down to do it. I did not know that. Recovery scares the bejeesus out of me. An MRI would be my last resort.

Thanks again, you are all great.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 11:05 pm:

He's much more comfortable walking down hills, walking out, not tentative at all :-), sound on the straight, stood mostly square with little urging from me, but still a little off on his tight turns, he was improved but not 100%. My petsitter who works him for me during the day will check him for lameness tomorrow in the daylight... Unfortunately my arena lights aren't good enough for me to be able to do it. I have asked her not to see if he will work out of it. I want to wait to talk to the vet and the farrier again before I do that.

The farrier changed the packing on both feet (she left the used packing for me to see) and did not change the wedges.
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 6:55 am:

Aileen, that's good news! Is he sound on the left turns? If it was because the padding was to thick he could have some minor bruising.

When I had mine removed and replaced it took a few days and a little bute to return them to soundness.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 8:37 am:

I cannot tell that from the photos Aileen. At the next shoeing you could see if the horse stands aligned with without the wedge and then you have the answer for sure.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 10:38 am:

Thanks Diane, I am a bit relieved. :-)

He is not sound on tight turns to the left or right. Also, I couldn't tell if he was landing heel first. This is the drawback of leaving for work before the sun rises, and returning after the sun sets. I'll only know for sure by Saturday.

Thank you Dr. O, I will be able to be there for his next shoeing on December 27, so I will do that.
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 1:35 pm:

Aileen,

When I had the MRI done, it was done with my horse standing. Perhaps your vet does not have that particular type of MRI machine. You may want to ask it there is someone who does have a standing MRI in your area.

I'm not sure I understand your concern with laying the horse down. Did I miss something in your post about an adverse reaction to sedation?

Anyway, I'm glad he seems to be doing better.

Chris
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 3:25 pm:

Hi Chris,

The vet said I'd have to take him to the University, so no, he doesn't have the standing MRI, and evidently the University doesn't either.

But I WOULD do a standing MRI!

I have heard horror stories of horses recovering badly from being laid down. I don't want to risk that yet.

Thank you so much, I will look for a standing mri in my area :-)
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 4:14 pm:

Interesting. I can only share my own experience of having done colic surgery on one horse where I know he was completely knocked out. I watched both as he went down and later when he stood back up; absolutely no problems. I suspect the horse I had nerved was also laid down, but wasn't there so don't know for sure. That's only 2 data points at most, so maybe I've actually been lucky

I haven't heard of similar concerns, but would guess that many many horses recover from sedation without problems.


Good Luck,
Chris
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 4:29 pm:

I had an MRI done on my mare about a year-and-a-half ago to get a better idea of the extent of the soft-tissue injuries in one of her front feet. Here in Texas, there is only one MRI machine near Dallas in Las Colinas and it's not the standing model. So, they laid her down. I was there and it was an impressively major (and expensive) procedure. However, the team that did it were pros and she's young and healthy, so there were no complications whatsoever.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 5:37 pm:

Thank you both for your reassurances, but I'm still looking for a standing :-)

He marched off VERY well at the walk, but he's off at trot, the petsitter couldn't tell me where. She said he seemed very stiff. So we'll have to wait until Saturday when I can see him. Vet is out until Friday, so I'll talk to him again then. Haven't heard from farrier or consultant.
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 9:06 am:

Hi Aileen - I have a TWH gelding who put his foot through a piece of sheet metal - He did a lot of damage and required surgery which he received at the University of Tennessee. He was laid down for that surgery and subsequently was laid down two more times when he re-injured the leg. He did fine all three times. Zero problems waking up. I wasn't really happy with the type treatment but can't complain because a horse with the type injury he had should have ended up lame for life and he is totally sound. There were no complications from laying him down.
CK
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 7:46 am:

Hi Aileen, I was wondering how Brave is doing now that you get to see him in daylight? These short days are terrible.
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