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HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Front Limb » Overview of Lameness of the Knee (Carpus) » |
Discussion on How bad is this knee (reposted to proper section) | |
Author | Message |
Member: cpacer |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 3:36 pm: Hi DrO, finally getting around to reposting this (you can delete the old discussion I started if you wanna).I'm considering adopting a rescue horse that has a knee injury and I'm wondering if you can tell me based on the radiographs if it looks like something that may get better over time. He has some fused bones/missing cartilage on the inside of his left knee, and a little arthritis on the outside of it. He's being treated with monthly shots of Adequan IM, daily MSM supplements, and a daily application of DSMO(?) – a few dollars a month worth of stuff that I'm hoping wouldn't get more expensive over time, or may even not be necessary one day!?!?!? Also, when he was brought to the rescue his feet were way overgrown and his coffin bone was exposed (pictures follow). This is healed now, but do you think it's something that could have caused permanent damage? My friends think I'm crazy for even considering this horse, but I just want to give him a chance at a nice life. At this point I'm just seeing if the horse and I can get along well enough for me to do something this stupid. I keep going back and forth and think your advice on prognosis will help me decide (I'm sure you really stay clear from influencing decisions to do something like this though, but if you say no way I might listen). He's 12, an off the track QH that had a rough life. I don't know if I'd ever want to restart him under saddle, and don't mind if he can only be a companion, but I want to be careful that I don't get in over my head. So anyway, from your experience do injuries such as these ever heal or do they get progressively worse? (once again, his feet seem fine now.) Let me know if I can provide further info. As always, thank you!!! here are the radiographs here's what his feet looked like in 2005 when he was rescued |
Member: cpacer |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 3:38 pm: forgot to mention -- my horses love to run and play. Would running around, bucking, and rearing be bad for a horse like this? |
Member: cpacer |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 3:43 pm: also, the coffin bone image is of a hind leg in case it makes a difference. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Apr 11, 2008 - 8:40 am: Hello cp,Thanks for moving this discussion, I really wanted the members to see these remarkable images. The carpus (knee) shows remarkable osteoarthritis in all three joints. This is something that will only grow worse overtime but how fast is nearly impossible to say. Sometimes such knees are not that weight bearing lame to start with (using a head bob at a trot as a guide) but do have decreased flexion which leads to tripping. How lame does he appear now and how much decreased flexion in the knee is there? I don't think that is the coffin bone we are looking at but the exposed corium to the frog and sole. This is the tissue that forms the horn of the sole. To evaluate the foot would require the assessment of lameness from the hoof, radiographs, and evaluation of the quality of the horn that is currently being formed at the diseased location. If the foot is sound at this time, it is a good sign. DrO |
Member: cpacer |
Posted on Friday, Apr 11, 2008 - 11:41 am: well that makes sense about it not being the coffin bone, seems that kind of exposure would be irrepairable?As far as the other goes, my heart is sinking. I haven't had a chance to move him around too much yet, but they said he limps sometimes!?! He has no muscle whatsoever, but he likes to race around on occasion. I'm not sure about the flexion either (sorry), but there were horses there with much bigger knees than his. I guess I would wonder at what point it's causing too much pain. Is the missing cartilage the same as the osteoarthritis and what the Adequan would be treating? From what I've gathered on this site there is no generic equivalent of Adequan that is any good, right? Is there an image on this site of a normal knee so I can see the difference? Guess I can do a search. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 13, 2008 - 8:39 am: Yes, the missing cartilage is part of that picture as our remarkable osteophytes and bony remodeling. We have images of the knee in the reference section but not any radiographs, I am afraid. Note that "big knees" come for many reasons and not all have osteoarthritis (DJD) associated with them, reference the article on knee lameness for more.The good(?) news, from a financial standpoint, is throwing IM Adequan at this is like pouring a beer onto a forest fire, that really should stop almost no matter what the situation, instead as recommended treatment you should follow the less expensive recommendations in the overview of arthritis article. DrO |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 13, 2008 - 10:48 am: Hi CP,What does the horse think about these x-rays? I have a 23 yo gelding with comparable knees, also bad hocks, fetlocks, and near-total blindness. He has pretty good feet, but is otherwise a clinical train wreck. He is my baby raiser, and I am always amazed watching him trot around with the babies, bucking and playing. He also insists on his naps in a quiet corner, and woe to the weanling that interrupts a nap. I'm telling you about this guy, because his quality of life is clearly darn good, in spite of everything I wish I could fix but cannot. Some horses can retire happily with shocking diagnoses. Others, not so much. When my old man gets sore, I keep him on previcox, which seems to help him more than bute these days. And I dread the day he crosses into misery, but retiring a horse is always a contract to hold that last lead rope, which is something to think about as you consider this rescue. |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 3:43 am: I do not know if it is possible with a rescued horse but I would be content with giving this guy quality of life for even a very short time. If he loves to play he seems to deserve that and as soon as he really get's in pain and gives up your task is clear.But that is just my opinion and I could act like this because the horses were my own. Jos PS Please don't think I didn't try to medicate or cut the vet out I just accepted it wouldn't be for long and put myself before on a budget I could afford towards medication etc. |
Member: cpacer |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 11:18 am: DrO, you're the best! That all sounds like better news, but I would be faced with going against the treatment recommended by the rescue--a big no no.Elizabeth & jos, I too just want the horses to know a good life before they pass on, no matter if even for a short time. The trouble is knowing when "it's time" could be interpreted differently, and I can't help but think there'd be some grief given if that decision had to be made. I am still so torn about this. I really am not sure I can take on the financial responsibility of the monthly meds, especially after hearing it's not the best treatment. The horse is in a decent place now and seems content with his life of being left alone with his herd mates in the pasture. There are just so many horses needing homes out there, where do you even begin in deciding which to take in? Such a sad sad thing this horse business. |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 1:31 pm: Ofcourse there is grief when you need to take this last decision cp but in my opinion thats nothing compared to the grief if you know him well and the rescue people do not agree and want him back.That's what I would be frightened about. About which to take in I'd better keep still because I always end up with the most unsuitable horses/horsecombinations etc. Perhaps with rescue a rational approach would be better [who will fit in and have a reasonably easy long life with me[easy for you and the horse]] then choosing when you are looking for a horse especially for yourself that imo has to be 'love at first sight'. I would like to know what you decide. Jos |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 5:30 pm: Hi CP,Well, if he's happy and safe where he is, I guess I'd move on. You will find others that are a better fit, or need you more, or all of the above! - elk |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 6:11 pm: cp if you are going to have the horse under your care at your cost but be answerable to someone else on decisions of care and cost I strongly recommend you bow out of this unless your pockets and patience very deep.DrO |
Member: cpacer |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 15, 2008 - 2:51 pm: you are all right. my husband thanks you! |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 5:19 am: Oh CP I hope when you find another rescue you will be happy to with the decision I think you will make.It always is difficult to stay rational when looking at animals whom you'd like to help Jos |
Member: cpacer |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 7:25 am: thanks jos, it is hard and again there are so many out there needing help. I think I will find one with the right balance of issues that I can handle. It's interesting that you mentioned "love at first sight" in an earlier post because I was all prepared to take him home no matter what after hearing his story. But truth be known, he didn't really care for me. I was willing to work with him given his past, but the initial meeting intimidated me a little since I don't have years and years of experience with different horses. DrO's advice regarding the knee helped me to decide if it was worth working through as I didn't want that first meeting to determine whether or not we'd have a future together.For now I will continue doing my volunteer work and donating money as I can afford to--every little bit helps. |