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Discussion on Hard Grazing Muzzle rips Electric Tape/Horse rips through soft muzzle
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2008 - 4:43 am:
I need help and don't know what to do. 3 weeks ago my horse, Titan, got laminitis. You may have seen my posts about my vet's advice being contrary to the standard advice.
He has done really well and my farrier felt it would be better for him to be turned out in the ring with my older horse rather than him pacing in small circles in his stall so he's been out for 3 hours a day. Today he seemed a bit sore at the beginning but after walking around a few minutes he seemed fine. He needs a grazing muzzle. The nylon combination halter and nylon grazing muzzles seemed to be tolerated by him but they are no good because he rips right through rubber that is attached to the nylon and has a small hole in the middle of it. So he wrecked 2 of the halter/muzzle combination by ripping the rubber around the hole with the rubber being attached to the nylon in the muzzle. After him wrecking 2 of those halter/muzzle combinations, all I had was a hard plastic one that could be attached to his halter but he would reach through the fence to the other side and rip the electric wire that didn't have the electricity turned on and break the clips that held it to the posts. He gets really upset with the hard muzzle on too.
I don't know what to do. I need the area around the hole to be made of nylon so he can't rip it and I need it now and I am in Abbotsford in British Columbia, Canada. I've seen no other kinds except the nylon type with rubber around the hole or the hard kind that hooks on to the halter.
What can I do? I need a different muzzle now. I don't want to have to board my 2 horses at a different place. It would have to have a paddock with no grass and be a price I can afford. I am on long term disability. Can anyone help?
Second question is how long does he have to wear the grazing muzzle for?
Thanks.
Janice
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2008 - 6:52 am:
Janice what would happen if you turned the electricity on the fence so he does not tear it up?
The purpose of the muzzle to achieve a more moderate body condition so he will have to wear it anytime his body condition is above that you desire. In time you might find that he does not need it all the time grazing but we cannot guess as this will vary from horse to horse, pasture to pasture, and even with the time of year as pasture quality changes.
DrO
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2008 - 7:28 am:
Thanks Dr. O. The lady who runs the boarding facility has never had the electricity turned on around the ring and the tape has actually been lying in the ring every since I started boarding there so I don't think it is all Titan.
Using a measuring tape he has gone from about 1,067 lbs. to 1,035 lbs. He is 15.2. He is not grossly overweight. I would not have expected him to have gotten laminitis and after her initial rudeness, when the vet phoned me she seemed perplexed as to why he was the one to get laminitis. He had just had his feet done by my farrier the day before but she did not take a lot off and his toes were not long. His hooves were hard and I could see the thickness of the walls. He had no thickness about 3 or 4 months ago so the changes in the hardness and the walls and also the concave shape of his feet were dramatic. My vet ruled out anything the farrier did as she trusts her completely. So she seemed mystified as to why he got laminitis. The thing that bothers me is that it was the day after he had his feet done and I keep wondering if it was coincidence. I was there when his feet were done. Since I started using this farrier about 3 years ago, all I've noticed is improvement in both of my horses' feet. It just seemed strange it was the day after the farrier did his feet. One of the reasons the farrier came out quickly was so that she could make sure that it was nothing she did - she is very conscientious. So no one can figure it out. If I have an avatar with my profile, that photo was taken last fall I think in Oct./07 and he does not look fat.
I've been spending hours on the internet ordering muzzles that are slightly different. They almost all seem to come from the U.K. and are expensive.
Janice
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2008 - 7:59 am:
Janice, Hank got very sore after his last trim...it sure looked like founder. I think you mentioned your horse has thin soles and I have found out the hard way those kind of hooves can be a trick to trim, no matter how good the farrier is.
A "wrong teak" can set off those pulses and heat. Hank's pulses just went away, it took a couple weeks of soft ground and bute. He also went in a dry lot....just in case.
Horses don't have to be fat to founder, though I have found most owners (including me) don't think their horses are fat until it is too late.
I can't remember where I saw it, but they make a hard plastic insert to put in grazing muzzles, for those who "eat" through the bottoms. When I have time tonight I will see if I can find it. If nothing else you could probably make your own. It just looks like a plastic dinner plate you stick in the bottom.
Can you post some pics of his hooves and body...that might help. Glad Titan feels better
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2008 - 7:38 pm:
Thanks Diane. That would be a good idea about putting something in the muzzle at the bottom but it would have to be really strong. If you can find it let me know. Almost all the muzzles I purchased were from the UK which I thought was interesting - the prices are terrible. With shipping some are $100 or more so I am doing everything possible to get him a different muzzle from the hard plastic one so he doesn't harm the electric tape. I don't want to be kicked out of this boarding place. I love it there. But there has always been electric tape (without the electricity being on) lying in the ring. I've moved it because of a concern Titan would trip on it when I was riding. The tape has always been in a poor state, at least I think so from my memory, since I started boarding there. And I think it was split into 2 pieces (at least)for a long time. So Titan may have done nothing. I'll try to find photos and videos I took before and see if they show it clearly enough that I can tell that it was lying on the ground in the ring.
Your comment about maybe it's not laminitis has been haunting me since the Sunday 3 weeks ago when everyone was so sure it was laminitis. But I got the impression my vet was at least wondering about the cause since he is not grossly overweight. It just seems odd that it happened the day after his feet were done. He had been wearing heartbar shoes which really worked well with improving his feet. The shoeing before the one the day before he got laminitis my farrier was in a hurry and didn't have time to put heartbar shoes on him so put ordinary shoes on him. Then when she came back the day before he foundered and did his feet, she put heartbars back on him. I don't know if it is related but you start to look at every possibility. She's an excellent farrier so, like you say, this can happen with the best of farriers. But I wonder if she did something slightly different when trimming (she does not take much off) maybe just a little bit more than usual that set this all off.
It seemed odd also to me how fast he started to recover - the day after.
Interestingly, I took photos of him the day his feet were done so the day before he got laminitis (if that's what it was). One rather humourous thing is he wouldn't tuck his willy up as he was grazing and I didn't want photos with it dangling down so I had to take the photos from an angle where one of his legs blocked it. I won't have photos of his feet, just photos of his grazing and maybe trotting unfortunately but you will be able to see if he is overweight. I'll have to get them off the card in my camera but I will post them and I think you will agree he wasn't that overweight.
I am very concerned that the lady who runs the boarding place will ask me and Titan and Abe to leave. She's a really nice lady. Her 10-year-old daughter loves him and rides him (pre-laminitis). For the sake of electric tape that was never turned on I think since I've been there, it doesn't not seem to be a serious enough reason to ask me to leave. She only started boarding not long before I came there. I am a good boarder - I give her post-dated cheques months in advance. I bought her a really nice Rubbermaid wheelbarrow. She doesn't know what it's like to have bad boarders. When I emailed her last night, I told her that the tape was lying in the ring ever since I started boarding there and I know because I was worried about Titan tripping on it when I was riding him. Also I recall it draping along the fence and I may have even seen it broken. The photos from the day before he got laminitis may show what the tape was like - I've got lots of photos and videos taken since I was there so surely some will show what the tape was like. Titan may not be at fault at all. She said he was really upset with it on but he wasn't upset when I got there at about 6:30 last night. The board is not expensive and I love the care she gives my horses so I don't want to leave.
The hard plastic muzzle sure hurts when he turns his head and whacks your head with it.
Janice
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2008 - 11:23 pm:
Hmm I agree that a horse that is bilaterally sore the day following trimming is most likely to be that way because of the trimming. This can happen to any farrier so your veterinarian's out of hand dismissal is difficult to understand. The diagnosis is based on assessment of sole thickness and the differential sensitivity on hard and soft ground, for more see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming.
DrO
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2008 - 2:11 am:
Thanks Dr. O. I have been wondering about this ever since he was sore. Actually, my farrier didn't just dismiss the possibility she could have done something. That's one of the reasons she wanted to get to the barn quickly to see if she did something to cause it. She did check but could not see anything. That's another reason my vet shouldn't have initially refused to come out and didn't come out until I called her again to see if she knew of a vet who would come out. I know it's crossed her mind because when she phoned me after looking at the x-rays and was acting more civilized to me she said she does wonder why he would get laminitis as he is not grossly obese. She mentioned him having his feet done they day before but she has a lot of respect for my farrier so didn't think it likely but I could tell she was considering it. My farrier even called my vet to say she came out because she wanted to see if she had done something to cause it. She's very up front about her work - she will, without any hesitation, saying she was not pleased with how something she did turned out. But I'll email my vet and just ask her. It seemed like too much of a coincidence that Titan had his feet done the day before when the heart bars were put back on after him not having them for 5 weeks. He weighed about 1,067 which is not, as I understand, out of the range of the normal weight of a quarter horse. He's 15.2 and was 15.0 when I got him (I have a proper measuring stick). So he's not a small horse.
His improvement so fast (the next day), I found it odd the improvement was so dramatic so quickly. I see what my vet has to say.
Janice
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2008 - 7:50 am:
Janice, Does your farrier apply the heartbars per x-ray?
If you research heartbar shoes you will see that if they are placed even a little bit off they can do more damage than good and make a horse very sore. One of the many reasons I haven't used them....there are so many more better (imo) options available, most farriers don't use them anymore.
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2008 - 7:21 pm:
Thanks Diane. You could be right. But that may be why she didn't put them on when she didn't have time to put them on properly 2 shoeings ago. When I think back, she took a long time putting them on and used a ruler to ensure correct placement. She had tried Natural Balance shoes on him but didn't get the results she wanted. But once she started using the heartbar shoes, along with doubling his hoof supplement and using ioxuprine (spelling?), there was dramatic improvement in his feet. It was very obvious and he was never lame with them on.
But maybe she had a rough day the last shoeing when she put the heartbars back on. My farrier doesn't have an x-ray machine. I think you mentioned using an x-ray to ensure proper positioning of the heartbar shoes? I've emailed my vet to see what she thinks- about switching to regular shoes for the one shoeing before the last one then putting heartbars back on the day before he had symptoms of laminitis.
But you could by right. The vet over a week ago, recommended putting his heartbars back on. My farrier, on her way to Kamloops, came out and carefully assessed him and felt he was comfortable the way he was with the rubbery stuff I mentioned before on and she put more over the spot where I think there was some sinking ((I'm not sure if it was thinking and if I understood correctly).
It is so hard to figure out the answer to this puzzle. Hopefully, my vet will talk to my farrier (tactfully although she didn't have much of that with me but I know she respects my farrier).
I want to know the answer. I really feel there was too much of a coincidence going on for the cause to be him being overweight.
I've got to get those photos taken the day he was shod off the card. My farrier took photos of his feet when they were not in good shape many months ago and said she could really see the improvement. But maybe she slipped up this time with the heartbars. I'm not blaming her as she has been very dedicated and helped both of my horses (excepting this incident with Titan perhaps).
I just hope if my vet talks to her and I think she has to (but knowing how stubborn she is, she might not) she is tactful with my farrier. I expect my farrier would be quick to accept any responsibility for the problem but if my vet is rude to her, that will not help matters.
This has been such a hard situation to deal with. I adore Titan. Having this forum is so helpful in providing support so I don't feel alone.
Janice
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2008 - 8:58 am:
Hi Janice, I can't really address the foot problem, but as a farm owner, I've had a few boarders--some great, some not so good. Luckily I've never had a terror .
Sounds like you are anything but a bad boarder, and following your posts, I know how important it is to you to have a good situation for you and your horse.
You sound like you are doing everything right by your host. Until she's had a bad boarder, though, she could be hypersensitive to stuff that any horse does, especially if it isn't one of hers.(I remember the cribber I was so alarmed to have boarding--until I got my own 1,000lb termite!).
Since money doesn't sound like an issue, what if you hired a handyman to fix the wire? Less work than documenting it down prior, and may really score brownie points with the owner.
One thing I didn't realize when I boarded out, is how many little pain in the neck things constantly need tweaking on a farm. The boarders who took initiative and did things to make my life easier were my favorites. Believe me, you have no idea until it is your farm how much work and money are involved. I could board at the nicest facility for what it costs me to maintain my place.
I'm willing to bet it would cost you very little, but the payback in goodwill would be enormous!
As to the muzzle insert, I'll do a search and see if I can come up with anything for you.
Erika
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2008 - 9:08 am:
Janice, this one has a leather bottom, may be less likely to be expanded. I also saw some that have steel bars at the bottom.
https://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/products.asp?Area=&BrowseList=1275&CID=1&c=&dep t_id=1276
Jeffers® Anti-Grazing Muzzle
Used to help prevent founder and obesity. The small circular opening in the bottom limits the amount of grass a horse or pony can consume yet does not hinder water intake. Attaches easily to your horse's halter with 4 point adjustable attachment system. Made of nylon webbing with a heavy leather bottom. Available in pony and horse sizes.
DY-G1 Jeffers® Anti-Grazing Muzzle, pony size $41.25
DY-G2 Jeffers® Anti-Grazing Muzzle, horse size $41.25
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2008 - 9:11 am:
Here's a link to a "plug", I suppose you could cut the center to size--cheaper than a whole new muzzle:
https://www.bestfriendequine.com/grazingmuzzleplug.html
Hope it helps, good luck!
Erika
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 1:21 am:
Hi Erika. Actually, I should have lots of brownie points. Her ring was hard ground full of grass when I arrived. She wouldn't pay for hogfuel so my girlfriend and I split the cost. I think the total was about $1,000. In addition, I didn't realize when I first looked at the place at night there was absolutely no fence on one side of the field. There was a small creek running through and because no one had gone through it yet, she figured no one would. Guess who footed 1/2 of the bill $600 for the fence? And guess whose horse was the first one to go across? Both of mine. No thanks from the owner at all for paying for half the hogfuel and 1/2 of the cost of the fence. I bought her a $200 wheelbarrow to thank her for being good to my horses. I give post dated cheques in advance. The ring is a mess. It is never tended to in any way. It's hard to believe there was $1,000 worth of hogfuel there. It's full of grass. The footing is uneven. I've had 2 hip resurfacings (like replacements) and cannot fall. The electric tape (not electrified) was laying across the ring and I have moved it out of fear my horse would trip when I rode him. There has been no attention to the ring at all. On the other hand, she build tack rooms for every one and recently got a new boarder's husband, who is an electrician, to put lights in the tack rooms. There is no light for the ring so no night riding. I asked if she could ask the electrician if he could put a light in the ring. I bought her 2 kids probably about $200 worth of school supplied and drawing things for her 10-year-old daughter who draws (after a few weeks ago spending hundreds of dollars for belated birthday gifts for her. Her daughter emailed me for the horsey birthday stuff and thanked me. Her mom never thanked me for all the school stuff I just bought. All I got was an abrupt email complaining about my horse breaking her electric take (I don't think it has ever been used in the 2 years I've been there). I hoped for an email thanking me and being surprised about the wheelbarrow but nothing - just a "by the way, thanks for the email" about a week later.
She's great with the horses. The barn is kept clean and looks great. There are only 9 stalls I think. She called me immediately when she realized Titan hurt.
Now I'm somewhat resentful because I feel unacknowledged for nice things I've one for people, not just her and have made up my mind to stop going out of my way for people when I am living along on long term disability and no one seems thankful for anything I do for them and no one reciprocates. I already offered to pay for the electric tape. But I'm tired of being so nice - people love to take but giving doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary. I am just ranting but I really regret buying the kids all the things I did. "Thank you" goes a long way. I've spent $100s of dollars ordering expensive muzzles so it doesn't hurt her tape. I just don't have a lot of money. And I'm really tired of being nice (and very hurt) when I don't even get thanked. Don't take me to mean I am annoyed with you for your suggestion. Absolutely not. Your posts have been most helpful and well thought out. In other circumstances it would be a great idea. But I am just very weary and feeling very used by the people I've tried to help.
Janice
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 1:39 am:
Thanks Erika. I already ordered a "Best Friend" muzzle days ago but I suspect he will rip right through the bottom the first or second day and would be even more determined if there was a "plug" put in it. I think he feels someone successful if he can get one piece of grass (in the un-tended to ring with tons of grass)and would get really frustrated if he couldn't get that one piece of grass. I've seen him going at the ground and gross with his supposed sore feet trying to get the grass the stand up so he can get it to go through the hole. He's a real determined chap. Between all the money I've spent on other people and never should have and all the money I've spent on Titan (and don't regret one cent), I'm going broke.
Janice
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 1:54 am:
Thanks so much for all your help Erika. I went to order it and they are out of stock and not taking orders for it now. I think I may have ordered one like it from the UK. I have totally lost track of what I've ordered.
Thanks again.
Janice
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 9:50 am:
Hey Janice, want to board your horse here? I've got a lot of work to do around here and you could pay for it!
I've been reading your posts; good luck with Titan. He may not appreciate your efforts, but he should be glad he had you for an owner.
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Member:
jchadola
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Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 6:04 am:
Hi Sara - actually I think Titan loves me. I think when I fell trying to lead him to the ring and I was too weak to get up and kept DrOpping the lead rope and worrying he would run away, that I realized what he was doing was circling me - I think he was trying to protect me. He's a wonderful horse - a real sweetheart.
Janice
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Member:
sparky
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 14, 2008 - 3:16 pm:
Janice - I was just up in Kamloops at the Horse Barn and they have the leather grazing muzzles and the pastic ones there - 250-374-3511
I also have one that is at my girlfriends in Abbotsford right now and I don't know if she is going to use it or not but you can email me at home and I will let you know - It has an alluminum base with a rubber insert and just attaches to the halter. My mare grazed right thru the rubber and wore down some of the aluminum! I gave her a piece of rubber stair stuff that is pretty tough and she was going to cut out a new piece to fit in - that way you can make the hole any size you want. Anyway you can email me at home kingquad@shaw.ca or just call my cell at 604-556-8824 - I am in Mission.
Janet Schmidt
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