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  Discussion on Swollen mass as jaw/kneck level
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New Member:
india99

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 1:36 pm:

Hi my mare has just recently gone thru some very serious surgery all done in the same week. She tore her ddft and needed to have the torn fibres removed as she was unable to bare her weigth on her heel but due to the infection in her sinus they performed this surgery first to eliminate any infection travelling to the tendon area. so she had a hole drilled in her face and her sinus drained at the end of the same week they performed the operation on her ddft. Now back home I noticed her lip and nostril DrOopy and that a nerve has been damaged in her face but today after a fortnight home a very large hard lump has developed on the left side of her face which the vet has told me this is where the catheter has been inserted and to keep hot poulticing it, does this sound like the same area as the guttural pouch and just how serious is this, she was looking depressed but I hadn't seen this lump at first because her mane is quite long so I assumed it was due to the trauma of the operations but now I realise she's been very uncomfortable, she is eating well and drinking thankfully but how long will this last for.
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 2:04 pm:

india i have no words of wisdom here for you... but your poor girl has been thru the ringer...I am very glad she has you to take care of her, you sound like you are on top of things..
On your rehab , count Mondays they go faster then counting days..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
New Member:
india99

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 4:21 pm:

Ann thanks for your post, this beautiful girl was painted black and white and was a 16.3hh stunner before all this, she's 9yrs old and was in her prime, I must admit I've had my emotional days over this and just as you get your head round one thing another thing comes up I can't beleive how much bad luck she's having. She's usually very bolshy and a little arrogant I suppose but she's being a very well behaved girl and I think one thing she likes at the moment is all the pampering.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 8:05 pm:

India, I'm so sad that you and your mare are going through all this. I know first hand how difficult it is for you and all about the emotional ups and downs. (Ann knows a bit about all that too.) I can't give you any medical advice, but you certainly have my emotional support. The group on HA gave me a lot of support when our poor Libby was going through all her difficulties. I'm sure they'll do the same for you. Feel free to post just to "moan and groan" on the rough days. It sounds like you have a tough, smart mare. Her good behavior is evidence that she will do what she can to help herself, imo. Hang in there and good luck.
Member:
alisa

Posted on Saturday, Aug 30, 2008 - 12:21 am:

Hi India99,

I too am not able to do much but I know how compounding issues are really hard to deal with. You have been diligent with the care to your horse and yet more things show up. It may be that everything was not fully diagnosed or that something else occurred in the course of treating her. I did not know what a gutteral pouch was so I googled it - https://treatmentofdiseases.blogspot.com/2006/01/mysterious-guttural-pouch.html

I am including this link because if you haven't already read it you might want to. There are several different issues that can come up in the guttural pouch and they can be serious but if that is in fact an issue it seems you have seen it quickly and there are treatments for it. One of the things you mentioned in your post is a DrOopy lip and nostril which can be an indicator linked with an infection there but there are other symtoms as well that you haven't mentioned.

Did your vet see this swelling and say it was the catheter location or reply without seeing it? This is a fairly rare condition in horses but given you have mentioned one symtom that goes along with an infection there and because there are serious consequences if not dealt with I think it's worth pursuing it further - if only to rule it out.

I recently had xrays done on my horse because he has been severely lame and the many things I was doing for him just wasn't producing results that were satisfactory. I was terrified of course about coffin bone rotation - and I waited two weeks before I had them done for this very reason. Luckily there was no rotation - had there been I would done what I could do. I am very relieved about this certainly. It has been a great relief yet I too have continuing complications and a lot to do to get Kid sound.

To cope with the number of issues Kid has, well I have calmed down a bit and I break up the issues and fight each looking for a little bit of improvement and greater clarity. Having improvement in some ways, ultimately so I can DrOp a given issue off the list, and I have had some of that, helps me see retrospectively a clearer picture of what the true, main issues have been and what remains. I can see that I was anxious about things that didn't come to pass (but of course could have) and I was anxious about not having a clear enough picture. The anxiety in the course of all this has been very difficult to live with - and as I see it, it didn't help anything at all.

So please know that you are doing very well, asking the right questions, getting the help your horse needs and I feel sure you will continue to find and treat everything for her. She sounds like a fighter herself and while she may well be depressed she is still eating and drinking - so she's helping too.

My very best to you and your girl.
Member:
india99

Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 5:55 am:

Thankyou both for your support it does help to know people understand how emotional we get over our four legged friends the lump has got bigger but now I,ve been told just wrap it in a hot towel and keep an eye on it, but once again the girl aint off her food yet so still good news about that, the vet didn't advise having it drained as it is too near the jugular veins and it was too risky so just got to keep her comfortable, pleased your horse has not got ratation of the coffin bone tho but have they told you what is causing the lameness has he had laminitis to give the vet that suspicion.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 8:13 am:

Hello india99,
The picture you paint in the posts above leaves me wondering exactly what you are looking at. The guttural pouch area would be a bit high for the catheter placement but you should be able to see where the old catheter was. If this is the site of catheter placement and it is continuing to swell I disagree with your vets wait and see position, and this needs examination to determine the nature of the swelling to determine if further treatment necessary.
DrO
Member:
india99

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 1:43 am:

DrO thanks, It is on the left just where the loose skin is under the kneck and just below the hard muscle on the top of her kneck where it meets the back of the jaw line I can see a slight blemish where it looks no bigger than an injection site so I,m not sure how big the catheter is but if it is just thin then this is where the swelling is I have noticed is is slightly going down on the left but starting to spread under the kneck just behind back of jaw, (not where the actuall glands are though underneath jaw). you can feel it like a hard mass but once again she is eating well and drinking and looks well in her self. Do you think it is something to be worried about I don't seem to be getting much info from my vet.
Member:
india99

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 1:33 am:

Dr O I have had the vet out as up to now information on this was over the phone and she has said it is phibulitis of the jugular vein and not at the site of the catheter it's on the opposite side of the kneck from where the catheter has been placed, This is a bit of a long story but when india injured her tendon and needed an operation I had her referred to a vet that specializes in tendon operations because I wanted the best for her, but I was happy for my vet to deal with the sinus problem however when she was at vets she was referred to, they wanted to eliminate any chance of infection getting to the tendon when operated on so decided to drill into sinus first and drain that. So now she's back home it's my local vet who is back on the case and today she is going to speak to the other vets to find out if india was given an iv on that side of the neck and why because they now think that it is this swelling that is causing the face parallesis and that I need to feed her up height to try and prevent it spreading to the head which I assume they mean her brain which sounds like this is more serious than I thought, she still has a strong smell coming from one nostril so this means she still probably has a tooth there to come out which I feel like staying with her this time so I can see what gets done to her it's just seems never ending for her and I just want to concentrate on her rehab for her tendon injury
e
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 6:40 am:

It is an odd history for phlebitis and just as the location a bit high for catheters, a bit high for usual IV injections. What treatment were prescribed. Let us know what you find out about cause.
DrO
Member:
india99

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 8:15 am:

Hi, Still waiting to hear back from vet with regards to reason for iv on that side I did query the gutteral pouch with her but she assured me it was too low even though it is high the swelling, she said that was the jugular vein, She has put her on bute twice a day and noridine antibiotics twice a day also to apply dmso onto the area and hot and cold therapy because it is quite hot also, Is there anything else you can think of that may help her circulation and I can't find anything that says phlebitis can cause nerve damage, but gutteral pouch can have this side effect, do you know of any cases of phlebitis that has caused nerve damage. By the way thanks for the quick response it's much appreciated.
Member:
india99

Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 7:35 am:

I phoned the vet last night because india's veins on the side of her face as the lump on her neck, where promintly standing out and the one that runs under her jaw was practically hanging down she could only say at this point that it was all related and that the veins where working harder because the one in her neck was shutting down, she's coming out today with a scanner to see if they can see how bad things are. I,m going through a bit of a dark stage at the moment and imagining the worst and thinking the blood clot is gonna break up go to her brain or lungs please tell me I,m being over reactive on this Dr O
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 8:43 am:

No, jugular vein phlebitis is not associated with nerve damage. india99 all I know about this case is what you tell me so I cannot judge the seriousness. Let's see what they find on the ultrasound today.
DrO
Member:
india99

Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 8:53 am:

Thanks for the quick reply I can't understand why she said that then unless she's already thinking the worst and thinks it's broke off to the brain and caused a stroke which is what I thought had happened to her face initially. Your right no point speculating I will see what the scan comes up with. The vets that did the operations have said, nothing out of the ordinary happened, everything went straight forward and they can't remember if they did or didn't give her an injection on that side, so not much to go by there unfortunately. Could a wasp sting get into the jugular vein like this because there has been a few wasps flying about recently.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 10:02 am:

India, perhaps this is "just" a large cyst. There was recently an article in one of the horse magazines about a filly who developed a large cyst. They showed a pictures of it and it looked like a football hanging on the horse's neck. If you'd like I can try and find the article. I remember that the filly recovered with no problems, but forget how the cyst had to be treated. I'm just saying there are other possibilities, so don't dwell on the worst case until you know for sure what the problems is.

I hope you were able to get a little sleep. I'm thinking about you and your mare. I'm sorry you are both having to go through this. Hopefully, the vet will have some good news for you. btw, if your vet is unable to diagnose and treat your mare's problem, don't hesitate to take her to a larger clinic or school.
Member:
india99

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 - 10:22 pm:

hi, it's been a few days since I,ve been on i,ve been unable to get to computer. When vet came other day she didn't bring scanner she just took a biopsy of tissue from lump in kneck to make sure she was on the right antibiotics however India had a bad day on saturday just after her breakfast I noticed she was trembling all over and wouldn't eat hay, then to my horror she collapsed, got vet out immediately by the time he got there she was back up standing and making me out to be a liar. The vet took her temperature and it was off the end of the thermometer he said the only reason she was standing was because the bute she was already on, had kicked in from her morning meal so he injected her with more bute and changed her antibiotics to pennicillin with strep something in it and told me to give her two sachets of bute morning and night until her temperature was normal and then back to one twice a day, the lump has reduced in size but something is making her temperature rise and unfortunately she still not 100% and antibiotics have finished, but the vet on saturday slightly contradicted the other vet and said the lump was from the operation from being lay down so long and blood had clotted there and that all sorts of complications can happen when operating under general anaesthetic so not sure what caused the high temperature and not sure if she's out the woods yet will keep you informed and if you have any suggestions on what you might think is going on with the poor girl please say because any help at the moment is much appreciated
Member:
paul303

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 12:55 am:

It seems to me that if she still has a temperature, there is still infection present. I would get her back on antibiotics as soon as possible - and tell them to give her one that works. Sorry, but it is troubling to read this history. Are you able to get another opinion? Maybe a fresh mind could help out at this point. If her temperature was that high, I would be inclined to get a thermometer and check it often, perhaps hosing her lower legs with cool water, if necessary - in addition to the bute.

Are you watching her water intake? You really don't want any dehydration at this point.

Part of your vet's job is to make sure that you understand exactly what is going on and to send you somewhere for help when necessary. Make your vet explain exactly what is going on - make all the vets explain.....and write down what they are telling you - I do. If you don't write it down while they are telling you, you might forget something important. Then, read it back to the vet so that they can correct anything that needs it.

It's a tough time, India, best of luck.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 7:17 am:

Though I do not know the specifics of the particular medication you are using, due to the high incidence of gram negative resistance to (dihyDrO)streptomycin and frequently inappropriate concentrations of the mixture of these two drugs in veterinary preparations I am not much of a fan of this product.

Penicillin and gentamicin is still what I reach for when I have remarkable infection and I don't have sensitivities to operate from, as long as kidney function and hydration is good. However many are afraid of gentamicin and would choose Naxcel or Baytril. You can read more about these and other antibiotic choices at Treatments and Medications for Horses ยป Antibiotics and Antimicrobials.
DrO
Member:
india99

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 7:05 pm:

ok here I go again, today I noticed she was looking down again and on further examining of her I noticed another lump further up at eye level just down from ear on same side. I spoke to vet over phone as unfortunately there has been an outbreak of blue tongue on a local farm so no vets able to come out, he is going to call out tomorrow he said peices could break away from this so I asked him outright if a blood clot could break from this and travel to her heart or brain and kill her and he replied yes I asked so how will I know when she's in the clear if there is still a lump present and he said it would be hard and no longer hot, and that usually takes about a fortnight but it's been a fortnight and it's still showing to be active, tomorrow he is going to put her on a different antibiotic not an injectable one, I can't remember the name but he did say horses tend not to like the taste of it. Thanks for the advice I will do a print out of antibiotics and query them with vet tomorrow I just wish this was all over. With regards to her injured leg it looks great and I think she will come completely sound if she lives to see the day I just hope she does after all she's been thru, this has been an horrendous time, up one minute and expecting the worst the next. But being able to discuss it on this site has been a great relief at times
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 7:48 pm:

India - good wishes to you and your horse. I feel for you, and send positive thoughts. Hopefully you will get on top of this soon.

Lilo
Member:
alisa

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 10:43 pm:

India -

I am wishing you and your sweet horse well.

Where are you located? Maybe someone on this site can make a recommendation or knows the vets you're using at this point. Perhaps they can comment on the vets reputation and/or suggest someone that they have confidence in.

Just a thought. I hope you know we are all feeling and rooting for you and your girl.

Alisa
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 11:18 pm:

India,

I have had very good luck getting my horses to take bad tasting oral antibiotics by mixing them with pancake syrup. I started out with Karo syrup but it was too thick and too sticky.

If it is pills or powder you have to give, get a dose syringe from your vet or local tack supply store. You might want to cut the tip to allow for the medication to be dispensed more easily.

Try to dissolve the pills in a small container with a little warm water and then add the pancake syrup and shake well. Pour into dose syringe and shake. Try giving a little at a time in the back of your horses mouth rather than trying to do everything at once and try to do it when she doesn't have anything in her mouth ( although some horses are very sneaky and even when you think their mouths are empty they still have something in there).

I know you are going through a rough time, at least this might make the medicating part of this more palatable for you and your horse.

Good Luck to both of you.
Rachelle
Member:
india99

Posted on Sunday, Sep 14, 2008 - 4:15 pm:

hi, thanks for the support, the vet came friday and he said the swelling further up was a salivary gland i feel quite stupid now I,ve seen it so many times before but my heads all over the place at the moment. The blood results came back and staphlochocus was the bacteria in the neck and the antibiotics she was on where resistent to it so she's now on 35ml of baytril syringed into mouth a day. I actually turned her out for a few hours today which regards to her leg is a no no really but that indicates how poorly she is at the moment as she only walked in field, but I knew that, otherwise I wouldn't of turned her out. Fingers crossed these antibiotics will sort her out and things will turn around for her.
Member:
india99

Posted on Sunday, Sep 14, 2008 - 4:26 pm:

Sorry i forgot to mention this and I think for anyone else who is unfortunate to be going thru the same thing with there horse this is important information. The vet scanned the neck on Friday and it showed a large blood clot in the jugular vein but the blood was still managing to get round it. I asked him again about it breaking off and his reply was it isn't as dangerous as a human being having a blood clot and that it usually stays quite localized to the spot and the only recorded case has been via air getting in from a catheter which made it travel to lungs in the initial stages. The real risk of this blood clot is the infection so once this is controled we should see a happier horse. if anyone thinks this information is not accurate, I would be interested to know. The vets I am using are Castle vets at Barnard Castle and I,ve always found them thorough in past I do feel I have had a very unlucky horse rather than anyone's incompetance, but I understand anyone's fustration over this.
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