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  Discussion on Chronic laminitis and stocking up
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New Member:
cinder

Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 11:37 pm:

A first timer here and really been enjoying reading the postings and learning a lot. I could probably go on for days (and nights)like chatty cathy to give you a run down on my horse's condition/problem, so please forgive me if this is we bit long. My 6 year old QH foundered pretty severely both fronts 1 week before foaling (4 years ago). It was not a good time for us as you could imagine. If I remember, 30+ degree rotations on both fronts, a tenotomy was done on the right. It was a miracle, but through a lot of vet care, TLC (and $$$) she did come back around. You would have never known her to have foundered so severe. I haven't had any problems with her up until last year. She is an easy keeper (if she looks at grass she will gain weight). I have learned so much about founder/laminitis, but unfortunately not enough to keep her sound. Last spring she foundered again, both fronts. I learned that it was carb overload from the grass. Although I had her on a gradual time period on the pasture, it was still too much. Rotation on the right 26 degrees, left 14 degrees. Followed the vets program - complete stall rest, lose weight, bute, frequent trim. Gradually, went to two 10 minute walks per day within the month. Unfortunately, when the vet came out, he trimmed her toe too far exposing the toe to sensitive tissue. This began a whole new session for me/her, wrapping the foot with iodine solution everyday for another month -concern that this would result in an abscess. We were successful with no abscess. Three months later(July)after the acute phase, she was moving great, hand grazing increase to 30 minutes twice a day. Rotation on both feet to 10 degrees. By August, she upgraded to the round pen (sandy footing) and very small dry lot about 1-2 hours per day. She did well. Then September, visit to the vets due to her rt front sore, vet said she foundered again, rotated 22 degrees Rt, 14 degrees Lt. She didn't really appear that sore or show the foundered stance. I have her trimmed every three to four weeks and doing great. She is out with the other horses in a dry lot. Feed is crab grass hay and a little alfalfa/orchard mix (about 1 flake per day) 10# hay per day total and biotin. Weight is 975 reduced from 1083. Two weeks ago she stocked up on all four. She is out everyday to exercise. The only thing I could think of why she stocked up was that I had cut her off the alfalfa/orchard within a weeks time thinking it was too much carb/sugar. Vet did xrays, no change in rotation, did a blood test-no anemia, no temp, Ca and glucose were slightly increased. Vet didn't have any answer to the stocking up, recommended putting her back on alfafa/orchard for the calcium, wait two weeks, stocking should subside (which it now has). She moves good, but I'm still puzzled as to why she has not improved with her rotation and the unanswered reason for the stocking up. She did exceptionally well in getting back to near normal the first go round with the founder. I'm concerned about her foundering again with the stocking up occurrence. Any suggestions? Thank you. (Sorry about the length).
Member:
freshman

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 12:45 am:

Sorry to hear your mare has metabolic and laminitis issues. She is very lucky to have such a dedicated owner!

The way I understand it, the degree of p3 rotation isn't dynamic in the sense that it goes up or down all the time. The bone generally rotates (or can also sink) down during each laminitic episode. The angle can be corrected to large degree via corrective trimming and shoeing over a long period of time. But the bone doesn't pop back up spontaneously after an acute episode or put itself back into a normal position on its own.

Radiographs before and after each trim or reset can show of how the angles are changing and (hopefully)improving over time. Obviously this is extremely expensive and usually difficult to coordinate with the vet/farrier at each 3-4 week trim interval.

I've never heard of a horse suffering such dramatic effects like stocking up after cutting down the alfalfa in its diet, or a horse that sensitive to a short-term vit/min/electro deprivation or imbalance when on grass hay only.
There is much debate amongst horse owners, vets, etc, on how alfalfa should be fed or not fed in these metabolic/founder cases. I'd err on the side of caution with a horse in such a critical condition with her feet. Grass hay only; the vit and min content of the alfalfa mix isn't worth the risk of setting off another laminitic epidsode. JMHO. You can give a vit/min supplement in a handful of low-starch grain mix or ration balancer if it comes to that.

Good luck with your mare! Horses like this are so difficult to manage. Again, she's a lucky horse to have you fighting for her.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 6:56 am:

Welcome Lydia,
I too do not believe the stocking up is diet related and considering the normal physical exam and lab work more likely a mild vasculitis or something that got on all 4 legs and irritated them but did not cause remarkable heat and pain. For more on this see the article and follow the links to the hot painful legs and read about these conditions. Yes I know your legs were not hot and painful but many of those conditions can occur in a milder form. If it happens 2 more times when you change the diet then I will reconsider...
DrO
New Member:
cinder

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 7:48 am:

Thank you Kristin and Dr.O. The vet has also suggested doing a shorter trim on the toes again. My farrier is conservative on trimming even though I tell him to keep the toe short. However, last time the vet trimmed her, he cut her back so far it exposed the soft tissue which set her back again in improving, but I understand his goal. Before this episode last spring, I was planning on showing her in ranch horse and the possibility of breeding her-eventually. I have talked to a lot of people about the possibility of breeding her. Some say never to breed, no riding, she will just be a pasture horse. Others have said okay to breed as long as she is thin/sound and it would be good for her on riding. I would not even consider doing anything to harm her so if she is a pasture horse that is okay too. Your thoughts on this? Thanks again very much.
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:28 am:

Lydia - I have a 14 yo TWH mare. She has foundered 15 or 16 times - have actually lost count. She is still somewhat overweight - probably needs to DrOp another 100 pounds - With her - alfalfa is the biggest factor. It takes such a small amount it is ludicrous. One of her founder bouts was caused when I tried giving her Accel - a supplement with an alfalfa base. She received the recommended dose of 1oz for two days. By the afternoon of the second day she was in the founder stance. Her founder episodes are handled with the use of styrofoam pads and making sure there is no alfalfa within 50 miles. I'm totally anti-breeding - so can't give you any help there. As far as riding is concerned - She is barefoot and right now totally pain free. If she needs shoes this Spring and Summer will use the Natural Balance shoes - which she does really well in. Keeping her trimmed properly is the number 1 priority. Getting rid of that last 100 pounds is the second.
Cheryl K
Member:
freshman

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:08 am:

I'd be hesitant to think of breeding her even if her laminitis stabilizes and she manages to get sound for a long period of time, especially considering that the foundered late term the last time she was bred. She may be a good candidate for embryo transfer in the future. Considering her recent laminitic episodes, it may be wiser to wait until next year to try ET; it's a costly process and it is reasonable to think that the chronic pain in her feet and other health issues may compromise her fertility. The process usually requires some hormone tx to facilitate AI (if not bred via live cover) and to sync the donor/recip mares. Not sure how or even if this might impact her laminitis or metabolic state. Something to ask your vet about, obviously, or perhaps other folks could chime in. There are a lot of folks here that have experience w/ metabolic and founder horses. Again, best of luck!
New Member:
cinder

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:17 pm:

Thanks so much, you all have been very helpful and informative. I will not consider breeding her. I will continue to stay on course with her diet/trim/exercise.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 11:46 am:

I support the idea of no breeding at least until the feet are normal with no signs of chronic founder: rings gone and no rotation.
DrO
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