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  Discussion on Horse got laminitis yesterday & vet's attitude
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Member:
jchadola

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 5:41 pm:

I may be posting in the wrong place. If it is in the wrong place, if it can be moved, please move it. I don't want to under the wrong heading.

My 8-year old quarter horse gelding, Titan, whom I love dearly, got laminitis yesterday. I called my vet and she refused to come out because it was Sunday and it wasn't an emergency. It was an emergency to me! I found out she was the vet on call. When I called her back to see if she knew of a vet who would come out, she was rude and "growled" at me that she would come out. When she came out she was cold and unpleasant.

I called my farrier, she said she was supposed to see a pony that had laminitis but he had stabilized so right now Titan was more important so she would be there in about an hour. She even stayed an extra 1/2 hour to wait for the vet. She was amazing. She felt it was laminitis. She pulled his shoes off when she got to the barn.

The vet agreed it was laminitis and said to put lots of bedding in his stall and as soon as he can tolerate it, get him exercising by walking him in a straight line in the riding ring twice a day. She said even taking him out of his stall, have him walk a bit and put him back in would be helpful.

She said he was overweight - I hadn't noticed. My farrier suggested putting on the bottom of his hoof a product which I had read about and asked her about the day before coincidentally (she had it but hadn't used it yet). The vet didn't oppose it and my farrier felt it would help him stand more comfortably. So that was done. He was to be given only a handful of grain and I assume his hay would be cut down. Until the lady who looks after my horses (who is wonderful and called me right away when she noticed he was in pain) gets the hay analyzed which my vet recommended, she is to soak the hay - I guess to get the sugar out of it? He is to have bute. He is also to wear a grazing muzzle.

The other thing the farrier was wondering about related to a medication he had been given in his feed for about 2 months (I'm not sure) - isoxsuprime - and to double the BMZ hoof supplement to get his soles harder and thicken his walls. The 2 things worked miracles - his soles are rock hard and his walls are amazingly thick - but the isoxsuprime made more blood go to the feet so my farrier was concerned it contributed to the laminitis? - so that is the first question.

I'm looking at Dr. O's articles but are there any further suggestions to help the derotation occur and to help him recover? My farrier said she could feel a bit of rotation.

I just want some suggestions as to anything else I can do and can ask my vet and farrier to do.

As an aside, I've had both hips resurfaced (like hip replacements) and needed a super-safe horse to ride who would not spook. Titan is the perfect horse for me. Besides wanting him to get better because I love him so much, I need him to ride. I have been going through severe depression for a year or so and one of the few times I am not depressed is when I am riding Titan. So he is a therapeutic horse for me. My legs are weak as I fell on concrete on my face last November/07-doctors seem uncertain if I have a head injury and I have no diagnosis - I lost my sense of balance and kept falling - a lot of my balance is back but it's not perfect. Riding helps me with my balance and helps me strengthen my legs. They are weak because I couldn't go to physio after hip resurfacing in Aug/07 because of how I felt after falling on my face and hitting my head so hard and I was in bed a lot because of depression and pain (I've had chronic pain for 35 years but it was more of an ache - since a car accident in July/07 and the fall in Nov/07, the pain in my low back, knees and feet is very bad). Riding Titan helps strengthen my legs. So I really need him but I want him not to be in pain. I hate to see him in pain.

I can say that the attitude of my vet made matters worse for me because of what I've been going through. I didn't need her to refuse to come out, to suggest laminitis is not serious and to be rude to me. I am in a terrible state at the moment. It would probably be accurate to say I am freaking out.

Any suggestions in addition to the above would be appreciated. Also my farrier wonders if he was on the isoxsuprime too long (I certainly don't blame her for it - I got it from the vet who said she didn't use it much so she was aware he was on it and didn't warn me if it could contribute to laminitis).

Please give me your thoughts and advice. I adore this horse.

Janice
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 6:18 pm:

Hi Janice; I can feel your pain coming through your post. I feel so sorry for you. However, you have caught your horse's laminitis right away and have begun to treat it. Most horses that are treated immediately recover. So much is being learned about laminits and founder that farrier's and vet's didn't know before, that a horse's chances of recovery and being rideable are much better than they used to be.

I'm not sure how anyone can "feel" rotation in a foot; I thought x-rays were needed. It's my opinion that x-rays should be taken so you can see if there is rotation and how much. The first priority, however, is to get your horse comfortable, to discover what the cause of the laminitis is and to make necessary changes, and to treat the immediate inflamation. It sounds to me like you've taken a lot of the needed steps.

I don't know what product you are talking about putting on his foot. We always use a dense foam pad initially that is duct taped on. There are some good types of pads and pad/shoe combinations out there. It's important, though, to know get the horse's feet trimmed to the correct angle before a shoe is put on, and you need x-rays to do that. I believe the article Dr.O has posted on laminitis goes into this. Some members previously posted some great web sites about laminitis, some of the sites are support boards. If some of the other folks on HA read this, maybe they can repost the web sites; or maybe you can do a search for them.

I understand how important a horse can be to you. I've had illness and some tough going at different times over the years, as have many others on HA. I think sometimes the horses are what kept me going during those times. I'm sure you'll hear from other people that think the same way.

Hang in there; don't panic and don't give up hope. Learn as much as you can. The bute, soft bedding, pads on the feet, and correct feed will help your horse over the acute phase of his laminitis. Corrective trimming, possible pads and shoeing, done with the help of x-rays, will help him further. Good luck; and let us know how you and your horse make out.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 7:05 pm:

Thanks Sara. My farrier just said she thought she could feel his coffin bone. But I am having x-rays done in a couple of weeks. My farrier is extremely knowledgeable.

I can't remember what the product was called she put on his feet. It was advertised I think in The Horse magazine. It is initially soft then becomes like rubber so somewhat like a pad except it is put exactly where you want it. The lady who looks after my horses said he seemed to be hurting less today and she took him into the ring for a walk and that seemed to go well. I'm going to buy a grazing muzzle this afternoon for him. The cause would appear to be that he is overweight. My other horse is a hard keeper thoroughbred and I always had trouble keeping weight on him. He is 25 and looks marvelous. So when I got Titan and he was an easy keeper, to see him looking "round" looked good to me. I didn't realize he was overweight. I don't know if the isoxsuprime the vet provided at the recommendation of the farrier was given for too long and could have contributed since it made blood go to the foot. The combination of isoxsuprime and doubling the dose of the hoof supplement changed his paper thin soles into rock-hard soles and his walls are visably thick now. But now he has laminitis. The lady who looks after my horses (who is wonderful) said his pulses were less today too. My vet (despite being so nasty yesterday) seemed to have good advice. She thought I could get on him and walk him around at some point but she couldn't say when - she said my horse would let me know - so I guess when he isn't hurting.

The farrier said exactly what you said about the knowledge of laminitis having increased so much over the years.

I take such good care of my horses. I feel so bad that he got this. I should have realized he was too fat. My vet has seen him fairly regularly for vaccinations and other things and never said he was overweight. Why didn't she tell me?

I hope and pray he recovers.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 7:29 pm:

Janice Dr.O. has the best articles on founder on the net, they are facts and not conjecture. You have to be very careful about some of the info out there it can be rather radical. Following his articles and a continual diet my horse is doing wonderful.

I would be very leary of a farrier that says she can feel the coffin bone, if she can your horse is in BIG trouble and I'm fairly certain he wouldn't be walking anywhere.

One thing I learned on here...the hard way was let those hooves rest on soft ground, forced movement can result in more laminar tearing. If he is on bute he might not be feeling the pain as much and cause more damage.

Go here and read it all, it will help your horse.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/18240.html

Hope Titan recovers well for you
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 7:29 pm:

Hi Janice,

I am hoping and praying with you that he will recover fully and you will be able to ride him. Obviously that is so important for you and your health. I have no experience with laminitis, but from what I am reading here you have been given good advice.

All the best,
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 7:36 pm:

Janice I forgot to add I'm fairly certain Isoxoprine Will NOT cause founder. Dr.O. can ans. that. Being fat can.... especially when on a high carb diet with little exercise.

Good luck with Titan.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 7:54 pm:

Well, for what it's worth, I totally disagree with making him move at this point. In acute laminitis, the connection between the hoof wall and the coffin bone is compromised. Forced movement will exacerbate that. I would allow him to move, but not make him and definitely not ride him! Sara is right, the dense foam pads are the best initial treatment. I'm going to sound like a know it all, but it doesn't sound as if your farrier or your vet have much experience with laminitis. Go to a web site like www.hopeforsoundness.com and learn all you can because you are going to have to be an advocate for this horse. Take him off all grain--not even a handful, grass hay only and the minimum amount you can get by with. No grass. Deeply bedded stall. This is an acute event and the treatment you give now will dictate the outcome. If your farrier can actually feel the coffin bone, it's coming through the sole and this is really serious. I don't think that's the case. Otherwise, without radiographs, one can't know what the coffin bone is doing. Your job is to educate yourself. There is not a lot of consensus regarding exercise, but not forcing it in the acute stage will make sense to you when you educate yourself. This can be devastating, or it can be just a management issue and the treatment now will determine that. I don't mean to sound alarmist, but I feel very strongly about getting on top of these issues.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 7:57 pm:

Here's the web page for laminitis. https://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/articles/articlelist.html
Member:
sryder11

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 9:26 pm:

Dear Janice, I have unfortunately dealt with laminitis. Some vets do not know that much about it and you need to find one who does. It is important to give the horse proper foot care. The product you mention might be called equithane. It can be used with shoes or alone as a kind of pad. Isoxuprine should not cause laminitis but it does cause blood to pool in the foot especially if the horse is inactive. I once gave a horse with laminitis isoxuprine (on the advice of a vet) to encourage hoof growth and the fluid which had built up in the foot wound up becoming infected which caused a lot of complications in his case.

Horses with laminitis should be taken off grain as someone else mentioned, and as Julie said they should not be handwalked or exercised, at least for a while. Basically your farrier should be working to support the horse's feet and encourage new hoof growth. Xrays should be done now, not in a couple of weeks. The farrier needs to see the Xrays to know the angle of the coffin bone and to try to re-shape the foot so that the bone stabilizes. If it is truly laminitis the recovery can be many months.

Go to the message boards at the Farrier and HoofCare center (www.horseshoes.com) this site is related to Horseadvice and you can get a lot of help from the farriers and vets there too.
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Monday, Jul 14, 2008 - 9:45 pm:

Whats the grass muzzle for? please don't put this horse on any grass right now.. Don't even buy the durn thing till you know what the heck is really going on. The last thing he needs is lush summer grass.

I agree with the consensus above. take the horse off ALL grains. Only grass hays and yes soaking it will extract stuff out of it. get an xray done and find a farrier in your area that is an expert on founder and laminitis. If yours is great. Ask her to handle it. But any farrier is going to need xrays to get a better handle on what is going on inside that hoof. I too have never heard someone say they can "feel" rotation. Though they have felt a coffin bone DrOp thru into sole.

Get your vet or another one to test for Insulin resistance and cushings related diseases. And see if this might have been the start of it. Overweight and insulin resistance go hand in hand.
Not so sure anymore why as i don't keep up as much with the latest news. But my horse was diagnosed that way. Though we never foundered, came close. And if this isn't an acute case of overeating or over grazing or road founder this has been sneaking up for some time on this horse. And management is the culprit. No matter how sweet the caretaker is, make sure she isn't killing this horse with kindness. no sugar cubes. no carrots. no grain. no alfalfa. etc. nothing that can add to it.

I'm sorry to hear about their attitudes. But it's not something you can change. Nor change on the outcome if you trust their assessments. You just gotta deal with it. Keep in mind they don't know you or your frail state. Which does add to the mix making you hyper sensitive to any injustice you feel. It was after all a weekend. And founder is a huge issue, but something that can be addressed by the owner for a few hours till the office opens. Did you call the vet out in the middle of the day? or night? If it was late at night i'd be pretty pissed too. Too late now but i have activated charcoal on hand for this. I think its still the way to go in dealing with acute onsets of lam. Though again check. Point is following the article Dr. O lines out probably would have gotten you by till the morning.

Hope you feel better soon. A horse is just the ticket to pull you out of whatever rut you are in. Physically and mentally. Taking care of him will be a good thing to help you focus on getting better to take better care of him :-)
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 3:41 am:

Thank you JoJo for you comments. I called the vet at about 1:00 p.m. on a Sunday. She was the vet on call for the area. Given all that and the fact I am a 3 year client, I don't think it was appropriate for her to say she would come out if it was serious, i.e. suggesting laminitis is not serious. She also knows about some of the stuff I've gone through. To me a vet on call, goes out when needed when the call is at a reasonable time and I would have to wait for approximately 18 to 24 hours to have her see my horse otherwise.

There isn't much grass and the only way my horse will ever get turned out is if he is turned out in the field. Apparently when the grass is really short like the small area of grass is there, it is not good for a horse prone to laminitis. So if he is turned out later on with a grazing muzzle and can eat next to no grass, I don't understand the harm in it.

The only reason for a handful of grain is to put his supplements in it otherwise he won't take them.

Thanks Susanne for your comments. I am glad to hear that Isoxuprine should not cause laminitis. The product may be the one you mention; it is soft like soft rubber and I think it can be used with and without shoes. Thanks for the link to the message board for farriers and hoofcare.

Thanks Julie for the link and your comments.

Regarding handwalking, when I went to see him tonight, he wanted to walk. He would have pushed open the stall door on his own if I hadn't opened it. There was no lameness. I would never try to force him to walk. Yesterday, he did not want to move. Today he wasn't forced. It was clear he wanted to move.

I would really appreciate Dr. O's comments on handwalking him when he obviously wants to walk and isn't lame.

I've left a message for a vet who has been around for years and I used prior to moving my horse to see if he knows a vet who is a specialist in laminitis.

Julie, I read some of the articles on the "Hope for Soundness" website. The author of one of the articles was adamantly opposed to keeping a horse in a stall and indicated there was quick improvement once the horse was put in a small paddock. Titan is in a stall with lots of bedding but today he was taken to the ring and seemed very happy to get out. Yesterday he stood with his feet in front of him. Today he was standing normally. One of the articles said that horses often don't want to eat when they initially have laminitis. Titan wants to eat and was clearly confused when he got no grain tonight and a small amount of hay.

We used a tape to try to estimate his weight. He is a 15.2 hand high quarter horse. As I recall, the weight tape showed he weight around 1,036 lbs.-I cannot exactly remember but it was around there. To me he does not look "fat". He is not cresty. He had daily turnout. I have not been able to ride him for long periods and only once a week but when he was turned out every day, he was constantly moving - all the horses did, with moments of galloping around the field. Last fall, my instructor was riding him once a week and he would get a good workout. I didn't ride until the last couple of months because first my hip resurfacing in August - I could have ridden 3 months later so the end of November but just before the end I fell and hit my head hard but my instructor rode him as often as he could. Now my instructor has not been able to ride him but I have been for a short period once a week. So he is not getting lots of exercise but he moves around all day with the other horses in addition to my riding him once a week.

Diane - thanks for your comments. I read Dr. O's articles and what has been done for Titan doesn't seem far off from what he recommends. Titan's shoes were removed. He has thick soft bedding. No one forced him to move. He is in his stall almost all day. Today he really wanted to have a short walk. He has the soft rubbery stuff on both front feet. He gets almost no grain - just enough to put his supplements in. He is getting about half the hay he got before - the hay was soaked. The lady who runs the barn had her hay analyzed today. Titan seems to feel good and is not lame.

I would appreciate Dr. O's comments.

Janice
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 5:59 am:

Janice I just want to reiterate, if Titan is on pain meds....bute, banamine...ect. He can still be in pain and do damage without you knowing.

Hank usually looked good when on bute and unfortunately I think I did more damage in his acute stage because of this.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 9:56 am:

Hello Janice,
I don't think the farrier could palpate small to moderate amounts of rotation so don't know what to make of this statement and neither do I believe the isoxsuprine is responsible for the founder. Concerning exercise Janice we do cover this in the article on Overview of Founder under the topic labeled "Stall Rest" but to repeat the advice, I do not recommend hand walking until sound when off pain meds.
DrO
Member:
sryder11

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 12:35 pm:

I think I read somewhere, and/or maybe Dr O has said this too, that no horse was ever harmed by stall rest, however it is definitely true that exercise when you do not know the extent of an injury can be harmful. With laminitis the acute phase of his pain may be subsiding but damage to the hoof can still be done because as Julie stated, even mild laminitis can compromise the foot structures. I would get the Xrays done.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 1:11 pm:

Thanks Diane and Susanne - that is something I have been wondering about all night. I am trying to find a vet who specializes in laminitis but so far no one has called me back.

I would really appreciate Dr. O's comments.

I've got the forage analysis - I'll try to post it:

Grass Hay - JULY DESCRIPTION:
HEATHER LAVALLEE
08.4052
46255 Chilliwack Central, Chilliwack, B.C. V2P 1J7 (604) 702.4538
NIR ANALYSIS AS FED DRY MATTER
MOISTURE 8.08 91.92
PROTEIN 16.75 18.23
NDICP 4.43 4.82
ADF 31.53 34.31
NDF 53.19 57.86
NFC 18.99 20.66
LIGNIN 4.57 4.97
SUGAR 7.39 8.04
STARCH 0.58 0.63
NSC 7.97 8.67
RFV 112.46
CA 0.34 0.37
P 0.23 0.25
MG 0.18 0.19
K 3.18 3.46
These analyses have been prepared for the
private use of our clients and have no legal
status.
DATE: SIGNATURE:
7/14/2008
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 1:44 pm:

I called a vet who is quite a ways away but he used to treat my other horse for years and he has treated a lot of leg conditions which would include laminitis. He also has state-of-the art equipment - an x-ray but the scans are clear like a CT-scan. He can't come out until next Wed. but in the meantime I'll keep Titan in his stall. Thankfully this vet's office is going to call my other vet and indicate she doesn't need to do x-rays as the other vet is coming out for a 2nd opinion - she may be angry but I don't care. I do know he is the vet she turns to when she has questions. I'm going to see Titan today after I go to the dental specialist and just hope I don't run into her as she was going to look at a cut and see if it needs stitches.

I agree stall rest will not make Titan happy but it won't hurt him and without x-rays, I have grave concerns about walking him around when he is on bute.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 9:42 pm:

Well, I did pretty well what everyone suggested on this forum and everyone is angry with me. All I can do is throw up my hands and say "What is wrong with people?" As you know, my 3-year vet who happened to be the vet on call around 1:00 p.m. on Sunday first refused to come out because laminitis was not serious (she seemed to think) then when I called back to see if she knew of a vet who would come out on a Sunday and she growled at me "I'll come out" and was unpleasant when she came out - gee sorry to have destroyed your relaxing afternoon - maybe you should have chosen a different profession - sorry I'm a bit angry now.

So I ended up phoned a vet I used before who has practiced for many years and has an x-ray machine that gives extremely clear images which my vet cannot afford. He is away until Thurs. but the lady in the office was very nice (then) when I told her why I wanted the vet she worked for to come out. She even offered to call my vet and tell her he was coming out for a second opinion. We hoped that she had not gone out there to look at his laceration and feet and done x-rays yet as I could end up paying twice.

The lady who runs the place where I board said the vet was out and already did x-rays. She said the vet told her to put Titan in the ring because he would not have to make such tight turns as he would make in the stall. I said put him back in the stall. So I called the second vet's office and said x-rays had been done but get them sent over then the second vet can decide if he needs to do more x-rays but I wanted him to examine Titan regardless. She said she would call me after she talked to my vet. She never called. I called her and yes she had talked to my vet and I said my vet recommended he be put out in the ring (without developing the x-rays she took). The woman who works for the second vet was obviously pissed off with me because of something my vet said to her about me - I don't know what (sorry for the language) and said "She is a good vet. Do what she says. Put him in the ring." I said but she has not looked at the x-rays and she went on "She is a good vet. Do what she says." I said "No, he is my horse. I am waiting until I know what the x-rays say." So I've got both my vet and this woman who works for the vet I used to use angry with me. So I went out to see my unhappy horse who is in the stall. I felt a pulse still in at least one of his feet and even though he can walk straight and I do not believe is lame, he has trouble turning in his stall. Although that was why my vet recommended he be put in the ring - he would make wider turns. But what if all the other horses started galloping near the ring and he started galloping? Couldn't that be potentially very damaging to Titan's feet? So now I am waiting for my vet to call me and give me the results of the x-rays and probably fire me. My prior vet has been sort of a mentor to her and she would ask him when she did not know what to do. I doubt he will be angry with me - I've never seen him angry but why should I have to go through this with a woman who isn't a vet and never saw my horse telling me what to do? So that is where it is at.

So I am waiting for her call and the second vet is likely going to call me after he looks at the x-rays and I expect he will go out and examine Titan. Hopefully he won't refuse.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 11:38 pm:

Sorry you are having a problem with vets. It can be frustrating when you are trying so hard to do what is right for your horse. I don't understand the insistance of the horse being turned out in the arena or hand walked if he has laminitis. Hopefully, your "old" vet will come through for you inspite of problems you might be having with his office staff. Good luck.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 12:23 am:

Yes Sarah, I agree with you totally. I cannot see how it could benefit him to gallop around the ring. And it's a big ring with hogfuel on it that is uneven. It's natural for one horse who sees the other horses galloping to gallop too. And without knowing the state of his feet which the x-rays should show, I don't understand why this risk isn't seen. I would think that all the improvement would be lost and more damage caused. The vet left a voicemail after she saw him saying he was much better but she had not looked at the x-rays and as I think Dr. O said, stall rest never hurt a horse but I think galloping or doing a lot of walking around the ring could seriously hurt him and impair his recovery. It is about 9:17 p.m. and I have not heard fromm the vet as to the result of the x-rays. However, by now she knows I've asked my old vet for a second opinion - the vet who was and is her mentor (which is the impression I got from her) and she may be furious with me. But I would think she should understand that her rudeness and unwillingness to come out on Sunday has affected my attitude towards her. I expect professionalism from vets. I am a lawyer (on long term disability but I am still qualified to practice) and I would never treat a client the way she treated me. And the comment she would come out if it was serious really puzzles me because all vets know that laminitis can be very serious.

I understand animals much more than I understand people.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 12:44 am:

Thanks Dr. O. I agree with you and my vet wanted him put in a big arena for an hour with all the other horses next to him who could start playing with him over the fence or running and get Titan excited and play and running and that could harm him. As soon as the lady who runs the barn told me I said bring him in. The vet called and said she saw him and he is doing much better, that she took x-rays and will call me once they are developed. So without x-rays, she is saying to put him out, not on a lead rope but by himself in a large arena beside the rest of the horses. She hasn't called me and it is 9:40 p.m. probably because she is furious I asked her mentor for a 2nd opinion. I used him when I boarded closer to his office and he has been practicing for many years. Titan is off bute and he is fine walking straight but if he turns in his stall, he has difficulty so there is still some pain I think and I don't want to risk making him worse. So he stays in his stall until I know what the x-rays say and the x-rays are positive and he is not lame or in pain. It's hard to argue with your vet who is telling you what to do - since I am not a vet so am assumed to know nothing. What an unpleasant experience. I feel so sorry for Titan but it is good he has improved a lot. I saw him this afternoon and he wanted to go out but I didn't let him.
Member:
erika

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 8:50 am:

Janice, I've been in your shoes, with conflicting advice. It sure is hard to know what the right thing to do is, isn't it?
Try not to be angry with either vet, though. Like us, they are human and deal with life's cr*p. You don't know what was happening in her world when you called Sunday. I think it boils down to the fact that most vets love horses and want the best for them (even in a conflict with owners).
It sounds like you caught the laminitis early, and hopefully your horse will improve quickly.
This is a road I've been down a few times and there is a pretty big difference between treatments even within the practice I use. One vet will pretty much say "stall and bute", another comes with mineral oil drenches, I.V. DMSO, ace, and pads. The third is somewhere between the two. Regardless of which one treated, my horse has returned to soundness (until this pesky Lyme thing, anyway!).
Your horse will most likely be fine, but I vote for you taking the advice of whichever vet you feel most comfortable with, then stick with it. Don't be tempted to pick and choose or you might tick off both of them! There are so many causes of laminitis, too. Don't beat yourself up over the fact that your horse has it. It is a tough puzzle sometimes, but perhaps you'll figure out the trigger. Good luck.
Erika
Member:
sryder11

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 11:57 am:

the difficulty turning is definitely a sign of lameness, my horse was like this with laminitis even when he seemed to walk sound. It is normal to get a second opinion or even more opinions with laminitis. Bute is also usually indicated even if he appears better, it will keep the inflammation down. Try not to worry so much what others think or say, you are doing what's best for Titan and you must stick to this. Even if his Xrays show no or minimal rotation he will probably need to be rested just until the inflammation subsides, in mild cases this might still be a matter of weeks.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 1:00 pm:

Thanks Susanne. I just talked to my vet. The x-rays show no rotation and no DrOpping, just thin soles even though they are hard right now. She wants him hand walked for 15 minutes to an hour or turned out in the ring twice a day. She does not want him turning small circles in his stall. She said his case of laminitis was very mild. She said laminitis is sort of a speciality with her and she has treated lots of cases. She is OK with my prior vet coming out and is couriering the x-rays to him. I told her I know she respects him and his opinion so she was fine with that. I was hoping to change to barefoot but she said no because of his thin soles and wants his shoes put back on now.

I don't know what to think. He probably is walking in his stall and keeps turning which isn't good. But I don't want to harm him. I expect she thinks if he gets out even for 15 minutes he won't be so restless in his stall and walking in small circles.

He is to be on 1 gram of bute for another 20 days. She said the cause of his laminitis is uncertain as he is not grossly overweight.

My prior vet may feel it is unnecessary to come out once he sees the x-rays. I would rather he come out and see Titan. The appt. is next Wednesday.

She never apologized for being rude on Sun. She said she is a sole practitioner with a family and has to carefully decide whether she needs to go out and from what was described it did not sound like an emergency. She says she knows what the internet says - obviously doesn't agree.

I'm uneasy with treating any laminitis as a non-emergency.

Comments?
Member:
erika

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 1:58 pm:

Janice, it sounds like you've made some headway. I'm glad to hear that there is minimal rotation. Does your horse have pads or foam blocks taped to his feet? They can make them remarkably more comfortable.

Walking does help the circulation in the feet, especially with foot support from pads, etc. But I have never been told to make the horse move until he is comfortable without pain meds. The acute stage has to be stopped and healing begun to avoid further damage. But I am going on my own experience here and am no vet.

Was there any talk of using Acepromazine? My vet explained to me that not only does it keep the horse calm so they don't pace around, but it helps keep the circulation going in order to promote healing.

At least you are able to have a civil conversation at this point. Not to defend your vet's attitude, but I was stressed to the point of meltdown this weekend and I would have bitten anyone's head off who challenged me!. No excuse--she is a professional, but she's also human.

Keep us informed how the recovery goes, will you?
Erika
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 11:27 pm:

Thanks Erika. I phoned my vet and left a voicemail about acepromazine (I use it for my cat who gets carsick). When I talked to her today she said the x-rays showed no rotation and no sinking whatsoever. I think I picked the right vet to give a second opinion since she told me before that he is the vet she goes to when she needs an answer to questions. I don't know what my prior vet will say. I am not putting Titan in the big ring for an hour twice a day because he will be on bute, thinks he is fine and if the other horses start running, he could also start running and (I may be wrong) I just can't imagine that being beneficial and I could see it causing more damage. I also could see my horse playing with other horses over the fence and rearing and coming down hard on his front feet. I didn't tell my vet but I am keeping him in his stall until my prior vet arrives next Wed. and examines him. I am actually doing what Dr. O said. I do hope the prior vet comes out and doesn't simply say he doesn't need to because it is hard to evaluate a horse you have not seen. When I go out tomorrow I might (not sure yet) handwalk him in the ring briefly so he has a bit of movement but that is contrary to what I keep reading and what people have said on this forum.

He does have rubbery stuff that comes out of a tube and turns into rubber on his feet so that would make him more comfortable. It looks like a pad except it conforms to his feet.

I don't know if I said before but I said to my vet "so his case is a case of mild laminitis?" and she said "very" mild.

She also said that she has made laminitis somewhat of a speciality for herself.

But it is confusing getting contrary advice.

I also would like my prior vet's opinion on whether my horse can go without shoes. If his soles are thin but hard and his walls are thick, I would think as he heals, he would be more comfortable barefoot - but I don't know enough about this. My farrier has been aiming towards getting him going barefoot (and it is following her advice that made is soft soles hard and his walls become amazingly thick in about 4 shoeings done about 5 weeks apart)but I don't know if the hard but thin soles make the farrier feel it is too soon.

I expect I will be going with the advice of my prior vet who probably has 25 or more years experience. My vet looks in her 30s.

What bothered me about what happened on Sunday besides her rudeness was diagnosing over the phone that his laminitis was not serious based on what a layperson told her with no examination. I am uncomfortable with that because I know there are so many degrees of seriousness of laminitis and a layperson's description might not be what the vet sees if she examines the horse.

I had to see a rheumatologist today and was exhausted afterwards so didn't go out to see Titan but called the lady who looks after him and she said he was fine. She said my vet called her about the hay analysis and said the sugar was low but the protein was high which could put on weight. However, the lady who looks after Titan is giving him half of what she gave him before and has to give him a handful of grain to get his supplements down him.

I did fax my prior vet to give him directions to where Titan is boarded and told him I was not putting him in the ring because I was concerned he could injure his feet further if he was running around. I also told him I had not told my vet I was keeping him in his stall. He is back tomorrow and supposed to come out next Wed. I expect if he feels after viewing my vet's x-rays that it is safe to put him in the ring twice a day for an hour when he is on bute and doesn't feel the pain, I will almost feel compelled to do it. I could live with him saying to handwalk him a couple of times around the ring once or twice a day. I'm sure he will call me if he feels he should not be kept in his stall when he comes back tomorrow. I have to go to physio tomorrow so probably will be out if he calls, knowing my luck.

I have found this experience so confusing and upsetting. I feel trapped when my vet says one thing and the consensus seems to be something different and I am not qualified to choose. All I want to do is the right thing for Titan.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 12:05 am:

Janice: I'm sorry this happened to you, but many of us have been in your shoes just trying to get treatment on a Sunday or a holiday. Yes, of course vets have their own lives, but their choice of profession dictates a certain obligation to their clients. My niece is an equine vet in Mass. and never hesitates to make a call on a weekend or holiday or when she is a covering vet. There have been many times when I've been on a visit to her house when I've gone on a call with her just so that we get some time to spend together on our visit. Yes, she has a family, but her practice comes first. Her family understands this. Sure, some of her clients make her crazy....but life is like that. She swallows her frustration and does her job. It is the job she chose.

Possible laminitis is not a minor annoyance. The faster it is caught and aggressively treated, the better the outcome. You are advocating for your horse, and doing the best you can. It sounds like you are moving ahead, but I do agree with Erika, and having had a horse with possible laminitis, styrofoam pads duct taped to the feet and quiet stall rest is important. If your Titan is lungeing around in his stall, perhaps his feet don't hurt that much and maybe it isn't laminitis....which is a good thing.

At any rate, your horse is the most important thing, and you're working hard on managing your vets. It looks like, right now, it might just work out - because you're pressing carefully and courteously.

Watch Titan's weight, it's so important.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 12:33 am:

Thanks Lee. Your niece sounds like a wonderful vet with a great attitude. Her clients must love her.

I hadn't heard of styrofoam put on the horse's feet on Sunday or I would have mentioned it. But it was my farrier who came up with the idea of using the liquid substance that hardens into rubber on the bottom of his feet to make him more comfortable (she has been an excellent advocate for my horse). He did seem more comfortable with the rubber on the bottom of his feet. I might take him for a walk in the ring. It may settle him down a bit. I just want to make sure I do the right thing and that's hard when you don't know what the right thing is. He has a grazing muzzle now so when he does get turned out with the other horses he will be able to get just about none of the little grass that is left in about 1/4 of the field. He's on half the amount of hay and only a tiny bit of grain to put his supplements in because they are important - vitamins, hoof supplement - as his feet are healing. He is such a wonderful horse. A 2-year old rode him. There are cannons going off like loud gunshots in the field behind the ring and I've ridden Titan when one has gone off near the ring and he didn't even flinch. I have difficulty getting on an off him. The hip resurfacing I had on both hips was successful but the falls I have had since the first fall on my face on concrete last November resulted in me being in bed a lot - plus I was hospitalized for e.coli blood poisoning at Christmas. My legs are weak and very sore but Titan stands like a statue almost all the time when I get on and off him. With little kids riding him you can tell he is being extra careful not to take a wrong step that will unseat them. I adore him and hate to see him hurting.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 7:39 am:

Janice,

I feel your frustration. Our local large animal vet, the only one within 75 miles, doesn't own any equipment; so x-rays and ultrasounds are not possible. Her pat diagnosis for lameness is "must be a stone bruise, that'll be $$$" Getting ahold of her any day of the week is hit and miss, and her personal problems interfere with her professional life. Knowledge is indeed power!

My 5 cents worth here is keep him comfy with the bute, keep checking hooves for warmth, go with your gut. I also am in favor of keeping him barefoot as the most recent & current evidence points to low heels, frequent trims, NO shoes.

We had a pony for a couple of years when our daughter was young. She was prone to laminitis; got mild cases all year long. I would know when she had some "heat" as she would stand in the deepest snow she could find, or biggest mud puddle. Surprisingly, she had to be monitered more in the winter when eating hay than in the summer when she was allowed to graze a few hours a day.

I wish I had known then, what I know now about diet, movement, trimming; but this was BHA...Before Horse Advice dot com!

Read the links posted above and study up on barefoot trimming, the importance of movement, and the ideas of the barefoot trimming community on laminitis. Be sure to read the success stories! Very, very severe cases that get turned around 100%.

He'll be fine; just give it time.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 8:03 am:

I am not against barefoot, but I too am trying to manage a horse with thin soles. It took a few shoeings with equi-pak to get him comfortable enough to be barefoot, and that is still touch and go. If the horse has thin soles that can contribute to ongoing soreness and CB inflammation, which in turn COULD lead to laminitis and Pedal Osteitis. Sometimes those thin soles need protection, at least to give them a chance to reduce inflammation and thicken.

I know Hank would be more comfortable in the equithane with a wide web shoe and if I was doing any type of riding on hard ground he'd have them....if I had a farrier
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 5:26 pm:

Thanks Angie and Diane. I guess it gets back to the old barefoot vs. shod controversy.

I got a call from my old vet's office saying he refused to go out that far. I used to board not too far from where I am now and I and the lady who lived there both used this vet and he always came out when needed. Plus he goes to another barn I boarded at a couple of years ago and sees one horse there. So I don't understand why he won't come out. I think he is the only vet whose opinion my vet will respect.

This has been the most frustrating experience. It is difficult not to feel that you rate pretty low in the vets' eyes over their other clients. It makes me sound paranoid but I've had some pretty discouraging experiences with vets lately. It's hard to deal with on top of only really caring that Titan gets better.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 5:47 pm:

It's really interesting these days with vets. I get told all the time to bring the horse to the vet. I don't own a trailer, or a sound enough truck to pull one, if I did own one. When I hear that, I always wonder if the cattle, sheep and llamas are going to get hauled in also for treatment?

The vet I must stay on the good side with, almost got us in a legal battle over things she said to another client! NOT very professional! So I feel your pain and frustration. I'd follow the advice that DrO has on here, and pray a lot.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 6:16 pm:

Well, Angie, at least Titan's x-rays showed no rotation or sinking and my vet said when I asked if he had a "mid" case of laminitis and she said "very" mild. He appears sound so it looks like he is on the road to recovery. I left a voicemail for my vet asking about acepromazine which I think Diane??? (not sure) suggested and my vet never returned my call.

It used to be that a lot of farriers gave bad customer service - not returning phone calls, not showing up without advising that they weren't coming. I remember going out to the barn after a huge snowfall when the roads were dangerous because I wanted to be there when the vet showed up. I suppose I should have assumed he wouldn't come, but he could have called because I risked my life to get to the barn. One time when he didn't show up, he went on vacation and never told me so I expected him to be there at the previously arranged time and he was off somewhere on vacation. It seems that vets are starting to get the bad attitude some farriers have.

At least my current farrier is dependable and cares. Before she took me on as a client, she asked me to send her photos of my horses feet, which I did and then sent me a huge analysis that must have taken her a couple of hours to do - and didn't charge me a cent.


Janice
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 8:41 pm:

Janice I don't like to think of it as a shoe VS barefoot controversy. On the contrary I have 3 horses that are barefoot, but believe shoes can definitly help some situations immensly. I don't see why it has to be a controversy really, each situation is different, and every horse is an individual. I think barefoot is great if it is possible.

Glad Titan is on the mend. Remember rotation doesn't always show up on x-rays immediately, so if he remains tender it probably wouldn't hurt to have some done down the road
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 2:38 am:

Thanks Diane. I think my vet mentioned that there can be rotation in a few weeks so she usually waits to do x-rays. I would rather do 2 sets - one right away and one later on. When she said that rotation can happen later on I said "but they don't improve in the meantime" and she said "yes". Titan is improving every day but I will still get x-rays done in a few weeks as that can help his rehabilitation although my vet thinks it is fine to put him in a big ring by about 7 other horses in the field the 2nd or 3rd day which I am not comfortable with. I have been handwalking him briefly once a day. Today I had a bad fall on concrete outside the barn when I was trying to lead Titan with his muzzle on to the ring. All I recall is my glasses flying through the air. I landed on the knee that was already very sore and swollen from an adverse reaction to latest anti-depressant my doctor was trying on me. I was worried about my hips that had been resurfaced so wiggled and they seemed OK. I couldn't get up because I am too weak. I didn't want to DrOp the lead rope as I didn't want Titan taking off to be with the other horses. I told him to stay as I tried and tried to get up. Strange thing - he seemed to be circling around me. I wondered if he was protecting me in case one of the other horses came over. Anyway, I was bleeding and hurt like hell. I think my glasses are ruined. I couldn't see but when I finally got up, I hobbled with him back to his stall and he got upset and started kicking. He may have been kicking the cement wall. The lady who lives there got him and took him for a short walk in the ring that settled him down. I wish my vet returned my call about acepromizine (spelling may be wrong) as it could calm him down - but not surprisingly she hasn't returned my call and answered my query - which isn't that unusual with her. Not sure if I mentioned that my prior vet refused to come out even though the distance is about the same as it was to 2 places I boarded at before - he was my vet at one place and there is a lady at the other place and he has gone there often. So it sounds like an excuse. I said I'd pay the $92 call fee - I said I'd even pay $100 if he would come out. He is supposed to call me when my vet gets the x-rays to him. As of earlier today, they hadn't arrived so I don't know if she hadn't sent them yet or what. My opinion of vets around here is not that great right not. My prior vet's secretary said, even though I had booked an appt. for next week, that I'd have to wait 1-3 months for an appointment! That sounds ridiculous. I was a good client of his - he never had a problem with me paying.

What an ordeal this has been. At least, Titan seems to be improving.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 3:20 am:

Diane - when I referred to the controversy about shoes v. barefoot, I've found that some people and farriers are very passionate about one being better than the other. My farrier says some horses are good barefoot, others need shoes - it depends on the horse. But I've found that some people are very polarized in their views that one is better than the other instead of looking at each horse as an individual and doing what that horse needs.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 3:44 am:

I am reading from one of my vet books. It says "Acute founder is a medical emergency. Notify your veterinarian immediately. Do not wait for signs to develop." Later on it says "Exercise contributes to coffin bone rotation and should be avoided." Later on the book mentions the beneficial effects of Bute given in combination with Acepromazine in that it has been shown to reduce capillary constriction and hypertension." So why did my vet feel it was not an emergency, why did she recommend that he be put out in the ring and why hasn't she given him Acepromazine or at least returned my phone call asking her about it?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 6:16 am:

I think that's why we join Horse Advice, at one time or another we were unhappy with or vet or didn't get enough information that we understand.

I have a very good relationship with my vet and he is very good about returning my calls or coming when I ask. There are times though that he is busy or has something more pressing than my problems.

He has a family and a life. he is a young fella. So on weekends my horse would have to be VERY bad for me to call him.
That's why I have tried to educate myself here, so I can handle non-life threatening emergencies.

A vet should see a horse for acute founder, but there are steps a person can take until the vet is able to arrive. They are all in here.

Styrofoam blocks...bute or banamine....soft bedding in a stall....stay quiet....cut the carbs That's about all a vet could do...at first.

Different vets will have different protocols so it's up to us to figure out what works, just like shoes and barefoot every horse is different, and depending on the severity of the founder different treatments come into affect. Turnout on soft footing when the horse seems comfortable OFF pain meds MAY be fine. Ace isn't necesary for all of them, it has never been in my vets founder protocol....he swears by banamine over bute for acute cases. So it's up to us to figure out what's best for our individual horse along with the vets advice.

Sorry about your injury, you are having a rough week.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 10:16 am:

Janice,

A thought occured to me reading about your fall: some people are not comfortable around other folks who are ill, or having physical disabilities. Cruel, thoughtless, and totally unfair of course! So I was wondering, do you normally have help when a vet is there? Can you guarantee someone else will be there when the vet comes?

Some vets are more compassionate concerning animals than they are people.

Take care.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 4:39 pm:

Hi, Janice. I've been reading your posts, and wanted to add my own 2 cents.
First, it sounds like you've had a hell of a week, with your own physical catastrophes, and trying to care for a horse that you very obviously love. You've gotten so much good advice here, but I thought my own quick story might be comforting.
I was given my horse Buck four years ago, because he had foundered. His previous owner, trying to convince me to take him, rode him with a switch, forcing this lame horse to trot. I took him, because I didn't know what else to do.
He lay in his stall for three days. My farrier urged me to get radiographs, and I did, and he had 18 percent rotation. BUT, two years later, with wedge shoes and God knows what else, mainly farrier care, he is FINE. He runs, and loves being ridden. He has other related issues, mainly diarrhea off and on...but I am learning how to manage that.
My ultimate point is that I think that really good farrier care is more important than vet care, when it comes to founder. If you have both, then that's great. I do, and thank my stars. But if you only have an excellent farrier, I would put all my eggs in that bucket.
Best of luck to you, and to Titan. I bet he'll be just fine, since he hasn't even rotated at all. Buck, again, had rotated 18 percent, and is now undoing it, with good front shoes.
Yours...........
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 6:17 pm:

Thanks Diane. I agree with you. My horse was in a LOT of pain. He couldn't move unless dragged but he had to get into the barn onto soft footing. So there was nothing mild about it. He had the typical founder stance with his front legs out in front of him. Poor Titan was in a very bad way. He had pounding pulses in his front feet.

I understand vets need lives too. I would absolutely have used the vet on call except that happened to be my vet.

I am going to have a huge vet bill especially if I can convince my prior vet to come out. I have heard nothing from him except the woman at his office saying they didn't have the x-rays yet my vet took and my prior vet refused to come out and I'd have to wait 1 to 3 months for an appointment. I don't think he realizes the distance is not much different from when he was my vet in the same area at 2 other barns. He still goes to one of those barns. I've faxed him indicating this.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 6:33 pm:

Thank you Winifred - I needed that. It's a very encouraging story. I do have an excellent farrier who really cares.

Thank you Angie - yes, the lady who lives there is always around when the vet is there. She is invaluable because she is the one who usually discovers an injury or illness because she is around there 24 hours a day. Most of the time, to look at me, no one would think I was in a lot of pain except if it caused me to limp which it normally doesn't. Pain is pretty invisible.

I would never expect my vet to come out with no one there. That would be very irresponsible on my part. Titan is a dream horse except for one thing. If my wonderful farrier is there by herself, he can be a jerk. He is improving and there may be a reason for that as I don't know how farriers treated him in the past. My farrier is probably in her 40s and she will only do his feet if there is someone beside him while she works on his feet because she isn't really young and if she gets hurt, it will take longer for her to heal and it is her livelihood. So I am almost always the one there or if I am sick and just cannot make it, I have the lady who runs the barn stay with Titan while his feet are done or another boarder I trust. If no one else was available, I would change the appointment or just have her do my 25-year-old thoroughbred who almost falls asleep when he is done. I would leave the decision up to the farrier and if she wanted to change the appointment so she could do both at once, I would happily do that.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 7:21 pm:

I just read an email from my vet. She wants Titan out in the ring for 2-3 hours a day handwalking or loose with a muzzle on. I don't know what to think. I sure can't hobble around for 2-3 hours after my fall - actually I was limping before the fall because of fluid in my knees and feet from a reaction to the anti-depressant. I don't think anyone could walk around for 2-3 hours with a horse on a lead rope. My farrier is coming out on Wed.(the day my prior vet was supposed to come out but probably won't) so I am waiting for her to assess him first. My vet said she would do x-rays again in a few weeks. If I end up following her advice and there is rotation in a few weeks, I will be very upset.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 10:54 am:

From Dr. O's article on founder:

Stall Rest
In the old days forced hand walking was the consistent recommendation. It was reasoned that the walking stimulated circulation in the congested laminae. It is now believed that the walking results in increased damage to the laminae for the stresses created by movement. The stall should be bedded in a very soft bedding that conforms to the bottom of the foot, anything from thick shavings to sand has been used. The idea is the bedding supports the sole and the coffin bone and horses can arrange themselves in the most comfortable position, often with their feet dug in so that the heels are elevated. The horse should remain stalled until rotation quits and the pain is gone when completely off all medication. Time out should slowly be increased and is also dependent on other factors. Often turning back out on pasture is not indicated do to obesity or exposure to lush grasses.

Good luck, I know it's hard to go against a vet's recommendation. But in this case, I believe I would.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 2:58 pm:

Janice, I am a very new horse owner, still learning, so I can't give any help re: laminitis.

However, I do have one suggestion that has helped me over the years in dealing with difficult relationships that have to be maintained for one reason or another, like with you and your vet.

Someone once told me that the best thing to do is...apologize! When I balked, they said: DON'T say "I was wrong" (if you don't think so), don't get into issues, or anything like that. Just saying, "I'm sorry you were upset, angry, etc." can have a remarkable impact. The other person just seems to assume that you are apologizing for whatever offended them. And generally, you can genuinely BE sorry that they were upset or angry, because that makes them so much harder to deal with...so actually, you are still telling the truth.

I know this sounds like just semantics, but you might want to try it. I can think of a few occasions where it has helped me smooth over really rough spots with people I had to keep dealing with.

Kathy
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 4:57 pm:

Hi Kathy. Good idea. I just did it by email as I can't get hold of her except for voicemail and her assistant could pick it up and it wouldn't have the same effect. I said I was sorry if she was upset and that I didn't intend to upset her. I said I was just worried about Titan as I have absolutely no experience with laminitis.

So thanks!

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 5:18 pm:

Regarding my comment that my farrier said she could feel the coffin bone, I misunderstood. I just talked to her and she said that she could feel that the sole had DrOpped a bit on one foot which was a bit of a concern. My vet agreed with her. So it wasn't the coffin bone, it was his sole. I asked my farrier if it was something she could make better and she said yes, she could so I will try not to worry (which is really hard for me). My vet wants Titan either put in the ring for 3-4 hours a day with his muzzle or handwalked. Since my fall, I'm in no position probably even to lead him, let alone walk him around the ring for 2-3 hours since my fall and I don't want to ask the lady who runs the barn to do that. But when I just talked to my farrier, she said she agrees with putting him out in the ring but with my 25-year-old horse, Abe, who, although he plays, it is not usually with Titan and he has a calming effect on Titan. Abe has to come into the barn when Titan gets his feet done to give him moral support. So I thought that was a really good idea.

My farrier is coming out on Wednesday on her way to Kamloops. Even though my vet said to me to have the heartbar shoes put back on Titan, my farrier said she will assess him and then decide. I trust her judgment so will see what she thinks on Wednesday. She said every horse is an individual.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 5:34 pm:

Thanks Aileen. I read Dr. O's excellent article too. Titan wants to walk. It is more than "want" - he acts like he can't wait to get out of the stall and walk. He is just on 1 gram of Bute a day. I don't know what the pain effect of 1 gram is but I wouldn't think it would be too great. The x-rays showed no rotation or sinking but apparently his sole is DrOpped a bit in one foot which my farrier said she could make better when I asked her. My farrier stressed that each horse is an individual and she agreed with putting my horse out in the ring but with my 25-year-old thoroughbred, Abe, who babysits him when Titan gets his feet done - so has a calming effect on Titan. My farrier is coming on Wednesday to assess Titan and, even though my vet said to put his heartbar shoes back on, my farrier said she will assess him on Wednesday and then decide. He does have the support of the rubbery stuff that she put on him last Sunday. Titan walks fine on the concrete in the barn and is fine if walked around the ring on a leaDrOpe. He's not lame. I trust my farrier. Titan will have his muzzle on, which he hates, so he cannot eat any of the grass that has grown in the ring. It is so hard with so many opinions from so many people - vets, farriers, knowledgeable laypeople. I do trust my farrier because she treats each horse individually. She really helped Abe's feet which were a mess when I switched farriers. He's 25 and still mounting the mares even though he's a gelding. My vet even says he looks the best he ever has. Before I got this farrier and Abe had had a number of shoeings by her, he was walking like an old man and that was about 3 years ago. Now he has a shiny coat and moves well. So I am going along with my farrier's recommendation. She said she doesn't want him running around - which is why she thought putting Abe with him would be a good idea. She said to keep an eye on Titan to make sure he stays calm.

What an experience I could have done without!
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Thursday, Jul 24, 2008 - 11:28 pm:

Kathy - as I indicated before, I emailed my vet and apologized. She emailed me back and made no reference whatsoever about the apology. Nice.

My prior vet refused to give me a second opinion by seeing Titan and refused to review the x-rays which I think he got on Monday. I found this out as second hand information from my farrier which I think she got from my vet. So he didn't even have the decency to call me. It would have taken him no time to give me a call and discuss the x-rays. He simply did not want to disagree with my vet. Interestingly, she came out on a day I was unaware of and retook at least one x-ray so I assume my prior vet told her to. But what justification does he have for not phoning me and discussing the x-rays? And he didn't even have the guts to phone me and say why he would not give a 2nd opinion. His office staff was rude to me. It would have been about a 45 minute drive for him. His office staff said it was too far and it was "show season". And I was told, well actually ordered to do what my vet said, by a non-vet.

I hope, as it would be highly unprofessional, that the vets in this area have not agreed to refuse to give 2nd opinions on the opinion of any other vet in the area. That is a very frightening thought.

I am really appalled by the rudeness, lack of courtesy, lack of professionalism (all of the vets out here have families, my on-call vet said, so she has to pick and choose what calls she goes on - she wasn't on a call at the time - probably because she refused to go anywhere if someone else had called her).

My farrier suggested when she saw Titan as she was on her way out of town on Wed., to reduce his Bute from 1 gram a day to 1/2 gram a day. She said she needs to know how he is when he is not on painkillers. Hopefully my vet will not be angry about that. My farrier felt for any pulses in his feet and watched him walk and thoroughly examined his feet. My farrier is still out of town but I talked to her on her cell phone today. She mentioned that she ran something by a vet she knows (which further increased my respect for her - she doesn't just do what she thinks - she verifies it with a vet). Although my vet said to put his shoes back on, my farrier didn't - he has (I found the advertisement) Sole-Guard on his front feet (he only had front shoes on) and she added some to the area where his sole is slightly sunken. She said it will either improve or she will put shoes on him. She is very individualized with her treatment of horses. She had previously taken photos of Titan's feet and told me his feet have improved greatly. The lady who runs the barn said he was fine on 1/2 gram of bute. My 25-year-old thoroughbred is with him in the ring "babysitting" him. Titan has his muzzle on and Abe (who is a hard keeper) is thrilled to have grass to munch on. Because the footing is soft in the ring, my farrier felt that 3 hours would be OK for him to be in the ring.

My farrier said she would stop on her way back from being out of town at my vet's office to view the x-rays. She said she would like further x-rays taken in a while so she could compare them to the earlier x-rays.

She told me she disagreed with my vet's evaluation of Titan's feet when my vet did the vet check before I bought him - my vet said only he had flat feet (which he no longer has thanks to my farrier). My farrier said he has thoroughbred feet which aren't the best.

My vet said she feels she has developed expertise in the area of laminitis. So far, I have not been pleased with her advice, or a lot of it.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 12:21 am:

How is Titan doing now? A few days ago it sounded like he was improving? Is he continuing to improve? I hope so.
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 12:40 am:

I'm going to jump back in here, i haven't read a bunch of the posts just these last 4 or 5. I think Janice i was alot like you when i first got into horses. I relied on the vets, i relied on the farriers, i relied on everyone that had an opinion. But the person that knows the horse best? is you. And when you find that you have people giving you conflicting information? You must be the one to determine the best treatment for the horse.

Stop focusing on the he said/she said. that is just being counterproductive. You love the farrier. you don't like your vet. any possibility that you can switch to another? I love that you are reading up on it. Because ultimately all this stuff outside the focus of the feet will subside the more you take back control of what YOU want everyone to do to help you help the horse.

I'd hate to see the next post on here how the vet and the farrier are at total odds etc... I get the impression that will be next... then what? Pick your professional at this point and stick with them. If your farrier has a handle on it? is an expert on founder has the references to back it up then stop asking the vet her opinions. and try to find another vet. Probably the vet in question will be more than happy to monitor from a distance, considering she is so busy etc.

If you truly want a second opinion go get one. Are there any vets other than the two you have?
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 9:30 am:

Hi Janice, I like what Jojo says here. Sometimes a little distance can give one better perspective.
As I see it, the situation is as follows:
All of your professionals agree that Titan has a very mild case and likely to recover.
You have a farrier who is experienced and you like, who is giving you good advice.

Most likely your second opinion vet is giving you a second opinion by NOT coming out. My bet is that he/she has spoken to the one who took the x-rays and they are in agreement that another visit would not be productive.
If your current vet came out again to take more x-rays, I would tend to believe that she is taking the situation seriously and would alert you if things were deteriorating.
It sounds like you have gotten worked up about some personality issues--can't blame you, nobody wants to watch their horse in pain!--but these issues and your emotions are probably not conducive to good communication.
Here in the States we have a shortage of horse vets. Although professionals, they are humans first. They are subject to the same emotions as the rest of us. If their dance card is full, they are more likely to have time for the "easy" clients than the ones who make their dislike obvious.
You are frustrated, for sure. I guess I am trying to say you may not be aware that your frustration is coming across as hostility. You want your vet as an ally so you need to treat her as such. Try to give up the past to the Universe, or God, or whatever allows you to let go. Concentrate on doing what YOU think is right for Titan. He will recover.
Again, he will recover. But this most likely won't be the last medical situation he will face in his life. You need to have a vet you can call on and if your relationship gets any worse I would think you are only jeopardizing your own chances of getting future help.
It is entirely possible that Titan is similar to my mare (Diane E can relate, too, with Hank) who reacts very severely to mild founder. Some horses are more stoic than others. Give Titan some time. He'll get better.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 2:08 pm:

I am very civil and curteous to the only large animal vet in the immediate area. She's made some mistakes but so does everyone. And she has so much area to cover and is only one person.

The first time we met, she came out on her husband's birthday for my mare who was colicking. In January on horrible roads I might add. So it all evens out I figure.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 4:05 pm:

I can't add anything more to what Erika said except that Europe[especially France] has to much vets and I still get in trouble from time to time with one or the other. I did learn over the years to swallow, remember my horses might need them again and they will get here sooner if they think they like me.And THEN grab my computer and wail and holler at HA until enough persons have reacted to make me calm down.
I know it isn't fair or very honest but for my horses sake I play the game. Feel free to vent to me if you need it.
Jos
PS And ALWAYS check everything everyone wants to touch on your horse at HA
PPS Perhaps I am lucky but I met for the most part very nice good and professional vets
Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 5:00 pm:

This is totally off the subject maybe, but I was wondering about my post on this subject: is it 18 percent or 18 degrees that Buck had rotated? Sorry if this is irrelevant, I was just wondering. I'm pretty new to this business.

It was 18 something, and is now 16.

Best of luck again to Titan, Janice.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 7:01 pm:

Well, that was SO off the subject, and I'm sorry for that.

But could someone clue me in real quick, does the 18 mean percent or degrees?

Thanks.....
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 7:08 pm:

18 degrees, Winifred. It is a measurement of the angle of the front of the coffin bone as compared to the angle of the hoof. You want the two to be as close to parallel as possible, which would be Zero to 5% in a normal hoof, I'm told.
(I'll bet there's more on this in Doctor O's articles.)
Member:
winifred

Posted on Saturday, Jul 26, 2008 - 9:54 am:

Thank you, Erica!
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 26, 2008 - 3:35 pm:

Hi Sara - asking how he is doing is much appreciated. It's morale support I need.

Titan seems to be regularly improving. The only problem he has which is of some concern is that his sole is DrOpped and has been since day 1. My farrier saw him on her way to Kamloops - about at least a 5-hour drive to Kamloops but I think she has clients all over along with many clients in this area. She did a full assessment of Titan. As I recall she said 13 (cm or mm-I am not sure which) was the cut-off point for the amount of DrOpping of the sole - it if is above 13 (cm or mm) the prognosis is guarded, if it is below, the prognosis is good. Since Titan is below. If the sole remains DrOpped, she will then put shoes on him but for now (contrary to the vet's advice) she said to reduce his bute to 1/2 gram a day for this week (he is fine on 1/2 gram), twice a week for next week and none the following week. She wants to assess him without drugs. She did not put shoes on him as the vet said because now he is fine with his muzzle on in the large soft ring with my 25-year-old thoroughbred "babysitter" with only the Sole-Guard on his feet - which is like a rubber pad but moulds to the feet (and sticks so far really well) - she put more on the area where his sole hae DrOpped. He has lost weight. Her ost common expression is that every horse is individuals - some need shoes - some don't. If it looks like he can go barefoot on soft surfaces like the ring, she will purchase the correct "easyboots" for him to wear, which I thought was nice as she is so busy.

In a subsequent conversation with my vet, she started second guessing herself about the role of being overweight, as he was not "grossly" overweight. If you looked at a photo, you may say he was slghly overweight or notice nothing. So my vet does not know why he got laminitis.

My farrier is easy to reach in Kamloops by cell phone (in the past I noted that she had a backup when she was away who was very nice).

I called my vet because my horse's caretaker wanted to know how long she gives Titan 1/2 gram of bute - so it's 2 times a week next week then none. (when my farrier is uncertain sha asks a vet, clearly it wasn't my vet.)

So thank you Sara [your morale support is most helpful and that of the other members of Horse Advice and I must not forget Dr. O. who started this wonderful website and despite being busy responds to posts - I am in awe oh his dedication - responds to the members' questions - indicates a vet whose heart is in the right place) I am tanking you because it appreciated more than you know unless you or someone else went through a similar experience. I wonder how many horses Dr. O has saved through his competent and timely advice and articles.

I will go and see my horses today - Titan and his babysitter, Abe.

I am quite amazed with Titan when I fell outside the barn and couldn't get up from weakness and couldn't keep hold of the leaDrOp, that not only did he not run away, he circled me as though protecting me. His instinct to stay with me overrode his insitinct to go with the herd. As I said in a previous post, he is my therapy horse, 2-year-olds can ride him. I adore him and he is a very special horse.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Jul 26, 2008 - 5:49 pm:

Hi JoJo - your advice is correct. But I have been involved in horses since 1991. I sound like a newby because I've never dealt with laminitis before. I have subscriptions to many horse magazines. One of the best is The Horse which is quite veterinary-oriented. I can tell a good horse-related article from a bad. I am not stupid (I am not suggesting that anyone here has indicated I was stupid - the people on this forum are great and courteous). Perhaps being a lawyer, I research a lot. I get the impression that vets and doctors are threatened by information a client has obtained from reputable sources - and frankly, I think they should be prepared to give a reasoned response - there could be a reason the article does not apply to my horse. But I have veterinary books that I use. I find a number of vets treat a client as though he/she was an idiot, do not know and never ask if I research of good reliable articles and forums such as this and and act like I know nothing (interestingly, my farrier gave me some websites she likes). I know as a lawyer (although I am on long-term-disability), a lot of lawyers also have the "God" complex. Even though I am a lawyer, I am still a "high school DrOpout"(DrOpped out when I turned 16 - I have grade 11). I went back as a mature student and have never graduated from high school - so I feel like the high school DrOpout I used to be. Therefore, I don't talk down to people, I respect them. That's all I ask for from a vet or anyone else (and competence). So I have not been rude at all to my vet. I try really hard to never be rude or condescending. It's tempting to respond in kind, but I don't think that gets anyone anywhere. As I lawyer I have to deal with the opinion of the lawyer they saw before - I do so but with respect.

I can tell an off-base internet article from a good one.

Some lawyers, vets, human doctors, etc. react badly to a client who has a question showing they know something as they feel that their "God" complex is being challenged. which it is not. They should be pleased to have an educated client. We should all be working as a team, vet, farrier, client and anyone else involved with the same goal in mind - the welfare of the horse. There is no place for ego, "God complexes" of "I know it all". We all are learners and can always learn from each other. The best vets are those who continue learning and continue to be curious.

I have contacted a clinic where there is a vet who has good recommendation. Something I have never done is meet a vet before I decided she/he will be my vet. The website says someone is available for emergencies 24 hours a day 365 days a year. That is good as long it is not my vet on call.

Perhaps being a lawyer, I research a lot. My vet keeps warning me about the internet. But I have veterinary books that I use. I find a number of vets treat the client as though they are completely uneducated about horses, do not do research of good articles and act like they know nothing. Although I am on long-term-disability, a lot of lawyers have the "God" complex. Even though I am a lawyer, I cannot say I am impressed with a number of them as human beings (and if the clients only knew what was really going on with their file, i.e. nothing, they would be appalled so the client, for their own good, needs to keep their lawyer aware of their existence without being annoying - just ask for an update-chances are it will come from a secretary or if lucky, a legal assistant - lawyer may not remember who you are.) I am still a "high school DrOpout". I went back as a mature student and have never graduated from high school - so I feel like the high school DrOpout I used to be. Therefore, I don't talk down to people, I respect them. That's all I ask for from a vet. And I am the first to say that I am not knowledgeable in a particular area and she/he needs to contact someone else.

One thing I can say about my farrier. Although she is totally at odds in some respects with my vet, she has the tact to make it not seem that way. My vet has a lot of respect for my farrier, and that helps. My farrier has a way of expressing opinions that don't offend. This is a great benefit.

I should say my farrier came highly reccommended by a fairly well-known massage practitioner whose opinion I trust. This farrier wanted me to email her a series of photos of my horse's feet (the 25-year-old was in so much pain standing on his sore heels - looked like an old man - should see him now!). I was out there in a flash. She analyzed those photos and I got a very long email telling me and explaining to me what she saw (and she was not condescending). It was a wealth of information and must have taken her hours - for which she did not charge me a cent - I would have been glad to pay. I respect her and I think for the right reasons. Although busy, she took me on as a client.

I do think a lot of non-professional things have gone on here. I'm really sorry it had to turn out that way but I only wanted Titan to get the best treatment.

My farrier, if she feels Titan doesn't need shoes in the ring or field) is going to purchase the best easyboots she can find for him - as I don't know what is best for him - both by brand and size and fit. I appreciate that. Although I don't know if she would accept it, I would like to show my appreciation by buying her some thing but wouldn't know where to start. Thank you can only go so far.

I have contacted another vet (at the clinic who says someone is always available) and she is to call me next week. She is recommended and apparently very nice. I specifically said to please not contact my old vet before talking to me.

I am trying to proceed methodically, and not be guided by emotion although I do give weight to my "gut reaction". I am learning as much as I can.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jul 26, 2008 - 9:43 pm:

It sounds like you are heading in the right direction, Janice. I hope Titan continues to improve, and am glad you have a good farrier you trust. IMO a good farrier is much harder to find than a good vet. Hopefully, the "new" vet you are meeting will work out for you. Finding a vet is much like finding an MD. It has to be someone knowledgeable, which most are, and also has to be someone that you feel comfortable with, that you trust, and that you can communicate easily with. You are right that there are a lot of professionals of all fields that have "god complexes." However, there are also a lot of really good men and women, tops in their fields, who don't. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect regardless of their situation (well, unless they are ax-murderers or something like that!) I wish you and Titan good luck.

btw..you are to be commended on going back to school. It's not an easy thing to do.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Jul 27, 2008 - 12:05 pm:

Janice - I just want to add my good wishes. Hope you find a good vet and I am glad you have a farrier you can trust and communicate with. Good luck for Titan and his recovery - he sounds like a very special horse!
Lilo
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Jul 27, 2008 - 5:18 pm:

Thanks Lilo. Titan seemed to fee good yesterday. My farrier will stop on her way back from Kamloops and look at my vet's x-ray. My farrier has done so much for me.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Jul 27, 2008 - 5:34 pm:

Thanks Sara. Once the new farrier's receptions found out my last farrier was who it is, she changed the "meeting" to a "telephone conversation". That makes me suspicious. I expect vets are intimidated by my current vet. I think she may have worked out of the office my potentially new vet works out of. I want a vet who says what she thinks and is not too scared to give an opinion because another vet will get angry with her.

I am a lawyer and am embarrassed about how money rules everything. Yes, lawyers have to live. I'd do some work for free except I don't earn enough and have the firm on my back to have more billable hours (I'm on long term disability now and it is nice to have a break from the stress).
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Jul 27, 2008 - 5:37 pm:

Winnifred - you may be off the topic but you will hopefully get your answer and everything will carry on as it has. Don't worry.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Saturday, Aug 16, 2008 - 7:13 pm:

Well, I finally got my second opinion from a vet who was recommended to me who practices with other vets - at the end of the appointment I asked her if she would be my vet and she said yes. She also said I wouldn't end up in the mess I was in with the other vet who at first refused to come out the day Titan had laminitis. She told me Titan was doing very well and in 2 weeks, with shoes on I could ride him lightly and in 4 weeks he can be ridden normally. She said to keep an eye on him.

My farrier has been wonderful. She did both of my horses' feet today and put the heartbars back on Titan. She trotted him down the barn and he had a beautiful trot and looked so happy to be trotting. We talked a lot about laminitis and what I found out is that Titan had rings on his feet that were missed by my ex-vet when she did the pre-purchase exam (and my ex-vet told me she likes to think she has expertise in the area of laminitis). I saw those rings but foolishly trusted my vet and thought they meant nothing. My farrier had told me before she disagreed with my ex-vet's opinion on Titan's feet before I bought him.

My farrier has been waiting for weeks for my ex-vet to email her the x-rays of Titan's feet so she has something to compare his feet with if there are future x-rays. I haven't told my ex-vet yet that she is my "ex" vet because I did not want to make it more difficult for my farrier to get the x-rays.

My farrier felt he was insulin-resistant and pointed out the vitamins and minerals important in the management of it. She said that with proper management - feed, exercise, keep his weight down (a bit below normal is better than a bit above normal) and farrier care he stands a good chance of being normal. She also told me about a feed put out the the Co-op for insulin-resistant horses that is grain-free. I looked it up on the Co-op website and think this might be it:

"New! Lifeline Equi-Care Horse Pellets


Equi-Care is a grain & molasses free diet with less than 1/2 the NSC's and sugar than traditional diets. It contains high levels of digestable "Super Fibers" providing optimal nutrition for both maintenance & performance horses. This feed contains PHN's Vitamin mineral pack and high levels of natural enzymes for improved digestive system health and live yeast culture for improved fiber digestion."

----------------------

I've left a message for the Co-op to ensure this is the right feed for Titan. Right now he gets a handful of grain only for the reason that he needs his vitamins put in something.

My farrier told me she has been talking to vets and reading up on laminitis.

I am so appreciative of the time she has taken to answer my questions. She will check with a vet to make sure she is doing the right thing. She never brushes me aside because she doesn't have time. I can phone her or email her if I have questions. She would have made a great vet.

I know that insulin-resistance was mentioned on this forum.

My farrier said to me that although I am an extreme worrier (I always have been about everything) and drive vets crazy, I take excellent care of my horses. Unlike vets, she has never been condescending. No wonder I worry when vets miss things like rings from prior laminitis episodes.

So it looks like Titan will be OK with proper management. My farrier has already left a message for my new vet to make sure they are on the same page. She said she knows my new vet and she has a nice manner but can be tough when she has to be.

If I measure Titan's weight correctly with the measuring tape it looks like he has gone down from about 1,067 lbs. to about 1,007 lbs.

What an awful few weeks this has been - but the support of this forum helped me get through it.

Janice
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 16, 2008 - 11:57 pm:

What good news about Titan! I'm sure with your proper care he will do well. One of our mares is 27 yr. old insulin resistant mare and you would swear she was only in her mid teens. We feed her just grass hay with a little soaked beet pulp and her vitamins. She gets exercised almost every day, which helps imo. I had been feeding her Eq. Senior with her vitamins, and she was doing good on it, but I've just recently read about the new feed put out by Purena, which sounds a lot like the LifeLine feed. I'm going to try and find either it or the LifeLine, as I think they sound better for the insulin resistance.

You are so lucky to have such a good farrier! And I'm glad you finally found a good vet. It's sure difficult to handle situations like yours without them.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 12:42 am:

Thanks for your optimistic and kind worries Sara. My farrier thought I got 2 kinds of the Lifeline Feeds mixed up - maybe the website was a bit mixed up because I just copied from it. I've got a call into them. I may drive out tomorrow. They have a nutritionist at Otter Co-op. Here's the link to the Otter Co-op website where I got the info:

https://www.ottercoop.com/horse.cfm

I was wondering if something like oats or alfalfa pellets might be a substitute if necessary.

My farrier thinks there are a lot of horses out there going through laminitis episodes and suffering but no one notices.

Janice
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 7:06 am:

Janice I give my IR horses alfalfa pellets, they love them. They only get 6 oz. a day. I add a little water to them and they "fluff" up makeing it seem like more..PLUS they will eat just about any medication or supplement in the mush. AND alfalfa pellets are alot cheaper than the "special IR feeds"... around here anyway.

Glad Titan is feeling better
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 9:39 am:

Janice - good news about Titan. Good luck for the future - it sounds like you are on the right track now. Lilo
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 11:43 am:

glad to hear there is a solution in place. Keep in mind that if your horse is not working it needs no grain at all. nothing. figure out another way to get the minerals in him. I would suggest joining the Equinecushings yahoo group (Dr. Kellon is the leading researcher on cushings and IR related diseases with horses). that is so instrumental in helping you keep this horse healthy and ridable.

This is a lifelong disease now. The minute i took my horse off all grain she started improving. but it took a good 2 years to feel she was back to normal. The weight is the killer. And i was killing her with kindness. Sounds cruel but no more grains. Nothing. no carrots no treats, she gets nothing anymore. Just hay. Sometimes beet pulp rinsed in the winter. and only grass hays. You can use the beet pulp for the minerals. Just try to find it with no molasses. Though i have read the amount of molasses in it is not really enough to offset the balance you are trying to achieve..

my only disagreement is i would not shoe this horse. ever again. And try to keep him barefoot. But i understand that some think that is extreme. But read up on it if you can. Once i did i was convinced this too is keeping my horse healthier than if he had shoes on. And there are lots of sites outlining this too.

Being a worrier is a good thing. And the horse is lucky to have you that way. if you weren't you wouldn't have caught this when you did.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Monday, Aug 18, 2008 - 12:44 am:

Thanks JoJo. My farrier told me about a feed made by the Co-op that has no grain or molasses in it and it is for insulin-resistant horses. I left a voicemail message for someone at the Co-op and I will also go to the Co-op tomorrow. My farrier also recommended beet pulp to mix is supplements in as the special feed without grain or molasses is apparently very expensive (and I am on long-term disability - I don't really think about money when it comes to my animals but with 4 cats and 2 horses, I have to be careful if there is an alternative that works as well). Assuming we measured Titan's weight correctly with the tape, he has gone from approximately 1,067 to 1,007 lbs. since about July 13/07 when he had the laminitis episode. I have had a hard time finding a good muzzle that he doesn't rip the bottom out of so am spending hundreds of dollars on that. But I am glad what we are doing is working for his weight.

What really annoys me is my prior vet did not notice the laminitis rings on his feet when she did the pre-purchase exam. I saw them but foolishly relied on my vet (and she thinks she is somewhat of an expert in laminitis - scary). I haven't told my ex-vet that she is my "ex" yet simply because my farrier has been waiting weeks to get my ex-vet to email her the x-rays and so far my ex-vet hasn't gotten around to it - I don't want to make thinks anymore difficult for my farrier getting the x-rays. I'm going through major health problems and haven't got it in my to start a major battle with my ex-vet.

Even though my farrier was very knowledgeable about laminitis, my farrier said she is talking to vets and reading up more on it. My farrier feels that he had prior small laminitis episodes and now she thinks that last winter when the bottom of his feet hurt and he seemed to be regressing in the progress she had made with his feet (harder feet, thicker walls and making his soles more concave) this was in fact another small laminitis episode. My ex-vet said she thought his feet were bruised by the hard frozen ground. My farrier then changed what she was doing to get his feet into better shape and what she did made a huge difference.

My farrier took photos of Titan's feet when she first started being my farrier and said the difference was drastic since then. I'm going to ask her to email them to me.

Thank goodness I have a farrier who does not listen blindly to a particular vet and uses her own sources of information (other vets and reading material), including her own judgment.

The way she became my farrier is indicative of her dedication. A lady who is well-known around here for rehabilitating horses and practices massage therapy and has an amazing history of working with horses suggested I contact this farrier as she was her farrier for about 8 years and had worked wonders on her horse's feet. So I emailed the farrier (who is now my farrier and I suspect was so busy she did not need a new client but took me on because of the request of the other lady) and she emailed me back and wanted me to email her photos of my older horse's feet (he was walking like an old man). I did that, and I got back this huge email that must have taken her hours to prepare, explaining what she saw in the photos and the different parts of his feet affected) and I wasn't charged a cent. As it turned out, my prior farrier had my poor older horse standing on his sore heels. I was there when my "new" farrier removed his shoes - what I saw were black bruises on his soles and he almost fell over when she lifted one front leg because of the pain of putting his weight on the other. Now, at the age of 25, when his front shoes are removed, his soles are white and unbruised. He prances around the field like he's years younger, mounts mares in season and plays with anyone who will play with him.

And I was warned that there were "rumours" about my current farrier!

I know there is controversy re barefoot or not. It might have been you Jojo who referred me to some websites that discussed barefoot. I think my farrier had already referred me to those ages ago and I've read them.

Titan, my quarter horse, has thin soles and I know she wants to thicken up his soles. I suspect she is aiming at barefoot for him.

Two people who potentially saved Titan's life are my farrier, who DrOve an hour on a Sunday to be there for Titan, and the lady who runs the place for immediately phoning me when she noticed Titan was in pain. My ex-vet didn't think it was serious enough to warrant her coming out when she was my 3-year vet and was on call for all vets in the area that day-her excuse for her attitude being she "has a family".

I'm not going to pressure my farrier to remove his shoes permanently at this time. She has a very balanced and not polarized view of when shoes are needed and not needed and very much believes every horse is an individual so I am trusting her judgment.

One question, if I can't get this special feed with no grain or molasses, and the owner of the boarding facility does not want to soak beet pulp as long as it should be (considering all she has done for my horses, I doubt she would refuse) what about dampening alfalfa cubes to mix with his supplements?

Dr. O - do you have any suggestions in addition to the great help I'm getting from the forum members?

Sorry for the length of this but you are all great for your concern and assistance and I wanted to update you.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Monday, Aug 18, 2008 - 1:12 am:

Thanks Diane. That's pretty much what my farrier said although she said if I couldn't get the special insulin resistant feed, beet pulp without molasses was the next best then next in line would be alfalfa cubes/pellets! Considering he is getting a handful of grain pellets with his supplements in it now, he wouldn't even notice the switchover to alfalfa pellets and probably would prefer it.

Dr. O must be amazed at the knowledge the members of this forum have.


Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Monday, Aug 18, 2008 - 5:20 am:

Thanks Lilo for your good wishes. So now it seems like it is a matter of time to see if Titan's feet don't hurt and he isn't lame. After she shod him today, my farrier trotted him down the barn and Titan was just trotting on air - you could tell he felt so good. I think the heartbars felt good - he hasn't had shoes on since July 13/07. I realize some feel he should have no shoes on now but his soles are thin and there are rather large pebbles in the area where the horses are turned out. My farrier managed to get his walls think and hard and I think his soles are hard - the only remaining thing is his soles are thin. So if she can get his soles thicker than his feet will be much better. I can't believe my ex-vet didn't notice rings on Titan's feet. I'll have to see if they are noticeable on the photos the farrier took when she first started working on him.

The farrier says he'll have to wear a muzzle all summer - I can see why because he loves to eat and balloons out and definitely has a layer of fat over him.

Janice
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 18, 2008 - 6:00 am:

Janice, Titan sounds alot like my horse hank. He has foundered twice and has very thin soles. We are to a point he can be barefoot in pasture type ground without getting sore.

I just put shoes on him to ride and he is doing VERY WELL. The weight battle is always there, but with proper management and exercise, when he is in good weight he is able to graze. You just have to figure out their "trigger points". If Hank gets over #950's he isn't allowed to graze more than an hour or so a day. If he hits 1000#'s he goes back on a VERY strict IR diet until his weight is where it should be. He NEVER gets grain or alfalfa hay, I tried beet pulp last winter, but he gained weight with that easily too!!! Alfalfa hay also packs the pounds on him easily and he foundered one winter from that.

Every horse is different, but once Titan can be exercised it would be the best thing for him.

Dr.O. has a couple good articles in here you may want to study. This one is my bible for Hank
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/9265.html

This is too!
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/18295.html

Very good info in there and if you follow it Titan will be healthier.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Monday, Aug 18, 2008 - 4:13 pm:

Thanks Diane for another one of your very helpful emails. Yes Hank and Titan sound identical. I suppose if he he losing weight quickly on a handful of regular grain pellets (to put his supplements in), he should continue to lose weight with a handful of alfalfa pellets or a small amount of alfalfa cubes. But the no grain/no molasses feed sound like the ideal feed. I think it is high fibre - my farrier says he needs high fibre - that would mean he could be a bit more and think he is consuming calories when he isn't.

What helps is my farrier said to feel the side of my hardkeeper 25-year old thoroughbred as he is perfect so when Titan feels like that and I can easily feel his ribs then I'll know he is at his target weight.

I'll read the articles you mentioned.

What is comforting is that it is a management problem and it isn't hopeless.



Janice
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