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  Discussion on Steroid injections and founder
Author Message
Member:
lkb8190

Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 8:34 pm:

Hello DrO,

I've read the posts I could find about steroids and founder, so realize that you feel the connection is unlikely. However, this horse has had steroid injections twice, and both times has foundered within a few days, which seems a little too coincidental to me. He belongs to a friend, not to me, and I don't have the details on what steroids were used.

He was showing lameness in his hocks, so in February received steroid injections in both hocks. A little less than a week later, he was severely foundered, refused to move, eat, etc. After coercing him into the trailer he went to the clinic for a few days of a DMSO IV. He came back and has been doing very well, being ridden lightly on soft ground, seemingly recovered.

The hocks got sore again though, so he went back this past Monday (it's Thursday now) and they injected his hocks with steroids again. It is now three days later and he was supposed to be okay to be turned out - but when I pulled him out of his stall this morning (I'm caring for him while his trainer is on vacation) we took two or three steps and went right back, he's again dead lame with founder. Gave him Banamine immediately and told the guy who feeds to cut out his grain for now - is there anything else you would recommend as initial treatment? I certainly feel like the steroids contributed, seeing how the horse had never had a problem until these two steroid treatments. But whether they did or not, the important thing I feel is to cut this episode as short as possible. He is acting normal in every way other than being lame on the hard aisleway - this time he has not gone off his feed, no depression, etc. He's a show horse so his body condition is a 6 - definitely not obese, but not starving either.

Has anyone found boots to use in the cold soaking? Something that you can actually leave on the horse for the full 48 hours? And DrO, would the cold soaking be beneficial now that the episode is going, or does the soaking need to be done as a preventative measure?

Thanks so much!
Lisa
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 6:44 am:

Hello Lisa,
What may be "beyond coincindental" from your perspective has little meaning from the perspective of the millions of doses given every year without laminitis particularly in the case of intra-articular injections. Steroids given in the joint result is a very small systemic dosage (about 1/10th) compared to horses that receive dosing for allergies for instance and minuscule for those on steroids for autoimmune diseases (as little as about 1/200th the daily or every other day dosage). That said there are always individual responses and if I had a horse that foundered twice following the use on any medication or vaccine I would think carefully before giving it a third time.

You will find our recommendations for the treatment of acute founder in the article associated with this discussion, click on Founder & Laminitis an Overview off the navigation bar above.
DrO
Member:
lkb8190

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 7:19 am:

Thanks DrO, I've read the Overview article and think I'm following those recommendations, hopefully we caught it early and there won't be too much damage done.

I think that the vets here will probably also conclude that this horse doesn't react well to steroids, but it will be interesting to talk to them about it, anyway.

I'm still very interested in finding boots that would work for the cold soaking, if anyone has found them!

Thanks!
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 7:27 am:

Lisa, I know I've seen the cold soaking boots either in the Dover Catalog or the Stateline Tack catalog. Unfortunately I don't have one of the catalogs in front of me, but check www.statelinetack.com. Not sure of Dover's web address, but a good guess is www.dover.com
New Member:
twadwis

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 10:01 am:

I haven't found any boots that can be left on for that length of time if your purpose is keeping the foot cold. Water needs to circulate/replace or the heat of the foot will heat the water quickly. I've seen contraptions on race/show horse legs that circulate cold water with hoses while they are in cross ties and I myself have tied a horse in a running stream but the boots referenced in catalogs are short term cold treatment in my experience. Also there seems to be different thinking as to when and why cold soaking is used in laminitis...could Dr O give us input here?-
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 3:35 pm:

Lisa,

I agree with Tanya about long term cold soaking with boots. I don't think its a good idea to keep a horses feet in any type of water for 48 hours.

Perhaps and alternative could be an Easysoaker boot with water and ice for 15-30 minutes a few times a day. Or teach the horse to stand in a low rubber tub with water and ice.

Cold usually takes down inflammation and it feels good.

I had a two year old filly quite a number of years ago, that spiked a temperature of 105 degrees. She had been on and off antibiotics and bute to take her temperature down and for some sort of respiratory illness she had. The illness and the temperature spikes had been happening on a regular basis but not quite so high.

I know that we shouldn't equate horses with people but when I was a young child I was prone to high fevers and my mother used to put me in a bathtub with ice and alcohol to naturally get my fever down. So that is exactly what I did with this filly. I filled two manure baskets with cold water and ice, put her back and front feet in them and stood her there until her temperature broke by itself 8 hours later. I also washed her off every hour or so with tepid water and alcohol and just kept adding more ice to keep the water in the tubs cold. I also put some coolers on her in between baths

She did not even give me a hard time because she wasn't feeling good to begin with. I took her temperature every half hour or so and I think if I had not seen any reaction I probably would have gotten her out of the tub sooner but after 3 hours, her temperature started to DrOp until it was below what I thought was normal for her. I never had another problem with either her relapsing or another unusually high temperature.

While this might have seemed a little extreme at the time, I was so worried she would founder from the high temperature. I already knew that to keep treating her with bute and antibiotics was only going to prolong what was going on with her. I handled it the best way I could at the time (30 + years ago). I was lucky, it worked, sometimes you have to take a chance when things are not going the way you want them to go and you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of whatever you do.

Good luck with finding the boots. Easysoakers are put out by www.easycare.com They make easyboots.

Rachelle
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Aug 9, 2008 - 10:53 am:

Concerning using water soaks for treating founder see the article and the subtopic "Soaking the Feet" under the treatment topic. Last Dec there was a major upgrade to this topic with new information.
DrO
Member:
lkb8190

Posted on Sunday, Aug 10, 2008 - 9:47 am:

Thanks everyone for the input! DrO, that 'new information' on soaking is exactly why I wanted to find soaking boots that would come up higher on the leg - but am only finding the shorter ones. That's still an improvement over a bucket, though. I know a perfect stream to use - but it's in Montana and I'm in Texas! I like the EasySoaker boots but they don't leave much room for ice, etc - so seems like you'd have to constantly dribble in ice cubes to keep it cold. Perhaps I should have tried what I did one other time - although that was caught earlier - and used ziploc baggies - I think a double layer, but taped around the hoof tightly, with another row of tape above the fetlock, but open enough that I could add ice cubes. The duct tape made that 'collar' stiff enough to stand up, and the tape around the hoof was below the coronet, so the ice kept his coronet bands cold for apx 24 hours - and you're right Tania, it warms up fast so I was in the barn for that whole time, adding ice apx every hour, round the clock. He never did get sore - other than very mildly which was why we treated it in the first place.

As for the horse, he seems to like DMSO (so they found during his initial case) so he's been to the clinic for two bags of DMSO (IV) and is seeming more comfortable, but is still on banamine as well. For longer term they've had him on aspirin, which is a little easier on the stomach than bute. After today, I won't be seeing him again for a couple of months.

Thanks again! Lisa
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