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  Discussion on Horse Falls Under Saddle...ouch!
Author Message
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 9:53 am:

I am at my wit's end, and need help! My 7-year-old Appendix, Baron (who is almost all thoroughbred, BTW) fell on me yesterday while on a ride and nearly broke my leg. This is the third time he has fallen with me, and I think my days are numbered unless I can figure out what is wrong. I just don't see other horses falling like that. Believe me it is not pleasant!

Here is the history: I bought him as a very rank 3 1/2 year-old from a girl who wanted him as a barrel horse. At 17.1, it was pretty unlikely he would be any good. While he is patterned for barrels, I don't think he was run much with them, as quite frankly she had trouble riding and handling him. I did have a presale done, he passed with flying colors.

I started taking dressage lessons on Baron, and riding him on trails. As I said before, he is a lot of horse, and was VERY ill-mannered on the ground. After a few months, he ended up running me over and stepping on me several times, which put me in the trauma center and put him at a trainer's for a year to learn some manners. I still took him out once or twice a month for a nice trail ride, and under saddle he has never been a problem. We finally worked out his ground manner issues (biting, rearing, pulling away, etc) and now he is a good boy. Almost perfect.

So...I built my own barn and arena, moved all of my horses to my own place, but due to construction and a really crummy winter last year, all my ponies had the winter off. I started exercise gradually. There was one incident in the spring when we were in a creek with mucky footing and Baron got squirrelly and started to rear, then went over on his side and pinned me between him and the bank. We were both OK, and while not a good thing, I attributed the behavior to the footing under the deep water.

I started taking dressage lessons again, finally. My trainer gave me a few lessons, then rode Baron. He was noticeably lame at a trot. That was in October and he has been lame on both hind legs at a trot under saddle ever since. I had him x-rayed and he has mild arthritis of both lower hock joints. I have had him on Cosequin w. MSM for 12 weeks now, and use Surpass when I ride him. I have not trotted him under saddle since October except just a couple of very short times to see if there is any progress. No improvement.

I have had a massage therapist out, she found a very tender spot in the middle of the back, right under where the rider would sit. My saddles have been checked, no problem. Two chiropractic adjustments have yielded no answers/improvement. Baron lives outdoors in a lean-to with a 75-foot run. I have seen him do some amazing 180-degree turns on his haunches, but have also seen him fall recently while playing out there. Did he slip in the wet footing, or was there another problem that caused it?

There was an incident in the fall when we were cantering on a path in a flat meadow, and we turned a very gradual corner; his feet went out from under him and he fell with me. He seemed shaken but OK, and no damage to me either.

Now, yesterday, I took him down our lane with one of my boarders for a short ride. Both horses spooked a little, and the other horse turned and headed back for the barn. Baron crow-hopped a couple of times, then went on his haunches and then fell flat on his side with me under him. Yes, I was a little off-balance due to the crow-hopping but I know a lot of smaller horses who do fine with their riders hanging off one stirrup.

Where do I start? Is this behavioral? I have been through so much with this animal, I don't want to give up on him, but I lost one of my nine lives yesterday. Any suggestions?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 10:26 am:

WOW.

I am thinking back pain, muscle weakness right off the top of my head. How about doing some exercise with lunge line, and side reins? Has this been done? And go back to square one, with all ground training. It may be a pain issue, may be a learned behavior but I am thinking something painful is causing some behavior issues. I wonder if x-rays would show a fracture anywheres? Pelvic area? I doubt he's falling on purpose, and it may be that sometimes something hurts, and then he falls, other times, he's o.k. Kinda like if you have a pinched nerve in your back. You can walk, bend maybe, but twist wrong and fall down! That did happen to me years ago...and I wasn't carrying anything on my back.

Ya, check all avenues for pain, than back to square one might be the thing to do. Curious to see what others come up with. Let us know what happens with him...and geesh, stay off his back; don't try see how many more lives you have left!
Member:
zarr

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 11:44 am:

This comes from left field but here goes! Are his hooves balanced?? My friends horse went thru this kind of falling and EVERYTHING was checked to no avail! Finally the farrier saw a fall and started evaluating hooves and they were not in sync/balance for this horse and caused the trouble ? Just another possibility ........... Cindy
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 12:42 pm:

The previous trainer did the 'square one' thing with him...started with putting the halter on nicely, standing in cross-ties quietly, leading, etc etc. I told him to treat him like he was a little baby who knew absolutely nothing. So, at 17.1, he became "Baby Huey". He got to the point that the trainer's 4-H kids could handle and ride him...at least those who weren't afraid of his size. He came back a totally different animal. I think he just got off to a bad start and learned that his size could intimidate people. It was a fun game but the trainer put an end to it. We still have some small issues, but they are manageable and his heart isn't in it any more.

The longeing with side reins won't work yet, at least until we get him sound enough to do it. When I put him on a longe line, he rips and tears for a while, so I haven't longed him since the hock issue came up. He gets so sore that he can barely trot.

Baron is currently barefoot. I usually shoe him in front for the summer. While I know some farriers can cause huge issues, mine seems to be doing a good job. (although when I took him for x-rays I did have the vet double-check his angles and the trim. He measured him, and was actually able to tell me who the farrier is. Said his feet look excellent. )

Thanks for the two suggestions...I don't want to come off sounding like a know-it-all, but I am so wanting to get this resolved and have done so much to try and get this pony sound. I would really like to ride him for a solid year!!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 1:59 pm:

Dieliz,

No where do I hear you sounding like a know it all; hope I didn't sound that way to you! Sounds like you've done lots already to try to get answers. I've got a rather goofy gelding and although he don't fall, he's just not normal, and your post sounded like a place I could get a hint of something to try with my over reactive goofy gills. Going to the beginning of his training, looking for pain, and balanced feet are all part of what I've tried so I feel your frustration I think.

As for the falling thing, a few months back my 19 year old mare was walking really strange...legs crossing over behind, and she couldn't lower her head easily. She fell in the barn aisle twice just crossing it to her stall; I can't imagine what would have happened riding her! All I know is I saw signs of someone hitting a fence post, and she was acting hurt.

And I had a colt many years ago, who at age 7, still would fall if he turned really sharp going around a corner, his rear end would like give out. I never resolved what the issue was, and never rode him faster than a jog. Not to scare you, but he ended up breaking his front leg in a canter around the pasture...maybe because for many years he carried more weight on that one leg to balance himself? Don't know, but please be careful until you get some answers. Just being beside him on the ground could be dangerous.

Can you post a picture of him? Side view? And from the rear at least? Maybe someone will notice something that will help.
Member:
goldshoe

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 5:02 pm:

I applaud your determination and bravery for riding him thus far, however I would discontinue that for now. Have you ever had any neurological testing done on him. Has he ever had a nuclear bone scan or do you have any recent x rays of his back. I would think his behavior is related to pain he is experiencing, could be his sacrum. Mild arthritis of the hocks, in my experience, shouldn't make him as lame as you are describing, but each horse is different. The chiropractor was an excellent idea, especially with all the falls your horse has taken. the nuclear scan is expensive, however, it may save you a ton in the long run. Best of luck
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 8:48 pm:

I have a call in to the chiropractor, and will go over his findings again just so I am sure what we discussed. Good idea to post a photo; I will get one this weekend (and might need some help sizing it for the forum...no good at 'puters at all!!) No neuro testing has been done to date.

As far as riding him, I am pretty much afraid to do much with him. I had been just walking him in the arena; he was fine with that. Although he gets pretty frisky in the pen, I won't let him loose in the arena because the footing (sand, not too deep) seems to make it worse.

The original plan for the hocks, after extensive research and reading Dr. O's wonderful articles over and over and over, and talking with two vets was to:
1. Rest, Cosequin w. MSM, Surpass, then walking for short periods gradually progressing to about 30 minutes/day. Light trotting after that just to test lameness, then progressing if no issues.

2. If #1 didn't work, then we try either Adequan or Legend IM series. Exercise program as above.

3. If #2 didn't work, we need to discuss either intraarticular injections (which I really don't want to do) or chemical arthrodesis (which scares me if it doesn't work). So, I really really hope we can quit at #2, but now I feel as though there is something else going on. I agree that falling was way out of proportion with his current diagnosis.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 6:35 am:

Hello dieliz,
To answer your direct questions
1) You start by not riding this horse again unless a cause is found and corrected. Each of the events you describe could have resulted in more severe injury or even death.
2) Your second step should be a thorough lameness/neurological exam preferably by a veterinarian experienced in these fields.
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 7:51 am:

Thanks, Dr. O. You are right about the riding, even at a walk. Of course I'm grounded right now anyway; it's hard to get on the mounting block with crutches!

In all seriousness, I will make an appointment today with another vet. While I don't believe the first one actually mis-diagnosed, I also think there is something else going on with this animal besides the hock issue. I'll keep you posted!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 8:57 pm:

Dr. O is right on, for YOUR SAFETY and that of your horse. Also, I have to agree with Cindy about making sure that the feet are perfectly balanced -- laterally and medially. Unless a horse is tripping over something specific, most times poor farrier work has been the problem with horses that I have known who trip or fall a great deal, though some riders have stated that EPM has caused falling in their horses. I have had two of my horses go down with me a few times due to stepping into very deep holes or tripping over dogs that suddenly got under them. My boys have always been very good about taking care of me, careful not to roll sideways and allowing me to stay safely in position in the saddle. After the fall they carefully stand back up, never coming close to causing me injury. Anytime I have ever fallen off of them, they immediately stop forward motion and wait for instruction. This is the kind of personality that I like to have in my riding horses. There are many good horses out there, and if we fall in love with and cannot part with those who are not reliably safe under saddle, it is good to retire them if we can possibly afford to do so (can we afford to do otherwise and risk serious injury?)
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 7:05 am:

I have an appointment at the University of Illinois Large Animal Clinic on Tuesday next week. Both my regular vet and the vet I talked with there suspect a neurological problem. His symptoms by far outweigh the physical findings in the hocks. He has been trimmed since the x-rays were taken, but the vet who did them thought his feet looked excellent. I will remember to mention that at U of I, however, just to get their opinion.

Believe me, riding him is totally out of the question! Besides, I have seven others that are sound and safe!

Baron's one saving grace is that he made a decision NOT to step on me when I was on the ground. It was pretty scary, and I was screaming at him like a sailor (*blushes profusely*) but he stopped and put his foot down next to my chest instead of stepping on me. Thank God! Musta been the carrots before the ride, eh?
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 9:01 pm:

Just to clarify the 'plan of attack' on Baron, I wanted to be sure it was understood that the plan was put into place BEFORE he fell on me. Everything is out the window until we determine what is really wrong with the poor boy.
It kinda sounded as though I was still planning to get on him again. Not enough wine in the world for that!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 29, 2008 - 5:41 pm:

Glad to hear this! Good luck with Baron.
Member:
mysi

Posted on Saturday, Mar 29, 2008 - 8:23 pm:

dieliz,
glad to hear your taking your boy in for a complete exam. My horse and I are a shining example of the need to do that. We had an accident and he was slightly off after(more weak in the hind than lame) and we did the injections of the hocks, then the stifle and sacrum. I did the adequan (he's still on it monthly). He was great, then one day a few months later he fell with me on him and busted his knees open. Recovered fabulously from that and sound. We started a structured work program. He fell again, no injury that time. He was always very heavy in the front and tripped occasionally (the vet said it was laziness). On our first canter, next day lame. We blocked from head to toe with nothing. Did a bone scan and the areas of major concern were not ones we ever looked at. It was his RF Elbow and LH pastern.

My point...things are not always what they seem, sometimes they are not the common hock/feet area that trainers and vets usually assume.

Good luck at your appointment, I hope you get good news!
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Saturday, Mar 29, 2008 - 10:16 pm:

OK, now I gotta vent! My regular vet doesn't have x-ray equipment, and referred me to a vet about an hour drive from my home. I had over $300.00 of films taken of Baron's legs. The second vet came out and told me what the findings were, but I didn't see the x-rays. I did tell him that my regular vet was on vacation and I was sure he would want to see the films on his return. No problem.

So, due to the referral, I called the office and explained the reason I had been referred to the University. I asked if they could please send a copy of the films prior to my appt. I was told that they can no longer have the films copied, and since they have the only set, they cannot let them leave the office. Is that a crock or what? So now I have another 300.00 to look forward to spending! Grrr....I thought the films were my property??
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Sunday, Mar 30, 2008 - 8:20 am:

My suggestion would be to call the University - speak to the lead Vet Baron will be seeing. Explain what has happened and ask him to call to get the x-rays so you won't have to spend another wad of money. I've never had a Vet refuse to provide x-rays to another Vet.
Cheryl K
Member:
goldshoe

Posted on Sunday, Mar 30, 2008 - 10:34 pm:

Not only do you need access to those x rays to save money, your current vet also may need them to compare to any new x rays taken at the university to look for changes etc. You paid for the films, and most vets will send them to other vets without question. If possible, in the future, seek out a vet who has a digital x ray machine, and ask to have the images put on a disc for you to keep. I would think the university hospital could do this. I can imagine your frustration. Best wishes for Baron at his vet appointment.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Friday, Apr 4, 2008 - 11:57 am:

Thanks for the suggestion, Cheryl. The lead vet at the U of I called and the films are being sent. So nice of him, eh?

Just as an update, Baron has been at the clinic since Tuesday. They have done a neuro test, which he passed, then a lameness exam which he of course failed. They did a bone scan, which lit up at C5-6, the navicular in front and the stifle in back. Not good. Please pray for us, as after reading the articles on stifle problems, I am pretty scared right now.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 11:46 am:

Which leg was observed as being lame dieliz and where in the leg did the lameness localize to? Neither radiographs nor gamma scanning replace this most important first step.
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 7:34 am:

I went to get my boy, and had a long discussion with the vet at the U of I, as well as looking at the films (like I knew what I was looking at...!!)

Dr. O, to answer your question, the lameness exam correlated to the findings on the x-rays. Here was what was found...I think I have it all, but will make any corrections when I get the written report:

Right front foot: small ringbone, no clinical significance (no lameness on exam)
Left front foot: small ringbone, Grade 1 navicular, and pedal osteitis, probably from an abcess that could not be drained this past winter.
All four soles were found to be very bruised, which was concerning, as he is turned out in a 75-foot run with screened fill sand in the outside area. Even if he hits a rock or two, it should not cause the bruising that they found. His soles were also very calloused, which is probably what made him pretty stoic about the hoof tester when he had the abcess.
Right stifle: Very small dark area on head of tibia which might be an OCD lesion but of such small significance and no clinical findings, i.e., lameness, so she did not feel this was causing any problem and would not even say it is definitely an OCD.
Left stifle: Same as above only even smaller. He did have some evidence of arthritis on the tibial head.
Both hocks: Mild arthritic changes
Cervical spine: mild arthritis at C5-6 and C6-7

Recommendations:
The farrier there trimmed him and gave him a better rollover in the toe. He wants him to have steel shoes with pour-in pads (he didn't have time to do it; my farrier can get that done)
HA injections in the hocks and stifles
Chiropractic eval for the cervical spine and possible injection there as well. There are two very good DVM/chiros in our area who both trained and did their residency at the U of I and both are highly recommended, so I am lucky there. They can both do injections and/or manipulation.

As far as future useability, they felt that the horse can be sound for what I do; maybe not extreme trail riding, but I have several other horses that can handle that (steep hills, rough terrain, etc. I don't do that often anyway). They said he would be least comfortable as a dressage horse at the higher levels, as continued work with him rounded and moving off his hindquarters might exacerbate his problems.

Of course I still have no definite answers as to what caused him to fall. Dr. Pallen felt that when I cranked his head to the left to stop him from bolting, then he sat back on his haunches it likely caused pain in both areas. He was barefoot and we were riding next to our gravel lane. If he stepped on one of the big rocks from the drive base, or even stepped on uneven ground it might have thrown him off balance enough that he just couldn't catch himself. Or he was trying to get away from the pain? Of course she recommended a slow return to riding after above recommendations have been implemented. He is a very big boy at 17.2 and 1425 lbs. and that much weight is hard to stop when it starts to go.

Any thoughts?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 10:29 am:

I still don't see which leg was found to be lame and where in the leg is was localized to. Many sound horses have such radiographic lesions.
DrO
Member:
mysi

Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 10:30 am:

dieliz,

I am no expert by any means, but did they block him after the findings to see where the lameness was coming from?

It sounds like the real issues seem to be the feet. I wouldn't think that the Mild/Minor arthritic changes in the hocks and stifles wouldn't be that much of an issue, nor would I think it would need injections yet either (unless he blocked in those areas). Again, I am no expert and I'm sure Dr. O will have better input. In my quest with Moose injecting the hocks and stifles was the first thing I did after x-rays showed arthritic changes. Did it help? Yes. Solve the real problem? NO. But he was twice your horses age (and 17.2 as well) and was heavily jumped before I got him, so he was probably due a little maintenance. It will probably help your horse, but will it solve the problem???

On Moose's scan they found issues in the hocks, knees, T spine, RF elbow and both pasterns. (Funny no stifles and that was the area we initially xrayed and had arthritic changes). But all of those areas had been blocked 3 days before the scan with no results, except we did not block the T spine or Elbow. So the day after the scan we blocked the elbow and the lameness was gone. Yes, the scan showed areas of concern, but blocking will define where the actual lameness is coming from. I did x-ray all the areas of concern and there were arthritic changes in all the joints, nothing major except the LH pastern was really bad, but he was not lame there. Again, proving blocking is necessary to find out where the real lameness is coming from.

Don't you wish they could just tell us what hurts!
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 9:13 pm:

I can't believe I left that out. He was blocked after the bone scan, and was totally sound when the front feet and both stifles were blocked. As there appear to be no bony abnormalities in the front feet other than the bruised soles, I would assume that is what is causing the pain?

They did not block the hocks as there was minimal findings on x-ray and they felt from their lameness exam that the problem was coming from the stifle. The recommendation to inject hocks was probably due to my relating that the prior vet had recommended it. I will wait for the written report to verify this.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 9:18 pm:

And to, hopefuly, answer your question, Dr. O, the lameness exam pointed to the left hind stifle and both front feet.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 7, 2008 - 6:45 am:

Dieliz, no that is not a good assumption as radiographic lesions are not always associated with lameness and some lameness problems do not have radiographic lesions associated with them.

Surely they did these blocks one at a time? Doesn't the appearance of the lameness suggests either a front or back limb problem?
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Monday, Apr 7, 2008 - 7:11 am:

Yes, the blocks were done one at a time. The lameness is the reason they did the bone scan and the blocks.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 7, 2008 - 12:33 pm:

And what were the results of each of the individual blocks?
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Monday, Apr 7, 2008 - 10:17 pm:

The written report is supposedly on the way. I will review that and will post accurate information upon receipt. There was so much to take in, that although I tried to write some of it down, I know I'll be leaving out important details.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 7:24 am:

Sorry it took so long to get back. I have been consumed with trying to find what is wrong with this horse, to absolutely no avail. He is not only still lame but is far far worse than he was two months ago.
Here is the diagnosis from the U of I:
1. Left front palmar foot pain and pedal osteitis
2. Right hind limb lameness (resolved with intra-articular stifle anesthesia)
3. Left hind limb lameness (resolved with intra-articular stifle anesthesia)
4. Mild osteoarthritis of the cervical spine (c5-C7)
Neuro exam was normal. Conscious proprioception responses were slow in the front limbs. Significance of this is uncertain. (**when they crossed his front legs, his response time was maybe a couple of seconds longer than 'normal'. He was normal on all other tests***)
Exam revealed decreased ROM in both front fetlocks, mild right forelimb coffin joint effusion, decreased fetlock flexion, right hock effusion, resistance to cervical palpation bilaterally (more left than right), resistance to withers palpation, resistance to LS (r>l) and thoracic spine palpation (r>l). Initial lameness eval on straight line on hard surface revealed a mild (+1/5) r forelimb lameness that increased on flexion, a mild left hind lameness (+1/5) that increased on flexion and a moderate (+2/5) right hind lameness that increased with flexion. When trotting in a circle in both directions a left forelimb lameness was noted.
Nuclear scintigraphy revealed increased uptake in the right stifle, left forelimb navicular, right hindlimb fetlock and c6-7 region (left side). Bilateral palmar digital nerve blocks resolved the front limb lameness. a low plantar block in the right hindlimb showed no change in right hind lameness. Right femoropatellar, medial and lateral femorotibial joint blocks resolved the right hind limb lameness. The same blocks on the left hind limb improved but did not completely resolve the left hind limb lameness.
Radiographs of the left front foot showed pedal osteitis (lateral aspect) loss of corticomedullary distinction of the navicular bone, enthesiophytes at the insertion of the collateral ligaments of the navicular bone, and a 'spur' at the extensor process of the coffin bone. Radiographs of the cervical spine showed osteoarthritis of the caudal c-spine (mild c5-6, moderate c6-7). Radiographs of the stifles showed mild osteoarthritic changes of the caudal tibia bilaterally and a lucent area in the lateral trochlear ridge of the right femur (possibly OCD or bone cyst)
Trimming was performed on all feet. After trimming the horse was trotting more comfortable. All four feet appeared bruised.
Recommendations: steel shoes with sole paint, possible cervical, stifle and hock injections and/or acpuncture.

So, I had and appt with a DVM/chiro last week who adjusted him, finding what she called 'significant' rotation in the pelvis and of course stiffness in the neck. I then had both stifles and both hocks injected. He has been on GLC 5500 for two months, as well as having two injections of Adequan. I had my regular vet down yesterday to review all findings to date and to try to pull everything together, and we reviewed the films for over an hour. We then put him on a line to see what, if any, effect the injections have had. (injections were done one week ago).
Basically the horse is worse than he has ever been. I am so very disheartened. I have not ridden this animal since October except just a handful of times at a walk, and the last time, in March, he fell on me.
Any other suggestions? My vet pretty much suggested cutting my losses. He is obviously in pain (shifting weight from one leg to another in the pen) and is unwilling to move faster than a walk.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 8:37 am:

Good Lord, poor horse! And poor you.

I guess what I would do in your place is put a time limit on looking for improvement. During that time have a chiropractor adjust him, keep him on the supplements, make sure hooves are balanced (I'd go with boots, not shoes)in short, do all you can afford financially and time wise.

Only you can decide how long you will invest in him. There is no right or wrong answer. If his eyes tell you he is in pain and nothing gives him relief, then the kindest thing to do is cut your losses as the vet suggested.

Curious to see what DrO thinks of all diagnostic info you got.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 9:59 am:

Hello,

So I'm looking through all this and see only a grade 1 lameness on RF/LH on a hard surface. The resistance to palpation seems normal for a 7yo Appendix, at least in my experience. SO when he is much worse, can you localize the lameness?

Sometimes a horse has so many orthopedic problems that he just kind of falls apart, but it's also true that there are many sound horses with ugly x-rays. So when he is lame, someone needs to figure out where the pain is coming from. Horses don't read x-rays, so you only need to look at the problems that he "knows" about to start with, which means getting help to localize the lameness.

I guess if it were me I would do the reverse of what Angie suggests. I would eliminate the stuff that has no strong research to support it (most of the supplements, the Adequan and the chiro) and I would ask for a referral to a lameness specialist with a focus on performance horses who could help figure out which of all these findings is significant.

Because no one has yet offered you a strong explanation for why the horse is falling on top of you, and why he seems lame. Before you give up on him, perhaps you could find someone to help cut through all of this.

That being said, I admire your persistence. Those are a lot of findings for a young horse. Hopefully DrO can help you make sense of this.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 11:08 am:

Sometimes it's helpful just to have everything in writing and all together. The one thing that was missing in all the above is the fact that he threw a front shoe just before we went to the chiro/DVM and the vet who did the injections. They both recommended that I use Soft Rides until I could get him reset, which meant pulling the other front shoe (which I would have done anyway). We noticed that the pour-in pad on the right front was mounded in the center, which would have put a lot of pressure on the coffin bone...just what we were trying to avoid. So, we pulled the shoe, and I put on a set of Soft Rides...which my playful little butthead almost immediately pulled off. Velcro is a challenge to him.
He has been barefoot in front since, and although confined to his pen, he has been able to move around quite a bit (75-foot run). One thing that I am going to try is to have a good farrier out who specializes in remedial work. I have talked with him, and he has made some recommendations that make sense. He also suggested that a lot of the problems with the back end might actually be compensatory for problems from the front. So, I am going to invest a little more in some shoes and see what happens.
I know, it's the eyes that just kill me in all this. He has such kind eyes....
Member:
kstud

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 8:24 pm:

Hi Dieliz,
I have seen a couple of horses that were apparently lame with their feet and had hock and stifle changes etc on x rays that turned out to have lumbar spine problems. One had actually fractured the dorsal process and the fragment was being pulled forwards by the nuchal ligament and rubbing against the next dorsal process. Whenever this happened the mare would either bolt or collapse. It took years to diagnose and only after every other bony part had been examined! The other horse again presented as possible navicular and had hock changes. He had difficulty turning right and would lean in like a motor bike. He was diagnosed with kissing spines and Shock wave therapy transformed him. The mare also had shockwave and became rideable as long as it was repeated every month.
We are also getting very impressive results with Tildren in these "Hock and Hoof" cases so that may be worth investigating too. I think that it would be very hard to evaluate an improvement until the horse has pads on and even then he would need a few weeks for the bruising to settle. I always put pads on these horses and it makes them a lot more comfortable. The falling over is very frightening and dangerous so the pain must be quite severe that he would rather fall than use whatever body part is so sore to save himself. Best of luck and don't give up, eventually you will peel away the layers of secondary pain and find the real problem.
As an afterthought, occasionally similar signs can be seen in a horse with abdominal problems, I recall a case with a gelding that had a problematical castration and had been left with adhesions, he would collapse suddenly and the best description of him was that he never seemed to move right. Eventually he presented as a hind limb lameness and was diagnosed when he resented palpation of the inguinal area. Probably not relevant to your case but worth bearing in mind that you may not actually have found the main problem yet!
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 9:53 pm:

Funny that you should mention the lumbar spine. He moves like I did before I had back surgery. Although I am trying to put the brakes on additional diagnostics (a contrast study was recommended for the cervical spine to r/o an impingement. If positive, the outlook is not good. ???) but if the shoeing this weekend doesn't show marked improvements, then I wonder if films of the lumbar spine might not be warranted. It is interesting to note that the horse has no head-bob just shortened stride and kind of a 'paddle' when he trots and canters,
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 7:09 am:

Hello dielz,
The decision on what to do depends on your goals, which should realistically figure in your resources:
1) your goal for this horse
2) your goal for getting back in the saddle.

Once these are stated clearly a "prognosis" for your goal can be delivered and then you can move forward.
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 6:34 am:

My financial goals are pretty much met. I can't justify any additional diagnostics on him, as everything else that has been suggested is very costly and any positive results do not have positive recovery outlook.
I absolutely will not try to ride him again until he is sound again. If he could be a safe trail horse, that would be great. While I bought him for a dressage prospect, we are now four years later and have been able to take maybe eight lessons due to behavior/injury/construction/etc etc etc.
I was hoping, Dr O, that you might be able to give some insight as to something that we might have missed. If I can get another perspective from someone that has the ability to 'think outside of the box', and not just send me off on tangents as has been happening, maybe I can do something for this animal. Thanks!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 13, 2008 - 6:21 am:

It is not a matter of something missed dieliz, your post on June 10th is quite comprehensive and specific. To further pursue that post we have articles that deal with treating chronic heel and diagnosing lameness localized to the stifle. But all of this is going to require more commitment of time and money and as information develops a worsening prognosis for sound and safe is developing.
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Friday, Jun 13, 2008 - 7:08 am:

I guess I was hoping you could pull a rabbit out of your hat, Dr O. Like I said before, I needed to pull everything together and stop going off on tangents with diagnostics.

Anyone need a 1450 pound pasture buddy that...um...eats like a horse?
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Friday, Jun 13, 2008 - 3:17 pm:

Hi, one thing that I've found helpful with a never-rideable horse is to do some basic trick-training. Just bowing, shaking, etc.. Unbelievably, it helps a lot placing them as pets, and seems to help them stick where they are placed as well. Just a thought, if your horse seems to have some aptitude for it.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Saturday, Oct 11, 2008 - 10:02 pm:

OK, after several MORE months of rest, I think I have a direction to go. Sorry I haven't posted more, but have just been so so so busy with the boarding business (25 horses here now...ELEVEN are mine!!!)

Baron seemed to be improving, but then went downhill again. Riding him consisted of a brief session in the indoor arena, bareback, just to see if there was any improvement. Walking seemed better, then when he was put into a trot...it was like the horse was paralyzed.

I just had a farrier here yesterday who used to work at the U of Illinois. He watched the horse longe, and although he was somewhat lame, he didn't feel it was anything really significant. Then I saddled the horse and rode him. Wow! He was so lame at the trot! The farrier suggested that we need to look at a kissing spine or a spinal injury in the lower thoracic area. When I stood in the stirrups and took weight off his back, he was almost totally sound.

The farrier trimmed him pretty severely in front, gave him a drastic rollover, and special shoes which help him reach under himself and round his back. Bottom line: Baron is nearly totally sound just with that done.

I am going to have his thoracic and lumbar spine x-rayed with the hopes that it is, indeed, kissing spine and there are treatment options.

No, I am not going to ride the horse 'into the sunset' until we have a definitive diagnosis and treatment. I am not going to get my hopes up, but I am optimistic that we have some direction and might get him back to at least some light level of work! This has been such a long journey!!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 12:18 am:

Dieliz, it does sound like maybe you are on to something. I hope it works out for you and Baron and he becomes sound again. Good luck!
Member:
frances

Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 6:18 am:

Fingers and hooves crossed Dieliz that you've found the answer and it's treatable. Very best wishes to you both!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 8:42 am:

Hello dieltz,
You are mistaken to think that riding in the stirrups takes weight off the back: your weight is still supported by the back of the horse, it just is the pressure comes from the pull of the stirrups instead of the push or your rear end. If we assume there is not a new lameness going on isn't this inconsistent with what was found in April when the horse came sound with blocks to the stifle?
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 6:19 am:

Good point. He becomes sound with any block. Recently noticed front end lameness, again, and when the vet was here for spring shots, he blocked the front. The horse was totally sound until I got on him and rode him. Then he was lame in the rear. I understand the back pressure comment, it's just when I sit on the saddle it makes him lame again. When I stand in the stirrups, he is sound.

The front end lameness was totally resolved with a good trim with a rollover. He grows real fast in the toes, and I couldn't get the old farrier out, so he was past due. This farrier told me that we need to keep Baron on a strict 5-week schedule.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 - 7:27 am:

OK, I had the vet out and he took films of the spine. Two of Baron's vertebrae are definitely touching. This is just behind the wither...I can't remember the exact location...c-9 & 10??...but we have a preliminary diagnosis of kissing spine. The front end problems have nothing to do with this; he seems to be perfectly sound with proper shoeing and trim.

The x-rays have been sent to a vet at the U of I Large Animal Clinic who specializes in this condition. She feels that Baron's condition should be entirely manageable, and he should be able to return to some level of use and activity.

We're not out of the woods yet, but I think we've found the trail again!! Thanks for all your prayers!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 - 9:00 pm:

The problem with the radiographic finding is that kissing spines occurs in all horses. Let me repeat, studies of vertebral pathology in horses without evidence of back pain find all horses have some kissing spines. That is not to say that all are without pain. If this is suspect I think the best test is a generous infusion of lidocaine around the area to see if the problem goes away. For more on all this see the article associated with this discussion.
DrO
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2008 - 7:38 am:

Preliminary discussions with the vet at the U of I indicate that the plan will be exactly that. Then we will likely do shock wave therapy (I need to look into that further before giving OK) and injection if all goes according to plan. Of course Baron will find some way to hose this up!

Thanks for the great articles, Dr. O. I have read those and hope to go to the appointment with some knowledge under my belt to make some informed decisions
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 11:58 am:

So months later, I tentatively have my horse back. I started riding Baron in the arena on a limited basis and there is no sign of lameness, either in the rear or in the front. It's been a long, tough road for both of us.
It was determined that the back was the major source of pain. Dr Stewart at the U of I said that the lack of exercise is the worst thing I can do for this horse. I started a progressive exercise program using a surcingle and side reins to help get him rounded and in frame. I have been building his back muscles and getting him back in shape. Of course I thought he was truly lame, and so wasn't working him!

After several months of longe line, I 'bit the bullet' and rode him. There was, as I mentioned before, no sign of a problem.

Besides the exercise regimen, Baron is on a strict 5-week farrier schedule. I can tell toward the end of the five weeks that he's getting a little sore, and so back off until he's trimmed and reset. He has a pretty radical set of shoes, but seems to need those. I even took him back to the U of I and had a second neuro eval done, just to be sure nothing was missed.
I have just finished a round of treatment with a P3 magnetic therapy machine, which seemed to help him as well.
I am still cautiously optimistic, but it looks as though we are on the road to recovery. I know that the pedal osteitis and navicular in the front will always be an issue, but he seems to be comfortable with proper farrier work. The kissing spine (at T11/12 and 13/14) appears to be what was causing the problem in the back end. I have a couple of foam pads for my dressage saddle, and have a foam pad ordered for my trail saddle as well.
Thanks for all your help with this one, and keep your fingers crossed for us!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 11:57 am:

Thanks for the update and keep us appraised dieliz. I need to note for those reading that their is no evidence such "magnetic therapy" is of any benefit in such cases and not currently recommended by HA.
DrO
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 12:43 pm:

Great news! Just curious, how much lunging time did you work up to and for how many weeks before you rode?
Sure hope he stays sound.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 10:01 pm:

Well, how about that? Wonderful, dieliz, and appreciate the update. Just an aside, my little QH mare has been managed with navicular since the mid eighties....and in the mid eighties, we didn't know near what we know now. Best of luck!
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 8:14 am:

Thanks, everyone. Prayers DO work, don't they? And lots of hard work. Lori, because Baron was so out of shape, I started him with two minutes each direction on the longe line. I increased minutes each way every week at first. Then I added a minute or two every third day or so. I started this on October 31 when I got the official go-ahead, and just started riding him a couple of weeks ago. I longe him 5 or 6 days a week, and still longe before I ride. He is up to about 15 minutes each direction in a surcingle and side reins. I ride him in a German martingale to keep him rounded right now. Riding time will be increased as slowly as the longe line. Farrier trims are scheduled for every five weeks, and I have been told that he should NEVER go without shoes.

Dr O, I should have pointed out that the P-3 machine was granted to the U of I for a research study. Dr Stewart has used it on horses with kissing spine, and has noted some success with that. She cautioned me that there is no definitive data that shows that it works, but as there seem to be no side affects, I opted to try it. Baron tolerated the treatments very well, and actually seemed to enjoy them!

We finish with a massage on Thursday evening (the horse, not me!) and then back to work again.
Member:
frances

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 8:27 am:

What incredible news dieliz - and after such a long haul. So glad for you and Baron.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 10:42 pm:

Thank you Dieliz. It sounds like after all your hard work you should have a massage too.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 9:11 pm:

Sad to report that after nearly three years of problems with my big boy, I made the decision to euthanize him today. Baron was intermittently lame after I started riding him. He would improve, only to deteriorate again. The last time I rode him was mid-October, at which time he tried his best to buck me off. Keep in mind that he is 17.2 and almost 1500 pounds. Due to a very frantic holiday schedule and my limited time, he wasn't worked much until recently. Every time I attempted to longe him, he showed signs of lameness somewhere. Nothing major, but still present. He is kept in a 75-foot run outside so is able to still exercise, but not get up a full head of steam.
I longed him Saturday, and he was lame in the front this time. Even had a little head bob. I stopped, was bringing him from the arena to the barn aisle when he just tried to run over the top of me. I got hurt, again. For the last time. The horse's behavior has been declining...and whether it is due to pain or a 'screw' loose, I have had enough. I made arrangements for the U of I Vet School to take him for research. Happy Trails, my friend. I'll never know what was wrong with him for sure, but I take comfort knowing he is now pain-free. And won't hurt anyone again.
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 10:25 pm:

Periodically, i come to visit my beloved site for horses. Still a member after so many years. Sadly, i stumbled on this thread...

This post has beeen modified....
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:18 am:

dieliz, I'm very sorry that you had to make such a difficult decision. My condolences.

Fran
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 8:06 am:

My deep condolences dieliz.

I know it would help you greatly if Uni. of IL. will do a necropsy and report the findings. Is that in the plans?
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 10:06 am:

Dieliz - my sincere condolences. This had to have been a hard decision for you.
Take care,
Lilo
Member:
mysi

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 10:39 am:

Dieliz, my sincere condolences.
Melissa
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 10:47 am:

Dr. O, I asked them to report significant findings to me. My vet, the one that arranged the donation, was a resident vet at the U of I for several years. I hope that she will be able to get a copy of any reports/studies that are done. They are especially interested in his advanced DJD and the kissing spine. Whether his horrible behavior problems of late were due to pain or not, we'll probably never know. I just know that he was probably going to kill me.
And thank you for the edit...
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 12:50 pm:

Dieliz you have had a long uphill climb here. I re-read this entire thread today and learned a good bit from it.How frustrating for you to have worked so hard to hold onto him. I applaud your tenacity and powers of observation. Still,so sorry you had to make this painful decision. Not a fair outcome to be sure, but compassionate and wise.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 1:18 pm:

Dieliz, I echo Cyndy's sentiments. I also hope you get results from the university.

It would be good to know there was a problem.

After so many years or tying you have nothing to regret.
Have peace.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 4:56 pm:

I'm so sorry Dieliz. Euthanasia is always a hard decision. Take care of yourself.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 4:58 pm:

Dieliz, My condolences to you. You've been through the wringer with Baron for three years and after rereading the entire discussion, you have spent a ton of time and money trying to resolve his lameness/pain issues. I'm glad he's no longer in pain. So sorry you had to make the final decision. I hope the vet school can find the cause/source of his multiple problems. I'm glad you weren't seriously hurt. Sounds like he was getting progressively worse. I need an icon here for a hug and shoulder squeeze.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 5:04 pm:

So sorry to hear this sad news Dieliz.

You certainly did all that you could.

I hope that something can be learned thanks to your donation that may help other horses and their owners in the future.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:00 pm:

You are all so very kind. I was told two years ago by three vets to 'just put him down'. It just wasn't time. With the help of a great farrier, an outstanding vet, and lots and lots of TLC and work, we had two more good years. Thank you so much, my HA friends, for all your support, and yours, too, Dr. O. It really means a lot, and helps me get thru this.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 12:42 am:

We all must come to a decision like this in our own time. What you chose, dieliz, was safety. We must all realize that our own safety is paramount. Nothing trumps it. When we jeopardize our own health by knowingly risking physical harm, we place untold burdens on our families, and people and animals in our lives.

It was a good choice....made in your own time...when you were ready. A hard choice, but the good choice. So sorry.....
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 9:59 am:

Dieliz, I am so very sorry that all your efforts were to no avail in the end. You did everything you could and more; you both have peace now.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 10:20 am:

Dieliz,

My condolences, I know exactly what you are and were going through, I have been in that situation and it's a very rough decision to make.

I have a question. Since you donated your horse does the University make the decision when to euthanize, in other words do they try and determine before euthanization what the actual problem was physically ( above and beyond your own diagnostics)or are they able to use the horse for other programs because of the donation.

Just curious and I hope this question does not upset you.

Rachelle
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 10:58 am:

Rachelle, I think I'm over being upset, and don't worry about asking questions. I totally hope this experience of mine can help someone else in the future.
Baron was diagnosed with kissing spine and degenerative joint disease in the hocks and stifles, as well as Grade I Navicular and pedal osteitis in one of his front feet (right I believe). These were made by the U of I, so they were excited to be able to continue with their studies of him. I sincerely doubt that he will be kept for live research, other than maybe a cursory lameness exam, as he hurt me (again) and is considered dangerous because of that. At this point he's not vicious but still has no rules or boundaries. He's back to biting and pushing into people, and for some reason chose to just run right over the top of me on Saturday night. The University doesn't want anyone else hurt, so I imagine that he's already been put to rest.
If they chose to do live studies, they would have been able to do so, as technically he's their horse now.
The trainer who works out of my barn had a filly born here two years ago who unfortunately was positive for HERDA. She started developing lesions that wouldn't heal, and the prognosis for those cases is very grim. He was able to donate her to the University of Michigan, where there is an ongoing study of HERDA. His filly will be kept alive for as long as possible in order to continue their research. She is happy, well-fed, loved and is given lots of attention on a daily basis. She undergoes periodic needle biopsies which are minimally invasive. The difference between the two cases is that Samme is a sweet filly who wouldn't consider hurting someone. Baron is the opposite.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 12:46 pm:

Dieliz,

After reading the entire thread, it sounds to me as if this horse had a lifetime worth of issues before and after you acquired him. Its very hard to determine( Chicken or the egg kind of situation) whether his lameness caused his behavioral problems or his behavioral problems might have been the root problem to begin with brought more to the forefront by the lameness issues. It's hard to determine and now its a moot point.

Safety of yourself and others is a big issue, I wasn't even on my horse last week and he almost killed me(rearing and striking. It also why I do not let anyone else deal with him on a daily basis, all I need is a lawsuit because he bit someone's finger off because they were trying to pet him. (he is soon to be a gelding)and he either lives outside where no one but me handles him or inside behind a full gate( Which he is in very infrequently). I do not encourage this behavior, he does not get carrots, or any type of treats, other than his regular feed and he has been handled on a regular basis since he was 14 months old. My fear is that these habits he has are genetic, since his father( a well known sire of very fast racehorse) was put down last year because he savaged and almost killed one of his caretakers( not an isolated incident). I am hoping that by gelding him now and some retraining( clicker training), a lot of the bad behaviors will be reduced or eliminated.

My 20 year old gelding(we bred, raised, trained, raced and retired him) in my backyard was used by Rutgers University awhile back for a nutritional study on stress related shipping. They were doing nutritional research on a new feed that was supposed to reduce the stress of shipping. The study consisted of taking blood before loading, while on the trailer and after the trip( They basically road around the block for two hours several days a week)at the start, then they were put on the new feed (some were and some weren't, control group and test group) and then retested every two weeks for a six month period. I was able to go and visit him, he looked great, very well taken care of. I don't think he wanted to come home.

I got him back after the six month study was complete. I could have totally donated him, but at that point in time, I thought he needed to come home and here he stays.

My other Rutgers donated horse (16 years and counting)is a campus patrol horse and is still working (he's 21 and going strong) and to think this horse was almost euthanized as a 3 year-old due to a very bad leg infection, luckily his then owner(horse was leased to someone else) rescued him and I adopted him to nurse him back to health and back to the races.

Several different scenarios with different endings ( although with my colt I hope its a happier one than what happened to his sire. One never knows where its going to wind up.

We just have to take one day at a time to get through all the days of our horses lives.

Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 2:51 pm:

dieliz, I just read through this entire thread. What a journey you went through with this horse. I'll be very interested to hear what UofI comes up with. I'd almost bet money on some kind of brain tumor on top of all else he had going on due to his behavior.

You certainly did all you could for him. Kudos to you; I know it was difficult.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 9:06 pm:

It was, and still is, very hard. This thread just touches on all I have been through with this horse. After he ran over me the first time and put me in the trauma center, I immediately sent him to a trainer who had experience dealing with recalcitrant stallions. Kevin was VERY firm but fair. He started from the beginning, with basic ground manners and discipline for the biting. Baron spent a lot of time tied either in the arena or in his stall. He went from a near-rogue horse to one that could be safely handled and who understood his place and my space. During the year that he was at the trainer's I frequently took him out for trail rides. We often rode alone at one of the local parks, and I never had a second of trouble with him. Soundness was sometimes in question when we rode at a park that has a sand base. He would seem 'off' there, and would be grouchy when we got back to the trailer. Hills were an issue. When going downhill, he would frequently get 'stupid' and act up. Now I wonder if it was due to pain. Deep (ankle-deep) mud was also another issue. Once we were in a creek and the bottom got boggy. He freaked out, went back on his haunches and then fell over sideways with me. There most certainly the behavior caused him to move in a manner that caused pain.
I was cantering him slowly in a meadow here at home. We rounded a corner...nothing sharp, but his feet just went out from under him and he fell with me again. So, the horse has fallen with me three times (I sound as though I'm a really bad rider, but I do ride centered and balanced) and has run over me twice. Two trips to the trauma center, several near-misses with biting, he started trying to cow-kick me...I was done. I have nine other NICE horses and a husband, four dogs, two kids and a granddaughter who need me.
So...what took me so long?
I think that sometimes we just rationalize that we can try this one more thing...or love them just a little more...and everything will be fine. There was always that little tiny hope...
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 12:56 am:

I understand what you mean. We always hope we can "fix" whatever is wrong, but sometimes we just can't. It's a hard truth to face.

The only horse I've ever known that acted like what you describe was a horse that had a brain tumor, that is why I mentioned it. This horse boarded at our barn. He was a lovely TB, about 12 yrs. old. He was like having Dr. Jeckel and Mr. Hyde in the barn. His owner would sometimes have wonderful rides on him, on other days it was a miracle she survived. He would go for long periods being a sweet, normal horse; then suddenly without warning would turn into a monster. He got to the point where he became vicious and dangerous more and more frequently and had to be put down. It was very difficult for the owner; she felt she had failed. The vet asked if he could do a necropsey, and when he did he found a large tumor of the brain which he felt had caused the split personality. I hope I never seen this again. It's very scary and very sad as there is nothing that can be done. This was a very well trained horse; it didn't matter. He had no control over what he did.

While your horse certainly had some medical and pain issues I just can't help but wonder if, like with Buddy, there was a lot more going on.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 7:10 am:

Very interesting! I had a dog with the same thing, but I never thought of that happening to a horse. Crumpet would fly into rages, and we found that she had a brain tumor. I had no problem euthanizing her, as she was definitely a danger. I just never thought of it that way with Baron. Thank you. And maybe they will find something, but if not, I'm still OK with it. The physical pain is still kinda there, and unlike childbirth, I'm gonna try to remember it for a while...!!
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 10:49 am:

My condolences dieliz , you have been thru a lot and hung in there much longer than most would have. IMHO, you left no stone unturned, no one could have done any better. My fingers are crossed for you that there may be an explanation forthcoming........

((((((((((dieliz and Baron))))))))))
Member:
zarr

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 1:26 pm:

dietz, like Sara this whole thread brought back a GSD that was at once sweet dog and flipped a switch and attack anything, he also had a brain tumor!? Hope is both a blessing and a curse you worked with Baron thru so much more than most would have ever tolerated. I remember in one of Mark Rashid's book.
the story of a horse plagued by unexplained rages he to had a tumor. None of this helps when you've lost someone you were so deeply committed to God Bless both of you! Baron now runs free of his demons!
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 11:54 am:

Dieliz sounds like you did everything you could possibly do for Baron, up to and including making sure not to just send him down the road where he would just become someone else's problem. I commend your responsibility.
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 7:47 am:

Thank you. Selling him was never an option. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I had unloaded him on someone else.
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