|
|
Discussion on Does this look like WLD?
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 5, 2008 - 5:16 pm:
Talked to the vet and he said there is no such thing as WLD...sigh. After some chit-chat he knew what I was talking about, but for some reason has a different name for it. Once we were on the same page he said he has never removed hoof wall because of it and didn't want too. I'm not sure Hank has WLD, but something is funky with the left front, which is featured in the pics. His right fores white line looks much better and healthier considering. We can't seem to make any headway with this left front for some reason. Help!
X-ray of left front end of April
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 5, 2008 - 11:32 pm:
Dr. O. Here's a little closer view. I have been wondering if that lumpy stuff right at the corner of his heel (on the outside) is WLD his whiteline has been full of it. That is the rubbery thing I have spoke of before. I can scrape it off with a hoof pick and usually it has the black ring under it. The 2 dents at the toe is where the abscesses were
Is that what is considered cheesy looking stuff? It looks just like cottage cheese..Thanks
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 7:11 am:
I really cannot tell looking at the images. Reread the description carefully Diane: is the white line degenerating under the wall into a cheesy consistency?
DrO
|
New Member:
caballus
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 7:31 am:
Doesn't look like WLD to me .. just looks like you have hooves that need a good, correct, balanced trim. Please go here: www.barefoottrim.com and click on Education to find an article on Balanced Hooves.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 7:54 am:
No I don't think it is under the wall. Tho very stretched and areas of seedy toe present. This may sound like a stupid question, but what is a "cheesy consistency"
Gwen I have read so much about balanced hooves my head spins . This horse has a history of founder,ltlh synDrOme, and seemingly IR.
The farrier I have now walked right into the train wreck. Believe it or not his hooves are greatly improved. I hope you are right and it isn't the beginning of WLD, although my gut tells me it is. Thanks
|
New Member:
caballus
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 8:48 am:
Sounds like you've had your hands and head full! I'm glad to read that the hooves have improved. I do think that further improvement could be achieved through trimming those walls down so they are are not weight-bearing by themselves. Think of what would happen if you were to apply inordinate pressure to long fingernails or toenails ... that pressure would eventually begin to tear the nail away from the nail bed. The same thing happens to horse's hooves. When the wall is above the sole then the weight loading will begin to tear the wall away from the "nail bed" (laminae) and that opens the hoof up to invasive bacteria and fungi. (Of which you might be seeing the start.)
If you could get your farrier to bring down those walls and give a good 45* bevel from qtr. around to qtr. (see photo I posted - I highlighted area to be beveled) then I think you'll see an improvement over what you're seeing now. This, coupled with daily walks on hard, firm surface (road) will go a long, long way to full recovery.
I know there is ALOT of information 'out there' and it can be totally overwhelming. I deal with hooves like this all the time. A good trim, good diet individually determined, care for any metabolic issues (IR, Cushings)and dedication on the part of the horse owner greatly increases the probability of complete recovery.
|
New Member:
caballus
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 8:50 am:
BTW ... wanted to ask, exclaim, "your vet says there's NO SUCH THING as WLD!?!?!?" ... that's nuts. Of COURSE there is such a thing as White Line Disease ... can also be known as dew poisoning, hoof rot or yeast infection. Seedy toe is the start of WLD. Means simply that disease/bacteria/fungi has jeopardized the integrity of the laminae. WLD, as commonly known, can completely destroy the connective laminae if not tended properly and quickly.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 2:41 pm:
Thanks Gwen, yes that was the vets EXACT words....not kidding. I have asked the farrier about beveling and rockering, and rolling the toe, I am pretty sure he doesn't know how to. This is what I am up against.
I love my vet and farrier, but there are some things they are not equipped to handle WLD being at the top of the list!
His walls are not very long, the only part I felt was long was at the heels, maybe with some more studying I can learn to bevel. He is just starting to build some sole, they have been VERY thin and I'm sure the farrier is scared of soring mister sensitive soles. His diet is under control and he has lost #300's over the last year. Surprisingly the boy is sound on all terrain including gravel! Granted I wouldn't want to take him too far down a gravel road, but to walk up our gravel driveway he is fine, also sound on the paved road.
I just have a bad feeling about this left fore having WLD. His right front white line is still stretched, but much improved compared to the left anyway . And it WON"T stop raining!
Thanks
|
Member:
caballus
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 3:50 pm:
Feel free to print out the article on Balance from the website (mine) that I posted. Also, you might want to take a look at Gene Ovnicek's website, https://www.hopeforsoundness.com I don't think he'd mind if you show your farrier the section on Natural Balance TRIM ... I wouldn't advise anyone to try applying NB Shoes without training, tho ... but at least the trim to help explain what the bevel, rocker, proper breakover etc. is.
Good luck!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 4:57 pm:
Diane go into your refrigerator and take out a mild, medium, and sharp cheddar and dig into them with a shoe nail. These are the varying consistencies of WLD though sometimes they are a bit chalkier. Take a piece of chalk and moisten it slightly and repeat with the nail.
DrO
|
Member:
rtrotter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 7:20 pm:
Needless to say there are quite a few barefoot trims that may work. Another view of a barefoot trim can be found at www.equinepodiatry.net.
What I think you need to fix your horse is a barefoot trimmer ( not a farrier, unless the farrier has been educated in therapeutic trims), that will therapeutically fix your horse. Most farriers know how to shoe horses and do regular field trims which are not therapeutic. Horses that go barefoot well use all the structures of their foot during various parts of their stride, they use their inside hoofwalls, their bars, their frogs and their heels, the beveled ( or rockered toe helps them breakover easier so that when they land the forces are disbursed throughout the entire foot instead of on just one part. Farriers, in order to put shoes on horses need a level area to place the shoe and a full hoof wall in which to nail the shoe to, so usually when you ask a farrier to trim a horse, what you get is a trim that you can nail a shoe to, not a trim that will fix the horses real problems, like too much flare, too much toe, uneven or unbalanced feet, under slung heels,or whether one side or the other is too high or low.
I have been using an HPT trim (and a DAEP trimmer) on my horses for over a year, my horses feet never looked better, because their bone columns are in proper alignment, they have concavity it their soles, their soles are much thicker and thus protect the sensitive bones in their feet. The Sigafoos shoes I mention below help keep the trim because once the trim is finished the foot does not have to be touched in order to put the shoe on (except for light sanding on the outside wall for good glue adherence). It helps mimic the trim, which in turn helps stimulate the foot to grow out better.
In case you do not know what a Sigafoos shoe is. It is a shoe that has a pad and a cuff built into it and it does not require nails to apply it. It glues to the outside of the hoofwall and there is no glue on the bottom of the foot at all.
Please don't get me wrong, good farriers are hard to come by and they are useful for their shoeing skills when it is necessary, but for a barefoot horse to stay healthy and happy, you need a good barefoot trimmer. You would be amazed at how quickly your horses feet will adapt and how much sounder they will get. I know I am amazed, every time I take a horse and trim his/her feet properly how much better they act and feel.
Rachelle
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 7:29 pm:
HMMM thanks for the description Dr.O. I don't have any cheese or chalk, but I can now visualize it. .
When I scrape the hoof pick back and forth on his white line I would call it more "woody". SO hopefully this is not WLD and we are still dealing with fall out from the founder. Tonight I took him for a short ride and he was short on the gravel and hard ground Unfortunately, but their hooves are taking a beating with all this wet weather...even the 3 neighbors I have that own horses said their horses have been "off"
I have been keeping them in the dry lean too a couple hours a day to dry them up a bit. For now I will watch his hooves and pray he doesn't have WLD. THANKS
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 6, 2008 - 7:43 pm:
Rachelle you are right and I know all that stuff, believe me I have researched hooves and their problems for years. You are right There is no barefoot trimmers in this area, matter of fact farriers are hard to come by.
If you care to I have pics of his progress in this thread. His hooves really have improved, the farrier doesn't want to be too over zealous or Hank becomes lame. It's quite a balancing act, but he has come from DEAD lame to reasonably sound barefoot.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/218714.html
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 19, 2008 - 7:42 pm:
Dr.O. as I was cleaning Hanks feet tonight it occured to me that rubbery ring I talk about is the cheesy type stuff, as I was scraping it off it reminded me of your description above. (DUH). This is only in his left front... the one we can't seem to get a handle on, this could be the reason.
I read the article again and am wondering how you tell if it has undermined the wall? A black ring is usually under the cheesy stuff, I have been scraping it all out ...Cheese and black ring, and then putting Iodine on it, sometimes thrush stuff and sometimes dry cow stuff. It seems to be getting better, his hooves don't have any cracks,chips or flares (at the moment). Since starting this treatment his white line seems to be shriveling, best way I can describe it.
His hoof doesn't seem to be hollow sounding. How do I know if it is undermining his wall? I am fairly certain this is WLD, I have pretty much eliminated it at his quarters I think, but his toe is being a little more stubborn. Can I treat this without removing the wall if it hasn't gone to far?
Thanks
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 20, 2008 - 9:03 am:
Does removing the abnormal stuff lead you under the wall so you are having to dig a hole in the white line?
DrO
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 20, 2008 - 5:09 pm:
Unfortunately I can't get it all dug out at his toe, so I don't know. Thanks
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2008 - 6:16 am:
And why can you not get it all dug out?
DrO
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2008 - 6:53 am:
I don't have a hoof knife, which is probably a good thing. The "cheesy" stuff is tougher at his toe and won't scrape off with my hoof pick.
When I try to scrape it of it crumbles some, but I can't get most of it...it is like rubber.
Thanks
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2008 - 1:06 pm:
Dr.O. I'm sure you can't tell by the pics, but thought it worth a shot. In the pic with my thumb in it, I put it next to the lumpy stuff I scraped. To the right of that starting below where that ding in his hoof is, is what I call the rubbery string is to the right it starts at the ding in his hoof
In the second pic the rubbery string starts right at the ding and goes to where I scraped it. It looks kind of like a worm there.
It looks like his hoof wall is very long, but in reality it is flatened out, like it is pulling away, which I take as a not so good sign.
After scrubbing the mud off I noticed his wall has broken off at the quarters. It looks like he needs a trim again, when the farrier was done it looked ok. which was only a couple weeks ago. Does WLD make the hoof wall pull and flaten out that quickly? Thanks
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2008 - 7:28 pm:
Dr.O. I treated Hanks left hoof tonight again and actually his right one and both rears are the same.
Then moved on to the other gelding and mare (been ignoring their hooves lately). Sam has the same thing as Hank except I can remove the Chesse stuff easier and there is a solid black line going around his hoof and is very chalky....same with the mare. except I can't do her back hooves. When I scraped back and forth hard as I could I still never met solid anything. However it seems his soles are very chalky too.
Could this just be from the continued wet exposure? Do they get thrush of the white line? (solid black line) not focal areas. What are the chances of all 3 having WLD? I guess I better have the vet out, but I hate to when I know he won't do anything. I put thrush stuff on all feet tonight. Thanks
|
Member:
leilani
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2008 - 11:30 pm:
Hi Diane,
Do you use anything on the horses hooves other than thrush buster type stuff? It is our rainy season now and it's raining cats and dogs so to speak.
I am going on my 2nd year of Keratex Hoof Gel and it really works. Occasionally Mele has some separation of the white line, but I use a hoof nail, clean it out and then apply liberal amounts of the Gel. The directions say the hoof has to be clean and dry, but I do my best. Today was a bit moist, so I used an old sock to dry the hooves and then slapped on the Gel.
It's very frustrating.
Drink wine. Take care. Leilani
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 22, 2008 - 6:57 pm:
Diane,
I don't see anything wrong in the images but that does not mean white line might not be present, just not that visible.
DrO
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 22, 2008 - 8:56 pm:
Dr.O if a horse had a MAJOR case of WLD would it show up in photos normally? I've looked high and low for pics of the beginning stage of WLD and came up empty. Thanks
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 8:17 am:
No it is not visually impressive which is why it is often missed until a significant amount of the hoof wall undermined. The article describes the diagnostic criterion.
DrO
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 6:38 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. Just one more question, more out of curiosity than anything. IF a horse has rotation of the CB and WLD is it possible to "derotate" them?
Would the diseased white line keep the bone from attaching correctly if it had undermined the wall?
Thanks
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 1, 2008 - 7:19 am:
Yes they can be derotated, and the treatment for the WLD can occur concurrently as the derotation.
DrO
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 1, 2008 - 6:50 pm:
Hey Diane, been off the site for a while, but you are talking to a real pro on the white line issue. Levi had rotation and wld. We worked to get him derotated, and as his new foot grew, it became more stable inside the hoof capsule.
I, like you, am a neurotic hoof watcher. Having seen the actual white line disease, which is very much like cottage cheese and sometimes appeared blackish as well. It was not hard to dig out, once you find it, it is just dead and scrapes out tooooo easily.
I also have the issue of the chalky stuff that you are referring to, I have come to the conclusion that the more chalky stuff, is due to the moist/dry conditions on bad feet. I still scrape it out when I find it, and put betadine on it often.
Levis' hoof problems have led me to almost have a ruptured disc in my back. My chiropractor and doctor, showed me how I must pick feet now. 2 times a day for 7 weeks treating Levi, wrapping, soaking, picking, I thought I had sciatica, but it ended up being an abused muscle.
I have just about given up on his feet, and am just checking periodically. I must say I am not as crazy, so I hope nothing is brewing in there.
Good Luck but try not to drive yourself crazy with worry. I know as I speak from experience
suz
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 1, 2008 - 8:18 pm:
Thanks for the description Susan. I decided not to drive myself crazy and what will be will be, not much to be done about it anyway if he does have it.
I treat his hoof every other day and I must say from your description I'm not sure what his problem is, but it doesn't scrape off easily, maybe it is too much moisture, especially since the other 2 seem to have the same thing
He is sound (for Hank anyway) barefoot.
Sorry about your back. How is Levi doing?
|
Member:
babychop
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2012 - 7:56 pm:
It could be the beginning of white line disease - it's worth it to try this stuff:
My farrier recommends White Lighting and so far it's making a huge difference for my horse. It is a very mild solution that you mix with white wine vinegar and water then vet wrap the boot around the leg so the gasses work their magic on the disease. You repeat the soak 2-3 times a week for 40 - 45 minutes for the first 4-6 weeks and then about once a month for maintenance after that.
Here's a link to it. https://www.grandcircuitinc.com/
You use 2oz each time mixed in equal parts with the vinegar and enough water to come halfway up the hoof. I bought the 64oz, glad I did.
Clean Trax is another solution you could try but my farrier likes white lightning better: https://www.kvsupply.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf_id=50318&gift=False&0=dept%2Easp%2 Cdept_id%3D198%26Tree%3D%2CComplete%20Catalog&1=dept%2Easp%2Cdept_id%3D122%26Tre e%3D0%2CEquine&2=dept%2Easp%2Cdept_id%3D1107%26menu_id%3D%26Tree%3D1%2CHoof%20Ca re%20%2F%20Farrier&3=dept%2Easp%2Cdept_id%3D556%26menu_id%3D%26Tree%3D2%2CHoof%2 0Care%20Dressings&HSLB=False&refcode=Google&gclid=CJ_rttX82LACFUQ0QgodRV-Z3w
Oh, you want the liquid, not the gel. And you might want to invest in a Clean Trax boot, the ones that come in the kit with the White Lightning will need a serious coating of Gorilla Tape if you don't want them to rip the first time you use them. Here's a link to Clean Trax boot: https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=3190032a-6d05-4ffb-a539-4591c1bf9 bff&gas=clean%20trax%20boot
|
|
|
