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Discussion on Caught between vet and farrier - help
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 11:03 pm:
I have a wonderful 7 year old quarter horse, Titan. I also have an almost 26-year-old thoroughbred, Abe.
I think my farrier and vet are great. I saw the changes my farrier made to Abe's feet. It was amazing.
Last Sat., when being shod, Titan did a little spook at a strange noise and pricked the sole of his left foot. The next day he was lame and the wonderful lady who runs the barn called my vet.
My vet called me and said "Since when did your horse have paper thin soles and thin walls? When I did the vet check if I saw that I would have gone up one side of you and down the other". In other words she would have told me not to buy him. When the vet first saw him he had just had his first shoeing in 6 years - so his feet were hard. He has had shoes since September 2006. She said he had to go to a barn where she has her office and they have soft bricks the horses can walk on. The idea is that he go shoeless. The cost is $500 which I expect does not include the cost of frequent trimmings by the lady who runs the place (not my farrier).
My situation is relevant. I am going on long term disability. In July/07 I had a car accident. It started me crying and I haven't been able to stop crying a lot. In August, I had hip resurfacing on my left hip (like a hip replacement) - my right one had been done in 2006. Then in November I fell on my face on hard concrete. When I started slurring my speech at work and falling aslseep sitting up, the partner (it is a law firm) said I was going on sick leave. I kept falling - at least 2 of the fall were down my steps. At Christmas I hallucinated and was taken by ambulance to the hospital - I had e.coli blood poisoning. Because of my hips, I cannot fall off a horse. Titan is wonderful - a 2-year old rode him and Titan watched every step he took to make sure he did not take a mistep. He's a wonderful sweet horse. He is a safe horse. The vet says where he is now is too rocky so he can't stay there.
My farrier says he can do fine just where he is if he wears pads and boots. My farrier is so good. My prior farrier had my poor older horse walking on his sore heels. My current farrier turned this around. She was recommended by a lady who rehabilitates horses. She suggested I send her farrier photos of Abe's feet which I did. This farrier, for no charge, sent me a very long email analyzing the photos and everything about his feet. Although she probably otherwise would not have taken a new client, she took me. I trust her.
I also trust my vet and don't want to lose her. I don't think she owns the place where her office is. Her fees are likely lower than a lot of other vets. She is clearly not in it for the money.
I am not rich. I am going on disability. I can't really afford a large amount of money for a year.
What my farrier suggests makes sense. She is smart and level-headed. She is extremely knowledgeable and cares about the horses she works on.
I don't want to lose my farrier or my vet. What do I do? 
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 12:22 am:
First let me say how sorry I am to hear of your circumstances. It does sound as if you are dealing with some serious health issues and that must take precedence. Your health is paramount. Many times we think we should be able to "pull ourselves up by the boot straps". That's not always possible--could you pull yourself out of quicksand by your own hair? Please search out the resources and people you need to help you.
As to your situation with your horse, if you feel you can trust both the vet and farrier, and you don't seem to feel one way is better or worse for your horse, then perhaps your own rather difficult situation will help make the decision. Once you get a handle on the total costs, i.e. where he is and his farrier care there, vs. the total costs at the place the vet recommends. Then you can explain to them your decision has to be made purely on a financial basis for now. The other thing you might do is educate yourself on the course of treatment each recommends and go with what you think is best for both you and your horse. Perhaps there is a middle ground and he could be barefoot and stay where he is. If it's rocky, it may take some time to adjust and adapt, but that my be just what he needs. Many barefoot advocates say rocky ground develops a tougher hoof. Hoof boots can be a big help during the transition. Your farrier will likely need to adjust the way he trims--but I believe all farriers could benefit from learning to do a good barefoot trim. I know their horse clients would benefit! Best of luck with all this and keep us posted. There is a lot of information available, and on this site there is a lot of emotional support as well.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 6:15 am:
What a terrible few years you have had!.
You have to do what you feel is best for your horse and within your budget. I have a horse with VERY thin soles also, we live on rocks and hills. He is barefoot now, but it has been a long haul. How did your vet determine his soles were thin? I think if I were you I would start with some radiographs just to see how thin his sole are. There can be many reasons, and depending on what the reason is could help you make the decision. Some horses with thin soles need shoes, because there is nothing else that will change it....such as genetics.
If your horse has thin soles because of poor trimming, founder, or other mechanical reasons he may be able to go barefoot someday by fixing the cause.
As Julie said there is a lot of info on this site, also many people dealing with thin soles.
Good luck to you and your horse.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 7:10 am:
Hello Janice,
My condolences on your recent problems. Let's see what can be done about the horse. First what do you mean by "pricked the sole"? Also does your farrier agree with the assessment that the soles are very thin? If everyone agrees on this to what cause has this been attributed?
DrO
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 9:39 pm:
Janice,
I feel for you as I read about your situation. When we are not well ourselves and are facing financial limitations, caring for our horses is that much more difficult. The above posts offer great advice. Its seems that step one is to assess the situation and determine if everyone is in agreement about the condition and needs of Titan's hooves. Step two would be to figure out how to provide for his needs given all the variables, and that includes your financial and personal limits and concerns.
I think Julie is right - there may very well be a middle ground here that is not immediately apparent. Things are rarely as black and white as they may at first sometimes appear. Sound relationships are reciprocal: Since you value your farrier and your vet so highly, they likely value you as a client and will want to help you work out the best arrangement for you and your horse.
This board is a great source of support however you choose to proceed. Best wishes to you and Titan. Let us know how things go.
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 11:39 pm:
Thanks everyone. My health concerns are supposedly being taken care of by specialists who give me no advice to help me get better because no one can come up with a diagnosis.
I've emailed my farrier and asked her if Titan's soles and walls were thin when she first started shoeing him (which is since I got him in September/06).
My vet can be pushy. I got an email from a friend of a friend saying she has not heard great things about my farrier. I heard about this farrier from a lady who rehabilitates horses and has used her for over 8 years. I've asked the person who heard these "rumors" to tell me what these things are because it's useless to me to have her say what she has heard but not tell me what it is. I've been at every shoeing she has done on both Titan and my older horse, Abe, except for about 2. So I've been right there to see what she is doing. I need to know what the rumors are in order to make an informed decision to change farriers if necessary. When I suggested that to my vet she said adamantly "Don't change farriers. She is a great farrier." I can't afford sending Titan to a place where they have spongy bricks for the horses to stand on in paddocks for $500 and I expect the cost of a trim every few days is on top of that. I am uncomfortable driving the distance to that place to see Titan. One thing I can say based on first-hand experience is that when I started using this farrier, when she took one of the front shoes off my older horse's foot, Abe's sole was black and bruised. Now they are white. I would think that's a good thing. Also the prior farrier had him walking on his sore heels and this farrier totally changed that. My vet says to send him to this expensive place for 6 months to a year where they are standing on these soft bricks or whatever they are - but what happens when he comes back to his normal environment? I think he would be in a paddock by himself. I have never boarded my horses where they are kept in a paddock by themselves. I've always boarded where they can socialize with other horses. Titan is an extremely friendly horse. He loves my older guy Abe who I have to bring into the barn when Titan has his feet done or Titan gets upset.
In response to Dr. Oglesby, I go to almost all the shoeings and I saw what happened. There was a strange noise outside (Titan isn't a spooky horse) but it made him jump and he landed on a nail. My farrier showed me and there was a little hole on his right front foot. My vet said when she used the hoof testers on his feet, he went straight up in the air. Apparently an abscess developed where the nail went in - I assume that is where it developed. If she was just testing that foot, of course he would jump. I don't know if she tested the other foot. I recall at the vet check the vet said that he had flat feet. My farrier (about whom apparently not great things have been said) has got his front feet to be no longer flat and to be in the shape of a cup.
My farrier thinks he would do fine where he is right now with boots and pads on - I am unclear if this is with or without shoes.
So I have a vet who says one thing I can't afford, a farrier who says another, another person who says she hasn't heard good things about my farrier. This starts me wondering if I should change farriers. I just don't know what to do. I've had Titan since September 2006. He was lame the winter of 2006 because he was walking on frozen ground - my vet thought his feet were bruised. When the ground thawed he was fine. The only other time he was lame is now, after a nail going into his sole. That to me, being an uneducated lay person, does not sound like a horse with bad feet and lameness problems. I think my vet thinks he should go shoeless to harden his feet. I think my farrier thinks he probably could but staying at the place he is boarded. Then there are those doubts from what this person says she has heard about my farrier. If she won't tell me what they are, she shouldn't have raised the issue in the first place.
I suspect the abscess will clear up - the lady who runs the place says he was better today - he could continue on with the heart bar shoes he was wearing and wouldn't be lame. Does he have thin soles because my farrier takes off too much?
I am so lost.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 - 5:29 am:
Hi Janice, The best thing you can do is educate yourself about your horses hooves. That way you can make informed decisions about his feet. There are MANY articles in here about hooves. Rumors are just that, you can find any farrier or vet that someone has something bad to say about them.
An abscess does take awhile to get better, hopefully the nail didn't hit anything important in the hoof. There is an article in here about that I think. I have read all of Dr.O.'s articles many times, because of my horses thin soles and founder. He is now sound and barefoot because of this. I would not hesitate to shoe him however if he becomes sore.
WHY is your horse wearing heartbar shoes? Have you ever had his hooves x-rayed?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 - 6:35 am:
Janice, Diane is right education is the key. No one can judge your farrier's performance from behind their computer screen. By understanding the basics you become able to judge. This all seemed to start with a nail penetration which would have nothing to do with a thin sole. Is your horse normally sore following trimming and shoeing? For more on this see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Wall Cracks and Thin Sensitive Soles but you should also visit the sections in the horse care topic on routine foot care, trimming and shoeing.
By the way was the abscess opened and drained?
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 - 6:36 am:
Hi Janice. Perhaps you could post pictures of your horse's hooves, taken of the sides fronts and soles.
This would not only show the state of his feet, but also would allow DrO and knowledgable others to give their opinions of your farrier (who to me sounds good, based on what you state. Personally I would never dismiss somebody whose work I was pleased with on the basis of a rumour.)
If you do have your horse's feet x-rayed as Diane suggests, you could post the x-rays too for DrO's comments.
All the best.
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 - 10:11 pm:
Diane - no his feet have not been x-rayed and from using this vet for a few years, I know she does not hesitate to x-ray if it is needed. When my farrier started to do his feet when I got Titan in September 2006, his feet were completely flat in front. She wanted to get rid of that. So she first tried natural balance shoes but she decided a few months ago that she wasn't getting the results she wanted so she switched to heart bars. Within 3 shoeings his front feet went from being totally flat to having a nice cup shape. I realized when I went to pick out his hoof I had to keep digging - before his feet were so flat, there was nothing much to dig out.
Rumors are so mean and damaging. I am a lawyer and I hear all kinds of things about other lawyers and I give it no weight unless I experienced it first hand.
My farrier is always educating me. She shows me things. She explains what she is doing. She always shows up. I had a farrier before who didn't. She calls if she is going to be very late. As I said above, I got her as my farrier on a recommendation from a lady whom I respect who rehabilitates horses and she has used my farrier for about 9 or 10 years.
I had emailed my vet saying why I wanted Titan to stay where he is. I read her reply today and she said "if (my farrier) thinks that boots and pads will work at (the place I board) then I am all for it." Obviously this wouldn't happen until his abscess was healed. I haven't been out there - because of all my physical problems, I can't seem to do much of anything. But I am pretty sure she drained it because there was a dressing on it that had to be changed. The lady who runs the place I board at (it is her late stepfather's property) is wonderful. She soaked my friend's horse who had an abscess every day and didn't charge my friend a cent. She takes Titan on trail rides as I am not yet brave enough to. Her daughter has lessons on Titan. A 2-year-old rode him. So I've got a number of people caring for Titan whom I trust.
I will take pictures of Titan's feet once the dressing is removed. My vet suggested putting the shoe back on for now. She said that "Pulling the shoes on a horse like Titan is a long process with ups and downs, something that requires a little mental fortitude.
He never had shoes for 6 years before I bought him so I would think the transition wouldn't be that difficult. I could be wrong but if he had never been barefoot, I could see it being a difficult process but since he's been barefoot for a longer period than he has worn shoes and given that his soles are no longer flat, hopefully it will go well.
With respect to Dr. Oglesby's question about whether he is sore after shoeing - never, not once. When she takes his shoes off, sometimes he is uncomfortable standing on it but my trainer has ridden him right after having his shoes put on with no problem. Titan has been lame twice since I got him in September 2006, once when the ground was frozen and hard and my vet said his feet were probably bruised - that cleared up as soon as the ground thawed. This other time is now. I just reread my vet's email and she says the abscess is coming out of the frog so it sounds like it was drained.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 5:25 am:
Glad Titan is coming along . I wondered about the heartbar shoes and x-rays because anything I have read suggests the horse should be x-rayed for proper placement of them.
It does sound as if he has thin soles if he becomes sore and bruised on hard ground....x-rays would tell you how much sole he has and what would be a good way to trim him. Hopefully no more guessing then.
IF Titan has thin soles I would agree with your vet pulling the shoes can be full of ups and downs, I've been going through that with my horse and cross my fingers every time the ground freezes hard that the boy will be able to walk. It took a long time and a different farrier, but he is sound now barefoot on all ground. Good luck hope you feel better soon.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 7:42 am:
From the information you provide Janice, it is hard to find fault with the farrier and farrier's advice.
DrO
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 11:06 pm:
As it turned out, the vet said she agrees with my farrier. I just talked to my farrier and she said it would be ideal for Titan to go to this fancy place with rubber bricks -- but what happens when he comes back to his regular environment after spending all that money and he goes lame? She said to go from shoes to no shoes everyone has to be committed to make it work including the added expense of more frequent trims. I asked her if she could do the trims and she said yes (she has made his sole change shape from flat to cup-shaped with about 3 shoeings with the heart bars). I asked her if I could ride him at first (right now it is my little 10 or 15 minute walk trot rides) and she said it all depends on the horse. She said she wants to talk to my vet to determine the best approach so there is a better chance of success. She said x-rays would be good, at least of the one that got the nail stuck in it so she could see if it was your usual abscess or there was more damage. I told her that the lady who runs the barn has seen improvement every day. The lady who runs the barn said that on Mar. 24 he had barely a limp. I left a message for my vet to do x-rays of both front feet as they are going out there tomorrow to give Titan and Abe their West Nile vaccinations anyway. So it looks like both are working together to do the best thing for Titan. I asked my farrier if she could do the trims and she said yes. I was pleased because the woman who owns the fancy place where my vet wanted Titan to go it appears has only had a one year course in the Strasser method and one-year's training isn't very long and also I know that method is controversial. So I would rather have a farrier who does the same thing for every horse. My farrier, when I asked her her opinion on barefoot vs shoes she said she's not one way or the other and it depends on the horse. Actually, she seems to answer all my questions with "It depends on the horse". I'd rather have her do the trims because I know she has years of experience. Also I learn a lot from her because she is always educating me when she is working on my horses and pointing out different things to me. I could tell from what she said tonight that she thinks it is a big change to go from shoes to no shoes and everyone involved has to be prepared to do what is required. I am glad she takes it so seriously.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 5:51 am:
Sounds like a good plan Janice, maybe Titan will surprise you and have no problem with the transition. Your farrier is right it depends on the horse. Hope the x-rays show a healthy foot and all will be well. It would be great if you could post them here. Good Luck
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 6:33 am:
I'll try to remember to take my camera on Saturday. I don't know if she is going to start with the boots on Saturday - if so I couldn't take any photos - I would think she might wait until she comes to do their feet next time. Probably it will depend on how the abscess looks. The heartbar shoe didn't cover where the nail went in but it sounds like the abscess was coming out of the frog? So the shoe would need to be off for it to drain. If Titan went for 6 years without shoes and the people who owned him before the lady I bought him from were members of some back country mountain club or something so I suspect he was going over all kinds of terrain without shoes. After I bought him I had his registration papers with the American Quarter Horse Association which had the name and phone number of the owner before the lady bought him whom I bought him from. He was actually her husband's horse and he had to stop riding because of his back. All he did is rave about his disposition and what a wonderful horse he was. That just confirmed my impression of him.
I really hope he can go barefoot and harden up his feet. My farrier takes it very seriously and wants to talk to my vet so they have a plan of how to do this. I have to say I sure don't have any complaints about my farrier. She's getting the boots for me and said she has pads so maybe she'll start this weekend. I could probably quickly take photos before she puts the boots on if she does it on Saturday. I recall her taking photos a long time ago. She seems very conscientious and has been my farrier for over 2 years.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 7:59 am:
Janice if he was barefoot for so long why did they decide to shoe him after all that time?
There are alot of people on here going thru the barefoot journey, and it can be fraught with ups and downs. Sounds like you have a good farrier and that is the first step...they seem to be hard to come by! It has taken my horse about 2 yrs. to be able to go barefoot comfortably, he has thin soles and has foundered. His hooves were a mess and I didn't even realize how bad they were until I posted pics here....it's been quite an education.
Keep us updated on your progress and good luck.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 12:30 am:
Janice,
May I suggest that you visit www.easycare.com, I think that you will find a lot of information and support in your journey to go barefoot. They sell many brands of boots as well as pads for transitioning to going barefoot. My mare Shimmeree has very round front feet and she needed Old Macs original boots, the Easy Boots would come off. I have four horses and they are all barefoot. My farrier learned to trim from Gene Ovnichek( not sure how to spell his last name) and I save a lot of money by not shoeing. They all have beautiful hard feet and I would only put metal shoes on as a last resort.
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 1:46 am:
Thanks Cynthia - I'll look at that website. That is why I asked my farrier to buy boots for him. I was thinking only in terms of quality but she said there are different kinds. She is certainly in a much better position that me to buy them.
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 1:49 am:
I just thought of something regarding taking photos of Titan's feet. My farrier would probably appreciate having photos of his feet before each trim because it can be hard to remember a year from now what his feet looked like now.
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 1:52 am:
Cynthia - that link you gave was to a car service company. Don't think that was what you intended me to look at!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 5:34 am:
I think the website is https://www.easycareinc.com/
Yes pictures during his transition really helps as you can see from my thread above duallying hooves, the dramatic changes. I take pics after every trim.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 11:35 pm:
Sorry Janice,
Diane E. Thanks that's the site I was trying to give Janice. The site is really helpful on sizing your horses feet, the first pair of easy boots I bought at the local tack store. Then I found out about easy care and all the brands they carry. They also tell all about the people who go bare including endurance riders, eventers and police officers. After I measured my mares feet per their instructions and compared the sizes I found out that Old Macs were the best fit. Their prices were also very good and they ship promptly. I recommend pads for inside the boots because it has been found that it helps the frog function as it is supposed to. I used the boots only when I rode, though if he is very sore you could use them until he gets better and it will encourage him to exercise. The more he moves the better for his feet.
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