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  Discussion on Ulcer? What else could resistance to the leg?
Author Message
Member:
hdollard

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 11:04 pm:

Hi-

I have a 9 yr-old OTTB. He has had at least one ulcer in the 4 years I've owned him; I had him scoped for the first ulcer, and did a full course of gastrogard. I think he had a second one 2 years ago based on his behavior and did another course of gastgard. Symptoms of past ulcers included teeth grinding, extreme girthiness and sensitivity to being groomed on his flanks, and refusal to move forward under saddle (but no bucking or kicking). When not in pain, he has a willing attitude and good work ethic. Very sweet and kind personality.

The current problem seemed to start about 2 months ago. He would cowkick or give small bucks right after a canter transition. He never bucked at all before, ever. He was his usual self at the trot and walk. He then was out of work for three or four weeks with 2 abcesses, at the same time, in both left feet. When he was all healed, I started him back in work and he was a little balky at first, and a tiny bit uneven, but then seemed to be going OK at the walk and trot. Last week after a very good walk/trot lesson, my trainer got on him to school him on his canter transitions. He pinned his ears, tossed his head, and cow-kicked and bucked when asked to canter. She concluded that something was really bothering him, and we ended the session. We thought it might be something muscular related to canter departs. Since then, every time I've gotten on him, he has gotten worse, and now behaves as I described above even at the walk. With careful experimenting, we've concluded that what he doesn't like is having leg pressure on his sides. (He is OK on the longe, and will move forward with little or no fuss under saddle if you give a voice command with no leg.) He is showing none of the other ulcery behaviors as he did when he had the confirmed ulcer, and yet his resistance to the leg is much more extreme. Should I just start him again on the gastrogard? In the past it would take at least a week or two on the meds before I was sure I was seeing an improvement. And an endoscopy in my area cost $700.

If this is not an ulcer, what else could it be? (Yes, saddle has recently been fit by a reputable saddle fitter, teeth recently floated.) I would like to examine other possibilities before scoping and/or another course of gastrogard. I do have a massage therapist coming in a few days. Should I wait or just start the meds (and the cash flowing)?

Thanks for your help!!!!

-Heidi
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 9:08 am:

Hello Heidi,
To be honest the most common reason for this behavior is a strong willed horse that has gone backwards in his training, this is often a behavioral issue. Sometimes this occurs when a horse is faced with more work than he wants to do or has grown confused with what is being asked. Do you notice this worsens as you try to advance your horses learned skills? If you give time off every time he is being treated I wonder if the time off allows him to reset though I do agree "teeth grinding" in a horse that does not do it as habit is a possible symptom.

A thorough exam by a veterinarian for problems should be first conducted if nothing is found you should discuss with him the use of antiulcer medicine noting the diagnostic information in the article on Ulcers. You should also note there are less expensive alternatives to Gastroguard and they too are discussed in the article. If this is the route you take I would be interested in what predisposing elements to ulcers are in your horses environment? And the results of the treatment.
DrO
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 9:30 am:

Hi Heidi,

I agree that it's always good to rule out pain, especially if he's teeth-grinding.

But think about it-- research shows us that we see MORE ulcers in highly trained performance horses, especially when they're competing. So balking at a canter transition is clearly not a common ulcer symptom. In fact, if I were being perverse, I could try to argue that excellent obedient canter transitions were a better indicator of ulcers than ornery cow kicking.

In my limited experience, it sounds more like a training/behavior problem, whether he has ulcers or not. Good luck sorting it out!
Member:
hdollard

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 9:34 am:

Dr O-

Its hard for me to believe that this leg-aversion behavior is an attitude or training problem. He is not a strong-willed horse. He has not been especially challenged recently- if anything, just the opposite. And, the only time he hasn't had a "just want to please you" attitude is when he's had a physical problem. Since he has a history of ulcers, I've done my best to address all the ulcer management factors I can. He has group turnout at least 12-14 hours with free-choice hay most of the time (When the hay runs out, they may go without for part of a day). He is on an appropriate diet for an ulcer-prone horse. He hasn't been to a show in nearly a year. The past few months, he has been ridden about four times per week, except when he had the abscesses. Is it possible that the pain from the abscesses caused enough stress to make a low-grade ulcer flare up?

-Heidi
Member:
shanson

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 12:24 pm:

Maybe off-the-wall, but have you considered the farrier work being source of discomfort? Do you know what happened to cause the two absesses?
Member:
hdollard

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 5:17 pm:

If it were just canter departs, I would agree, it could be a training issue- but now also at the WALK? And only when I put pressure with the leg? And I've covered the farrier angle, too. One of the abscesses was a hot nail, but his feet are good now, and a 2nd farrier checked them, too.

I did speak to the vet that scoped him 4 years ago, and he said it sounds like an ulcer, but I should also check for trauma around his ribs (kicked by a pasture buddy?).

Since I can't afford the $2000 for the scoping and the gastroguard, I'm going to skip the scoping and do a week or so of gastroguard, and if that helps, then switch to the ranitidine. Has anyone tried that approach?

Thanks for all your suggestions.

-Heidi
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 8:19 pm:

Heidi,
Yes since 60% of all horses have some ulceration on endoscopy so this has become a frequent catch all diagnosis for a host of behavioral problems. If only there was some scientific work to support these behavioral problems as a primary symptom of gastric ulcers.

However we have a strong policy that respects the limits of this method of advice. If those are your feelings and the veterinarian cannot find a reasonable muscoskeletal cause and you feel earlier ulcer treatment has helped you should consider our thoughts on managing, causes, diagnosing, and treatment of ulcers.
DrO
Member:
stevens

Posted on Friday, Mar 7, 2008 - 8:36 am:

Heidi,

You may have seen the other thread already discussing use of the non-prescription Ulcergard instead of Gastrogard. If you really think it's an ulcer problem, try the Ulcergard and reduce training for a week or so and see if it makes any difference. It's not going to hurt and it's less money out of your pocket.

Of course if it works, it won't be proof that there was an ulcer since many things can happen in even a week or two.
Good Luck.
Member:
hdollard

Posted on Sunday, Mar 9, 2008 - 7:12 pm:

Update on Rafe: The masseuse came today. She said his hamstrings are very sore- enough to cause the problems at the canter when my trainer got on. Right after that I had a lesson with another trainer. I got him going forward off the leg pretty well although he tried all the same stuff. We worked through it, mostly, but we expect it will take a while to deal with it completely. She thinks what may have started as genuine pain has now (also?) become attitude. So, to those of you who thought it was a training problem, you seem to right, at least in part. So, I'm stopping the ulcer meds at least for now.

Thanks to all!

-Heidi
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 9:32 am:

Hmmm...OK...has your veterinarian found pain in these muscle bellies? You can support the diagnosis of myopathy with lab work for muscle enzymes a very sensitive indicator of muscle problems. If this is a recurring problem you might consider some of the tying up disorders at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM.
DrO
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 10:11 am:

Hi Heidi,

Pain could certainly explain the behavior, but what's causing the pain?
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