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Discussion on Should I be concerned?
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 5:07 pm:
I have a 2 month Oldenburg colt that is growing extremely fast, I'm 5'6" and we're already eyeball to eyeball. I only give him a handful of grain to give him conform-aid to help with this (suggested by my vet), he gets that, momma, alfalfa & pasture. His brother went through the same thing. Is this just a warmblood thing? He doesn't appear to be uncomfortable & is perfectly sound. Here's a link to his photo at 1.5 mos.
[URL=https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2056017940033444488gzCXYX][IMG]https://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/15018/2056017940033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 4:15 am:
Hi Andrea, I've bred warmbloods with Oldenburg blood[KWPN] and Holsteiners for a long time and yes some of them [especially the male] grow horribly fast, no scientific evidence but some mares seemed to give more and/or richer milk then others.
I tried to stop it as much as I could because to fast growing foals are more at risk as we all know for a load of problems
I tried to feed mommy not to rich[but then she usually started to 'give herself away' and got very thin]give her and the foal as much space to take exercise on their own, but locked them up for the night so the foal would take a good rest. Some people advised to leave them out 'to suffer' a little more because they thought that would stop growth but imo it only gave same growth less quality.
Usually they got trough this period on their own [with good balanced mineral and vitamin additions] we got in trouble if they had to stay locked up because of illnesses from time to time.
A few times we ended up with a 'wobbler' and or serious OCD.
Most of the time they repeated this [to me frightening] growth spurt at the age of 1 to 1,5 yeareven though we kept them in good condition and with lots of outdoor playing space and time.
Most of these [come to think of it ALL] were male foals.[And most of them got trough fine!]
Just my personal experiences though I am curious what Dr. O will say.
Jos
PS Some lines would do this more then others especially for instance the old 'Ramiro' lines
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 6:39 am:
Andrea, using the Henneke condition scale, what are the current body condition scores of the mare and foal? Also how much does a handful of grain weight, how many handfuls does he get, and how much alfalfa by weight is the foal getting every 24hours? For more on the Henneke scale see: Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Estimating Weight, Height, and Body Condition Scoring.
DrO
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 11:02 am:
I would give the colt a 4 and the mare between 3 & 4. The foal is between 250 & 300 (it's been a couple weeks since I've taped him) and the mare hovers around 1100 & she's 16.2h. She gets 4 flakes a day + 3lbs grain while the foal gets 1/2 lb grain (about a cup from the grain measure - it says 1/2 lb) or just enough to mix his Conform-aid with some healthy coat (they both get that). I also give the mare apples & bananas with her daily bucket. They are out all day & get put up at night with a mineral block in the box. I just can't keep the weight on the mare, at 2 months he's already sucking her down quite a bit, you can see her ribs but she's getting a bit of a belly. Here's a link to her most recent photo: [URL=https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2590598800033444488OHcctJ][IMG]https://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/13955/2590598800033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Granted it's an action shot but you can see what I mean about her ribs. Overall she looks good but thin to me. I'm afraid to give her too much grain & she colics immediately with bermuda so I can't feed her that to cut the richness of her milk (vet has confirmed it's quite rich). I err on the side of caution with grain but am not sure if I'm giving her enough while keeping a healthy balance for the foal. I appreciate your advice!!! Oh, my mare is a 14 year Anglo-Trakehner and she's never been a heavy horse. Here is a photo of her at her best healthy weight: [URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/1322867151033444488WPiBuD][IMG]https://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/28231/1322867151033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 7:30 am:
You misjudge the mares condition Andrea. Using the last photo, the mare is a good 4 and approaching a 5. Notice how some of the ribs are covered the spine is totally covered and the neck has a fair amount of fat. But I cannot judge the foal from this angle and he is the one we need to look at to determine if he is receiving too much nutrition.
It is normal for mares to be losing condition at this stage of heaviest lactation and soon as the foal increases intake of hay and concentrate nursing and lactation will decrease a bit. Of course if she is normally a difficult keeper this will magnify the problem.
For helpful hints on adjusting nutrition of the nursing mare see Equine Reproduction » Pregnancy, Foaling, & Neonatal Care » Care of the Newborn Foal and Mare. For more on feeding difficult keepers see Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. But these articles should be read only after Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses is read and understood.
DrO
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 10:33 am:
The last photo was my mare about 6 years ago when she was in peak health & had weaned her first foal (that was her in the photo in front of the mare). I was just showing that as an example of her peak health. I agree, in that photo she was easily a 5. Currently you can see her ribs and she hasn't had a crease on her back since just before she foaled, at her pelvis you can see the bone at the top (with two bumps), it's hollow around her withers and her spine is apparent all down her backline. I'll take a more recent photo this weekend so you can see what I mean. This is her at about 8 mos of pregnancy
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2476102660033444488guqYyt][IMG]https://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/5105/2476102660033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL] and this is shortly before she foaled the last time [URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2791115760033444488pypPjx][IMG]https://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/43455/2791115760033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
This photo is about a month ago [URL=https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2990070340033444488MusFVS][IMG]https://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/33988/2990070340033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL] She looks pretty good here although a bit dirty, baby looks great (those loose wraps around his hocks were for bed sores which have since healed. I'll take a shot of her & the colt tomorrow in her box from overhead so you can see her back. He's easily grown a foot since then! The reason I'm concerned is she's never been sucked down quite this much at this point, it may be her age (14) but I want to make sure. I've just added Blue Tag (bermuda pellets) to her daily intake along with her 4 flakes of alfalfa, 3lbs of grain & healthy coat. I do have my vet coming out to check her teeth next week and she is wormed regularly. Last time she's had her teeth floated is about a year ago.
I'm sorry I don't have a recent photo here, they're on my home computer and I can't access them. I will post again with up to date photos.
Thanks so much Dr. O!!!
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 10:50 am:
Jos, I meant to respond earlier! Thank you for sharing your valuable experience with me! He is by Rosenthal (Hanoverian) and the mare is Anglo-Trakehner (by Beaute' who was 17.1/4h)so he's got a lot of height in his pedigree. The mare is 16.2. Little Rafael is very active, in fact he does laps around the yard at frightening speed much of the day. I've never had a foal so active but imo that's a good thing. His yearling half brother is an Irish Sport Horse by Touch of the Blues & is much more laid back. I'll update with photos this weekend - here's his bro as a yearling:
[URL=https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2289331250033444488SQGANb][IMG]https://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/12988/2289331250033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL] He went through a bout of fast growth when he was about 4 months at which point the vet had me wean him. Here were his knees at that point [URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2554055410033444488xPOurp][IMG]https://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/30381/2554055410033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL] He is fine now but I had a panic over that. Here he is at about 5 months [URL=https://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2014228680033444488CRzPtt][IMG]https://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/41188/2014228680033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Anyway, thanks again & current photos to come. Sorry to sideline with my last colt, just wanted to show what he went through. Vet attributed it to the mare's milk and he was by an Irish Draught which the stallion owner tells me are notorious easy keepers.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 10:10 am:
Andrea, Rosenthal is Rubinstein blood known for big horses[tall not so much heavy]. As your mare seems to give big ones to[well fast growing]not supprising you get startled by there growspurts from time to time, hang in there if they behave like mine they will keep doing this for another few years! 
In the pictures they didn't seem really excessive to me[I mean I have seen worse without ongoing problems] but you had to male foals, good chance if she delivers a mare next time you can enjoy yourself without anxiety[or she will get fat on the rich milk]
Keep the pictures coming if only because it is so nice to see how a foal grows into being a [useful] horse!
Jos
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 2:45 pm:
Thanks again Jos! Little Rafael is growing so fast! I appreciate the insight on the Rubenstein bloodline, it's my first foal from a Hanoverian stallion so I'm not too familiar with them, Rosenthal's foals were so consistent and so nice I just had to breed to him!
As for the photos, as promised Dr. O here is the mare today & the foal as well. You can't really get a good idea of his weight with his fuzzy coat but I've included a shot his knees & hocks which are my main concern.
Here is little Rafael, at 2&1/2 months his back is now up to my chest, he's the tallest, fastest growing foal I've ever had, I just don't want him to get in trouble with his joints while at the same time I want to keep the mare at a healthy weight.
This is my first attempt at posing photos so hopefully I've done it right (can't see in the preview) - if they don't show up I'll just give links in another post.
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 3:57 pm:
Okay, here are links to the photos:
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2179436320033444488oZnTfe][IMG]https://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/3415/2179436320033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2634478720033444488blqmZL][IMG]https://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/38114/2634478720033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2165552800033444488DPmHtW][IMG]https://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/6671/2165552800033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2987471900033444488ZjspjL][IMG]https://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/22954/2987471900033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2816916900033444488uEpCSg][IMG]https://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/40706/2816916900033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2853476840033444488JRHmQd][IMG]https://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/512/2853476840033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2120837500033444488RjxZSD][IMG]https://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/43407/2120837500033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
And Rafael
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2909488930033444488aNtzIc][IMG]https://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/24485/2909488930033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2606755430033444488SdrJDk][IMG]https://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/19618/2606755430033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2038763710033444488HxhYtS][IMG]https://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/28681/2038763710033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2203048510033444488HcaBHX][IMG]https://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/37972/2203048510033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2577388240033444488ZLzqCS][IMG]https://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/43531/2577388240033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2821055840033444488SqsOIW][IMG]https://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/20358/2821055840033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2156012020033444488MajFlI][IMG]https://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/40294/2156012020033444488S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Sorry about the last post - I have no idea why the photos didn't upload correctly.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 4:29 pm:
Andrea, your little guy is so cute.. He looks like his mommy.. !~ I have some very big foals, your guy looks like them.. happy and active..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 6:35 am:
For more on uploading images see, Help & Information on Using This Site » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting.
DrO
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 10:29 am:
Thank you Ann, he is sugar on hooves. It was funny yesterday, I was doing some sending exercises with him & when I tap him on the rump he tucks his tail like a scalded dog as if he's saying "what did I DO???" lol. Dr. O, would you rather I post photos again after checking the help section or are the links in my last post sufficient? I'll check help before attempting again.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 11:51 am:
Andrea, This foal sounds very sensitive and responsive to your cues.
May I suggest that you slow your cue down a bit (so as to not startle him, and also to give him an oportunity to move before you actually touch him, this is how to get a very light responsive horse) only touch him if he doesn't move.
Also, when cueing to move forward I aim for a spot between his hip and stifle, imo this closer to where a riders crop would ask for forward.
If I am getting a response that is not relaxed, as indicated by the clamped tail, I evaluate my body language, am I relaxed and asking or stiff and demanding; I also like to use a verbal command like aaaannndd wAlk on, aaaaannndd terrrOt, I will lift my cue hand (with or without the lungeline in it)after I say aaaannndd, and only touch them if they don't respond.
I hope this makes sense and my attempt at phonetically spelling what I say is understandable.
Have fun.
Lori
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 12:28 pm:
Thanks Lori, he was balking & I did ask with body language, then vocally & finally by tapping, I wasn't womping him, just tapping behind the hip. It took him a bit before he figured it out, he's a little stubborn & he is still learning. I'm not worried about it, he'll come around, it was just funny as he's the only foal I've had that's ever reacted that way. My main concern in this post is his joints & possibly growing too fast while the mare is loosing weight & the balance therein.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 8:31 am:
If you still have questions that need answering and the photos would help, by all means post them.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 9:10 am:
Ha ha Lori, some of my kids' first words were "Waaalk oon", and "TerrrrrOt!" Non-horsey types think I'm weird I suppose (maybe I am?!), but the horses understand.
As to posting photos, I find that in some older posts the links don't work. A posted photo is always there, though. Also, some folks with slow connections may be reluctant to check links, and they may be just the person with the answer to your questions!
Really nice looking horses, BTW!
Erika
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 10:24 am:
I'll have to resize the photos at home, they're pretty big files, that's probably what happened as I could see the tag lines in the preview but they disappeared in the post, it just takes so long to do that. The links are from my most recent album in Webshots so if it's just the same to you, you can link to the first & scroll through the album. I'll work on resizing but it may take me a few days.
Dr. O, I would still like an opinion on whether the colt is growing too fast, i.e. joints & how to balance that with keeping the mare's condition up as she's too skinny. Thanks!
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 11:24 am:
I think I found a way around Webshots not allowing saving of photos, I've resized them to a width of 300 pixels. Let's see if this works:
Here's the mare
And the colt
Dr O could you tell me if you think his joints are okay or if I should be worried & how to balance the mare's condition (bring it up) while keeping the colt out of danger?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 9:10 am:
Hello Andrea,
In order to make a judgement whether joints are OK requires a thorough examination. Even conformation can be hard to judge from photos without a very good: side, front, and rear aspect image. I don't see anything wrong in the photos above but it is a very limited view we have.
Concerning growing too fast it is a question that has very little meaning: what is too fast? Though you often hear this term it has a uncertain significance from a medical and/or developmental point of view. We often use the term as a hypothesized cause of developmental problems but many "fast growing" foals never have any problems and some "slow growing" foals have a multitude of trouble. There is no rate of growth we can point to and then say "this is too fast". Instead, we recommend you monitor the condition of the foal and aid for a moderate condition as is described, along with the role of nutrition and developmental disease, in Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Feeding the Growing Foal, Nutrition for Young Horses. From you description of your foal's condition above as "a 4", you are on the thin side but your photos in the immediately preceeding posting look to better than a 4. Continue to review the article that describes condition scoring.
Concerning the mare's thinness I certainly think you could increase the amount of feed she is getting to slow down the rapid weight loss you describe and based on the latest images. For more on feeding lactating mares based on their condition score see Equine Reproduction » Pregnancy, Foaling, & Neonatal Care » Care of the Newborn Foal and Mare.
Andrea, it is common when members first come to Horseadvice that they want to be given "specific advice" to address their problems. However it is impossible to give specific and accurate advice over the phone or internet. It will not be based on direct and frequent examination of the problem and there will be no real familiarity with the peripheral conditions present that may effect that advice. Everyday I get long and involved phone calls on horse problems and when I go and examine the horse often things are completely different than described by even experienced horse(wo)men. We see examples of this above in the misinterpretation of your descriptions and photos. And even when good specific advice is given, the proper course will change with time and changing conditions. Anyone who pretends to be able to give such advice does you a disservice and it may harm your horses. Instead to do a good job of caring for your horses you must learn to judge and make decisions based on experience and good information.
We specialize in teaching judgement and then, using your judgement, educate on possible solutions based on the very best science and extensive equine experience. And we try to do this in an easy to use and reference format. To the extent we succeed your horses will benefit.
DrO
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 10:33 am:
Thanks Dr. O, I appreciate the time you took to formulate your answer. I'll check out those articles. I have added Blue Tag bermuda pellets to her bucket & am going to pick up a bag of rice bran tonight. I did not know that fast growing foals could get by without issues, my friends have always freaked out about it so I guess I was following suit - better safe than sorry- no? I've never had one shoot up so fast (or start out so tall) so this is new to my breeding experience.
I did go ahead & have my vet come out yesterday and he gave everyone a good looking over, administered annual shots & floated my mare's teeth (he suggested adding the rice bran to the mare's feed) and said the colt's legs are fine & not to worry. It's a big relief, let me tell you!
He also said that he was looking into some supplements for foals where joints could become an issue & would let me know if he felt I should use any of them.
Thanks again Dr. O!
A
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