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Discussion on Do glucosamine/chonDrOitin lose their effect?
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 8, 2008 - 4:40 pm:
Hi DrO,
Do you know of any studies indicating that nutriceuticals such as Cortaflex lose their effect after a long period of treatment, and that it is beneficial to have a break from them now and then?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 8, 2008 - 11:10 pm:
Frankly LL we aren't sure it does anything in the first place LL, but no there is no reason to believe it quits helping but you should remember it will not stop the progression of the DJD, we just hope it slows it down.
DrO
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Member:
parker66
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 8, 2008 - 11:36 pm:
I don't think they would lose their effect. Their role is to replenish and help rebuild cartilage. To me, what you are referring to seems more in line with a painkiller where the body builds up a resistance over time. Cortiflex does work if used properly, but it's not going to prevent any horses from becoming lame due to an acute injury or severe arthritis.
A program of Legend IV (5cc) every 14 days & Cortiflex will keep joints, ankles especially, from developing arthritis & synovitis as quickly.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 6:16 am:
I need to note that none, including the NSAID comment, of Rodney's statements for support of Cortiflex or Legend is strongly supported by science. For what is known about these products I refer you to the articles on arthritis Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx).
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 10:04 am:
Thanks for your responses DrO and Rodney.
It was my vet who suggested some months ago when my horse's arthritis flared up that, if she'd been on Cortaflex for a couple of years, it might not be having the same effect any more. I gave her another, rather expensive, product (Artri-Matrix, Belgian) as an intensive short-term treatment. She became and remained pretty sound, but of course it may have had nothing to do with the product. Now I'm back to Cortaflex, using up a bottle I'd already bought, and wondering where to go from here.
Had made my mind up to try her without supplements and see if she remained sound .... but haven't quite got the nerve..... !
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Member:
parker66
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 1:47 pm:
LL,
Try 5cc of Polyglycan (IM) and report back in a week.
Regarding a regimen of cortiflex & HA, there's no doubt in my experience that that a horse's gait is improved 7-10 days after getting both. If you can afford Polyglycan (it's about $10 more per dose, $40 each), then you'll be very happy with the results.
I have a horse with 2 chips in the upper joint in each knee and DJD in the right ankle. Science would say there is no cure for this horse other than removing the chips to help the knees. 48 Hours after Polyglycan he goes from 70% soundness at a trot to 90% and it lasts for weeks not days.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 3:07 pm:
Ummm, 90% still isn't sound although definitely an improvement.
Remember, the plural of anecdote is not data.
Yours scientifically.
Chris
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 9:30 pm:
LL I think what the veterinarian was talking about was the progressive nature of DJD and not the nutraceutical has quit working. And you are right the waxing and waning symptoms of arthritis make evaluation difficult. For recommendations on further treatment options I recommend you study the article on Arthritis Overview. It has many management and medication recommendations.
Rodney it is not true science says that "there is no cure" but to remove the chips and sometimes removal is not a cure (preventive for DJD). Though certainly surgery is the best way to go with most such problems. But we do see lots of off track TB sport horses with small chips that are being managed without surgery.
DrO
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Member:
parker66
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 12:55 pm:
Chris,
I don't think I ever said cortiflex/polyglycan combo would cure anything. However, when a horse goes from 70% (where a lay person could tell the horse was lame) to 90% (where the horse is relatively sound) is good enough for me. I'm just trying to help people with real solutions that have worked for me.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Apr 11, 2008 - 8:10 am:
Thanks, DrO. I have studied the Arthritis Overview several times over the years, but it's probably time to have another look!
Rodney, I'll look into Polyglycan - had never heard of it before actually. At the moment my horse is sound (hope I'm not jinxing things here!), so it's maintenance/prevention I'm interested in. Thanks for the info.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 11, 2008 - 8:17 am:
And we appreciate you trying to help Rodney. However, your enthusiasm for these products is not currently supported by what scientific investigation says about them. The problem with anecdotal evidence, even strong anecdotal evidence, is that it is based on the "temporal relationship" between two events and not "cause and effect". When I say temporal I am talking about: first one thing happens then something else happens. An example would be, "I gave the treatment then the horse got better".
One of the miracles of life is that it is a "self healing" system. On top of that our simple observations are flawed. Not just your's Rodney, but everybody's. We often make mistakes using temporal data to evaluate cause and effect because we don't know what would have happened if we did something different. For emphasis let me say that again, "we do not know what would have happened if we had done something different". And that makes all the difference in the world. We have strong anecdotal evidence presented in these pages for support of horse psychics (who could tell you from hundreds of miles away what your horse was thinking) and dilute homeopathic preparations (so dilute in fact to be just water but reportedly with atomic spin properties that give the preparation unexplained physical mechanisms that can heal horses). I am skeptical. Skeptical not of just such magical treatments but skeptical with some of the mainstays of equine veterinary medicine are what I consider "alternative" because they are not well supported by science. Finally throw in all of the amount of over the counter "magical" and "alternative" and the horseowner's and even the veterinarian's ability to discern fact from fiction quickly, and their wallets, becomes overwhelmed.
That is what we do here, we try to thresh out the wheat from the chaff. And while we encourage our members to post advice all the information provided is passed through the filter of what the best science to date says about it. So don't take offense, I have been occasionally corrected on these pages too and learned from our members. Your comments are welcome but realize they are susceptible to critique and try to remember, "it's a good thing". Here is to saving you a bunch of money and having healthier horses in the upcoming year.
DrO
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Member:
parker66
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Posted on Friday, Apr 11, 2008 - 11:12 am:
That's fine. I also point out things that don't work. I also believe there aren't enough (non-biased) scientific data out there for a lot of the medications that do or do not work.
I will say this - cortiflex is pretty much the only oral supplement that I will give. I think that about 95% of the OTC oral supplements, specifically the ones that claim to heal joints, are a total waste of money unless you value manure with shark cartilage et al.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 - 8:27 am:
Rodney,
I swear by Aniflex Complete for joint health. Now, having said that, I just started 2 horses on the Aniflex Gl. It's a lot cheaper and the only dif is it don't have the chonodrition.(sp?) I'll know if a few weeks if that change was a mistake as one older mare will be stiff again if it's not working.
To add to the "we don't know" bit, this mare also changed a lot for the better when I added Selenium & E to her diet. Is that joint sup and the S & E working together the main thing that is helping? Do I need the joint supplement at all even? It's amazing how each animal responds to what is lacking or added to their diets.
Oh, and massage has done wonders to a "gimpy" horse. One time massage, done by me. Following notes I had made up, flipping pages as I did the massage. Joint supplement didn't seem to help him, the massage did. But for now he's still on the joint supp...just in case it's helping too!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 - 9:19 am:
Rodney and Angie,
Our article on nutraceuticals tells you how to differentiate the good from the bad in an objective manner and without spending huge sums experimenting. Remember that "Cortiflex" and "Aniflex" are simply name brands whose ingredients and formulation can and do change. This is the reason we avoid using brands when making recommendations. Let's discuss active ingredients instead.
DrO
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New Member:
dawnv
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 11:16 pm:
Just found this forum and had to join to get my questions answered. Above Rodney talks about Polyglycan given IM. Is this a typo? I am presently using this IV on two horses with hock OA issues. I am very happy with it. We use it IV every 30 days. Can it be used IM and if so, how often? What is the experience/findings of those with more experience than me?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 7:38 am:
Welcome Dawn,
Polyglycan is not approved for either IM or IV use. This product is labeled for only intraarticular use. But this has not stopped veterinarians from a long time history of using off label products for joint help. In short there is no research or clinical work I can find that supports or denies the product might be useful when used either way. Here is the information from the company on this product:
Polyglycan Sterile Solution is a commercially available patented formulation of hyaluronic acid, sodium chonDrOitin sulfate and N-acetyl-D-glucosamine used for post-surgical lavage of synovial compartments. Polyglycan is a patented formulation designed to replace synovial fluid lost during surgery. Polyglycan contains naturally occurring components of synovia that play a central role in maintaining the homeostatic environment of the joint.
Composition: Highly viscous aqueous solution of defined fractions of purified Hyaluronic acid, ChonDrOitin sulfates C4 & C6 in a 10% solution of N-acetyl-D-glucosamine.
Each 2.5 mL vial contains:Hyaluronic acid sodium salt 12.5 mg
Sodium chonDrOitin sulfate 250 mg
N-acetyl-D-glucosamine 250 mg
Each 10 mL vial contains:Hyaluronic acid sodium salt 50.0 mg
Sodium chonDrOitin sulfate 1000 mg
N-acetyl-D-glucosamine 1000 mg
Storage: Store in a cool, dry place. Do not freeze.
Properties: Glucosaminoglycans are important components of all extracellular tissue structures including cartilage and synovial fluid. The active components in Polyglycan exhibit viscoelastic and polyionic properties similar in nature to synovial fluid. Introducing Polyglycan into the synovial space as a post-surgical lavage and fluid replacement will assist in the normalization of the joint following arthrotomy.
Directions: Install this medical device as the final lavage prior to the surgical closure of the joint space. Quantity to be determined by Veterinary Surgeon. Discard any unused portion of vial contents.
Warning: Do not administer to animals that are to be slaughtered for use in food. Keep out of reach of children.
Looking at the ingredients one at a time might give you a better idea about this product and how it compares with others available:- Hyaluronate does have IV research which you can read about at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Legend, Hyaluronate, use in Arthritis.
- N-acetyl-D-glucosamine has been marketed as a off label poor man's Adequan but research has suggested it is not as effective as IM Adquan. You can read about this at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Adequan, use in Arthritis
- For some reason chonDrOitin has little study with injection and has mostly been associated with oral use. However it is often stated, if not shown clearly with research, that hyaluronate works better when accompanied by chonDrOitin.
DrO
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