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  Discussion on Is no rings 5 weeks after a laminitis episode a positive thing
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Member:
jchadola

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 7:39 pm:

I was on this forum before because my horse, Titan, developed laminitis on July 14, 2008 and my prior vet (I emailed her and explained in a very professional manner why I did not want her looking after my horses anymore) refused to come and see Titan as in her view the laminitis wasn't serious and she and other vets had families (lame excuse) - I am a lawyer and he explained I cannot refuse to work evenings and weekends preparing for a trial because I have a family. Anyway, it was on July 14, 2008 that he got laminitis. My ex-vet wanted to put him out in the riding ring a day or 2 after he got laminitis as he improved so much a day or 2 later - this was before she developed her x-rays - which I thought was wrong to suggest when she hadn't even looked at the x-rays. At that point he weighed about 1,067 lbs. He is an 8-year-old quarter horse gelding and is 15.2. He did improve dramatically by the 2nd day I think because the lady who runs the boarding place called me right away and we got on top of it. My farrier DrOve out even though it took her an hour then finally after the vet got rude with me, she came out. I didn't go by what my ex-vet said about putting him in the ring (hog fuel, grass and dirt) and waited a number of days and, as suggested by my farrier, put him in the ring with a muzzle on with my 25-year-old thoroughbred to keep him calm and babysit him. His hay was cut in half. Initially he was given a handful of grain with his supplements in it. What I didn't know what the lady who runs the boarding place initially was giving him his supplements by syringe with no grain, then she found she could put the supplements on top of his hay. I thought that was a smart move on her part.

Since then I got a vet who was highly recommended. She practices with about 3 other equine vets so she told me what happened with my vet refusing to come out (my prior vet practices I think on her own in addition to having a bad attitude). Last week the new vet x-rayed Titan's feet again. She said that there was no rotation and there was a significant amount of space from the bottom of his coffin bone to his sole. She was happy with the x-rays. He has no rings.

My farrier had put his heart bars back on his front feet and the new vet said they were placed exactly where they were supposed to be. My farrier said there was no separation of the white line.

My farrier said that the Co-op had a feed with no grain. I called the co-op and their nutritionist who helps foundered horses and sets up programs for foundered horses (I never asked for this - it was just his kindness and I guess he sees it as his job) emailed me a chart setting out exactly what Titan should eat - the no-grain feed, various supplements, ground flax -this was to be a process that occurred over a number of weeks so it wouldn't upset his stomach. He also recommended a flake of 1st cut hay that doesn't have a lot of nutrition or calories in it but it would give him something to do and would keep something in his stomach. He was to get a certain number of lbs. of his regular hay but the 1st cut would give him something extra to chew on. We just started the program. In the meantime since he foundered, he went from 1,067 lbs approximately to about 990 lbs or so. He still has quite a thick layer of fat on him that we need to get rid of - ribs are not visible. All I have to do is phone a feed/tack store near the co-op, give them my credit card no. and for $20 they will drive quite a long distance and deliver 20 bales of the first cut hay. They delivered it with a big bag of ground flax last Saturday.

Everyone thinks he can be ridden in a few days - except the nutritionist who has helped many horses and recommends caution. I am going along with his recommendations and waiting 3 months or so then I will report back to the nutritionist as to how he is doing - the weather will be bad anyway. Titan gets to move around in a big ring so isn't standing still. He has company with my thoroughbred and the lady who runs the place switches my thoroughbred with a mare whom Titan likes - so he has social contact with other horses.

I am in no rush. I mentioned he is my therapy horse in my earlier post - I had 2 hip surgeries and riding builds up my strength in my legs and I fell hard on my face on concrete last November and lost my sense of balance and fall and riding helps my balance plus I am not depressed when I ride but get severely depressed other times. But I will gladly give up the benefits riding provides me so that Titan has more time to heal. The nutritionist has been around for a long time. He stresses he is not a vet but he has seen a lot of horses on his feed program recover and patience is the key. I am willing to wait because Titan means everything to me and his health comes first.

My question (sorry it took so long to get to it but I felt I needed to tell the whole story) my farrier thinks that even though we are about 6 weeks since he got laminitis and he has no rings, he can still develop rings and have changes in his feet so I am wondering if once his feet grow out and all there is is new growth, will the rings be gone and his feet be healed assuming I continue to treat him very carefully. The nutritionist said I could lead him around the ring when I can (I have chronic pain especially in my legs and my balance is poor) that would be fine (he said we both need to recover). So my question is whether with the new growth, his feet will be healthy.

Thanks.

Janice
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 7:02 am:

Hello Janice,
The rings caused by the founder will grow out but there may be other causes of hoof rings. For more see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Wall Cracks and Thin Sensitive Soles.
DrO
New Member:
toranada

Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 4:12 pm:

Hi Janice
I have just joined this group and saw your post re: the nutritionist at Co-Op. He has been helping me with my horse for the past year and half, very helpful person. I have my horse on the Equi Care feed, the only problem with it is that you have to feed at least 4 lbs a day to maintain proper nutrients (average size horse). This works fine for my horse as he has a problem maintaining weight, but for a horse that's overweight it might not work so well. I'm sure the nutritionist will tell you what would be the most appropriate feed for your horse.

Hope Titan has a speedy recovery.
Maureen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 8:19 am:

Welcome Maureen,
If you and Janice would like to continue to learn about equine nutrition let me point out the best place to start would be: Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses.
DrO
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 11:24 pm:

Thanks Maureen. I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but he is getting addition vitamins to what is in the no-grain feed. The nutritionist at the co-op knows how much Titan weighed (about 1,067 when he got laminitis) and how much he weighs around now (about 990 lbs) and that is before going on the nutritionist's program - I suspect it is a bit more that he was getting from July 14 when he foundered and now. My vet said to start lunging him as she said he needs exercise.

Maureen are you saying he's going to not get enough feed or too much? I've just emailed a photo of Titan the day before he foundered and he already knew his weight and height.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 11:29 pm:

Maureen - I read your post again. The nutritionist has him on extra nutrients in addition to what is in the no-grain feed I assume to take into account he is an easy keeper. So he is getting extra nutrients in addition to the supplements he got before he foundered. Because the hay they give at the barn is higher protein than the nutritionist would like he changed the kind of non-grain feed he gave him so that the percentage of protein was where it was supposed to be, i.e. the no-grain feed has less protein in it than what he had initially recommended before the hay was analyzed. He is analyzing the hay again for some additional things that were not checked for initially.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 11:33 pm:

Thanks Dr. O. I will read everything you recommended. I know there are growth rings that do not signify founder. Titan does not seem to be a horse who gets lame very much at all. I think he did last winter when the ground was frozen and now my farrier thinks he had a mild episode of laminitis and I know hard ground can do that. Other than that he seems very sound.

Janice
New Member:
toranada

Posted on Saturday, Aug 30, 2008 - 3:59 am:

Hi Janice
My concern was to much feed for a horse trying to loose weight, but with the nutritionist helping you I'm sure he will make sure your horse is getting everything he needs. Laminitis is such a frustrating problem, there are so many possible reasons for the cause and so many different ideas when it comes to treatment. My horse foundered in March 2007, you would think grass founder, but he hadn't been out on grass for 2 years and wasn't overweight. We changed his feeding program to all low s/s, but come March 2008 he foundered again. He's recovering nicely now, but we're still working on the cause.
Glad to hear your horse is doing well.
Maureen
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Aug 30, 2008 - 7:09 am:

Hi Maureen, I noticed you said your horse founders every March...does he receive his spring vaccinations then? My horse had been too. (He was fat)which is probably the main reason, but it always happened right after his spring vaccinations.(could have been coincidence)
The Rabies shot seemed to be the culprit. He only receives ewt/WN Rabies. This year he was not as fat in March, but I was too scared to give the Rabies, (he did not founder this year) so am going to switch his Rabies shot to Late fall and a different brand, as I think it is a very important vaccination and see how it goes.
New Member:
twadwis

Posted on Saturday, Aug 30, 2008 - 2:00 pm:

Since you are willing to give your horse the time off he may need have you considered pulling the shoes? It is generally accepted that shoes 'restrict' foot function (flexing) which also means less blood flow. If the idea is promote new growth with better attachment we need all the blood flow possible. The more he moves (more circulation) the better, but limited to what stress his damaged feet can handle. Good boots with firm pads inside will help him with any discomfort. Our experience has been straight line exercise, torquing those feet is to be avoided so I would wonder about lunging. We have found that long walks every day on pavement, barefoot with soaking boots, gives the fastest recovery. Sounds strange but makes sense if you think about it.
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 6:46 pm:

Thanks for your advice Tania. I am getting so much advice from so many people, I am going to end up fighting with everyone one. The heartbars really helped Titan to go from flat footed with paper thin sides to one to having a nice concave shaped sole and no longer having soft sides to his feet. The new vet and the farrier both recommend the shoes if he is being turned out with my other horse in the large riding ring - hog fuel and grass and dirt - and his muzzle. I can't walk Titan on the lead rope because my balance is off and I fall. My new vet said lunging was OK if he is lunged at the end of the lunge rope so there are no sharp corners. She said he needs exercise. Even the vet I no longer use said to put shoes on his feet as the ground is too pebbly. I expect the nutritionist is in agreement with the shoes. So I would be very wary to suggest to all these people that I don't want to follow their advice. My farrier says that every horse is individual and recommendations re shoes or no shoes can only be made with examining the horse and taking into account the unique characteristics of that horse. I really trust her. I do believe she is working towards barefoot but not just right now.

I would just feel very uneasy going against all the advice I have been given which at the moment is consistent. I guess also where I live has to be taken into consideration. There are so many things that need to be taken into considerations. I seem to have a "team" at the moment that all agree on Titan's rehabilitation. Each one is aware of what the other one is recommending so I don't feel caught in the middle.

I appreciate your advice. It makes it very hard to have 20 or so different types of advice when I am a layperson. I have to trust someone and right now I feel comfortable with the people how they are treating my horse but they may change the treatment later on. I'll have to wait and see as they are all monitoring Titan carefully.

Janice
Member:
jchadola

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 16, 2008 - 3:30 am:

I've been so devastated, I had to get away from reading about Titan's founder for a while.

Thanks for the advice but I seem to have lost my post and can't remember it all. They do not vaccinate up here in British Columbia for rabies - I believe it is because they never had a case of rabies in British Columbia but I don't feel comfortable with that reason. The vet did not even have the vaccination.

Maureen, you said your horse foundered every year. These questions are absolutely crucial to me given all my worrying. In between episodes of foundering, what was your horse like - was he rideable? Was he sound? Did he seem different from how he was before he he first foundered? Were you able to do all the normal things with him that you did before he started foundering? What treatment did you give him when he would founder. If you didn't ride him, for how long?

I guess I am looking for some hope here, i.e. that between foundering episodes he could very well be rideable.

When Titan goes for hand walks now, he is very energetic and feels good - he obviously doesn't realize he was injured. He is sound.

Your answer might give me some hope Maureen. I've been so devastated.

Janice
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 16, 2008 - 8:29 am:

Janice, my mare has foundered so many times I've lost count - somewhere in the vicinity of 15-16 times. It started when she was recovering from EPM as a 5 yo. Her last bout was in 2006. The last episodes have been caused by alfalfa. Once all she received was Accell (sp) which is a vit/min supplement in an alfalfa base. She received 1 oz for two days - the next morning she was foundering. The last time a kid kicked some hay that was mixed with alfalfa into her pen. Since then she has been fine and also hasn't been within a mile of any thing even remotely resembling alfalfa. She is sound although not ridable due to wobbler synDrOme. I finally quit riding her because I just couldn't stand the stumbling she does. She gets to be a very beautiful pasture ornament. We have always used the EDDS shoes and pads when she foundered and it was basically instant soundness. You can read about the system at https://www.hopeforsoundness.com . As long as you keep Titan's weight under control he should remain sound and totally ridable. Good luck!!
Cheryl
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 16, 2008 - 9:20 pm:

Hi Janice,

I'm sorry to read of your heartache. We owned a very beautiful mare name Stardawn who foundered many years ago and was not given a good prognosis. However, she was a very tough little horse and we continued to work with her because she had such a fighting spirit. We just took each day as it came, and continued to work with our farrier and vet. We decided that as long as she wanted to keep fighting and as long as we could keep her pain under control we would keep going. We loved her and I really believe that she loved us in return.

She recovered from that initial episode and went on to live many more years with good quality of life. In fact, our beloved Starie lived to be 31 years old, and taught many children how to ride during the second half of her life. She was, and still remains to those who knew her, a very special horse who touched many lives.

I currently own a mare who is a grand-daughter of Stardawn. She has also foundered, but her laminitis has been more chronic and difficult to manage. I used to ride her, but retired her last year after a long stretch of lameness. She has times when she does quite well, but other times it is a challenge to keep her comfortable. When she hurts, I hurt too, so I understand how hard it is emotionally and how confusing it can be to care for a foundered horse.

While there are general guidelines to follow, each horse must be managed individually. What works well for one horse may not work well for another. Continue to educate yourself and make the best management decisions you can along the way and keep hoping for the best. Sometimes things don't go well, but other times horses do much better than anyone would ever think possible. Good luck!
Member:
toranada

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 17, 2008 - 5:14 am:

Hi Janice

Ghost was exactly the same after he recovered. He foundered in mid March 2007, was sound by mid May, I didn't ride him until August and he was back showing in Sept/2007. He was sound and being ridden 30-45 min/day, 6 days/wk until mid March 2008. This time has taken longer for him to come sound but there was rotation in both fronts. He has been sound since July, but I don't plan on riding him until at least one full growth cycle. That should be around Jan/Feb.2009 and even then I will have xrays taken to make sure his hooves are OK.

Have you taken xrays, if so was there any rotation?

If the laminitis was caused by a weight problem, following the nutritionist feeding program could prevent your horse from having another laminitis attack.
Maureen
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