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Discussion on Levi's white line disease is back
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Feb 25, 2008 - 11:43 pm:
Dr. O, I had the farrier out today, to do my other 2 horses, she noticed that Levi's back foot seemed longer than the other. This is the one that had a center crack in it. When it was first discovered by the 2 hours away farrier, he dug out sand and gravel in the separated area, and filled it with Keratox, heated it and melted it in. Did not say he had any white line, I asked.
This last trimming, I told him I thought the crack was getting longer. He trimmed him and assured me it was fine. This was Friday the 1st.
I had the farrier even out his feet, and when she did so she discovered soft black, smelly gunk. Same as before, I helped to dig it out with my bone currette, and it went all the way up the crack, almost to the coronary band.
1. Could the white line disease have been that aggressive, 3 weeks since last trim? Or did the other guy miss it? She nipped away a big chunk from the front/center will take pics tomorrow. I dug out what I could with the bone currette, it seems like a clear channel straight up the center of his foot with solid foot on either side. I then dumped thrush buster in the channel, and all around.
He is not scheduled to go up to the farrier/vet until March 11th. This new farrier was going to go with me, to learn how to work on Levi's feet to save me the long trip. 2. Will two weeks be a major problem, if I dug out what I could feel in there. I am sure it goes all the way up the center of his back foot. 3. Can they cut away a big chunk of center wall, and still have his foot stay together?
I was so sure I would be able to ride this boy this summer. Why can't I get rid of this. It is now in a 3rd foot? The other 2 front, so says the farrier, are doing great?
He stall is kept with fresh wood shavings daily, it has been snowy and they have been out daily. Is there anything I can do to his environment? Would straw be better than bedding?
Help
suz}
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 26, 2008 - 6:55 am:
Hello Susan,
Black smelly junk is going to be thrush and not clearly white line disease.
1) Being uncertain of how big is "big", I really cannot judge what the other farrier might have seen. However it does takes awhile for significant defects in the wall to form from either thrush or white line disease.
2) It should be treated as soon as is reasonably possible.
3) Without knowing how big is "a big chunk" I am uncertain how stable the wall will be when they are done. But there are many techniques for stabilizing the wall including shoes with clips and/or wire or metal strips screwed across the defect.
Anything you can do to keep the environment clean and dry will help you, which ever bedding best achieves this would be the one I would pick. Daily picking out of the feet looking for problems areas and early treatment of them with formaldehyde products when they start should prevent further problems.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 26, 2008 - 11:19 pm:
Dr. O, here is what levi's feet look like right now. The first is the new location, hind right foot. the purple line is a crease that goes up the center of the foot, not really a crack but the bone curette went pretty much up to the coronary band. She did not cut away any more hoof wall.
front right foot
front left foot (the original location)
When I called the farrier today, he said when I asked how we could miss it, he said it grows really fast when it attacks new fresh tissue. He said he thought maybe I was keeping the stall too clean and dry, and maybe we should try the opposite of what we are doing. I think he is at the point of throwing up his hands, not knowing why we keep getting this stuff back? Is this just a chronic problem I will deal with forever?
Suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2008 - 7:25 am:
I do not believe a WLD or thrush defect that reaches to the coronet was created in a shoeing period or two. If we assume the crease is caused by the pathology created by the disease and its effect at the coronet where the crease forms, it suggests at least 6 months involvement and if the crease went to the ground this has been there almost a year.
To assure the most rapid healing the defect needs to be completely opened so it can be treated and monitored. Clips on each side of the defect may stabilize the hoof enough. Once healed, no evidence of disease for a month, you can repair it with Equi-lox and probably ride keeping the shoes and clips.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2008 - 5:42 pm:
Today, I put a pad on Levi's foot and taped it up just to keep moisture out and let him out for the first time. He was out for about and hour, and seemed fine, running and playing, then I noticed the pad had fallen off, and he was holding his foot in the air. It looks to me like she cut his sole off all the way to the frog, and it is flat with surface of the ground. I called and can get him into the vet/farrier in South Dakota on Monday. I really think she cut off too much sole, as he has no cushion, his frog is flat with his sole. I put a cotton pad in an old mac boot, and gave him some bute, put him inside.
I am so discouraged with my options. This farrier was going to be my hope of not driving 2 1/2 hours in sub zero temps, + gas, and now my confidence in her has wained. She did one of my other horses a while back and cut his back foot too short, I had to pad him for two days. I just have so few options here.
I know, you have nothing to add, just needed to vent.
Poor Levi - Poor Suz
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2008 - 6:40 pm:
Suz, I'm so sorry you're having such horrible trouble with all these hoof issues. It's bad enough living in the "snow country" so I can't imagine adding to it a lame horse. I'm formerly from NW IA, SE SD, so know what your weather is like. Best to you and Levi. Wish I could send my special farrier your way.
Shirl
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2008 - 7:57 pm:
I read the article on bruises, and with such a quick onset, Can we assume it is a bruise? He came in the barn just shortly after the pad fell off, he was running and playing just fine for about an hour. He went zooming out the door right after I took the last bit of duct tape off his foot for a few minutes, and came back in the barn with his foot in the air like it realllly hurt. We have mountains of ice and hard snow all over their yard. I will try the hoof tester tomorrow, I will need help with that. He does have a strong but not rapid digital pulse, and his hoof is warm, not hot, but warm. I took the boot off for tonight, and put some keratox in the hole. He is standing on all fours eating. Of course, I am reluctant to do any kind of soaking as the article suggests. I sprayed the bottom of his foot with apple cider vinegar/tea tree oil. Will just keep him in until Monday, and the weather is finally going to be warm 50 degrees on Saturday.
I think I will put the boot and cotton back on tomorrow to let him wander around in the barn, good idea or not?
I think a bottle, not a glass, of wine is on the menu for tonight.
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2008 - 9:35 pm:
Hi Suz Hank had a similar crack in his rear hoof this summer. We did not dig it out I just dumped betadine in it all the time. . He was sore on that hoof on hard ground for quite awhile. It seemed as tho he was weight bearing on his sole in the area of the crack. Thankfully I had dry weather at the time. Could you wrap it in a diaper and vet wrap/duct tape.... for water proofing, for turnout? That way you could medicate it at the same time. Kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak. Here's what Hanks crack looked like. Vet said it was WLD? Enjoy your wine.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2008 - 9:39 pm:
Susan I don't see enough information to diagnose a bruise. For our thoughts on treating horses with lameness of unknown cause see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 28, 2008 - 2:45 pm:
Susan, so sorry to read of Levis troubles again, Damn! So many farriers and yet so much trouble arises from like of skill! If she left him little soul he is bound to be sore. When my current farrier (4yrs now) stasrted he refused to trim soul off, had to get use to that but it paid off big time even for Zarr who would step on a pea and limp for a day! Pete Ramey made such a believer out of me I will forever chant Leave the Soul Alone! It sounds as if you are doing right but I agree .... Poor Suz Poor Levi! Cindy
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 28, 2008 - 7:05 pm:
Susan - so sorry to hear about your latest trouble. Best wishes on figuring out what is going on, so you know how to treat it.
Lilo
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 28, 2008 - 8:56 pm:
Thanks to all. Levi was kept in all day, so it is hard to see how he is walking, although he is solid on all 4 feet, still warm and has a slight pulse. I gave him another gram of bute tonight, he is just not his normal annoying self.
The other farrier called, and said he would love to ride up with me to learn what is going on with Levi, and learn how to do him. He has been doing horses for years, and did an OK job with my horses last summer once. So I am going to have him ride up with me and check it out. I really need to get a local person if I am going to keep this horse for the rest of his and my life. At this rate he will outlive me. My stress level is just toooooo high.
I tried to put a hoof tester on his feet, but an impossible task alone, he did not flinch where I could put the tester.
As much as I look forward to spring, I dread it as well. I taped Levi today, and he is either 1040 - 1111 depending on where I put the tape, I will have to read the article on tape placement. This poor horse live to eat, he has nothing else to do in life.
Will let you all know how it goes on monday
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 11:14 am:
Hi Dr. O, and all. Levi went to the vet in South Dakota yesterday. You were right about it not being the white line. It was thrush, as it was just one channel straight up his center crack. He said we had cleaned it out really well. They removed a bit more horn, and put a shoe on with clips, to keep the foot together. We did x-rays on all four feet to be sure. The vet said he is the soundest he has ever been on the front, a bout a 1 lameness on the back foot. They only put one shoe on the back though, hope this does not throw him off.
These are the pre shoeing x-rays. They did take the heel off a bit more on the left front, the palmer angle he said was about a 9-10. We are almost totally grown out on the front now. I packed the spaces in his feet with some kerotox wax, so he can go out. He advised to not dig around too much in the back foot, keep it packed, remove the wax and clean and treat once a week. Do you concur?
Right Front
Left Rear
Right Rear
Left front (the really problem foot)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 4:52 pm:
Boy Susan if I recall previous x-rays of Levis fronts you have done a wonderful job!!! Not being an x-ray expert...but I'm being forced to learn! What did the vet say about the left front? It does appear as if he still has some rotation there, but has improved! Is his shoe not full in the heel it looks a little short? or is that just the image? Glad Levis white line wasn't back! I hope Hanks x-rays are that good in a few months.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 6:08 pm:
The original problem x rays are posted under founder/laminitis;bute or banamine You can really see that we have come a long way in general since the beginining and also since last year. Now the fear of spring. My vet said that he would do great in the desert,so I came home and told my hubby we are off to Arizona
He is a constant work in progress obviously. I just realized that he will be 8 years old in May, and I think I have been able to ride him a total of 10 or 12 times. This is our year!!!
suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 8:56 pm:
Susan, I have a friend in Arizona so if you and Levi want to run away she's there, ! Her mustang is 32 and a burro old as dirt but 5 acres she'd have room !
Spring is such a wonderful time except for horse moms who fear every green blade of grass that pops up!!! So glad it was not WLD again. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 6:33 am:
Susan,
without seeing what they are seeing I really don't know if I concur with their take home instructions. Once a week treatment for a foot with a serious thrush infection seems a bit lax. The right fore does still exhibit a bit of rotation so taking the heel down (as described in the article on derotation) is sensible.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 8:42 am:
I will be taking the keratox out today and treating the foot, I will leave it open today as well, and leave them in, we are snowing and crappy again here.
I will also not follow their recommendations to not keep my stall so clean. The farrier convinced the vet to tell me that he sees more white line in horses that live in well maintained barns with stalls that are cleaned twice a day. My stalls are clean and dry, and I will continue to do that despite them telling me to let the stalls get dirty. Can you believe that they recommended that I leave this horse, in a dirty stall ???????
I will follow your recommendations.
suz
Do you think that the right front foot is still rotated as well as the left????
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 9:18 am:
The comment about only in cleaned stalls is interesting. I have seen well cared for stalling and horses not stalled at all with the problem so I don't know about this. I couldn't understand your question until I went and looked at the images again and your question about the trimming on the left fore, obviously I mis-wrote, the left front is the one with a touch of pre-trimming rotation.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 10:47 pm:
Now that we are melting around here, it is a sloppy mess outside. I have tried putting the keratox into the missing hoof on Levi's back foot. It does not seem to stay put, so I was wondering should I just coat it with coppertox or thrush buster and call it good? It is just wet snow and mud>
I can't imagine keeping him in the rest of melt time.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 9:52 am:
I recommend the treatment in the article Susan, check to see if the Thrushbuster still uses it.
DrO
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 4:13 pm:
Susan, check out my advice to Melissa under Toe Crack. It sounds like you have fungus and need to treat that. Thrushbuster doesn't cut it especially since the fungus has migrated up the wall of the hoof. The treatment that Linda Cowles recommends really works although the original soaking thing is a bit of a pain. I used Old Macs over the plastic bags since I could not get those darn soaking boots on my horse! Also I think the Vicks Vaporub is great stuff and several friends are trying it out too after the original soak in White Lightning and then the daily usnea. Her website is www.healthyhoof.com Shoes will cause more holes for fungus to invade, but that is your decision.
Good luck, Gail
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 11:56 am:
Hi Gail, thanks Dr. O. As anyone knows, I have been at this for EVER!!!! I have been doing as recommended by everyone. Now the vicks vaporub is a new one, I of course, will try anything to make sure we stay on track and get to ride this beast this year. Is there a property in the Vicks that works on fungus.
I will post a picture of Levis fixed foot. They removed a large amount of hoof wall from his back foot, that is why we put a shoe on with clips to keep his foot from spreading out, and causing more problems. He will need to be in shoes, according to the vet and farrier, who have finally got him on track, probably forever, due to the club foot/short tendon thing in his left foot.
I have tied the bags on the feet, they rip off, but I have not tried the plastic inside my old macs. I do have a concern, and maybe Dr. O, could advise. When I have kept him in the plastic, or boot, by the end of the day his hoof is warm, from trapping heat inside, I am worried this would create a perfect environment for fungus.
We know we have fungus - among us LOL, it has been an ongoing battle, tried the clean trax, smells like diluted bleach, which is probably much cheaper. talked with the rep, he said you have to clean out your barn, stall walkway etc, and spray with clean trax. Not very practical, unless you have a show barn, we just have a farm barn.
What is this usnea you have written about? I am determined to do whatever it takes, but the farrier I am working with seems to think that I keep him in too sterile conditions. His stall is kept immaculate and dry, scooped daily and new dry bedding added, plus he has just the dirt floor in the center aisle to hang out on as well, They are outside 9-10hours a day, right now it is melting snow, mud, and now exposed poop everywhere! I would think the vaporub would be a moisture barrier, as long as we are not trapping anything in the foot? When we left the farrier he had no thrushy material but there still is a little channel that they did not expose, they never are willing to remove as much hoof wall as is needed.
I am also spraying with tea tree oil/apple cider vinegar daily. I will stop after today, however, as his sole is like a rock right now.
Will take the wish for good luck, Gail, we need it.
suz
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 3:22 pm:
Suz, There's nothing you have not tried and you are to be commended for the way you do any/everything necessary to get this guy where he needs to be (under saddle). Sending hugs, prayers your way.
Shirl
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 3:26 pm:
Since my post I have reread a very good article about wall cracks by Pete Ramey. You can find it on his website www.hoofrehab.com or in The Horse's Hoof magazine. He gives several reasons why they happen and good pictures that look just like your horse's hoof. The reason I would use the White Lightning soak is that it does not make chlorine like the Clean Trax. I too found my horses' hooves very warm after the soak, but the frog looked very healthy and clean afterward. The soak also gets up into the wall of the hoof with the opening from the crack in the wall to help eliminate the fungus inside the wall which topicals will not touch. The usnea was recommended by Linda Cowles. It is derived from a tree lichen and is sole online or in health food stores as a tincture in alcohol. 1 oz is about $10. You use the eyeDrOpper to apply to clean hoof on the frog, sulcus, white line, etc. and then cover with the Vicks. The Vicks is my idea since Dr. Gott the newspaper columnist has written about it for years and years for curing toenail fungus and I finally got my husband to try it after 30 years of fungus and it cured it right away! You have to be careful with the usnea as a bump from the horse can cause you to spill. I like to put it in a spray bottle or the small plastic dye bottles with very fine tip sold in hair supply stores. The tea tree oil/vinegar is one of the soaking methods like dilute Lysol, borax, etc. Just make sure you continue to treat even when you see no signs of fungus. It can be harboring under healthy frog and deep in the commissures. Linda recommends just one or two soaks with the White Lightning, then a week or two of usnea with goop and then periodically. Her article mentions very subtle signs which my horses have had even though their frogs looked healthy and good. I have only been treating them for about 3 weeks, but there is improvement already. Most farriers/trimmers think that a healthy looking frog is always healthy, but that is just not the case. I guess the only downside would be to treat too often if we are too vigilant because we might destroy new tissue. You just have to make that decision based on the horse's response.
Not to nag, but wouldn't the crack heal much better without the pressure and lack of circulation that the shoes cause?
I hope you get this resolved with Levi. Since reading Linda's articles which finally gave me the answers I was trying to figure out on why my barefoot horses' hooves were not responding the way I thought they should at times, it has relieved my continual worry. I am just trying to spread the word to others since this is such a common problems in all horses. I really wish you success.
Gail
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 4:36 pm:
Gail, you are incorrect about the antifungal properties of Thrush buster (at least the old formulation, and I am uncertain about the Vicks VapoRub. The old treatments for athletes foot and jock itch were rubrifacent aromatic oils somewhat similar to VapoRub. However these products were only minimally effective as a suppressant. I am delighted to hear about your husbands toe nail fungus and a Consumer Report had a similar report a few years back.
Susan it takes time for undermined hoof wall to grow back and diligence with new spots, but by your reports it seems to me when you find infection you have been treating it effectively or do I misunderstand this?
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 8:41 pm:
Thanks Shirl, for the kudos, and the good wishes. You know Dr. O, you are right, I have been more diligent that just about anyone I know with this lovable beast of mine.
I just have resigned myself to the fact that he is going to be predisposed to some sort of problem, and I will continue to watch for any areas that need attention, and attend to them. I don't know how to find out if thrush buster has formeldhyde in it or not. But even though my vet suggested the coppertox, I have chosen to follow your recommendation to use the thrush buster. His foot looks Okey Dokey for now.
Gail, I think that the shoe is keeping Levi's back foot stable. He does not have very strong reliable feet, and until they grow out, I think he will do better with the extra support the shoe is providing him. He did not have the thrush in his frog at all, just the white line.
I still have anxiety attacks about this boy, but I am getting better.
thanks all
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 15, 2008 - 9:38 pm:
Well I can't cure your anxiety attacks Susan, but I do not know any reason this horse's feet cannot be 100% unless your worry continues to make those feet weak. I believe in the power of positive thought. You should discuss with your vet about the therapy change, I continue to feel strongly that the person who can see the horse can give you the best advice.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 16, 2008 - 7:30 pm:
The only thing that I am a bit concerned about, is that the farrier told the vet to tell me not to keep my stalls so clean. What is your opinion on that. He said let him slug around in wet, poopy stalls? That just contradicts all that I have learned.
I am presently cleaning his feet, brushing out the mud, spraying with apple cider vinegar/tea tree oil mixture to clean it out, and squirting in coppertox or thrush buster.
I did not get any real direction from the vet, I trully don't think he knows what to think will work with Levi. I am just going to keep my eye on it, and do what I can.
Positive thoughts sure have come my way via HA, so I will start being a bit more positive myself.
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 10:51 am:
An Update on Levi
Levi has been in the aluminum 3degree raised heel shoes forever. We have had numerous problems, as most of you know.
Last Friday Levi was running in the mud, and came back in with 2 shoes missing. His farrier appt. was not until tuesday, so I kept him somewhat confined till his appt. It had been 7 weeks since his trim.
I had the vet x-ray him as a benchmark to compare with his x-rays from march. She suggested, and the farrier concurred that Levi could go barefoot, YEAH! I hope it is the right decision. He had 12mm or cm of sole, and a palmer angle of 6 on left ( the most rotated foot in the past) and a 1 on the right. There was a tiny spot of chalkyness in the right foot, that I treated with thrush buster when I got home, but they felt that he had nice solid laminai. The farrier, who has been working on Levi forever, said, "if it was my horse, I would go barefoot, and when it is time to put shoes on, he has enough heel to go back to a steel flat shoe"
I am elated but guarded. It will be so nice to not worry about shoes being ripped off by a racing joyful horse, snow packing in shoes, etc. etc. Everytime he ripps his shoes off from overreaching (yes I wear the boots)he takes off hoof wall with them.
Here are his x-rays from this week.
Dr. O do you think we should be Ok. It has been 21 months since his initial resection.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 4:31 pm:
Susan, saying this to you and Levi in a whisper, YeaH! Do not want "murphy" to hear. I still pick up Whiskey's feet each day and don't breath til I'm sure all is still OK! The joyful horse part is so good to hear1 Whiskey and Pest played a long game of tag yesterday and he is still moving good today! Exhale!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 8:15 pm:
Susan, I have always thought your horse was going to be OK.
DrO
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