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Discussion on To treat or not to treat? Lyme's is the latest...
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 9:28 pm:
Sugar, my lovely 19 year old mare has been discussed often on HA. Couple of episodes of laminitis, Equine Metabolic SynDrOme, possible Cushings, and now my vet is sure she has Lyme's disease!
This forward, eager jumper has, in the past couple of years, aged incredibly. She began refusing jumps (NEVER before!), then cross cantering, generally sore for girthing, etc., even got cranky enough to bite me once!
In a nutshell, she just hasn't been the horse I've known for the past sixteen years!
Yes, I know that Lyme is controversial in horses...but my husband has had a whopping, debilitating case that he has been suffering terribly from for nearly a year now. My best friend has an equally bad case. My dog, and several other friends have had less severe cases, but it is rampant here.
Mare has stiffness, lameness, weepy eyes, hypersensitivity along back muscles. Lyme test was "off the charts" according to vet. Dr. O, I know your stance is that it is unlikely to be Lyme's. You also say that the anti-inflamatory effects of doxy sometimes helps horses with these symptoms.
Therefore, ought I to go ahead with the treatment (three days IV, followed by 30 days oral doxycycline)in hopes of helping her either way? It breaks my heart to see her in the condition she's in at a relatively young age. I haven't ridden her at all in about a year because of her myriad symptoms. With each diagnosis I get hopeful again, then just poorer.
Am I chasing rainbows?
Thanks,
Erika
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 1:25 am:
Gosh, Erika, it's so hard to say. You're in north Jersey and I'm in south Jersey. When one of my mares was being treated for ulcers, her Lyme test came back "off the charts"( if I remember right, it was Elisa then Western Blot ). My own vet was ambivalent about Lymes. Since she was being treated for ulcers at the same time ( Gastrogard ), we decided to take a stab at Lymes also. We figured that the Gastroguard was protection for the stomach from the antibiotics. At the same time, my very sluggish flat coated retreiver ( dog )was diagnosed with Lymes. We treated them both. Was it Lymes? Did the antibiotics work? I don't know. This was in 2005. The dog and the mare are still with me now and very perky and full of the dickens. Did they have Lymes? Well, we certainly have the ticks here. And the dog and the horse were exposed. The dog really seemed to get better after treatment. The mare? Well, she was scoped, so I know she had ulcers. The Western blot indicated Lymes. Since both treatments were done on the mare at the same time, I can't say for sure the antibiotics helped or not. She spent 5 days at Atlantic Equine medical center for the ulcers, and they favored treating the Lymes, so we did.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 12:55 pm:
Not only is tetracycline a systemic antiinflammatory drug but there may be other diseases present the TC treats. Just this morning I was reading about the association of Bartonella, previously not described in horses, as a potential cause of polyarthritis in horses and not easy to diagnose. No one has proven that Lymes is not a cause of significant disease in horses just that it has not been demonstrated though they have tried.
As always, if after discussing the facts we present to you with your veterinarian, we recommend you should follow their recommendations Erika or get a second opinion.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 1:30 pm:
Okay, thanks Dr. O. I just looked up Bartonella. It appears that there are several tick-borne diseases and most of them are cured with antibiotics that are used on Lyme's; so I guess I will go ahead with the treatment in hopes of getting my horse back.
Lee, interesting story. Even though there are obvious risks to antibiotics, I guess it is sometimes worth giving them a try. I'm glad things worked out for you and your horse.
As for me, I think I am the last living organism on earth NOT to have caught Lyme's...I will continue to bathe in deet!
I'll post the outcome in a month or so and let you all know what goes on.
Thanks,
Erika
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 2:42 pm:
Well, it hasn't been a month yet, but just thought I'd update unless anyone else is considering the same disease/treatment.
Sugar has an I. V. catheter in her neck to administer medication (fun going through bandages and covers to keep it clean and protected, GAAA!). She gets tetracycline and banamine intravenously and bute and yogurt orally.
The banamine and bute are preventive as the vet said sometimes there is laminitis as a result of bacterial die-off. They are in decreasing doses until the end of treatment. I guess the yogurt is for probiotics.(Ever try to get a horse to eat yogurt? Of course not, horses DON'T EAT yogurt!! Big syringe, horse is hating us about now...)
A couple of days ago when I took my other horse out for a ride, Sugar was prancing a big trot like a dressage master along the fence. Good sign I suppose, but all that bute and banamine--I suppose anyone would float!
At least it's not a BAD sign, sigh.
Another week left of the I.V., and we'll see how things look from there. I am really hoping to get this horse back to ride!
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 9:53 pm:
Thank you for the update, Erika. Does Sugar roll with that catheter? I wish you a fast week.
I have an app. mare that I slopped the yogurt on top of her feed and she didn't even notice. I have a QH mare that I stuck a tiny pergolide tablet in a hole in a HUGE carrot. She spit it out, and won't touch carrots to this day.
I was looking back, and my dog was diagnosed with Erlichiosis, not Lymes. We're infested with Lone Star ticks.
My mare received her intravenous during her stay in the hospital, then at home with Doxycycline, the pills...a lot...but she was also on Gastroguard and Sucralfate at the same time for the ulcer thing ( she hated us, too, and refused to step on rubber mats after she came home from the hospital - for a year ). I often wondered if all that stomach medication interfered with the uptake of the antibiotic....I still remain unsure about the Lymes, but the ticks have been getting worse each year and this year seems to be the worst I've experienced yet. It seems better to err on the side of caution.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008 - 5:47 pm:
Lee, I've noticed that the ticks are so much worse here the past few years.
I also noticed that I didn't update the change in treatment for Sugar. Originally, we were going to do 3 days I.V., and 30 days oral antibiotic. We opted instead to get it over with and do the I.V. for two weeks.
I have been gone the last week of treatment. I had noticed improvement before I left, but WOW! We took her catheter out day before yesterday and her whole demeanor has changed for the better. She no longer has that inward focused look--you know, preoccupied looking? She was much more attentive to her surroundings (in a good way) and moved nice and forward like she used to.
So, I still don't know if it was Lyme's or something else...but the treatment seems to have cured what ailed her!
I just hope that this return to her old self sticks around for a while!
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 2, 2008 - 7:23 am:
Congratulations Erika, and I hope she stays well a long time. It is important to remember that just because she got well during treatment that the treatment is the cause of the change.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, May 2, 2008 - 7:35 am:
Yep, thanks, Dr. O, I do realize that. The change is so profound that I am praying it wasn't just a good day.
I'll let you all know if she continues on a good note.
Erika
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Friday, May 2, 2008 - 8:18 pm:
It's good to hear that she's perked up, Erika. I've been pulling ticks off my horses for about a month, now. We've put tick stuff down around our perimeters for a couple years now. It's seems to cut way down on the population within my farm itself. However, I'm becoming phobic about riding out into the woods. My dog and cat have the Frontline on but the ticks seem to jump on them outside, then discover the Frontline and abandon ship once the dog and cat come in the house. Icky, icky, icky. I'm a Deet addict.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 3, 2008 - 8:30 pm:
Lee, What sort of tick stuff do you put on the perimeter? My husband asked me if we could spray the property with something, but I just figured they come in on deer and other animals so any spraying would be a temporary fix.
I thought the same thing with the Frontline. I think they were bailing off the dog and into the house! She is vaccinated for Lyme, and I can find the ticks to pull off by checking her often. At least that way I know where they are!
I, on the other hand, will just continue to wear my favorite warm-season perfume, "Deep Woods Off".
Erika
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Sunday, May 4, 2008 - 12:37 am:
What we put down is, I think, Ortho Max insect killer for lawns. It's the granules, and comes in a red bag. We get it at Home Depot. I spread it outside the paddocks and pasture 2 to 3 times a year. I also spread it on our forest trail and around the perimeter of the barn. It's supposed to last 3 months, I think, but it doesn't seem to. It's granulated, or, kinda flaky, but it's not spray. Down here, we've been seeing a marked decline in the deer population. There is some kind of "wasting disease" they call "blue tongue". A neighbor said that they took 72 dead deer out of the forest in the last few months. I must admit that we had become way overpopulated with deer...then last year, this disease started. I had hoped the tick population would show a comparative decrease, but no such luck.
If you put any stuff down, give it a couple of weeks to show results. Last year, in spite of the Equi-spot and the Ortho-Max perimeter treatment, the horses were coming in from the pasture with ticks around their muzzels and fetlocks. We treat the pastures now, too. But, the pasture is divided and rotated and the horses are kept off the treated part for 30 days and lots of rain or irrigation.
I, too, use Deep Woods Off, but have also discovered the new elixirs, "BENS"(95% deet) and Deep Woods Sportsman (98.11% deet). Yes, I now use the "hard stuff".
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, May 4, 2008 - 8:46 am:
Does the Ortho Max work on ticks? They are arthropods, not insects. Sometimes chemicals require ingestion, and ticks, unlike many insects, don't eat plants.
I have had a decline in deer population, too. But mine is from the invited hunter who tossed me a little venison for the privilege of sitting in my trees.
I hope the wasting disease isn't going to end up being like mad cow and transferable to humans. I do love my venison! I consider it payment for all the Lyme's trouble.LOL!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 4, 2008 - 10:21 am:
To help correct the record here both insects and ticks are in the phylum of arthropods but ticks, like their cousins the spiders, are arachnids and therefore in a different subphyla than insects. Though not insects they are sensitive to many of the commonly used insectidies including permethrin however larger doses may be needed. It should be on the label. Also important is to keep the pastures well mowed and discourage wildlife in the pastures with the horses.
DrO
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Sunday, May 4, 2008 - 11:00 pm:
Yeah, Erika, it's like Dr.O says. The bag states that it's for ticks. There is a picture on the bag of a tick.
The venison thing is freaking me, a little, too. I also have a couple of hunters that use my property and keep my freezer stocked. We've been eating off it but over the last month or so, I've been getting a little leery of it.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, May 5, 2008 - 8:20 am:
Thanks for the correction--I should have remembered "arachnids" because of that terrifying movie that still haunts me!!
We do mow our pastures frequently, and every week mow a strip along the fenceline also.
I am going out today to get the Ortho Max, Lee! Thanks for the tip, it certainly can't hurt to try it. I assume you put it outside the pasture fences on the perimeter of your property? Or do you put it where the horses would come in contact with the ticks?
I owe you a venison dinner for the tip--if we continue to be brave enough to eat it!Lol! I figure it's got to be healthier than factory farmed beef, don't ya think?
Time for the two daily showers--one with water, one with deet!
Erika
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 12:07 am:
I had to put it on the pastures this year. The ticks never seemed to subside over last winter. We were very mild here in S.Jersey. Around March, as the horses were nosing around on the ground, they started coming in with ticks around their jowls and under their chins. And, yes, I came in with them too. Eeeekk!! The chemical, I believe, is bifenthrin, and when I looked it up last year, it said to wait 30 days before grazing. I have 3 rotations on my pasture, so they graze #1, then I close it and treat it - fertilizer and Ortho Max, while they graze on #2 for 2 to 3 weeks, then close #2, fertilize and Ortho Max it, and put the horses on #3. But the main importance is the perimeters. We don't wipe them out 100%, but I'd have to say that we cut the population by at least 80%.
Oh, Why, Why, WHY, did God make ticks?
As for the beef, I'm lucky enough to have a neighbor who raises our beef for us. No antibiotics, no hormones. Just grass, hay and corn. Plus, he raises them to just past 3 years old. It's real beef, not "beef just barely past veal"...like the supermarkets sell. Today, it's just not cost effective to keep mass produced beef that long.
And the venison dinner?? FINE!! I've had no - dweeep, puh, flaaw...wup, dup, fwee, fweee, luur, lurrr, lurrr, no problem!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 2, 2008 - 10:39 pm:
Update on Sugar, after her terrible relapse that mimicked severe laminitis, we treated her again IV tetracycline for 30 days. I'll have to check the other thread, but I do know that she is better, and has been better since. Took off the weird backward shoes and she is sound and happy in the pasture. Brighter outlook in her eyes again.
Hope it sticks.
Lee! Now that I know you from Holly's, I am rereading this thread and seeing your responses in a new light! Sorry, I still owe you the venison dinner, but we did get some Mexican food and a pizza together, didn't we?
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 12:36 am:
We sure did, Erika, and your wonderful oversized Walmart underwear DID serve you and others as a perfect napkin!!! Gosh, you probably found that the underwear served as a fantastic bandaging/shipping boot! Ha, Ha.
I haven't had another relapse in my mare due to the Lymes diaease. I find that our 3 applications of Ortho Max is still working.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 11:18 pm:
Yes, Lee, excellent shipping boots. I have also discovered that if I tie off the legs and fill them with water they will slowly water the new trees I recently planted. Holds enough for a slow leak for a couple of days. Oops! some people might not know why we are talking about giant underwear! (Its all about Kansas)
Thanks everyone for your concern!
Erika
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