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Discussion on Foundered--anyone tried Soft-Ride Boots?
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 12:04 pm:
Here we go again! Poor Sugar is sore again. We manage her as best we can--she is on pergolide for cushings, thyro-L for metabolic synDrOme, and just finished IV antibiotics for Lyme.Limited pasture.
She was trotting around here like a dressage horse until today, very lame front right, big pulses in all four feet.
Vet said give her banamine for a few days, acepromazine for two days, then bute for ??
We taped "Lily Pads" to her feet to make her more comfortable but in my endless research to help this poor girl, I found boots called Soft-Ride. Anybody tried them? They look like an Easyboot with an insert that looks similar to the Lily Pad.
I'm wondering if there is any advantage to using them over my own Easyboots with Lily Pads? Opinions anyone?
Here's the link:https://www.soft-ride.com/
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 8:42 pm:
Hi Erika, I haven't tried the soft-ride, but if she gets along ok in her easy boots I'd get a pair of these and put them in. https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=0d4e9828-a708-4381-839c-4be9cd5de 3e7
Hank lived in these in his old macs. You can cut them to fit any boot. These made him so comfortable when he was at his worst during his founder episode. When the boots started rubbing him I taped them on his feet. It was the best $7 I ever spent and would highly recommend them. Hope sugar feels better soon.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 8:24 am:
Erika, though I have no familiarity with the boots the description of your horse with a remarkable RF lameness is not consistent with typical founders. For more see Diagnosis of Lameness.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 8:42 am:
You know, Dr. O, you're right, because of her history I assumed that was the problem. The vet is coming by today to DrOp off more meds that I'm running out of. I'll have her take a look.
We just consulted by phone yesterday and because of the heat and pulses all around, and the mare's history we concluded it was founder. She does seem sore bilaterally, even quadrilaterally, but most pronounced in the right front.
Thanks for pointing that out, we will revisit the diagnosis.
Erika
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 8:49 am:
Sorry Diane, I meant to address your suggestion. Thank you, I do have quite a collection of those pads already! I found the Lily Pads are shaped better and last longer for my horse. They are rubber and fit around the heel and frog, easy to stay on and they don't crush down like the foam pads.
I usually just tape them on, but for long term I'll probably stick them in the Easyboots.
The Soft-Ride boots look like they would do the same thing, but they have a breathable top to let moisture dry, and they have a rockered bottom for easier breakover. They are pricey, but at this point I value my time more than my pocketbook, and they look like a faster deal than taping!
Its always nice to hear first hand from anyone who has tried something, though. Thanks for your input.
Erika
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 8:48 pm:
I think I'm ready to give up. Sugar is definitely foundered in all four feet. Still very sore, just tolerable with bute and banamine. X-rays again tomorrow. Hoping to get rehab farrier to come from another state to help.
I don't know when to give up. I'm so sad and frustrated to have this grand and glorious horse in such a state! I can't bear to have her in pain so much of the time lately and nothing we do medically seems to stick for long. One problem after another...are they related? Who knows!
For now, I am giving up on barefoot. Nobody's feet have improved one bit over three years of doing everything possible.
I'm tired of arbitrating between vet, farrier, and barn help. I try to tell them that until they have gone to vet school, I'm going with the vet's recommendations. Sometimes they get really p***ed off at me, and I feel like the bad guy, but what am I supposed to do? No two people have the same advice, and at this point I don't even want to hear their opinions. They work for me, right? How do some of you handle this delicate situation?
I don't even care about money at this point. I just want to find the answer to fixing this mare. Not really asking for anything--sympathy, maybe. But at this point, the history and current condition of Sugar has me very discouraged and fearful of having to make a terrible decision.
Thanks, to any of you who have followed our saga.
Erika
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 9:46 pm:
Erika I can so sympathize, hang in there. I know Sugar has more problems against her than Hank does, but I was ready to give up too. It's so frustrating getting different opinions and honestly you don't know what will work until to you try it. I tried to listen to all opinions, some people are quite inventive.
I switched from styrofoam to boots to pads to shoes and pads, back to barefoot searching for something to help.
I really don't want to throw another opinion at you, but the styrofoam protocol for acute founder can't be beat. I used the 1" construction grade styrofoam you can by it at any home improvement store. Hank went from a complete cripple to a comfortable horse soon as these were applied. I have seen the styrofoam work on many, many, acute cases with never a failure to at least make the horse more comfortable and provide CB support.
https://www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/sty_inst.pdf
I hope Sugar improves for you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shoes, they have saved many a horse applied properly. One thing Dr.O. told me through Hanks saga was not to shoe when the founder is acute and the horse painful...I did it anyway on my vets advice, Hank went back to crippled the next day. Stay calm if possible can sense your frustration and understand it very well. Prayers for sugar.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 12:44 am:
Yeah, I know your frustration, too, Erika. I've delt with navicular since the 80's in one of my mares. In 2004, it got really crazy. She was suddenly facing laminitis, then, was diagnosed with Cushings. On top of that, in 2007, we had her one shoe removed ( with rim/wedge pads ), for x-rays, and our vet had a horrible accident at the track, and couldn't come for about 2 weeks. With the missing shoe and rim/degree pad, my mare bowed her tendon on top of the foot problems.....besides the fact that she was 27. I re-habbed her for a bowed tendon, and her coffin joint was injected. Today she is comfortable and functional. It just happened to work out.
We do what we can. It's all we can do. You've been at this so long, Erika, you'll do fine.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 7:37 am:
Erika, I can't offer any practical advice, but do want to say how sorry I am that Sugar is doing so poorly and that you have to go through this.
As to the barn help, take everything said with an open mind, a grain of salt, thank them sweetly for their concern and then go do what YOU think you need to do to take care of your horse. Most are truly trying to help, but we all know that there is a lot of misinformation out there and the best advice is usually that of a trusted vet.
My best wishes for you and Sugar. I hope things start to look up for you both VERY soon.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 9:36 am:
Erika, I just want to add my good wishes. Hopefully you can find a way to get Sugar comfortable.
Lilo
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:33 am:
Thanks you all, for your kind words. Vet was delayed by emergencies so I am currently watching for her out the window.
I will post again when we see more of what we're dealing with.
Again, I do so appreciate your good wishes!
Erika
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:43 pm:
Hi Erika, I have been off-line for awhile and just found your post. I want to add my voice of support as well. Its so hard when your horse is in pain and there is no clear cut path of treatment to follow. I've been dealing with chronic founder for a long time with my older mare. My farrier, who has been shoeing for a long time, is very philosophical about dealing with foundered hooves. What works for one horse does not work well for another, and what works for a horse last year may not work for them this year. You just have to get the best advice you can from trusted sources and go with what makes sense to you.
Like Diane, I have had the best luck dealing with acute laminitis using styrofoam pads. I too would avoid nailing into the foot when the laminitis is active. If you can afford it, go with glue-ons if you choose to shoe. Another middle of the road option is to try taping different degrees of pad support at different angles until you find the most comfortable combination, and then shoe. Keeping my mare on a soft surface also makes a huge difference in her comfort.
I hope things go well. I was very discouraged with my horse last winter, but we kept at it and this spring she is doing sooo much better. Hang in there.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 2:22 pm:
Okay, here's what happened today: Xrays showed minimal to no rotation (less than 5 degrees in the worst foot) but she is still very sore, and there is heat and pulses all around.
We went through everything we could think of pertaining to Sugar's food, surroundings, meds, etc. and could come up with nothing we could think of that is causing this. Sugar is about a 4 on the body scale, and has lost a bit more since this happened.
We pondered about the hay being too sugary/starchy. It is very nice hay, sweet and green. But with only a few bales left, it wouldn't make sense to have it tested.
Since she only gets hay, I don't feel right switching to stemmy, poorer quality hay. I think her nutrition would suffer and she'd lose too much weight. Wondering about an alfalfa/grass mix instead. Vet said "maybe", but no real opinion.
Farrier was here with vet. Put on shoes backward with netting that held in gel padding. Took lots of toe off and we could see the relief in the horse. So that seemed to help.
There we stand now.
Erika
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 3:37 pm:
Erika doesn't sound like her rotation isn't too bad, that's good news . When horses founder as you know it is VERY painful regardless of how much rotation. Hank did very well with the "equithane"...pour in pads, it was when he really turned around when these were applied.
Diet is so hard to figure out, I wonder if you soaked her hay to get the sugars out would help?
I had about 6 good bales of an alfalfa /grass hay mix a farmer gave me it smelled so good and the horses woofed what I gave them down in no time.
Fat ole Hank handled it fine, but my arab gelding who has cushings/IR went lame with in a day with some pulses and heat. He is not fat and I can see his ribs easily. He is back on pure grass hay and some grazing, he is improving daily. I guess the point is, it seems they all have their triggers, figuring them out is another thing.
Glad Sugar is on the mend and continues to improve!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 4:25 pm:
Diane, now why didn't I think of that? When it's your own horse suffering, sometimes it's hard to remember the stuff you ought to know!
Going down to soak some hay for din din! Thanks for the reminder...another reason why this site is invaluable!
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:04 pm:
Hello Erika, if your horse is a condition 4 you do not need to soak the hay. I don't think your problems are related to hypothyroidism, or Lyme disease. If she is Cushingnoid and you are having problems with repeated bouts of founder you should consider uping the Pergolide. However as noted earlier the signs reported here are not clearly founder. If you and your veterinarian are continuing to have trouble understanding what is happening I would recommend a referral to a equine referral center.
DrO
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:23 pm:
Erika: The mare I spoke about above, with Cushings, has had to have her pergolide upped twice. She is on 2mg right now. That is not what she started with. It's been increased two times since she was first diagnosed 4 years ago. The indications that made us request another test, were: footsore, disinterest in life, and not eating well.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:15 am:
Dr. O, why doesn't it seem consistent with founder? Do you mean because of the lack of significant rotation? She has lots of founder rings on both fronts, and that "walking on eggshells" gait. Hoof testers didn't find anything localized to indicate abcess. Heat and strong pulses all around.
Do you agree with Lee's thoughts on the pergolide increase? It was quite an ordeal with the round-the-clock blood tests to get the diagnosis. Do we need to repeat that or should we just try upping the dose? Body-wise, she looks much less lumpy, and her knee swelling is reduced to almost normal since the pergolide. But then, she has always looked better in her summer coat, for some reason.
I would love to take her to New Bolton, or someplace like that. Anybody have any idea as to the costs of doing that? Gotta run it past the husband ATM!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 3:54 pm:
Hi Erika, I have taken horses to well known "big name" clinics on several different occasions, and in the long wrong I believe they saved me money and well as painful time for the horse. I have always felt pricing was fair. You can call and get a rough estimate of costs, and accurate estimates on tests and procedures. Most of these places have a farrier that works with them. He will be more expensive than your farrier at home as a rule, however he will really understand what is going on with your horses and often can get the horses started on the right direction and right out directions for you farrier to follow up. I think it would be well worth your time and money, if it's at all possible for you.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 1:08 am:
Erika: On one of my mare's increases ( of pergolide ), the vet just upped her .5mg. We were to watch for improvement of her symptoms...which seemed to happen in about a week. The vet was willing to up her the second time without a test....but I asked her to do it. It was a confusing time - she'd bowed her tendon, popped an abscess ( that I totally missed ) and she had sore hocks.....I didn't know what symptoms were coming from where.
I agree with Sara, as far as the big name clinics. I've used New Bolton and have no complaints. The charges were reasonable and they did a fine job. There is also another clinic that might be closer to you...Mid Atlantic Equine, in Ringoes. I've used them 3 times and feel the charges were reasonable and the care wonderful. Sometimes these places do save you time and money and a painful horse because they cut right to the chase as soon as you get there. They never kept my horses any longer than necessary and they reviewed every procedure and treatment with me including charges, beforehand. Decisions were all mine and the Drs never hesitated to call.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 9:08 am:
Okay, thanks both of you for the info. I will look into the possibility. I agree, we have spent too much time shooting things at her and getting nowhere. Lots of shoulder shrugs from everyone.
I'll ask my vet her opinion on sending her and what the procedure is. She would probably welcome getting this case off her hands. She is a friend as well as my vet so I will be as diplomatic as I can.
Thanks again, all of you for helping me see the big picture.
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 4:57 pm:
I quote from your first post, "a very lame front right". Unilateral lameness is not usually founder.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 9:07 pm:
Ok, Dr. O, now I see that I mislead you by saying that. She was clearly lame all around, but was picking that foot up as if it hurt more than the others. Later she did the same with the opposite front foot. But it was obvious that all of her feet were sore. She was reluctant to move at all, and turning looked excruciating. Sorry, I left out some info.
As her level of painkiller is high again, she seems to be willing to move about a little. I will be asking about a referral on Monday or Tuesday when I return home from out of state.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Jun 9, 2008 - 3:55 pm:
Here's the latest on my frustrating case.
The group practice's vets got together to review Sugar's situation. They also got a vet from Cornell University's hospital involved.
The consensus is that there was no change in the xrays from this episode of lameness. The less than five degree rotation of the one foot was unchanged, and may not be rotated at all (they said its possibly just from a different trim).
The retest for Lyme's showed the same level as before our IV antibiotic treatment. No higher, but no lower. It was recommended by Cornell's vets to start IV treatment again for another 21 days to see if we get the same obvious improvement we got last time after 2 weeks.
I guess they are finding that this year it is taking a more protracted treatment to get rid of Lymes (if we believe it is affecting horses at all).
The group in our practice did not think a referral to Midlantic would be in order since they've had their "pow wow" with Cornell.
So, tomorrow we will reinsert the IV catheter and see if we can figure it out from there.
Record heat here, 100 degrees again today and our air condition in broken. I feel for the horses, they never get cooled off.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Jun 9, 2008 - 4:25 pm:
Hi Erika, so does that mean that Sugar didn't have laminitis after all? That would be good news. I guess if Lymes requires longer treatment then it makes sense to begin another course of antibiotics.
So is the Lyme disease causing an arthritic inflammation the way it does in people? Is that what is causing her lameness? Poor Sugar, and poor you dealing with all this in the heat. How does she appear to be feeling? Good luck with your AC. Until then, lots of water, Gatoraid, fans, and misting from the hose - just like for the horses!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Jun 9, 2008 - 5:31 pm:
I assume so, Jo Ann. My vet talked about another horse with a similar situation where she said the inflammation was somewhere near the coffin bone and when it was blocked the horse was fine. This horse was treated at length for Lyme and I believe it was eventually sound.
Vet said to taper off the laminitis treatment once Sugar is on the IV again.
Getting plenty of water misting. Trying to grow new grass so I am running through the sprinkler every time I move it!
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 5:43 am:
Hello Erika,
We have a article we published last month on Lyme Disease and Horses and what is known about it and some of the treatment problems involving other species. Check it out at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Lyme Disease, Borreliosis, in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 2, 2008 - 10:55 pm:
I updated the other Lyme article on Sugar, time to update this one too. After the last treatment with tetracycline, Sugar has improved, and so far has stayed improved! Yay!
Again, I do understand, Dr. O that it may be coincidental, or something else that was fixed by the antibiotic. But whatever the reason, sweet Sugar is herself again..
I haven't ridden her all this time. Didn't realize it had been so long! But I went to Holly's in Kansas, and have been banished from the inside of the barn while my husband creates my dream tack room, etc. so really haven't been in riding mode.
Weather is moderating, barn is finishing, so soon I will ride my terrific horse again and let you know if she is totally back.
I cried rereading the thread--reliving the fear for Sugar . Thank you all, once again for being there for me. No one understands the connection to a truly special horse better than other horse people!
Thanks,
Erika
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 12:01 am:
Erika, I'm so glad you updated on Sugar. And, so glad she is doing better. What a struggle! I hope she is back to her old self. Just take it easy on her for awhile, as I'm sure you will. Hooray and hugs for you both!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 7:33 am:
Erika, that is such good news about Sugar!!
It's always a stress when our "special" horses are hurting. Good for you for taking the time and money to figure it out.
Let us know how your ride goes!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 9:17 am:
Congratulations Erika delighted to hear your horse is doing better.
DrO
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 10:38 am:
Great news, Erika! Looking forward to hearing how that first ride goes on Sugar -- I bet you'll have a well deserved, mile wide grin on your face when you climb back out of the saddle!
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