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Discussion on Shoeing bruised feet
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 10:46 pm:
Hi Dr. O. my gelding was trimmed 2 weeks ago and was sore, I have been using the same farrier for years and this has never happened. I rode him at the walk second day after trim and he was very sore so got off. The problem is I don't know if I am dealing with bruising or founder he has increased digital pulses in all 4 feet, walks like on eggshells, but no founder stance or laying around. I locked him in his run with deep shavings and he moves fine in there. I am also giving him 1g bute morning and night which don't seem to help alot. He still has the elevated pulses and stilty walk on hard ground, he don't rock back like a foundered horse. Meanwhile I had put in a call to my farrier to come put shoes on him but now I am wondering if thats the right thing to do now. If its to much sole removal from trimming are shoes alright? if its mild founder are shoes alright, or even a good idea? I hve a pair of old macs for another horse i put on him and he went completely sound unfortanetly they are to small for him. I don't mind putting shoes on as we will be riding alot of rock and pavement, but would like to know at this point would it hurt anything, also would cutting to much sole off cause all 4 hooves to have elevated pulses? Thank You
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 7:07 am:
Unfortunately the answer to most of your questions depend on the details and degree.
I agree that it sounds more like tender footed rather than founder considering the history and symptoms (see Overview of Founder more more on this) but it is a little hard to understand why he has not become better in 2 weeks. The fact that all 4 have a pulse does not differentiate between the two. If you remain uncertain you should have your vet out to examine the horse and when in doubt best to treat it as a founder.
A skilled shoer with mild bruising and sensitivity can bevel and rim pad a foot so that it is Ok to ride lightly until the foot grows out more. But when doubt exists following the suggestions in our article would be best.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 2:48 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I have been treating this as founder because I have lost a mare to that once and don't ever want to relive that nightmare. I would not consider my farrier extremely skilled, but one of the better in this area anyway. My question is why do you bevel and rim pad if it seems the sole is sore on the bottom? What would the consequences be if that wasn't done and just shod normally? He is better today and the pulses have gone down but still mildly elevated. His walk isn't quite as stilted either. This horse is overweight, I now have him on 2 hrs turnout and locked in with stemmy hay the rest of the time. He gets a handful of safe & sound grain (low carbs). I am going to continue the weight reduction protocol until he is of normal weight. The farrier is coming tues., and I really am torn as far as shoes. I would like to have them put on so I can ride him when he is sound altho I don't think the farrier is going to bevel and rim pad corrctly. If I just have him shod normal will that make matters worse considering he seems to be recovering now? Thanks alot. P.S. I have read your founder articles 1000 times and they are great the best on the net. Thanks again
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 6:16 am:
Thanks Diane,
Without extra care the shoe on a thin sole might cause a bruise around the inner edge of the sole. Getting a rim pad to stay in place does require some skill. Some of the new plastic rim pads with a bar across the heels stay on pretty well. Beveling the weight bearing surface of the shoe to ensure no contact with the sole is not a big deal however. It can be done with either a hammer or a grinder.
Often to get a shoe to fit an unshod hoof, adjustments to the hoof have to be made so that it fits the shoe. A thin sole may need to be made thinner. Discuss it with the farrier after he has examined the foot, he probably can give you advice here.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:57 pm:
Hi Dr.O. I had the farrier out last Tues (5/10) and suggested the rim pad and beveling. I believe he beveled the shoes but he said no rim pad. When he was done the horse was no better, he did tolerate the pounding fine and stood great for shoes to be applied which would leave me to believe I am not dealing with founder. He has gotten much better over the last week but nqr on the right front. He walks, trots, and canters well in pature. I have a nagging problem that is bothering me tho his pulses are still mildly elevated. Any ideas? Should I let this bother me so much? They have gone down dramatically. Should I give him some bute even tho he don't seem lame except a very little off in rt front? pulses are elevated in all 4. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 7:30 am:
Bruises can take a while and tend to slowly improve, Diane. As long as he is improving you should just allow him to rest. Bute may speed things along but the horse should not be allowed work until sound off the bute.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 21, 2005 - 2:19 pm:
Hi, Dr.O. I have had a nightmare with this gelding since my original post, thats why I am putting it here as this has been going on since then. I could write a book, but I will spare you. I put shoes on him and he felt relief immediately, however when I would ride him he was nqr on left front. I decided not to ride him until next farrier visit and left him alone. Originally I thought it was his rf, but I believe at that time it was a weight bearing soreness. Anyway farrier comes and resets shoes towards the end of June. He finds wet spot on shoe of lf at toe also seedy toe. I asked him to remove seedy toe and dig a little where abscess was found. He said it wasn't needed and put shoes back on, horse remained nqr on lf. Soon went down hill got vet involved he said founder, put shoes and pads on, this is beginning of Aug. I really didn't think it was founder at this time as he would be sound and running around, then laying around thinking he was dying. This just did not present as textbook founder or a normal abscess very confusing. He never went 3 legged on lf nor did he act totally laminatic. Fast forward to end of August (about 1 week after pads) Horse is laying in lean-to in extreme pain, lf fetlock starting to swell a little. Called vet he comes out and we get him up horse is rocked back and acting like founder, bounding pulses etc., vet says give bute, owner still not convinced founder as horse runs around bucking some days. Started bute no improvement of course now it is the weekend (sat) called vet emergency number of course no one answers nor does farrier. I work at an equestrian barn and asked the owner to come out and pull lf shoe and pad (Sun). Shoe and pad pulled, moisture on shoe same place as back in June. Boss digs out abscess and seedy toe, horse is 50% better immediately. Since then about 3 weeks ago he blew abscess out of heel bulb and just last week out coronary band. I must mention I kept lf hoof soaked and bandaged according to your site. rf remained in shoe and pad for support. Horse never looked back after boss dug original abscess out, no founder stance, pulses went away and is now (today) 90% sound. WTC fine in pasture + bucking. Farrier was here yesterday and we reset shoes, putting wide web on to cover digging hole, I did not want pads again. He needs shoes at this time. I am not riding him. Hopeful for barefoot next reset if all goes well. This is the history in a nutshell believe it or not. My question is he is still nqr in lf, not observably lame. After all this trauma to hoof how long does it take til soundness? I did have vet out before shoeing and hoof tester showed slight tenderness in tract from original abscess to coronary band. Thank You for any advice or approx time line for complete healing. (hopefully abscesses are done. Thanks again
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 22, 2005 - 7:25 am:
It depends on several factors Diane and the chief one is how much damage has been done under the sole and is it all draining well. If it is not there may be pockets of low grade infection that is slow to heal or may flare up again. Anytime the improvement stops I tend to be very quick with a hoof knife to explore suspicious/tender areas. Uncomplicated pared out areas though tender to direct pressure for some time (do to the thin horn), usually are sound at the walk in 3 or 4 days and sound by 2 weeks.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 22, 2005 - 8:29 am:
Thanks Dr. O. He is sound at wtc in the pasture. The last abscess blew out coronary band about a week ago. The original pared out one was about 6 weeks ago. All seemed to be done draining. The reason I had vet out before shoeing was to make sure he thought it would be ok to put shoes on. He said the 3 that popped were done draining, but there is no way to be sure there aren't anymore brewing. The hoof testers showed very very small reaction where the gravel probaly traveled, between original toe abscess and where the coronet band popped a week ago. When the gravel travels thru the hoof like this is not the tissue damaged in the process, and hopefully causing the slight tenderness? Would bute at this time help any inflamation? The unsoundness I see is not head bobbing lame, it is a subtle I don't want to blast around as much as usual and for some reason seems worse in the morning. He will trip occasionally on this foot. Other than that he is 500% better. Does this sound normal for a gravel that travelled for aprox 2mos. Thanks again.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 23, 2005 - 7:49 am:
I would say better than normal, I have removed significant amounts of horn from horses with foot abscesses brewing this long in order to get them draining quickly.
DrO
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 24, 2005 - 11:44 am:
Hi Diane,
I have had my share of bruises. I have a rock farm. If only I could sell them . . . .!
Any way, I would be careful. I have had absess pop out top and bottom, continued flushing and keeping clean for a couple weeks, passed the 100% soundness test, put shoes back on. Then a week later the whole thing re-infects again. If this happens you can really ruin the integrity of your hoof for a very long time, possibly permanently. My recommendation, if there is any opening at all, continue to keep it clean and flush it if possible. Also dont forget about tetnus shots.
One more comment, I hope the owner knows how hard you are working to take care of this horse. I have my horses at home but I know how hard it is to find good care. You are giving the horse industry a good name.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 24, 2005 - 3:52 pm:
Thanks Shelley, This horse is mine, but we do take care of all the others as if we owned them. I surely hope this abscess does't rear it's ugly head again. I really debated the shoes and hope I made the right decision (so far so good). I am having farrier back in 4 weeks so we can check it, unless he gets sore again. He is up on tetnus shot, and vet felt he didn't need another one. He reacts horribly to them. So wish me luck I'm itching to get back on him! as he has had this since June, but I plan on giving him at least another mo. Thanks again.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 12, 2005 - 8:35 am:
Hi, Dr.O. This horse of mine still hasn't come sound from this abscess, he is not dead lame just nqr. When I try to ride him to test his soundness he just trips and plants that foot like it is still sore. I have not been riding him otherwise. I pulled his shoes in Oct. (was sound with shoes). Now the farrier has found a stretched white line and we believe he has slight rotation. The vets office I use is finally getting a x-ray machine in the middle of this month and he is on the list. In the mean time he has bounding pulses occasionally. There is alot of snow on the ground for padding which helps him some. My worry is he still seems slightly sore even on the snow. He does blast around the pasture and play war with his friends. The farrier is coming thurs. and I am trying to figure if putting shoes back on might help to hasten his recovery. Opinions? X-rays will be taken soon as possible but til then I would like to prevent more damage. Thanks
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Monday, Dec 12, 2005 - 9:25 am:
If not shoes, get some Old Macs for turnout. Take time to make sure they fit correctly!
Ella 
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 12, 2005 - 1:54 pm:
Hi Ella, Hank(the horse) is turned out 24/7 I have tried the old macs which don't seem to help. I have even tried the styrofoam pads to no avail. We have about 8in of fluffy nice snow for his feet. He is pasture sound and moves around all day. When I had his shoes pulled surprisingly he was sound to ride, no snow then either. I don't know what happened between then and the last few weeks to make him nqr again. I am sure it is his feet but what I am not sure. He is in good weight maybe a little over but our winters are brutal so a LITTLE extra weight seems ok for now. He gets a handful of safechoice grain so I can give him a hoof supplement and about 5 leafs of grass hay thru the day. He is 15.1hh and weighs about 1075 built like a big quarter horse. I don't know if I am feeding him wrong that he seems to be having chronic low grade founder or what. He is 8 yrs old and shows no symptoms of cushings or thyroid problems. I have had vets and farriers here numerous times. The only thing I wonder is if the gravel that blew is still some how affecting him. Don't know til x-rays I guess. If you have any other ideas would appreciate it. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 13, 2005 - 7:15 am:
Unfortunately radiographs are not that good at finding smoldering abscesses or bruises. Occasionally you get lucky and catch one tangentially and a small pocket of air seen. To shoe or not to shoe that seems to be the question and without knowing what is wrong I find it hard to give specific advice. That you see some evidence of rotation makes me think you need to continue to try and get a firm diagnosis. If you are having problems with a chronic founder situation and identify the cause there may be specific treatments you can implement and minimize the rotation.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 15, 2005 - 11:27 am:
Hi, Dr.O. Farrier was here today and believes my horses soreness has been due to snow balling in his feet, which would make sense as he was rideable before the snow hit. The horse is barefoot, however our snow is very wet. The farrier said he would try to trim them so there would be less snow balling. Time will tell I guess as he had quite the bounding pulses this morning. Should I give him some bute or continue to monitor for a few days first? Thanks
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 15, 2005 - 12:39 pm:
Diane, I think I remember other members posting about spraying Pam (or WD40?) or something else that will prevent snow sticking in the hooves. If this is indeed the reason for your horse's soreness, you may want to try this or consider getting him shod for the winter with snow pads.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 15, 2005 - 7:11 pm:
Fran, I have tried all that no stick stuff and it works, but only for about an hour. I really don't want to shoe this horse as we live on hills and I would have to add borium also, which gets expensive just to prevent snow balls. Tonight his pulses were down and no snow balls so hopefully the trim will do it. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2005 - 4:35 pm:
Hi, I thought I would post a follow up on my horse and of course add a question. We had x-rays today and he does have slight rotation in both feet, vet said less than 5 degrees. He remains sore but not terribly on right front. The x-rays showed his toe to be waaayy too long. Question is would the long toe be making him have the bounding pulse and slight heat? Vet said probaly and didn't think it is an active founder. Just wondering what you think Dr.O. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2005 - 6:38 am:
Yes it could be causing remarkable forces on the sole at the toe, on the laminae, on the navicular bone and the flexors. Many horses with mild vague lameness issues improve significantly when a long toe is addressed.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 12:33 pm:
Hi Dr.O. The farrier is coming monday and I am going to have shoes with borium and snow rim pads put on Hank (the horse). I decided to go with shoes as I have a strong notion that bringing back his toes may make him a bit sore. My question is when we bring back his toes which I have been trying to get him to do for quite some time now, will he bleed? He has seedy toe also and the reason the farrier has been giving me for not taking back toe is he will bleed. I then asked him if seedy toe is basically dead laminaie why would it bleed? He predicts this horse will be extremely sore, however I know if I don't start getting that toe back he will get worse. HELP should we take excessive toe back slowly or get rid of it all at once. I am having vet out today to examine his foot, but really I am pretty much on my own. Vet was just here as I was typing this he took off some of Hanks toes and found no abscess. he is now not loading the toes as much & landing a little more heel first. Hopefully farrier can finish job correctly. Oh also no reaction to hoof testers altho there is still heat and mild pulse in feet. Thanks
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Member:
Zane
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 9:44 pm:
Diane, as a neutral observer of your posts I notice a distinct lack of confidence in your farrier. There also seems to be lack of answers coming from him. Was he the one trimming this horse that lead to the long toes? Does Hank come up lame soon after the farrier visits? Also it seems when Hank feels better he goes bucking and running on his just healing feet which may be rebruising him. Sometimes a bit of bute makes them feel just good enough to go out and hurt themselves. I have a horse that was chronically lame as you describe with many gravels and signs of slight laminitis. A summer with a muzzle on and a few hundred pounds less he has been fine ever since. Not sure thats what fixed him but it didn't hurt.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 7:06 am:
Unfortunately without examining the foot I cannot make specific recommendations and would love to see a set of pictures of the foot and sole. That said, you have asked some specific questions that we can address. The seedy toe itself is usually a clear sign of needing to back the toe and no, he should not bleed when the toe is raped back correctly and the statement makes me worry about your farrier's competence. If your farrier is afraid to do this your vet should be able to rasp off excessive, flared, or undermined toe wall.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 8:55 am:
Dr.O. I will post pics of his feet if I can figure out how. I do not have any before pics except a full body shot that does show his long toe.Yesterday the vet removed seedy toe and removed some toe it looks pretty ugly and I would love your opinion as my next step when the farrier comes mon. This morning when I fed he still is pretty sore in right front, has pulse but heat seems a little less. We are having our Jan. thaw and the ground is soft, when he walks on hard ground he is very sore. It is suppose to freeze tonite so I believe I am going to pad and wrap that foot. I will get pics this afternoon.
Zane you are right I am not terribly confident in this farrier but in this rural area the choices are slim. Hank very rarely gets bute when he is running about it is drug free. He does need to loose weight, noe that the temprature has moderated he is getting 1 flake grass hay in morning and 2 at night with 3 measured oz of safechoice pellets. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 11:16 am:
Well I tried to post a pic and well I am too computer illiterate. I even tried the irfanview. I can e-mail pics but it would seem that is the extent of my talent. Any computer savvy people out there that can help? I have a Kodak easyshare and it isn't proving to be easy. When I select upload it seems to go thru the process but nothing shows up.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 10:52 pm:
 Ok hollywood here is another try hopefully Dr.O. won't throw me out for all these posts. I THINK I might have gotten it right this time
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 11:08 pm:
 This is Hanks body condition and long toes before vet not to easy to see
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 11:16 pm:
 Little bigger pic of sole. It only took most the day to figure this picture thing out. Hard to believe both my sons are computer engineers. That put things in my computer and leave me to figure them out. Anyway any opinions anyone? I know he's fat.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 11:39 pm:
 In this picture from this summer I think you can see how long his toes are
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Member:
Zane
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 12:20 am:
Not as fat as mine was
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 6:21 am:
They are a start but hard to figure exactly what we are looking at. What I would like to see are close ups of the feet taken on a hard surface so the whole foot is visible. You should take them from the side and the camera should be close to on the same level as the feet.
For the sole shot the lighting was good but we need the foot cleaned up very well and a little better focus. The positioning might be better taken from directly in front of the upturned foot, we want to be able to see the sole and white line well. Don't worry about the number of posts we have a big server.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 9:39 am:
O.K. Dr.O. I will try. I have been taking pics by myself so it won't be easy. It is also a huge mud hole here, but the ground is firming. I am also going to see if I can post his X-rays somehow. That will be an all day job I'm sure. My farrier is pretty good, in all fairness this horse has had a terrible foot since birth. He is platter footed and heel wants to run under no matter what. He seems thin soled and gets sore easily so I think the fattier tries to be the least aggressive as possible. When he has shoes on he keeps his toe back pretty good. Today all heat seems gone but still a mild pulse persists in rt front. That one has the most rotation. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 12:23 pm:
 This is RF
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 12:26 pm:
 This is LF
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 1:30 pm:
Good job with the photos, Diane.
Yes, the toes do seem to be way longer than needed. The toes have been trimmed back since the x-rays, right?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 3:41 pm:
Thanks HW I had to hang the x-rays from the sliding door, so the quality isn't the greatest. Hopefully Dr.O. can tell me something from them. DR.O. can you tell the aprox degree of rotation? The toes have have been trimmed some by vet and he also dug out seedy toe. That is what these next pics will show it is as mud free as I could do. I even scrubbed them, thus the wet appearance.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 4:05 pm:
Well Dr.O. I can now do multiple pics, I do learn alot here. These are the best I could do. Any advice I hope. (About the horse) not my picture taking abilities. Hopefully they will come along. Farrier is coming Mon.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 4:35 pm:
Good job, Diane. I like the ermine spots.
Definitely, the toes are too long and the heels are too low. If you systematically keep the toes short and allow the heels to grow out a bit, the angle will improve. Do you have a rasp so that you can do your own in between "trims?" If not, ask your farrier to give you one of his old rasps, and ask him to show you how to maintain the hooves until his next visit. That way, your horse can keep his shorter toe, and you will better be able to gauge whether or not the long toe is the cause of his discomfort.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 5:03 pm:
Super job Diane,
The radiographs show a foot with remarkable toe length, flare at the toe and some rotation. The angle the photos are taken at make accurate measurement difficult but it could be estimated as mild rotation.
I think the flare is visible in the photos of the outside of the foot and I would have all the flare rasped out, even if it takes you to white line. It it does not take you to the white line I would think about going to the white line to open the seedy toe to the outside to keep it dry and so it will grow out. Following removal of the flare I would put more roll on the toe that you have and even float the toe for the width of the rasp a little in the very front. If you keep the foot trimmed this way I believe the wall will grow out normal overtime. Because the horse is not standing square in any of the photos it is hard to judge ap balance but it looks OK in the earlier photos as does the depth of the sole.
I am more concerned about the angle the solar surface of the coffin bone makes with the ground. If it is more than 5 degrees and it is judged there is not enough heel to trim it to normal, I would consider derotation procedures, see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 10:27 pm:
Oh Thank you Dr.O.Now if I understand you right we should rasp the hoof wall so the seedy toe is exposed? I don't think this will quite take us to the white line, but close. Would it be advisable to put shoes on him at this time? My gut feeling is yes, however would I need some sort of sole support with this degree of rotation? If shoes go on he will need snow rim pads and borium. We live on hills and I know winter is far from over. The hard ground makes him ouchy especially on rt front. When I was scrubbing his sole today for pics it looked like he had some bruising on it. I think the shoes will give him some sole relief that he needs for now with the hard ground. Tonight he was much better and the pulse was gone finally. Should I medicate seedy toe once the hoof wall is taken back? Please explain what you mean about the angle of the surface of the coffin bone to the ground. What is the implication of it? Also how do I determine when this horse is rideable? THANK YOU SO MUCH
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 8:12 am:
Diane,
I can't answer your questions, but wanted to give you an idea how long it may take to correct your horses feet. Three+ years ago, when my horse first arrived at the barn, and prior to my purchasing her, she had VERY under run heels, thin soles and poor hoof condition (but none of the other issues your horse is experiencing, and she was completely sound). I used my trainer's farrier and continued to use him at the barn where my mare is boarded now. Usually my farrier comes out and works on my horse and I'm rarely there. He leaves me a bill and a note. I'm fine with this - Sparkles has never been lame due to bad shoeing. On Tuesday, I was enjoying my last day off over the holidays and met the farrier to express one concern about her snow rims. He stood up after shoeing her, we discussed my concern and he also explained the progress he's made with her feet. I knew Sparkles heels had improved tons and he also explained what else he was trying to "fix" (she was very flat footed and now she's starting to get the concave shape of the sole). Unfortunately, I don't remember all the details but what I do know is that she's moving better than ever and I trust the farrier completely. My whole point of this is that it has taken more than 3 years of slow, careful work and now her heels/hooves are in the best condition they've ever been in. She's holding shoes like never before (despite 8 inches of mud in the pasture).
I'm glad you're getting answers for your horse. With lots of slow, patient and good hoof care I bet he makes a full recovery!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 9:25 am:
Thanks Fran was your horse sound barefoot also or did you do this with shoes? Hank goes sound with shoes but right now he is pretty ouchy on the hard ground. With softer footing he doesn't miss a beat. Before this very long toe thing he was sound barefoot also, even on hard ground. What was your concern about the snow rim pads? Hank has good hoof wall and never pulls a shoe. I believe his soreness now is due to sole bruising. Thanks for your encouragement as I haven't been able to ride this horse since July when this all started.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 9:34 am:
No the seedy toe will be in the white line. The most important treatment is getting the seedy toe open but if you would like to apply a topical I would follow the directions in the article on thrush, after all seedy toe is a focal thrush infection localized in the defects of the white line.
If the sole is tough and in good condition, I would not use shoes but this is a judgement made by examining the horses feet directly and history. The fact that he is sore on hard ground suggests he may well be more comfortable in shoes and I don't think pads necessary judging by the thickness of the sole in the radiographs. The article I reference above demonstrates the relationship of the bottom of the coffin bone and the ground surface of the sole. I have added some text to the images that might make this clearer.
It always worries me to give advice of this type over the internet. It is important someone who understands these principles evaluates your horse and applies them in light of that exam, carefully with a full evaluation of the foot. If the foot has been trimmed since the above radiographs, new radiographs need to done before derotation is attempted. Best is where the center of the beam of the lateral radiographs be on a plane with the sole pointed at the tip of the frog.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 10:11 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I understand your concerns, but your advice will do nothing but help this horse. I am very grateful for all your help so far and will procede with caution. When the vet was here Tues. I asked him to show me how Hank should be trimmed and he showed me, which I will relay to the farrier. So don't worry as he is under professional care, but your advice helps me with my knowledge.(alot). Hopefully it will help other people with this problem also. I will let you know how things go after farrier visit and maybe post some after pics. Thanks again and the article did help.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 1:44 pm:
Diane,
Sparkles always wears shoes, but when she lost one in the past, she would come up very ouchy until the shoe was replaced and then be back to 100%. We always chalked it up to the thin soles. On Tuesday, my farrier did say that he figured her feet were now in good enough condition that if she lost a shoe, she'd likely not be sore anymore. And when I think about it, I had to pull a shoe this past summer looking for an abcess or bruise. Turned out she had just a minor pasture injury but when I was handwalking one day, the beast got away and through an open gate and tore down a driveway at full gallop. She showed no signs of lameness on the unshod foot (nor any signs of lameness from the minor injury, for that matter - I knew at that point she was fine).
The *neurotic* concern I had about the snow pads was that because of them, I couldn't easily clean out the crevasses of her frogs at the heels - I didn't remember this being the case last year. I was worried that I might puncture the frog trying to dig out that area but my farrier told me that was unlikely. Fortunately, he is a patient man!
Again, good luck!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 10:29 am:
Dr.O. Here's after the farrier. What do you think? I think he looks better, but still nqr.His heels aren't as high as they appear. I guess it will take time. The last pic is their pasture.(all hills) Is it alright to keep studs on 24/7?
 \po
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 2:15 pm:
Well, I'm certainly no expert so take my observation for what it's worth. Judging from the radiographs, these shoes are set too far forward, IMHO. On the view of the bottom of the foot, the shoe doesn't seem to be giving much heel support, probably because it is set too far forward. Just from looking at the photos, I'd say the shoes are either too small or too far forward. There doesn't seem to be much support at the heel where the widest part of the frog is. This won't help get those underrun heels back where they belong, nor will it address the angle of the bottom of the coffin bone to the ground. The feet do look much better to the eye. Did your farrier have the radiographs to reference when he put the shoes on? When I've had this type of situation, I've asked my farrier to meet me and my horse at the vet clinic and have him put the shoes on with the "supervison" of the vet. Touchy stuff for some farriers, but everybody ususally ends up learning something! Actually, if my farrier wasn't open to this, I'd be looking for another!
At any rate, wait for Dr. O to weigh in--he may tell us something entirely different! And then again, everybody learns something! Good luck, Julie
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 3:25 pm:
Hi, Julie I tend to agree with you that maybe the shoe could be back a little more, altho the snow pad makes the pic a little deceiving. I added a couple of pics that are a little better. The farrier set shoe back and rasped toe as you can see the seedy toe has been exposed and now is full of mud. He is walking slightly heel first now which I believe is good. He also seems more comfortable, tho still a little ouchy on hard, frozen ground. Now I wonder what to do about the mud in the seedy toe cavity? I had x-rays present when farrier was there. Thanks for you interest.
Hopefully Dr.O. will have some comment
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 8:53 am:
The toe needed to be rasped back so I think the trim is ok but I too agree with Julie, I would like to have seen the shoe sticking out about 3/8 an inch from the heels, for more on evaluating trimming and shoeing see, Care for Horses » Hoof Care. Watch carefully for the heels overgrowing the shoes and have the farrier back out when it happens, you may find this is a short shoeing cycle.
It is difficult to evaluate the seedy toe from these pictures but you should watch for lack of improvement. If it did not all rasp out from the front, you can pack a piece of formaldehye soaked cotton in the pared out seedy toe defects and put the shoe over that to treat while keeping shoes on.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 8:47 am:
Dr.O. I had vet back out after shoeing and he agrees that shoe needs to be set back more and maybe leave the exposed seedy toe hang over the edge of the front of the shoe to keep clean, which makes sense to me. The good news is he is moving 99 percent sound now, No trace of heat or pulse. He is on a reduction diet and walk under saddle exercise regimen.(per vet) weather permitting. My vet, as you thinks fat is the root of all evil on a horse that is lame. I agree. My question is now the FARRIER says he has pedal osteitis and DrOpped sole in rt front. The vet said the DrOpped sole is relative, whatever that means and he sees no signs of pedal osteitis. Granted the x-rays I posted aren't the greatest do you see it?(pedal osteitis) Farrier is going to reshoe on the 24th. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 8:22 am:
No I do not see pedal osteitis, see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Pedal Osteitis for more. Neither does the sole looked DrOpped in the radiographs. He may mean that it has become thin and exsposed, which will become corrected once he backs the toe up and the foot grows more upright.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 7:55 am:
Hi, Dr.O. My gelding has been 100 % sound now for about 2 mos. with shoes on. The farrier is coming today and I would like to try him barefoot. Am I asking for trouble? He has lost 120#'s. The ground goes between frozen and soft right now, and wonder if the frozen ground will lead to sole bruising again. Opinions? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 7:16 pm:
Really this is a decision that should be made by those who can examine the soles of your horses and whether they feel confident they can do this properly. In general the sole needs to be thick enough to not deflect with thumb pressure and the sole should not be resting directly on the ground.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 10:24 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. we decided if it ain't broke don't fix it. When the farrier removed his shoes and trimmed, his feet look much better, the white line is starting to tighten and the seedy toe is almost gone. Thanks for all your help with this horse it is so nice to see his beautiful collected canter and flowing trot again.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 10:00 am:
Hi Dr.O. I need a little help here with this horse, I have gotten the farrier to finally get his toes back and the horse is 100% sound, but something still look nqr to me. Could you tell me what you think. The 1st one is from Jan. and the 2nd one is from June. Thanks
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 10:29 am:
I'm hijacking my husband's computer since mine is all packed, and his is coming down soon, but have to say, "Congrats," on your horse's soundness. What a great relief for the both of you.
Both sets of toes look very long. It may be that the farrier is going to have to rasp from above and below over a long time to get these toes back, but your horse will feel much better when the toes are shorter. I don't know if the sole has enough concavity to allow for a bit of rolling at the quarters, but if it does, then it seems it might be a good idea to allow the quarters to not touch the ground (shoe) . . . so that any flaring there can grow straight down, and the wave at the coronet can straighten out. It could just be the ermine spots that are giving the illusion of a wavey coronet . . . I can't really tell.
I am no expert, Diane . . . just learning about all the nuances of healthy hooves myself. The important thing is that your horse is sound. That's great.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 12:14 pm:
Yes, Hollywood I have become foot obsessive because of this horse. His toes have come way back, but I agree they have a ways to go. My farrier is a pain, he says he just has a big foot, not a long toe. He wears me out everytime he comes arguing. I have been trying to find a different farrier around here, but the few there are all trim the same way (long toe, under run heel). Hank has those pancakey feet, which are a challenge anyway. I think we have made a great improvement since Jan. I have to tell the farrier everything I want done, which ends in an argument. Very frustrating, but at least I am finally getting some results. I know the toe needs to come back some yet, but the heel is what stumps me. My farrier does not take off any heel unless I am very adamant about it. He has some horses with 3 in. heels and most are lame. He thinks the higher the heel the better uggh. and if that tall heel don't grow up they are VERY under run. His toes were so long he was toe walking and couldn't go anywhere without tripping. The last trim about 5 weeks ago took care of that. The farrier is due back next Tues. and I need to know how to proceed. Thank you for your input.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 12:53 pm:
wow diane, what a situation you're in...
do you really think he couldnt go barefoot? even with boots?... at least that way you could learn to do his feet yourself and get rid of a farrier who doesnt listen and doesnt sound like he knows as much as he thinks he does..
very briefly when i was managing a dressage farm our regular farrier moved on and we tried another farrier who was going to be difficult.. he thought that because he had won shoeing competitions (based on how fast he could shoe) that he was a good farrier... he lasted one shoeing on half a dozen horses.. we were fortunately able to find a very good farrier who was very easy to work with..i really feel for you and your predicament..i trim my own horses now and have a few outside horses as well so i dont have to deal with that issue..
the height and length of your horses heels really scare me.. all sorts of problems can crop up with the DDFT with heels like that...cranks around the navicular bone which is of course no better
good luck..
mel
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 5:39 pm:
Melissa I have been thinking about doing my own trimming. He use to go barefoot until he had the slight rotation and his toe was allowed to get to long(I protested the whole time) I even showed him the x-rays. I think if I can get his foot where it belongs he can go barefoot again. I was thinking about pulling the shoes and letting them break off the way they wanted. I had one horse that Would grow this big hoof, then it would break off into the perfect foot, maybe we don't need farriers. She had the best feet, never a shoe or a farrier trim. hmmmm
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Member:
Mleeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 7:42 pm:
Well, the only problem with letting nature do it is that there's no guarantee it will work. I've worked on a farm with 1000+ horses (so farrier work was done twice a year) and I would guess that less than 5% had a nice trim done courtesy of mother nature. The boots sound like a good idea, though. I'm thinking of trying them on one of my horses this winter so I can avoid shoeing, but still keep him comfortable. I'm just hoping he doesn't lose one of his $100 boots in the snow somewhere.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 8:05 pm:
Just so you know I have ridden in old macs in the most deep mud, snow nothing has made them come off. Though I am thinking he might only need them the first week then let him go barefoot. I would not keep any boot only perminatly they are not shoes, Sorry I am such a barefoot advicate. I truly dont think you can lose an old mac that fits properly. Nothing and I mean nothing makes mine come off and I ride thru it all. Hope it helps
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 8:38 pm:
Hi, I do have old macs and they are wonderful. My problem is the trimming, I know if I don't leave him in shoes the farrier will not keep his toe back and I will be back to square one. I really need to know what needs to be done to this foot to try and get it normal. I am going to try barefoot this fall if all goes well, but I really want to get his foot where it belongs first. I'm starting to think mother nature could do a better job. I will continue my search for a farrier, I have asked all the barns, people I know, and the vet. The problem is there are only 2 farriers within 150 mi of here,and they trim the same. Most people don't see the problems it is causing, but I do. Thanks for your input
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 9:25 pm:
diane, from what you're describing your farrier wont ever get your feet to where you want them for you to start the barefoot-at least, not without you aiming a shotgun at his head...you may have to pull the shoes and do it yourself.. its not that bad, really!... but you definately want to go to some clinics...
my personal favourite is gene ovineck
(hopeforsoundness.com)
but what i've seen in general is that MOST of the good barefoot clinicians go in generally the same direction, which is exactly the direction you need to take your horse in...
so dive in and start researching... for as long as you've been struggling you need to do something different...
i definately dont recommend letting mother nature do the job-not at least until you've gotten the feet in the right direction... we dont put our horses into the right environment for most horses to develop the "perfect"foot -tho some do of course... and for the problems he has he may need some special treatment along the way..
good luck
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 9:42 pm:
Melissa, I have been doing so much research it makes my head spin. I only know enough to make me dangerous I'm afraid. I don't totally understand how to do a good trim, but I do know a BAD one when I see it. All of my horses feet look horrible, and it is contributing to their problems. It is playing havoc on my older mares and geldings arthritis. At this point anyway, all I can do is hope for Dr.O. to give me some advise on how to proceed from here with this gelding. The other 2 are for another post.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 9:48 pm:
With all of our foot talk on this site I am surprised that we don't have a farrier member! Any of you out there....???
Wouldn't it be nice to have an opinion from an advocate FOR shoes, to explain why these guys do what they do, and why they so often don't want to try anything new?
Erika
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 9:01 am:
Erika, it would be nice, but there are alot of farrier sites out there that do offer help, but as you said so many opinions. Dr.O. always has given me good advice, so it is where I start.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 11:29 am:
We have numerous farriers as members Erika but more important our sister site "The Farrier and Hoofcare Site" is the largest farrier resource on the Internet and has been our partner for over 6 years now and most of the farriers "play" over there. You will find the link on the navigation frame under the Classified & Ads navigation frame.
But I often advocate for shoes and can help with your other questions taken in order:
1) To make a living.
2) Human nature
Diane, the improvement is remarkable. At this point there is still some deformation of the heel coronet (and the wall it forms) from the past run under heel condition. I believe this will slowly resolve and rockering and rolling the toe a touch will speed it along.
DrO
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 11:52 am:
Thanks, Dr. O, I had no idea there was a sister site.
I wondered why farriers weren't chiming in on these questions...now I know!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 12:43 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. do you think his heel is too high? I know it is hard to tell from pics, I also know from past experience with this horse and a different farrier, low heels make him sore. So how do you determine heel height? I think I know how I want the toe, but the heel stumps me. As I said this farrier does not believe in trimming any heel. So if I need him to, I will need to have an educated argument, and it WILL be an argument. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 12:48 pm:
I forgot to add his coronet band does not have a wave in it, it is his ermine spots making it appear that way.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 10:12 am:
The heels should be long enough to reach the ground if the foot is the proper length and balanced. Let me explain, you cannot "adjust" the height of the heels without either changing the total length of the foot and/or changing the AP balance of the foot. So if the sole depth is right and the foot balanced the heels should be the right length.
You do still have a bit of downward curvature in the coronet in the heel that has nothing to do with coloration. This was much more pronounced in the before pictures so what you are doing seems to be correcting this problem.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 11:43 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I think I understand now. If and when I get his feet corrected, should that line at the coronet band be straight? Then does that mean the heel is where IT wants to be? Every horse has it's own natural heel height, if balanced, some higher , some lower than others? If a horse has a 2 in. heel but that line is straight and the foot balanced that's o.k.? Same if it is only a 1/2 in. heel? Sorry for all the questions, but I really am trying to understand.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 7:44 am:
I think proper trimming and balance will result in it straightening though it may never get back to completely normal. Balance alone does not assure a well trimmed foot. A horse with a 2 inch heel but balanced foot will likely have too long a foot overall.
Perhaps ths best way to understand proper guidelines for trimming is to see, Care for Horses » Hoof Care. Almost all the articles address aspects of proper foot balance but the first 2 are the most comprehensive.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 4:50 pm:
Hi, Dr.O. Hank was trimmed yesterday and I would like your opinion on the trim and shoe job. I think I am finally happy with his hooves, once those lines grow out. Should I keep the farrier on the path we have been taking? I scheduled him for 5 weeks this time, because at 6 weeks his foot just seems to be to long, for now anyway. Hopefully I can put an end to this LONG thread, but with a happy and sound horse. It has been a learning experience, and thank you for all your help. Hank says thanks too!!!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 6:44 am:
I think he looks pretty good Diane. I would have tried to remove the last little bit of flare in the toe. Leaving it usually means next time it will be a little worse but you can see where they already thinned the wall at the toe so perhaps this was a far as they felt comfortable removing.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 7:26 am:
Yes the farrier said that is far as he could go, and I would have liked the shoe extend behind the heel a little. The good news is the farrier did not argue with me and was very cooprerative, so hopefully in the next few shoeings we will get there! The improvement is quite amazing as I look at the pics. He does get a little sore for a day or two after the trimming, nothing major tho. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 11:57 am:
Dr.O., I guess the saga continues, yesterday Hank was trimmed again. The farrier rasped out the dish, and I think his feet look pretty good, all things considered. When the farrier pulled his shoes, I walked him around barefoot and he looked pretty good, but not quite 100%.
He is very sore today, I gave him 1 bute last nite as he looked a little sore, today it is much worse. No bounding pulses, just a little tick, more than usual. Have we gone to far?
I gave him a half a dose of banamine, for his weight. Gotta go get more bute. He is shifting his weight a bit. Now what? Lock him up, or let him keep moving. I have a feeling this is just sore soles, not founder. However I would rather error on the side of caution. Ideas?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 8:16 am:
You should investigate the possibility that too much sole was removed or other possible causes of soreness following trimming and shoeing. In the mean time stall rest with hand walking on soft ground should be instituted until the casue determened and if it is thin soles this resolves. For more on examinatinon and treatment see the article associated with this topic.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 6:01 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I'm pretty sure to much sole was removed. He is a little better today, and I have been painting his soles with iodine (does it matter how strong the iodine is)? I have gentle and tincture of iodine 7% I have been using the latter of the two.
I made an appointment with the vet to x-ray his feet again, so I have an idea how to continue with his trimming. I will post them I'm sure to get your opinion.
Is it a bad idea to x-ray again if the farrier pared to much sole? The x-rays will be exactly a week after his trimming.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 7:29 am:
If the diagnosis is firm I am uncertain for the indication of the radiograph. If you are thinking it might give a clue as to why this seems to be a recurrent problem and help with future trimming, it might make sense but you should discuss this with your farrier and vet first.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 8:09 am:
Dr.O. the reason I want to x-ray again is to check the progress on his long toe, and rotation. It is more to see how to proceed with his trimming, nothing to do with this soreness.
I haven't had him x-rayed since Dec.
If the farrier pared to much sole, would the x-rays make it look like he has less sole, than he really has? This is the first time he has been quite sore from a trim in this whole process of de-rotation and bringing back the toe. I guess I wonder if we have gone too far, or have it where it needs to be, and the reason for the x-rays. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 8:09 pm:
Dr.O. Hank is 100% again, but with all these farrier problems I have been having, I decided to try a different farrier that my vet suggested. I just had a post about an abscess on another horse, and the vet seemed to think a good deal of my problems is from poor farrier work, I'm inclined to agree.
Question is, is there any way for me to decide if this one is any better? He is coming Mon. to re-shoe the one that had the abscess, and I wanted his opinion on Hank and the old mare Flash. How does one decide? Tho I know I need a different farrier, how do I know this one won't be worse? It's kinda scary. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2006 - 8:17 am:
To get an idea before he begins work you would need to see his work or at least speak to clients. Before he begins work however, it would be interesting to know his schooling, how long he has been practising full time, if he is a member of the American Farriers Association, and if so has he been certified by them?
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 11, 2006 - 4:15 pm:
Dr.O. I tried the new farrier today on one horse and was very happy with him. He ans. most my questions very well. He's been shoeing for 7 years, and is certified. NOW what do I tell the other farrier? I really do like the guy, just not his work. I've used him for about 8 yrs. now. I don't want to hurt his feelings.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 7:49 pm:
Hi, Dr.O. The new farrier trimmed and re-shod Hank. What do you think of his work? I was very happy that he rasped the flare out and also cleaned up the seedy toe in his whiteline. We are going to try barefoot next time, I hope it will finally be possible,
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 10:37 pm:
I think it looks much better too.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 3:47 pm:
Hi Dr.O. The "new" farrier is coming next Tues. and last time he was here we decided it would finally be possible to try Hank barefoot. A couple questions before we try. We are now having some pretty cold weather at night and the ground is frozen hard in the morning, I notice Hank walks a little tentavly even with shoes on. When I ride him on pavement he also slows some, but not as bad as before. Obviously he is still a LITTLE tender on hard ground even with shoes. Is it silly of me to hope he can go barefoot thru the winter? Is this tenderness a sign he isn't ready? He does seem to work out of it. When and if I have his shoes pulled should we still trim him, or would it be better to wait a week or 2? as you can see it is making me nervous, as I don't want to relive this nightmare and he has been doing SO well. I pulled the shoes on my other horse last time per vets instructions and he was sore on hard ground for 7 weeks. He is doing well now. Thanks for any thoughts.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 2, 2006 - 6:51 am:
Could it be the tentative steps are because of the slipperiness? I really cannot answer any direct questions without examining the foot. If you feel there are still solar sensitivity issues, I would be slow to make changes until you get past them. I am not saying that you cannot remove the shoes but I would be cautious about it. The fact you are so worried suggests to me you should wait until you are more confident.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 2, 2006 - 9:11 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I don't think it is due to slippery conditions, as the footing is pretty good where he is. After the farrier pulls his shoes and trims him, would walking him on hard ground tell me anything? I am pretty sure he will be somewhat sore. When the farrier was here last time he thought his soles were hard and his hooves in good shape. I think this farrier will keep his hooves in good form. They are still on the mend from this whole ordeal, he still has a stretched whiteline (getting better tho.) My desire to pull his shoes, comes from the hills he is kept on. We managed last year but it was not easy! He has always been barefoot in the winter mos. until last year, when this all started. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 6:52 am:
If he is sore out of his shoes it suggests that he may not be ready yet. I an not sure what you mean by hard ground but some hard irregular surfaces may be tough for many horses.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 8:13 am:
Hi Dr.O. the farrier came yesterday and Hank is now BAREFOOT! He is walking very well and I am going to ride him today to see how it goes. The ground is not hard right now, but I think he will be ok. His whiteline is almost normal and I believe in the next few trimmings it will be normal. Thank you for your help! The pictures on this post really show how far we've come. Here's (hopefully) my last pic of his bare hoof!! How's it look to you?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 7:02 am:
They look pretty good Diane, but be sure they keep those toes back and rolled so we can get a little more upright heel growth.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 9:03 am:
Hi Dr.O. Hank has been doing better than I expected barefoot. He walks a little slower on very hard ground, I have been detecting an elevated pulse in his rt. front.
The vet was here to give Flash her legend shot, so I had him check Hank. He said his pulse in rt. front was quite elevated and to give him bute for a few days. I should add he is 100% sound in pasture and to ride in the bean and corn fields.(soft ground)
When the pasture is froze or he walks on the limestone paddock, he will take shorter steps. I realize he is adapting to barefoot and it will take time. The elevated pulse has me worried tho, the vet said it is just the transition. Since I started the bute (1 gram) His pulse is gone, and he walks a little better on hard ground. I didn't bute him yesterday and he didn't have the elevated pulse today.
Question is could that elevated pulse in just one hoof be from removing his shoes, or could something more sinister be brewing, and is it wise to bute him when he is sore?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 3:34 pm:
Sending only good thoughts to you and your boy.
My two cents is if the pulse doesn't come back in another day or two, he needed some relief and he's fine. If it does come back, personally, I would xray just to be sure.... but then again I am neurotic
Curious to hear Dr. O's thoughts...
Good luck!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 4:45 pm:
If he only tippy toes on hard surfaces he may be just tender footed and not actually sore. For horses sound on pasture I don't think bute would be indicated but both of these evaluations need to be verified by someone who can see the horse.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 8:34 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. but should the elevated pulse in the RF concern me? It was still quiet tonight but we had rain and the ground is soft. Is an elevated pulse especially in one hoof unusual for just pulling shoes? Sorry for all the questions, but I want to stay on top of this.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 6:15 am:
Diane, the only thing I really know about this pulse is what you tell me. Horses often have clinically insignificant pulses that are not always bilateral. And it is hard to imagine it has significance when the horse is sound on pasture but on the other hand your horse is tenderfooted on hard ground and maybe this is the expressions of low grade lameness? I cannot make this judgement for you.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 2:19 pm:
Just a little update, I rode Hank today and when I crossed the road he walked normal, we even had to go on some gravel and he did very well.
He continues to have an elevated pulse in just the right front and that is the one he will stutter step on occasionally? Other than that perfectly sound.
THANKS AGAIN Dr.O.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 2:42 pm:
Yippee for you!!! It sounds like you've got your boy figured out Keep helping me work on mine 
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 6:36 pm:
Thanks Aileen I hope I have it figured out. Time will tell I guess, but I am very happy so far. I thought I had lamed my poor fella for life, and it depressed me all winter. ( He is my baby ). Have faith with Dr.O.'s help hopefully your boy will be sound soon too, you can see how long this post has been going on, so it takes awhile.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 6:56 am:
Glad to hear things are going well Diane! But before I get a swollen head, let me clarify the nature of my help here. I can educate you on the proper care, diagnosis, and treatment of horses in general, at least as I see it. You have the difficult part as you take this information and judge how it applies to your situation then act on this decision.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 7:23 am:
Dr.O. Go ahead and get a swollen head, out of all my horse problems you have never steered me in the wrong direction! I need steering alot. I tell everyone about the great internet vet I have, along with my in person vet. I finally have 3 healthy horses!!!!! and you helped me with all 3 of them.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 10:10 am:
Hi Dr.O. Old man winter blew in this week and the ground is frozen solid and irregular in places.
Hank is tip toeing around on it and seems somewhat uncomfortable. Slightly elevated pulses in front, no heat. I called vet for his advice, he said to wait it out for awhile and see if the tenderness dissipates. He also said to give him 1 gr. bute a day. He said beings he is o.k. in the pasture where there is deep grass, and on normal ground hopefully he will come around.
I am willing to give this time, but in the meanwhile is bute a good idea? Does putting iodine on the sole help toughen it. We had a weeks worth of rain and mud before this all froze, would that have soften his soles up? He seemed good until then. I am kind of guageing this by my other horse who went barefoot 8 weeks before Hank and he seemed to go thru the same thing. He is good on the frozen ground now, but he tiptoed around for about 2 mos. first. Hank is more of a drama queen than the other one, and doesn't tolerate pain as well. All of these hoof and farrier issues have me paranoid now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 7:32 am:
I think the bute is a good idea and yes, painting the soles to hasten toughening will help. Our recommendations are at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Poor Horn Quality: problems with the wall and soles.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 6:59 am:
Thanks Dr.O. Surprisingly enough Hank has already improved greatly, with no bute. That tip toeing around struck fear in my heart, as that is what he was doing before he broke down last winter.
I think I just paniced, before giving him a chance.
yesterday he was cantering in the pasture on the hard frozen ground (drug free)
Thanks.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 2:57 pm:
I hope I am going to finally be able to put an end to this long thread! I think Hank is CURED, the pulse in rt, front dissipated about a week ago.
I rode him yesterday and he offered a trot on the road (hard ground) so I let him, and he didn't miss a beat. Usually he is trying to sidle in to the ditch (even with shoes) to get on the soft ground!
He will still tip toe on hard,frozen, irregular ground, occasionally but so do alot of horses. I am so pleased, I didn't think it possible!
The only bad thing I can attribute to his new hooves, is his let's go like bats outa he$$ mom attitude is back, But I'll take it. I have to remember how to ride my old sound Hank.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 11:22 pm:
Alright Diane, I am soooo happy for you! I hope someday Levi and I can join you in celebration.
What a great way to start out the new year!
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 30, 2006 - 6:46 am:
Thanks Susan, I hope Levi is sound soon too. It's a great relief when our "babies" feel better
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 8:40 am:
 Winter is back and so is the tippy toeing and bounding pulse in rt. front. lf. seems o.k. My gut tells me something is wrong with that rt. front, beings it is the only one that gets the bounding pulse. The last time the farrier was here he said there was still bruising in his whiteline, less than last trim tho.
I decided to have x-rays taken, vet is coming tomorrow, I will post them if possible to get Dr.O.'s opinion. Dr.O. would side views be enough? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 9:53 am:
As I have counseled before, I would not pay as much attention to the pulse as I would the lameness. Localizing the lameness by exam, including hoof testers, and blocks in more important to a proper diagnosis than a set of radiographs. The radiographs necessary should be directed by the results of the exam and used to clarify the exam.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 10:35 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I can't help myself regarding the pulse (I try) I will have the vet do a lameness exam first. His right front has always been a problem hoof since the founder, and that one had the most rotation. His toes are still to long imo, but if he is backed up to fast he gets mighty sore. I want to keep him barefoot, as he actually seems sounder with out the shoes! The tippy toeing really doesn't bother me, it's the way he plants...stutter steps on the right front that does. X-rays at this point are to make sure his trimming is correct and to make sure his rotation isn't worse. Considering the frozen ground brings on the pulse it would leave me to believe somethings up with that hoof?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 4:59 pm:
Dr.O. The vet was here did a lameness exam, he was negative to hoof tester and flexions were good. Pulse was gone and Hank was SOUND on hard ground at walk and trot The vet had an emergency call and Hank was being a snorty boy today, so his x-rays aren't the greatest and the pics I took of them worse. According to measurements his toe has been backed up about an inch and a half. The rotation doesn't appear to be much better, according to the bad x-rays. Here they are. Vet forgot the hoofwall stuff too. If you have any suggestions I'm listening and I will forget about the pulse!! promise. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 7:12 am:
Between the glare, the cut off toe on the right, and the lack of clear delineation of the wall at the toe I really cannot make much from these Diane. I will try again once I get into the office as that screen displays much better than my notebook.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 7:34 am:
Thanks Dr.O. Here is one of just rt. front, it's a little better
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 8:44 am:
I just noticed, in my first set of x-rays....way up in this post, I have rt.fr & left fr. marked wrong. In case that makes a difference
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 - 5:55 am:
Certainly much improved toe length, flare, and ap balance over the earlier radiographs Diane but without the marker it is hard to evaluate the rotation. Review the recommendations in the article on Rehabilitating Founders to see if you are following all the recommendations.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 - 7:20 am:
Thanks Dr.O. His feet are 100% better looking anyway. The vet said the rotation is the same. Considering I had the first x-rays marked wrong the rotation is worse in his left. The strange thing is, his right is the one that seems to be the one that has been problematic in the past.
The new farrier has only done Hank twice, and the improvement is remarkable in that short of time. Vet said his sole looks a little thinner, and maybe that's why he tip toes on frozen ground.
The ground has remained frozen for the most part and the tip toeing is less. I'm sure the weeks of mud has made his soles very soft.
He remains sound, the vet was actually surprised, considering the rotation and he's barefoot. I was very happy there was no response to the hoof tester! Trotted sound in circle both ways...on hard ground.
I will read the article again and hopefully start correcting the rotation. Considering he is sound, we must be doing something right! Keeping him from getting obese is my biggest challenge, and ignoring "the pulse"
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 6:22 am:
I would not council to ignore it, just keep it in its proper place. There are many reasons to detect a pulse so, when present and there are no signs of lameness, question its significance.
DrO
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