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  Discussion on Stifle saga, some questions Dr. O
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Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 11:33 am:

Hi all,

Last Thursday my mare (7 yo TB) was very stiff and really un-forward, not like her. I had had a lesson on her the day before, 1/2 hour not stressful. So I figured she was a bit tired, she is in pretty good shape though. Yesterday I had a lesson and she was the same, REALLY stiff, not tracking over, she has a really nice free trot usually. Her hind leg (right) keeps giving out as well, if she's really tired sometimes she will do this but yesterday it was after about 10 mins of just walk and a little trot. She actually stumbled twice on the same leg on 2 consecutive strides. My trainer noticed immediately she was off. The only thing different is that I have been cantering her lately, not a lot, but at each lesson 2x a week.

She does have mild DJD in her front fetlocks, could she possibly have some DJD in her stifles and it is just now showing up with regular canter work? It may explain even further why she never raced.

Any input would be great, I'm going to give it another week and if it's unchanged I'm going to call the vet.

Thanks

Adria
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 12:48 pm:

Hi Adria,

I'm no expert, but it could be a lot of different things. What exactly do you mean that her leg "gives out?" Does it flop uselessly?

Stumbling at the canter does not necessarily indicate unsoundness, however. If your horse is not accustomed to balancing a rider in that gait, and especially if you were on a circle, she may just be trying to figure out her balance.

If she does all this at liberty, might be time for a lameness eval.. Good luck.

Watch her
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 6:07 pm:

Hello Adria,
Unfortunately all we know from your post is that your horse is off and this is a common problem with thousands of possible explanations and her past problems may or may not be pertinent, we just don't know. For information on caring for horses with unknown problems check out, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse. For information on localizing and diagnosing the problem see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse.
DrO
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 7:25 pm:

Yes I know it is a bit vague. I guess what I mean by "giving out"is that she feels like her hip collapses, walking along, bloop. She didn't stumble at a canter but at a walk. For me it might be like my ankle gave out and I stumbled, it's her hind though. She was cantering really well, really starting to collect and get balanced. She is very green and can be a bit forward, but has recently been really smooth.

Dr. O, I will check in localizing lameness, but this is a new thing with her, not really lameness, but really stiff and this stumbling. She also drags her hind feet as well.

thanks!
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 7:52 pm:

I'm not really sure of what I'm looking for, bi-lateral lameness or is it just the RH, it is stiffness.
She did have an IM vaccination on her rump on Monday but she was stiff the Thursday before, however, she had a tender lump where she had the injection, could be combination of things. I'll see how she is tomorrow and if the soreness from the shot is gone and she is still stiff then I can rule that out.

While reading about stifles, all I could think about was my torn ACL. I do no think my girl has a torn ACL, but can horses have ACL surgery like I will soon? Or is that not an option... I'll see how she is tomorrow, I'm just not that well versed in localizing the problem.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 10:26 pm:

After reading a lot on UFP, that's what it seems like including the "sinking" of the leg, like ones knees giving out, which Dr. O said was possibly a way of preventing the locking. Also since UFP seems to show up in the canter it could be. She does have a rather bouncy canter, which I attributed to greeness and racing training. Could be just that little bit of cantering set it off, and she wasn't quite fit enough. She is getting fitter and has had no problems at the trot until now. I will hold off on cantering for a while and see if she improves with more trot work to strengthen her hind.

I am going to give the vet a call tomorrow.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 9, 2007 - 6:31 am:

The injection on Monday could cause lameness for a week or so Adria, I would wait until next week before having the horse examined so that this transient problem does not confuse the diagnosis. In the meantime check out Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse.
DrO
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 5, 2007 - 2:37 pm:

Well, the vet finally came today to look at Rosie, she does indeed have UFP. After the initial serious event in early Nov. I had stopped cantering her and the "giving out" she was having had subsided. Then last week we decided to canter her again and she was crow hopping and swishing her tail. My trainer at first said she was just being resistant but since she had never done this before, she's a very willing girl, I knew she really must have been uncomfortable. Anyway the vet came, and sure enough on the right lead canter, it stuck and she was unable to make a canter depart. So we agreed to give her estrogen injections, I had asked her about giving the estrogen to mares, but she said it shouldn't affect her, well see... Then lots of straight trot work, no circles, in 2 point, I guess the 2 point to take weight off her back so she has a little more ease in getting under.

The interesting/odd thing here is that the vet, who mixes traditional medicine with homeopathic, asked me a question before we even did the exam. Did I have any health issues? Why yes, I tore my ACL in my right knee, she said that horses can sense even the smallest issue with a rider and compensate for it. Now she has a "knee" problem in her right as well, I can sympathize wholly!
Just a little bizarre...

Has anyone had experience with the estrogen therapy in mares? I'm not sure what I should look for in improvement, a general overall lessening of the stiffness, freer gaits?

thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2007 - 6:36 am:

Hello Adria,
You will find information and discussions on estrogen and UFP at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Stifle Lameness » Stifle Lock: Upward Fixation of the Patella.

You should see the stifle stop sticking: the leg will keep from sticking out behind the horse. See the article for more on symptoms.
DrO
Member:
gwen

Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2007 - 4:46 pm:

Glad you got a diagnosis, Adria. That is WEIRD about the knee thing.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2008 - 5:45 pm:

Dr. O and HA members,

In November I posted about my 7yo TB mare who had been diagnosed with IUFP. The vet initially injected her with Estrone, which did work for a week, she was then back to her old stiffness again, winter came and I was unable to keep up with an exercise schedule rigorous to make a difference.

I then had a highly recommended farrier look at her, watched her go, looked at her feet and said her toes are too long, unbalanced, she stabs with her front and the action in her hind was high and exaggerated. He re-shod her with Natural balance up front, which I think she's doing fine with and he also shod her in the rear, with a breakover to help with the stifle lock, she was barefoot in the rear before.

I haven't been able to ride more than one or two times a week since (the holidays, etc). But when I did she became increasingly worse, REALLY stiff, head tossing, trying to run away from herself (it seemed like it) swishy-tail, little bucks. She seems really beside herself with discomfort. She is not a fresh horse, always willing to please.

I resolved to work her everyday starting really slow, Sunday I free lunged her, just so she could be a bit free (the pasture is icy and snowy), MY oh my, the buck out of that horse, NEVER seen her do that. I've been walking her over cavaletti, trotting in hand over cavaletti (she even tossed her head for that, no bit in mouth).

Yesterday I rode her, lunged her first, she really bugged out a bit, she'd be trotting then her leg would a blip and she'd take off, cantering, cross cantering, then she'd stop, twist her leg, (ouch) she got her self very wound up. She calmed down when I got on her, she does do better with a rider, she needs that support.

My questions

How much pain could she be in from the stifle catching? Is she stiff from this?

Could the rear shoes have worsened the problem? She's due next Friday maybe I should not have her shod in the rear?

Her pasture is hilly and she has a really hard time coming down, she tiptoes slowly down,she slips, I can see her leg give out. Should she go into a level pasture? I thought the hills would be good for her, but maybe not if they are icy.

Sorry I'm so long winded, just really frustrated, I feel like we've gone backwards. And can I really provide her enough exercise to get her out of it? She was pretty fit when it happened to her.

Poor girl, I know she's hurting because she's pretty stoic and eager to please.

Any advice would be helpful, I'm actually considering the MPL splitting, anyone know what that might cost?

Adria
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 6:53 am:

Hello Adria,
I don't really understand your post well and it seems your questions are best answered by watching the horse Adria...hmm....do you have trouble seeing the UFP? Reposting this under the past postings on this problem might clarify the issues somewhat. Copy and paste should easily accomplish this.
DrO
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 8:45 am:

In November I posted about my 7yo TB mare who had been diagnosed with IUFP. The vet initially injected her with Estrone, which did work for a week, she was then back to her old stiffness again, winter came and I was unable to keep up with an exercise schedule rigorous to make a difference.

I then had a highly recommended farrier look at her, watched her go, looked at her feet and said her toes are too long, unbalanced, she stabs with her front and the action in her hind was high and exaggerated. He re-shod her with Natural balance up front, which I think she's doing fine with and he also shod her in the rear, with a breakover to help with the stifle lock, she was barefoot in the rear before.

I haven't been able to ride more than one or two times a week since (the holidays, etc). But when I did she became increasingly worse, REALLY stiff, head tossing, trying to run away from herself (it seemed like it) swishy-tail, little bucks. She seems really beside herself with discomfort. She is not a fresh horse, always willing to please.

I resolved to work her everyday starting really slow, Sunday I free lunged her, just so she could be a bit free (the pasture is icy and snowy), MY oh my, the buck out of that horse, NEVER seen her do that. I've been walking her over cavaletti, trotting in hand over cavaletti (she even tossed her head for that, no bit in mouth).

Yesterday I rode her, lunged her first, she really bugged out a bit, she'd be trotting then her leg would a blip and she'd take off, cantering, cross cantering, then she'd stop, twist her leg, (ouch) she got her self very wound up. She calmed down when I got on her, she does do better with a rider, she needs that support.

My questions

How much pain could she be in from the stifle catching? Is she stiff from this?

Could the rear shoes have worsened the problem? She's due next Friday maybe I should not have her shod in the rear?

Her pasture is hilly and she has a really hard time coming down, she tiptoes slowly down,she slips, I can see her leg give out. Should she go into a level pasture? I thought the hills would be good for her, but maybe not if they are icy.

Sorry I'm so long winded, just really frustrated, I feel like we've gone backwards. And can I really provide her enough exercise to get her out of it? She was pretty fit when it happened to her.

Poor girl, I know she's hurting because she's pretty stoic and eager to please.

Any advice would be helpful, I'm actually considering the MPL splitting, anyone know what that might cost?
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 8:48 am:

Dr. O,

I have reposted this under my original thread, although it should be moved to the UFP section, I don't know how to do that...

Adria
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:01 am:

Hi DR. O,

Sorry if my post was wandering and vague. The UFP is very visible, she never gets stuck by you can see the hesitation in the movement as she goes. She also stumbles as the leg gives out. It has become worse, and now she is more uncomfortable and very grumpy about it.

What I really want to know is what level of pain is she experiencing from the UFP? Does the ligament hurt as it catches? Is the joint affected and is that causing her pain? Are the surrounding muscles sore from compensating for the UFP? Could she have done something else, pulled something?

Also, could the rear shoes which were meant to alleviate the UFP be causing her more problems?
I did mention something to my trainer that she might be sore since new shoes would change her way of going and hence change how her muscles were, therefore giving her a bit of soreness. But what do I know!!!

The vet also said to give her Bute if she had bad days, but I had read that UFP does not respond to Bute?

I have a call in to my vet, but haven't heard back.

Thanks

Adria
Member:
mysi

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 7:11 pm:

Adria,
My issues with my horse sound so familiar. Started with a diagnosis of stifle issues, I injected the stifle (hocks and sacrum too), estrone for 8 weeks, hind shoes and a work regimen to strengthen. He got 95% better. Occasional stumbling was an issue too, which in turn he fell and busted his knees open, recovered from that well, but the occasional "giving out", stiff hind end, stumbling never completely disappeared. 9 months later, we cantered for the first time, next day lame. We blocked everything, nothing! Opted to do a bone scan.

Yes he had arthritis in his stifle and we stopped there in the beginning because according to my vet thats exactly what it looked like, text book stifle issue. He did block at the stifle but only about 60-70%. But in the end his true issue in his hind was DJD in his left pastern and the stumbling was DJD in his elbow.

My point, things are not always what they seem. As Dr. O stresses, localize the lameness through the correct steps. Slight improvement from a block is not enough.

I have retired my horse from everything except walking trail rides (after 6 months off). Your horses behavior is likely telling you she is uncomfortable. Unfortunately mine never complained and I probably did more damage. Everything I did was great for his stifles i.e.,shoes, extensive walk and trot on hard ground, but horrific for his arthritis. I always look back and wish I would have done more diagnostics from the beginning, things might be so different. But he is my best friend, my love and my giant puppy dog and I couldn't ask for more!

One more thing, if it truly is only her stifle causing this, a consistent work regimen is crucial to strengthen that area. I know this time of year it's hard with the weather, but don't expect much from her until you can work her more often and slowly. Months of walking and trotting on straightaways, then inclines, only after all of that should you start cavaletti's and after alot of that, cantering.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:49 pm:

Melissa,

Thanks for your response and insightful info. This is what I'm afraid of, a long diagnostic haul. I did talk to my vet today and she says that the sudden down turn may have been the rear shoes, specifically that they had borium on them and that caused her to stick and put stress on other parts of her hind legs, specifically, possibly her hocks. So, if this is true, by trying to help one area I have hurt another... I'm going to have her shoes pulled and a good trim on the rear, then the vet said give her a couple of days rest with Bute and then see how she feels with her old barefeet and go from there. Maybe when borium (not that it did much good, she still slips down the hill) isn't needed.

Plus, since it is winter I don't think she's getting enough exercise in the pasture, it's been snow, rain, ice, snow, ice and shes really tentative about the footing.

We haven't done any blocks nor radiographs yet, we will start with the Estrone again when she's moving better, and then I need to have a regular work schedule for her. I'm not totally confident that the exercise regimen will work, like your guy 95% good, but the stumbling, giving out and stiffness never went away. And cantering, the whole thing started with cantering.

She does have DJD in her front fetlocks, so checking for that might be a good idea if she continues to be stiff.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and I think you followed the the best course for your guy at the time and as it unfolded, the same for Rosie, right now we can see her stifle sticking, but it could be a symptom of something else. She didn't complain before the shoes, so I think she is telling me something is really wrong and putting new shoes on her before she even had a chance to get stronger was not a good idea.

I guess I'm looking forward to some long leisurely walks...

Thanks

Adria
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2008 - 8:50 am:

Hello Adria,
Without the horse getting stuck I think the diagnosis and what is going on remains in question Adria. If it is a very mild UFP, generally such mild sticking does not cause soreness elsewhere. So yes if there are signs of painful lameness, I think it is possibly some other cause. Recent thought is that there is an important connection between foot balance and UFP for more on and evaluating your horses foot balance see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Stifle Lameness » Stifle Lock: Upward Fixation of the Patella.
DrO
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