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| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Cardiovascular, Blood, and Immune System » Equine Infectious Anemia (EIA) and the Coggins Test » |
| Discussion on Equine Infectious Anemia | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 3:38 pm: Please help, Dr. O. A week ago (15 days after returning from 6 weeks riding and camping in North Carolina and Virginia) my 17-year old gray Arabian Lance's rear legs swelled up to the hocks (no definition) and also had heat in them. After drawing blood (CBC), my Veterinarian found that the red count was low (and one "low lymphocyte(?)") and also stated that the blood looked abnormally thin. He says the horse has anemia. Lance was running a high fever and felt extremely hot to the touch. The glands on both sides of his head were quite swollen, gums a little pale. At times he would breath hard. He is easily winded with little exertion, which is very abnormal for him. Eating and drinking well. The Dr. gave him a Baytril shot (continued for 4 more days), Banamine shot (and prescribed twice daily Banamine), Dexametasone injection. Performed an Abdominal Paracentesis, which was unremarkable showing a small amount of sterile peritinitis, needle aspiration of swollen gland showing only salivary gland inflammation. He poulticed the legs the first visit, which helped the swelling only a little bit. The swelling has gradually gone down, but sometimes increases again. Two days later Lance's front feet were very swollen and by the next day he had some sores on the backs of his feet and also rusty colored blisters on his tongue and stomatitis on his gums and under his tongue. At this time it was also noticed that the inside of his nose was shiny dry, inflammed reddish/yellowish, no discharge originally, now looking a little moister, glands under mouth also swollen. The third morning he had sores on the fronts of all of his feet (looked somewhat look dew poisoning) with serum oozing out. This morning his back feet were very swollen and he had a great deal of heat above his hooves on all four feet (no bounding pulse. I am treating the sores as I would dew poisoing/scratches. His back legs had swelled again but not as bad as the worst. Also this morning the bottoms of his front feet have a light red colored area surrounding and following around the inner hoof wall (from toe end extending about halfway back). State agricultural Doctor does not think that it is Vasticular Stomatitis (test pending), said it could be EIA, EVA, rabies or ingested toxins. (fairly large quantity of pigweed eaten the last two weeks in NC where the hay was horrid with lots of weeds, observed eating oak leaves upon return home in spite of ample grass and hay). Other tests: lbb Lyme (negative), Equine EVA (not back), IDEXX Rocky Mount. Spotted Fever (negative), EIA (Coggins test -- not back), Fluid Analysis w/Cyto, Blood Smear. My Vet has ordered a couple of additional tests for Ehrlichia at labs that do more sensitive testing. He has also put the horse on forty (40) 100 mg Doxycycline tablets twice daily. I'm not sure where to post this but am very worried to have 2 Vets think that this may be EIA. Any help of suggestions? I am very scared for my beloved Lance. What do you think about all of this inflammation? |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 3:44 pm: Forgot to add that Lance's mane and tail hairs are falling out. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 4:08 pm: Oh, Vicki, I feel for you. How scarey! I wish you and Lance the best. It sounds like you are doing all you can for him. Your love for him shows through in your post. I hope and pray he recovers from this. Please keep us posted. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 6:11 pm: Thank you, Sara. To me this horse is priceless and I told my Veterinarian that if having results back earlier for anything could potentially be helpful to the outcome that I wanted to go ahead.I should have added a couple of things to my post such as the horse has not been lame so far (though I am increasingly worried about laminitis setting in) but the sores make him sufficiently uncomfortable that I have had to continue the Banamine although the period of fever has passed. Also, he was immediately put on Red Cell. This has been very frightening. I've had Lance since he was 2 and we have been partners in more fun than I could have every imagined. He is my heart. Sorry about all the spelling errors in my first post. I am kind of an over-tired wreck right now getting by thanks to help and prayers from family and friends. I need a diagnosis and I know that this heat, swelling and inflammation must stop before my boy can start to be okay again. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 7:46 pm: Spelling errors? You certainly have a good excuse.I've been where you are, although the problem was different. So have others on HA. I know you'll get a lot of support. I just wish we all lived near each other so we could physically be of help. If you have to keep him on pain meds for very long, you might want to consider putting him on Gastroguard. It was recommended to me by her vet when Libby was on bute for so long. She never did develop ulcers even though she was on several very strong antibiotics and bute. |
| Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 7:51 pm: Good lord Vicki, I wish I could help. Know that we are all thinking of you and pulling for a fast recovery and a useful diagnosis.I hereby declare you exempt from the rules of spelling and grammar for the duration of this post. Please let us know how you and Lance get along. Wishing the very best for you both. |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 8:17 pm: Vicki, Lord the not knowing is the worst.Hope you find out very soon! There is NO reason for what I say next save it worked twice that I know of Thermoflex used on the legs and the feet in ice water helped stave off laminitis! No medical reason why could have been luck. I wish you tons of that and a rapid return to health for Lance! |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 9:30 pm: Thank you Sara, Elizabeth and Cindy for the kind words and good suggestions. I iced Lance's legs and feet tonight and it took the heat out of the rear legs only briefly. He seems okay in the front still, except for the sores (no heat now) and I have applied loads of Desitin for protection on all 4 feet. The swelling in the hind legs has not improved much today after worsening, and I may continue to ice a number of times daily in the pursuit of warding off laminitis. Dear Lance is taking everything in stride and I was very happy to find a proper combination of ingredients to add to his feed so that he happily eats his Doxycycline. Tonight I am thankful for that and for your help and encouragement. |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 10:09 pm: Vicki...thoughts and prayers from Demetrius and I for you and Lance. I hope you get some answers soon...please do keep us posted as to his condition! Keeping you in our thoughts!v/r Corinne |
| Member: paardex |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 4:17 am: Vicky what a horrible situation, I'm thinking of you and soo hope Lance feels better today!Not knowing what you are in for must be so unsettling on top of it! Jos |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 8:56 am: Vicki, very sorry to hear of your troubles with Lance. I will keep my fingers crossed that your vet figures this out and you are able to treat him for a complete recovery. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 9:44 am: Thank you all so much. It looks like laminitis is just beginning. Calling farrier and Vet. Please pray for Lance. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 10:26 am: If you think he is starting to get laminitis, start treating it right away, even before the vet comes out. The sooner you treat, the less damage there will be. If he's not on bute, start him, put him in deeply bedded stall if he isn't already, and tape styrofoam pads on his feet. Read Dr. O.'s article re: laminitis on HA. Poor guy! Hang in there, Vicki! |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 11:31 am: Thanks Sara -- We iced legs and feet. Lance is not distressed yet (of course, is on Banamine already) and if it is laminitis beginning we are immediately on it. My Vet. will be out at 1:00 and it sounds like he has the same idea of what you are saying to protect the feet. No word back yet from farrier. I am going to read Dr. O's article now and search for the styrofoam and tape. I had already gotten extra bedding in case this happened and will send my husband out for more. My Vet has now talked with the State of Florida Agricultural Vet. who was also out here and who is supposed to be very smart and has seen a lot of things. He told my Vet that he has never seen anything like this before, and I cannot help but think that maybe there are a couple of problems at once with laminitis now just beginning. I've done laminitis treatments before with horses and had good outcome. So grateful my boy is not yet suffering profoundly. Should add that he appears to have some edema in his chest (will confirm with Vet). Swelling in back legs not improving, heat comes back after icing or hosing. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 11:58 am: Is there any chance he could have eaten some noxious weed in his hay or anything else he could be having some kind of reaction to? Grasping at straws here, but what is going on with him sounds quite a bit like what happened to one of our horses years ago when he got into some hoary allysium. |
| Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 12:08 pm: Hi Vicki,Lance is lucky to have you. Certainly he is receiving the best care possible w/o a diagnosis. I have used old flip flops and also jumping wedges(the black ones, not the flimsy lollipops) for hoof pads when I did not have styrofoam. They work fine. Hoping hard for you and your horse. |
| Member: lilo |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 12:15 pm: Vicki - I just want to add my good wishes to all the others. You and Lance are in my thoughts and prayers. Hoping that you will get answers soon and with it the correct treatment.Lilo |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 1:14 pm: Vicki, wanted to add my thoughts and prayers are with you too. Hoping Lance recovers soon.I have used the closed cell, foam garden kneeling pads from Walmart with good success, when I can't find styrofoam. |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 2:59 pm: Vicki, will echo Sara on weeds fiddlehead ferns are tempting to horses and cause great upset!Can you tell we are all wishing we had a wand to wave and make Lance better in a blink?! |
| Member: frances |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 3:09 pm: What a horrible situation Vicki. I do hope the vet can pinpoint the problem on this visit so that you know how best to combat it.I have heard that (computer) mouse pads are useful in the event of laminitis. Good luck ... |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 5:34 pm: Sending positive healing thoughts to your beloved Lance and strength to you Vicki! |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 5:49 pm: What absolutely great ideas and suggestions. I want to thank each of you for taking the time to help me. Lance seemed to very much like his ice water soak and ice wraps. Afterward, the Vet arrived early and was up at my barn walking him around for several minutes before I knew that he was here, and Lance did fine walking, however, he does not like standing on the left front (hard to make him pick up the opposite one) and that is the foot that has a pulse that can be felt for about 20 seconds at a time, stops and then returns. Neither foot showed tenderness to any of the tests that my Vet. did to the sole, though he did initially react to pressure on the middle front of the Coronet band, but after the first test there, he didn't react any more. This is a very stoic horse with regard to pain.The left front foot has quite a bit of flare on it. He had been in shoes in NC. There is what appears as bruising on both front feet as I described earlier and it is worst on this foot. Vet. thought the brisk walking around may have helped the swelling in the rear legs. He is concerned about the possibility of laminitis given all of the circumstances. He suggested rocker shoes on front feet with a 3 degree wedge, not urgent to do so today, but soon for prevention. My farrier probably isn't going to agree with that as he likes to instead take a shoe and put it on backward, leaving it off the toe area. Farrier likes him in the deep shavings so he can manage as feels comfortable to him but that if things worsen, put shoes on. I hate it when farriers and Vets don't agree. I am thinking that the couple of times I have iced may have improved things since it was done so quickly but have mixed feelings about whether or not he should be out walking around right now. I have placed deep shavings in the stall. Vet. put standing wraps on the back legs at which point blood in the vessels above his rear legs stood out more. I have been instructed to remove them this afternoon, take Lance out for a few minutes of walking around, then hose/ice, and reapply standing wraps and leave him stalled in them tonight. Tomorrow I will have the EIA results, and the EVA maybe also. The Ehrlichia, Vesicular Stomatitis and some other things may take longer. I asked my Vet. about checking for excess selenium (which concentrates in some weeds or plants and would have had to have been from when I was in NC) and nitrates (created by pigweed ingestion). Also, I told him that there are signs around Moses Cone Park near Blowing Rock that warn parents not to allow their children to play in the soil because it contains dangerous toxins due to intensive agriculture over a long period of time (including growing apples). I have seen Lance eating soil or clay several times over the years. In fact, he was eating the new pine shavings as I was putting them in the stall today although he has absolutely beautiful hay. Lance's urine had been dark when this began and is now normal looking. The blisters in his mouth are much better and the ones in his nose are gone, though that is still inflamed. Still caring for the sores on the feet. Will let you know as test results come through. My Vet. is doing another CBC to see if the numbers have improved. Again, thank you for your caring, encouragement, super suggestions, prayers and hope. You really have helped me to feel better and to dare to hope. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 9:58 pm: You might discuss Stuart Clogs with your vet and farrier instead of the rocker shoes. I know I've mentioned them before on another thread; they have help Libby so much that I'm a strong believer in them, although I know they aren't good for all situations. The rockers have to be put on exactly right or they will do more harm than good from what I understand. If your farrier is experienced with them they work for some horses. I've learned the farrier had to know what he's doing. The clogs allow the horse to put weight where it is comfortable and are not nailed on so you don't have to worry about the nailing causing more trauma to the foot. I thought I'd just pass this on. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 10:11 pm: Thanks, Sara. This sounds very interesting and I will talk to my farrier and learn about this product. It sounds like something that he would approve of. Things have gone as well as I could have hoped for tonight, and tomorrow I should have some of the test results. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 8:40 am: Hello Vicki,I apologize for the slow response. I posted yesterday but apparently it got lost in our broken down connection we had this long weekend. First let me say fever, lymphadenopathy, and peripheral edema are common to a several viral and a few rickettsial and bacterial diseases of horses. And most of these have a good prognosis for survival. Hmmm some things have changed since yesterday but you have gotten hold of the laminitis article. If there is a real concern of founder I would consider the icing preventive treatment in the article as it is effective. I would be interested in your horses vital signs as discussed in Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Taking Temperature, Pulse, and Respiration and how these are changing over time. It will be the best indicator of how things are going. Lastly, exactly what type tests are being run: most of these tests are not accurate early in the course of a disease. DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 11:26 am: Thanks, Dr. O. It is good to hear from you as I got a little worried that you didn't reply sooner because you thought the situation hopeless. After the first couple of days the temperature controlled well with Banamine and without Banamine pretty soon thereafter, though we put him back on the Banamine for other reasons. The horse is feeling much more energetic and brighter since last evening. Though I have been religiously charting his temperature for many days I didn't even take it this morning, but will do so the next time that I go to check on him. Throughout yesterday he was completely within the normal range. Yesterday the capillary refill time was between 2 and 3 seconds and I will check that too when I go up next. The gums are a better pinker color now than when this began. Urine is a normal color though early in the course of this, I believe that it was dark. 24 hours ago the backs of his front feet were bright pink. This morning that color is forming a band above the heel bulbs but also extending up to where each of the sores is located. The top half inch or more of each hoof has bulged out, which is especially noticeable toward the back of each foot. Since this illness presented, the right rear has been slightly more swollen than the left and that foot has more yellow-pink area on the front of it than the front of the other rear one. He also has a clean, dry, pink spot on the inside of that leg about the size of a dime that is peculiar because the skin on his back legs is black. Something about the bottom of that hoof seems different than the other three. This makes me wonder about the possibility of a snake, spider, or other bite though I cannot see any entry wounds and the skin looks smooth, but it is difficult to determine with swelling present. I remember noticing this pink spot when this started but dismissing it and now I am wondering if it is of any significance. I probably shouldn't even look to more possibilities until I get some test results back, but this is all very perplexing and is making me very anxious. I am still waiting for the EIA and EVA results. The EIA was drawn on Thursday, and this began Sunday afternoon a week ago. I will be sure to question my Vet about the tests and whether any need to be repeated. He is supposed to be re-checking the red blood cells as of yesterday and of course he did re-run the Ehrlichia and send that to two special labs. Last evening I followed what my Vet told me to do with removing the standing wraps then exercising the horse, hosing the legs for several minutes with pressure. After that I put ice wraps on for 30 - 40 minutes after which I put the standing wraps back on as per his instruction. Upon removing the wraps this morning, the swelling and heat in the rear legs was somewhat less. I should add that the swelling had been reducing gradually before getting worse again. The heat in the front didn't seem significant this morning though it increased after exercise. Where I had felt a pulse coming and going yesterday in the left front, there is occasionally just a hint of pulse there. This morning after removing the wraps I exercised him, hosed, cleaned and treated the sores and let him out to graze. I am going up now to check on him and see if the swelling/heat is any different. I hate to leave him in the barn in wraps if it is not going to do any more good than being out moving around, which seems to help the swelling too. I should add that early on with this, there were moments of increased respiration, which seemed also to coincide with the horse feeling burning hot. I can't answer about the heart rate though assumed that it probably increased when the respiration did. Upon the least exertion he would be winded at the beginning of this and for days thereafter. This has improved greatly just in the past day, though not to the degree that is normal for him. Thank you so much, Dr. O, for trying to help me and my Lance. I will post any test results or changes in condition, etc. If this mystery is solved it will be a good one for the records. Most importantly I want him to get well, but I would very much also like to know what caused this if at all possible. His manure currently does not have any shape to it, but I am presuming that this may be a result of the Doxycycline? |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 2:05 pm: 1:00 PM Temp. 99.0, a little lower than usual but it was raining earlier and Lance was out in it. Capillary refill time 2 seconds or a little longer. He appears to be getting a new set of blood-colored blisters on his tongue and maybe some new cracked skin in his mouth that look like black-colored cuts. He had about 3 oozing sores on his body yesterday but may not be significant. Today he has an area at the top of a front leg where the skin is forming some folds, one atop the other, and in the middle the skin has cracked open and peeled back in both directions. His nose looks like the skin has lost elasticity and that it is about to erupt as it looks like the beginning of sores. Rear legs do not look any more swollen, maybe even a bit less, some heat in all four feet but not feeling pulse in the one foot that I was more worried about currently. He was willing to pick up all 4 feet. No foot sensitivity to being walked but is less energetic and became winded more quickly than this morning or yesterday afternoon. Received a negative on the Coggins so that is good news if it can be relied upon to have been taken at the right point in this illness? I don't know whether to get the Vet back out because I don't know whether there is anything more to be done at the moment. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 2:31 pm: 2:00 PM, Last time outdoors I had walked Lance around for the exercise but quit when I could tell that he was getting winded too quickly. The heat that has been in his legs is now better than it has been during the entire course of this illness. Heat and swelling has been from hocks down, rear legs only except for the heat in areas that have sores and intermittent heat in the feet. Right now the lower legs are cooler than the upper legs. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 8:11 pm: Lance doing better this evening. Capillary refill was up to 3 late this afternoon but this evening is very good. Temperature is down to just .2 higher than normal for this time of day. There is still swelling from the fetlocks down but the heat is gone. The new blisters on his tongue have changed from rust-colored to clear and he has no new sores since this afternoon. I have turned him out in a controlled area to graze. I am guardedly optimistic that he is beginning to work his way through this. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 9:11 pm: That's great Vicki, it does sound as if he got into some kind of weed. Hope his recovery continues! |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 2, 2008 - 9:23 pm: Thanks, Diane. Things have sometimes varied quite a bit within a few hours so I am hoping not to go downhill again. My Vet. said that the red blood count is in the normal range now (answer to how quickly this changed may be found in Dr. O's articles, I suspect). Some of the white blood cell indices are in the low range but with all that he has been fighting that is perhaps not surprising. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 6:30 am: The high fever, swollen lymph glands, and changes in WBC count strongly suggest infection instead of a toxicity DianeE. The number of bugs that could cause this does sometimes making a positive identification time consuming and expensive to run all the tests.DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 11:34 am: My vet explained that the tests show Lance is now making new red blood cells. The main concern with the white cells relates to MPV, which is still low. His fetlocks are still swollen (but that is better than to the hocks) and he still has sores/blisters present. His temperature at 100.0 was about half a degree higher than normal for morning today and I gave him a half dose of Banamine. Have been instructed to give him a full dose if it goes to 101, but to try and reduce and get off the Banamine. Have been hosing, icing. No hoof sensitivity walking and pulse in left front has not presented again. Vet. explained that Lance is going to be "exercise intolerant" for a while yet. Capillary refill seems to vary depending upon where and when taken from very quick to up to 3 seconds, Respiration increases at times but does not persist as such for lengthy periods of time. Vet. wants to check the blood again in a week. He is treating this as though (ricketial?) tick related presently, though we are still waiting for EVA, V.S. and the rerun Ehrlichia. Thanks for your input Dr. O, it is very much appreciated. Thank you all. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 7:05 pm: Dr. O, I am having a very frightening experience with this. I gave Lance only a half dose of Banamine this morning so I guess that it has now worn off. He has not had a fever. I was icing Lance's legs and letting him have some hay in a hay bag. He started out very happy, peaceful, restful, quiet and in good spirits, like his normal self. By the end though, he was very agitated, scraping his teeth on the stall wall edge repeatedly and reaching back like he was going to bite me as I was brushing him. It was like a complete personality change, but similar to what happened the other day when he was off of the Banamine for a day. The look and demeanor is something that I have never experienced with him before even when he was in pain or being treated over a long period of time. Thinking back I am recalling that a number of times it seemed like there was some straining with swallowing, so maybe he was in discomfort in that way too. But the personality change made me wonder if the brain begins to swell or something when the Banamine wears off. My Vet who I do trust said that Lance is just tired of the whole thing and uncomfortable but I reminded him that I took care of Lance for weeks with his eye problem and have handled him in bad pain before but he never had a complete personality change. The area of skin that had cracked open and peeled back toward the top of his leg has now completely peeled off and briefly left an area that looked almost like mange. The skin first sags like it lost elasticity, then compresses together and finally peels off over a couple of inches square then it sort of all goes back together quickly again leaving lines behind that look like cuts. He has some of what looks like cuts in his mouth too. The color was like some of the other sores that he has had -- yellow and red except for the little piece of black skin lying there under which the tissue seemed to stretch out and then contract back. And it looks like he is going to get another like this on the opposite side of his body in the same location as the layers of skin there seem to be hardening, kind of compressing together as happened before the other area was forming that split. My Vet said the skin things may still be a result of the fever that he previously had. This is so weird. My Vet says that half of a dose of Banamine is not really much good as a pain reliever or anti-inflammatory so don't give him any more tonight at all and see what happens, but check on him to make sure that he is not having a colic. If anything changes badly I am supposed to call him. Dr. O, I have been around really nasty horses before but this boy has never been like this in the over 15 years that I've owned him. Do some horses go through Banamine withdrawal? Has anyone experienced this or such weird sores? As soon as I feel like something is getting better something else gets worse. Still swelling in the fetlocks. Thank you for any insights or experiences that you can share. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 7:27 pm: What a tough time you are having with Lance's problem! I feel for you! I'm thinking his reaction was one of pain. I imagine his Banamine had worn off before you were through working on him. The teeth scraping can be a pain reaction, and the other sounds like he was threatening you because what you were doing was either causing discomfort or he was afraid it would. Poor guy! If the Banamine is helping, why did your vet want him off of it? How about a couple of grams of bute? Dr.O will probably have an opinion on this. I'd be inclined to ask my vet about keeping him on some kind of pain reliever though. and the bute is an anti-imflamatory. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 8:39 pm: Thanks, Sara. I do have to wonder about taking Lance off of anti-inflammatories when his poor body is going through so much. When I went back up to feed he was agitated but happy to get his meal even though it was loaded with anti-biotics. This is the sweetest horse. As I thought things over I realized that as Lance was eating hay out of his hay bag he seemed to be struggling with swallowing. I am thinking that he associated that discomfort with the fact that I was brushing him. He is likely best off eating only off of the ground right now. I've been attacked by a rogue horse before, so when I see anger in one who has never shown it in his life, it is hard to process. Thanks for caring. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 8:52 pm: Vicki what a mixture of symptoms, the leg swelling, weird skin things, mouth sores,some trouble eating and drinking and a bit of personality change.I wonder if the vet wanted to see how he'd be off anti-inflammatories? ...kind of to get the whole picture? I hope Dr.O. can help you out, it seems very scarey. Hats off to you for taking such good care of him, I sure hope he recovers, sounds like a wonderful horse. |
| Member: pbauer |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 8:54 pm: |
| Member: pbauer |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 8:58 pm: Dear Vicki,So sorry to hear about, Lance. I know pasture/paddock time makes a big difference in our horses' mental health. Your vet is right...Lance is tired of being sick! It almost sounds like he needs intensive care. Is there an equine care facility/hospital nearby? You sound exhausted. I'm concerned about you, too. Keeping both of you in my prayers, Tonya |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 9:47 pm: Vicki,Thinking of you & Lance. The personality change, the poor guy must really be hurting, how scary for both of you. I hope tomorrows sunrise brings good news. |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 9:52 pm: Vicki, my heart goes out to you and Lance it does sound as if he is skin sensitive from ? and I don't understand why no pain killer. What I do understand is you are in a lot of pain unable to fix a much loved Lance, I know I would be beyond frantic at this point! You have the power of prayers from this site, we will all be right beside for as long as it takes! |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 3, 2008 - 10:11 pm: Vickie, I was once charged by a "rogue" horse, and it was very frightening. Luckily, there was a strong fence between us, which he bent. (It was a big TB that had been sweet, but gradually changed and you never knew what to expect. It turned out he had a brain tumor.) I really doubt that Lance's behavior is caused by anything going on in his brain, but I guess anything is possible.Tonya has a point; do take care of yourself also. is there a hospital near you or does the vet feel this isn't needed? It might be an option. When I've had horses in a hospital, the staff has always allowed me to spend as much time as possible with my horse, but I had the option of leaving and knowing the horse was being constantly watched and cared for. Horses are a lot tougher than we give them credit for and have amazing recovery powers, especially when given love and help. |
| Member: shirl |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 12:41 am: Vicky,Prayers for you and Lance. He is lucky he has your love and care. Shirl |
| Member: paul303 |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 1:18 am: Vicki: one of my mares exhibited the behaviour you describe. I hadn't owned her very long, and she came with very serious objections to having her sides touched, brushed, or stroked. She was also extremely girthy. She did a lot of teeth raking, teeth gnashing ( when tightening the girth ), and head swinging with pinned ears. One evening we found her down and groaning....we rushed her to the nearest clinic. She had ulcers and her actions were caused by pain. When the ulcers were cleared up, after she came home, her true sweet nature emerged and has not changed in 3 years.It sure sounds like pain or discomfort with Lance. Sure wish I had some magic words to get you through this...But of course, there are none in this frustrating period of uncertainty. The important thing is: you're doing all you can. Wishing you the best... |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 7:47 am: Vicki, it sounds like his skin is painful so I would quit brushing him until this is over. One possibility is that occasionally doxycycline is associated with photosensitivity reactions: the skin becomes inflamed if exposed to the sun. Has the horse been out in the sun?Banamine may help, there is no such thing as Banamine withdrawal. DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 8:43 am: WOW! What a lot of good suggestions and information. Every one of them is of value. And thank you for the encouragement. When one has been on a ten + day roller coaster ride of unknown time and destination it helps to have the support that you have all given to me. There are two excellent equine hospitals less than two hours away, but I felt that the trip would be hard on Lance when he is so weak and also that he would be more comfortable at home if I can continue to provide care. A good friend of mine comes by at least once or twice a day to help me size things up and lend a hand (she kept her cell phone by her bed in case I would need her anytime last night) since I am not functioning the best, and my Vet. has been by many times and has given me his cell phone number for emergencies. Yes, Dr. O, Lance has been grazing out in the sun. I should have thought about that since I've had that experience myself. I think that Lance's pink skin (he doesn't have too much of that) is perhaps sun burned. I thought his pink snip ready to erupt in sores because it is swollen, but now I think that it is sun burned. I put the ice wraps on his legs for 45 minutes at 3:30 AM, and this morning the swelling in his fetlocks is a little bit less, so I plan to repeat that off and on today. No fever, and he has not been acting aggressive or nasty toward me since the brushing but has been acting "studdish." No signs of laminitis so these things are good so far today. The sores on his feet look sufficiently better this morning under all of the Desitin so I am not going to do anything to them, which will make Lance happy. So far I haven't looked in his mouth today. One thing that I am worried about is that yesterday and last night he didn't drink enough water, especially for a hot day. This happened the other day that he was off the Banamine as well, so I will be watching this closely. Thank you! Thank you all so very much. Vicki |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 9:22 am: Vicki...as for the sunburn for the first time since I have owned Demetrius he too developed what looked like small lesions on his nose one day. Since it was only on his snip I deduced it was sunburn and within a day it was already peeling. I have since used Desitin daily and no more events on the nose. When we go here what I didn't take into account was all the sun in the pasture (they won't stand in the shelter and otherwise there was no shade) could possibly burn the skin under his white hair located under his fetlocks above the coronary band and only on the backs, pink and black skin (he has both) one day they were red and inflammed and I thought potentially scratches however the next day they peeled just like his nose. I used to keep them shaven and must have taken away one of his own protection methods...thicker hair. I now desitin them as well....no more problems! We moved to a new barn where his paddock off the back of his stall has shade of trees and sun so I will continue until the suns strength diminishes this fall. Good luck. You are doing a wonderful job! I know it's hard not having answers and only being able to treat symptoms but keep it up and hopefully it soon will be behind you both!Nose kisses for Lance. v/r Corinne |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 8:42 pm: Lance up-date:Thanks, Corrine. I slathered all of the sensitive, light colored spots in Desitin and gave Lance lots of kisses. I also went to the store and bought all of the Desitin that was on the shelf! I did some icing a few times with leg wraps that have ice cells in them. For whatever reason, there has finally again been some reduction in the swelling of the fetlocks in his rear legs though they are not yet normal. The bulges at the tops of his hooves seem to have reduced somewhat, as horizontal lines and fever marks are being laid down on the horn of the hoof. There is still bulging though, especially toward the back of all of the feet. The front soles show what looks like a greatly increased amount of bruising and I don't know if that is from the fever and inflammation or in response to tests by my Veterinarian looking for sensitivity in the front feet. Lance has not erupted in any new sores today though there is one that had begun yesterday, which may or may not come to fruition. His demeanor has improved and he drank plenty of water today, which was one of my main worries. He has had no fever. One interesting development is that Lance's mane, tail and hair seem to have ceased falling out. Yesterday the hair was falling off of him like a snowstorm although he had been thoroughly brushed each day. And yesterday it was falling off one side of his barrel when the day before it was falling off all over from every inch of his body. Just running your hand over him or leaning against him resulted in lots of hair falling out. It is amazing how quickly things can change for the better or the worse. No additional test results as of yet. Thanks again Dr. O, and all of you who have responded with suggestions and encouragement. Vicki |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 10:34 pm: Vicki good to hear Lance has taken a turn for the better and will pray he continues to go that route!Demetrius sheds practically year round...always has. And he always gets a good bill of health...Small tiny hairs in hot months, long hairs when his winter coat sheds. He is ultra sensitive to everything! Keep up the good work and as always...keep us updated! Have a better night tonight! v/r Corinne |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 11:45 pm: How interesting that Demetrius and Lance are both from the Bask lines and have sensitive skin. Lance is "pure Polish" and out of Aladdinn. His skin is definitely ultra-sensitive and he has had every skin malady in the book more than once (with "scratches" being chronic some years). He sheds year-round and never grows a proper winter coat, so must be blanketed in times of marginal weather even though we live in Florida -- he shivers if it is cold, wet, windy. He had been shedding longer hairs when in the North Carolina mountains this summer, then both lengths upon return to Florida until all became very short. This illness though, has been an entirely different matter. As much hair as he has DrOpped this week, it is amazing that he isn't bare- skinned all over, but I think that it is growing back in as it DrOps out. Lance seems fine tonight and I hope and pray for no severe complications as he goes through the recovery process. This 17-year old boy has been a hardy and stoic guy who for the most part has been extremely healthy, not given to colic problems or anything serious. He was badly injured by a mare who tried to kill him, and once sustained an ulceration to his cornea due to an injury. Illnesses have not been a problem for him except when we go on long hauls and mingle with many horses. If he recovers from this, I am not apt to haul him more than a few hours from home for rides and camping in the future. As much fun as we have had, it is not worth the risk of losing him or having him suffer. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 - 12:25 am: Hi again Vickie. I'm glad there's been an up-swing for Lance. Don't be too surprised if there is another "down-swing or two" but I'm willing to be the "ups" will out do the "downs" and Lance will be fine. Somehow I missed that Lance was an Arab. I've found Arabs in general to be tougher than a lot of other breeds. I would still love to know what has caused all this. Hope you're doing better all so! |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 - 7:54 am: Vicki I gather that as you suspect (gut instinct is a very powerful tool when it comes to medicine) something else is going on, but with illness I bet his skin changes are amplified! You made me laugh when you said he gets cold quickly and has to wear blankets when others don't. My horse is quick to shiver when the temps DrOp and he is waiting at the gate to come in in any inclement weather and really really is happy if put back in his stall...I mean he will come in circle, lie down and eat while lying as if in hog heaven. I have never seen a horse so content in his stall....Anyway, Yes they are hardy these Arabians (mint is Polish and Krabbit (Sp)and even with small injuries etc seem to bound back quickly with no ill effects (knock on wood). They have good feet, and lots of endurance that will undoubtedly help aide in the recovery process. Sorry you are going through this. Just got the mail...Demetrius sent me home with a carrot for Lance but I told him they don't mail well. Have a great day! v/r Corinne |
| Member: rtrotter |
Posted on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 - 9:57 am: Hello all,For those of you cost conscious horse owners that use Desitin a lot. You might want to try the generic brands available to you, I found a CVS( national pharmacy) diaper rash ointment with a higher concentration of zinc oxide, that actually works better than the Desitin. It came in a larger container (tube) and was almost half the price. Rachelle |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 - 3:24 pm: Thanks for the valuable suggestion about the generic Desitin, Rachelle. I will follow through with this.Sara and Corinne, You make astute observations. Lance has continued to make a bit more progress so far today but he does have blisters on his tongue again, although the other mouth sores are healing. Interesting that while some of the newer ones are nearly gone, one of the earliest original and worst is not totally cleared up. He still has some serum oozing out below his fetlocks, but the sores are small now and the fetlocks are less swollen than they have been since this began. The appearance inside of his nostrils (and how he is holding them) has vastly improved. He is not spending as much time swallowing even when not eating as he was before. Some of the hoof bulging is gone, but not all, especially near the heel bulbs. Lance is still going through the process toward normalcy and I can give the best supportive and preventative treatment possible, but this will still take the time that it will take. And complications are always a possibility when a horse has been so ill. I will need to examine all of the possibilities about how and why Lance contracted this illness. Are some of the things that have been going on for him part of a bigger health picture or separate random events? Does his past of skin problems at times indicate an immune system problem? Does how easily his hair wears off say anything about his overall health? He has lost some muscle and top line and has become a hard instead of easy keeper over the past several months. Is there any reason beyond not enough intake with an increased work load that caused the weight loss? If he doesn't pick up with all the grass, nutrition and senior feed I am giving him, something else is wrong too. I will have to look at everything to try to ensure that I am giving him the best and most proper care. With his huge heart to please, I could be asking more of him than is reasonable. I was really tired when I did my post last night and I see that I was trying to convince myself that he will be just fine as soon as this current problem clears up, and I hope he will, but cannot yet know that for sure. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 - 12:59 pm: Good news. Lance's tests came back negative for Piroplasmosis (that was one I was worried about because he had strong symptoms and a positive could have meant euthanasia or lifetime quarantine) and also Vesicular Stomatitis.Still haven't heard about the EVA (this should have come back more than a week ago so the clinic will follow up on it) or the Ehrlichia that went to special labs. Lance is continuing to do better and is showing no signs of tender-footedness. The swelling in the fetlocks has improved significantly. There is still some bulging of the hooves at the rear tops. One of the worst original sores in his mouth is nearly cleared up. The newer sores healed faster than this one did. I have continued to put the ice wraps on his legs/feet to help discourage laminitis and reduce swelling. He needs to get his blood rechecked in 3 weeks to ensure that everything is continuing to regenerate. Meanwhile, I am to continue the Red Cell and have a few more days of Doxycycline to administer. I asked about whether anything needs to be retested because perhaps it was not taken at the right time and my veterinarian doesn't think so --due to what the titers said. He is extremely stumped about this entire scenario. Thanks again to Dr. O and everyone who helped me cope with this mystery. If we get any more answers, I will post them. Vicki |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 - 2:50 pm: Hi Vickie, I'm glad you and Lance are doing better.I had to totally empty my office due to some remodeling we are doing and while sorting and tossing I came across notes I had kept when I had several horses with unexplained symptoms. The symptoms sound amazingly like Lance's symptoms: fever, legs swelling, laminitis. I didn't mention any sores in the mouth or elsewhere, but other than that they are the same symptoms. One of the horses exhibited all the symptoms, and others some but not all. A two year old had her fever up to 104, a couple of the horses never had a fever. Because the vet was stumped, we finally decided it was a reaction to Hoary allesium as I found a plant in one of the fields that certainly appeared to be that plant. Blood work came back negative for anything of note. I didn't keep complete records on their blood work of medicines given, although our vet would have that still. All of my horses recovered with not ill effects. Two of them took a long time to recover and took a lot of care, but did recover. The worst affected horse had his legs so swollen he was developing cracks that oozed and bled. I do recall that aside from the exact meds given, the horses were treated as you are treating Lance. One horse did develop laminits, and was treated for that. I ride that horse today, although I do have to be careful about her shoeing/trimming schedule. I don't know for sure if what this horses had was the hoary alysium reaction or something else. The main point is that they all recovered, even though on two of the worst cases thier condition was pretty severe for awhile. One of the horses, the worst case, even lost all the hair on one side of his neck, which was replaced with darker, very fine hair. A year later his hair coat appeared totally normal. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 - 5:00 pm: Test results have all been negative so this is still a mystery. Thanks, Sara for this interesting information. Lance is better in that the leg swelling has nearly disappeared as have some of the other problems. He still has some body sores and oozing lower leg/foot sores. Now the hair is heavily falling out below his fetlocks. I quit strapping the ice boots on yesterday since the swelling looked so good, and now I am worried that horizontal cracks may be developing just below the Coronet bands, which appear somewhat swollen. Not yet received -- results for the test for excess selenium (Vit. E level was okay) that I requested since some weeds (and alfalfa) are selenium up-takers when stressed. I had also asked my Vet to check for excess nitrates in Lance's system (pigweed) but I don't think he figured out how to do that. I had also wormed with Quest on August 11, two days after getting home. The morning that this problem presented (later afternoon) I had also give Lance an IM Adequan shot (has been getting that for 2 1/2 years). My horses are all overdue for tapeworm treatment, and now I am afraid about giving Lance anything. |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 - 5:22 pm: Vicki, does your vet know you wormed him with Quest? My vet told me that he's steering away from Quest due to reactions, I have no idea what the reactions were or how fast they came about... but just thought I'd point it out. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 - 7:11 pm: Thanks, Aileen -- I think that I told him this and I know that another Veterinarian from this same office who used to work there was wary about Quest for some horses, as others are. It was 13 days after worming that the problem arose. I have wondered if the combination of eating some toxic things in NC and then oak leaves and who knows what after we got home (in spite of plenty of grass -- I notice that horses who are not feeling well seem to eat things that they normally would not as though they are trying to fix themselves) could have been a problem such as Ivermectin after eating Nightshade. I have found Quest to be a very effective wormer, and it is also possible that Lance had a very great worm load due to all of the camping and being at boarding facilities. My Vet doesn't seem to be worried about worming and in fact told me about a week ago that I could go ahead and worm for tapeworms, but I haven't been comfortable doing that as my gut tells me that it could cause additional overload to his system. I read that there is a class of wormers that can cause anemia, though I don't believe Quest is in the class that was named. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 - 8:03 pm: Symptoms of moxidectin toxicity are neurological not any of the symptoms described above. For more on the use of this safe and effective product can be found at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Dewormers (Anthelminics) » Quest (moxidectin).It should be noted that such episodes of fever and other symptoms of systemic infection are common in horses and often go undiagnosed but again I would point out that most serological (blood) tests do not indicatme infection by a specific organism until 3 to 4 weeks after the infection started because of the delay in antibody production. DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 - 9:13 pm: Thanks, Dr. O -- I am getting Lance's blood tested again in two weeks or less and will discuss this with my Veterinarian. Meanwhile, if all of these sores increase rather than beginning to clear up I will talk to him about whether more antibiotics are needed. On the bright side, Lance is feeling better and more energetic. Do you think that it is safe to deworm for tapes or should I wait a while? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 6:59 am: As tapes have nothing to do with this situation I would wait. For more on taking care of hot swollen legs see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Leg Swellings » Hot & Painful Legs.DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 11:16 am: This morning his left rear hock is blown up and hot. A few inches above it there is a new sore that had oozed hard, amber-colored discharge (took the hair off below it).I iced the hock area (hair now falling out more readily in this area) and other leg/foot areas as well while I was at it. I put a call into my Veterinarian to see whether he thinks that we should re-check blood now instead of waiting a couple of weeks. Last antibiotic was given Sunday morning and I hope that this is not the beginning of a whole new round of swellings and sores. The other sore areas on the feet/lower legs are looking better but have generally left behind pink, inflamed-looking skin that needs to be protected from sunburn. Lance generally acts like he is feeling okay but as has been the case much of the time since this began, he has a lot of continual gut noises and is also "DrOpping down" a great deal more than is usual for him. Vicki |
| Member: nadia |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 11:46 am: This doesn't explain all of the symptoms, but maybe some?https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/5213.html |
| Member: nadia |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 11:48 am: I meant to refer to the excess selenium. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 2:57 pm: Meant to thank you, Dr. O, for your opinion about the tapeworms. I am glad that I didn't go ahead and do it and then have the latest swelling happen or I would be blaming myself. Thank you too, Nadia. Lance has most but not all of the symptoms for excess selenium and also for ingestion of the cattle feed ingredient that is found in the selenium excess section. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 8:13 pm: Lance is no better and no worse this evening. My Vet is coming tomorrow to examine him and draw some blood. It is breaking my heart that his eye looks duller today, but I guess that I must be thankful that he is no worse. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 10:26 pm: Vicki, I sure hope your vet gets this figured out, It all seems so strange. Is he in a stall now or is he turned out sometimes? What about banamine is he off that now? I would ask my vet about it if he is, seems it could help him feel better.I sure hope Lance turns around soon and you both can get some rest. Prayers for Lances recovery. |
| Member: alisa |
Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 11:42 pm: Dear Vicki,My heart goes out to you and Lance. I have been following this post and re-read the whole thing before writing. These are the things I believe: Lance is getting better. You have been extraordinary in your care - the enormous amount of effort and also the clear intelligence and experience you have shown throughout this whole episode. I know that your life is on hold while you work to help Lance, I think that is true for many of us who are struggling with on-going and complicated horse care. One last thing: You are the best helper Lance could hope for. Good Luck and I will pray for a fast recovery! |
| Member: paardex |
Posted on Friday, Sep 12, 2008 - 4:07 am: It is a nightmare to see one of our animals suffering especially those longtime friends, and not knowing what it is and if you are doing all that is possible. It must eat you up seeing him change Vicki.You HAVE done all you can and he has come so far I trust he will get better. Thinking of you Jos |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Sep 12, 2008 - 7:51 am: Vicki, one of the most important ways to monitor your horse's progress to see if he is getting better or worse is to keep a diary of his vital signs. For more on this see, Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Taking Temperature, Pulse, and Respiration. By correlating this with the leg swelling you can get a better idea of the significance of this development.DrO |
| Member: lilo |
Posted on Friday, Sep 12, 2008 - 9:37 am: Vicki - prayers and healing thoughts for Lance. This must be so draining on you - I hope your vet comes closer to a diagnosis today.Lilo |
| Member: annes |
Posted on Friday, Sep 12, 2008 - 2:53 pm: Vicki, I just read your posts and am so sorry to hear what Lance has been through. He is certainly a special and brave guy. I am thinking of you and sending healing prayers for Lance.Ann |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 13, 2008 - 12:13 pm: Relieved though still concerned. Dr. O, Lance continues to be fine with his vitals, but now in addition to the swollen hock, the fetlocks are swollen again so we have lost some ground there. His muzzle has broken out in lots of bumps that are turning into sores that are not serious, though numerous. His manure is not diarrhea but looser now than it has been, looks like he is not digesting too well. His appetite is good. Yesterday I took him up to the Veterinary clinic, which is only 20 minutes away to check his blood and get results while we waited. I was very relieved that his organ functions all remain in normal ranges, and his white cells were fine. His red blood cells are just a little low, so this is good news. I probably could have saved myself some money paying more attention to your advice and his vital signs alone (his gums now look the best they have with good color, no more sores and consistent rapid refill, temperature has been fine and respiration too), but I was very worried with a return of these symptoms that he may have been losing ground in other ways also, so the trip and tests did take away some of my biggest worries going into the weekend. My Vet. acknowledges that there are a lot of peculiar things going on but he doesn't know what is causing these strange phenomenon. There is one more type of tick-related test that had not yet been run for Ehrlichia, so another slide has been sent out for that and we have completed a course of Doxycycline. I am supposed to ice his legs with the wraps a couple of times daily and try turning Lance out with the others to see if the increased exercise improves the swelling situation. My other boys are not very peppy in this hot weather and Lance is accomplished at going off on his own if necessary to avoid conflict. So far, it hasn't helped though, and I think that the heat was a little worse in the fetlocks this morning, but I will stick with this program a little longer before pulling him back into the more controlled environment. Diane, except when stalled or tied in the barn aisle with leg wraps on, Lance has been able to come and go most of the time from a deeply bedded 24' x 12' stall to graze at will in a controlled area with plenty of grass but not enough open spaces where he can tear around too much. Yesterday when I opened a gate to empty my manure cart he shot out into the cow pasture and woods and ran off some extra energy for a few minutes. He refused to be caught or lured with treats (very strange) but when he had enough and saw that I was not following him any longer, he blasted back into his designated area. He was winded for quite a while after, which is such a foreign experience since everyone out on the trails admires his energy, strength and endurance. My Veterinarian wanted me to take Lance off the Banamine a week ago, and it seems like things are about the same now without it. I was instructed to give some if Lance's temperature exceeded 101, and that has not happened. If he was physically suffering, I certainly would also give him some, but that does not seem to be the case. Thank you all for your kind, encouraging and supportive words and prayers. Lance has been quite a tolerant, stoic, and good patient throughout this ordeal except for a couple of periods of grumpiness. He even jumped into my trailer yesterday when asked as though we were going on a marvelous adventure. Never will I forget all the times this dear boy has taken care of me, and the close partnership bond that we share. It is very hard when a horse appears to lose ground again after seeming to be doing better, and in this case that has happened twice. Throughout, we have been unable to take things a "day at a time," but rather a few hours at a time, so perhaps I will have more good news soon. This began 3 weeks ago tomorrow. Again, thank you all for your caring and sharing. You have been very helpful to me and Lance. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 13, 2008 - 5:05 pm: Vicki, glad to hear Lance isn't any worse anyway. Please keep us updated. I was VERY worried when we didn't hear from you on Fri. Kept checking for an update. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 13, 2008 - 8:03 pm: Thanks, Diane for checking and caring about my sweet Lance. It was well into the evening by the time that I finished my horse care last night and then friends showed up who came because they love Lance and wanted to help him, and though their caring was helpful and appreciated, I was really exhausted by the time that they left and it just got too late for me to post. Due to the lack of stability in his condition lasting for more than a few hours, one hesitates to say something has changed because as soon as I do, it soon seems to go in the opposite direction. Though Lance's leg swelling seemed a little worse this morning, it also seemed a little better by the end of today, though each time that I checked on him he was standing in one stall or another looking miserable due to the heat (very un-Lance-like) while the other boys were out grazing in the pasture. The sore that arrived at the same time that his left hock swelled up previously looked fairly inconsequential on its own, but is now a very hard lump and much larger underneath his skin. I am hoping that as it resolves, the swelling in the hock will as well. It seems like his entire system is really in overdrive right now (autoimmune?)and I hope that it will soon settle down. I gave my best to my three boys (the others have been so neglected) earlier this evening, and as I came down the hill a beautiful rainbow was in the east, along with heavy dark clouds that brought some additional, lovely rain to my farm. I have ceased hoping for a magic bullet or quick cure, but perhaps things will continue to improve for Lance. I hope that I can post good news in the hours ahead. Thanks again for caring. I would give anything for a good outcome for my dearest boy. Vicki |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 13, 2008 - 8:07 pm: Vicki, have quizzed everyone I can find about Lance and his illness? The range of symptoms have gotten everything from spider/snake bite to neck thread worms(new to me). There is a small posse in the NW and SW trying to help Lance. We may never come close But we all have/had that one special heart horse! |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 13, 2008 - 10:10 pm: Vicki, when my horses were affected by the hoary alysium there swelling would vary also. I would think they were over it and either legs would swell up again, or if only two legs had been affected, those two would get better and the other two, or one of them, would swell. And, it went on for at least several weeks. Is Lance on cortisone or what is he on now? You and Lance are in my heart and mind. Prayers and good luck. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 14, 2008 - 6:46 am: Vicki quite a few years ago my old girl got VERY sick, I had a long post in here about it. I thought she had Potomac horse fever, or salomenella nothing I would do seemed to help her, until she got so bad I locked her up. (I never put 2 and 2 together) The next year it happened again at about the same time, except I decided to lock her in a lot with no grass, weeds or anything, got some completely different hay, and no grain immediately and she was better the next day. Turned out it was black locust trees doing this to her...I just got lucky at the time by locking her up and switching hay....didn't realize it was the black locust doing this. She had been in this same pasture for 10 years with no problems.I wonder if you kept Lance off pasture, got some different hay it may tell you something. At least it would eliminate the possibility of some kind of weed in the hay or pasture, a cheap experiment of sorts. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 14, 2008 - 1:54 pm: Thank you all for trying to help! Cindy, I've got to look up the neck thread worms as that is a new one for me. Sara, Lance is not currently on any medications except Red Cell and it certainly did occur to me that some Bute might help with the swelling but Lance's system seems overloaded right now, which is perhaps why my Veterinarian wanted him off of the Banamine. Diane, that is interesting about the Black Locust. No doubt there are many growing plants that could cause problems. We have such an opportunity to learn from each other on this site, and also from Dr. O's great library of articles. I am almost afraid to say it, but Lance's leg swelling has been gradually improving for about the past 20 hours. And today I am getting signs that he is more his normal self again. Thank you for letting me know that toxic situations could result in a reappearance of abnormal swellings but that you still had a good outcome, Sara. Diane, if the recent progress does not continue I will try what you have suggested about taking him off the pasture. He does get seasonal sores at different times depending upon what is out there, especially as green acorns fall as they have been doing recently. And I know that since he returned home he ingested oak leaves and woodbine (that gave hives to the horse of a friend of mine) even though he had plenty of grass available. I have found that when horses are feeling unwell they will eat things that they would not otherwise care to touch. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2008 - 6:12 pm: The mystery continues with some good news but remaining concerns. Last Ehrlichia test was negative. I have decreased my icing/hosing of the legs down to once daily starting yesterday, and have had good results rubbing with witch hazel onto his legs after the icing or hosing. Lance, who has always had strong endurance, continues to become very easily winded. Though I am very grateful that the swelling has mostly left his legs, there still seems to be some unusual pockets of edema and skin inelasticity such as in the jowls, chest swelling, pocket of swelling at the top inside of the right front leg where he previously had that very weird type of sore during the course of his problem. The swelling in his left hock has subsided, but the sore, which seemed inconsequential, has not healed and that area is still somewhat swollen. Lance got a new sore next to his sheath which was first a very hard sore that evolved into a mushy, large swelling. It has a central skin opening that makes me think that it was caused by an insect bite. He also has a sore on the rear of his right front foot and a bad sore on his left hind end, which to me appears to be a summer sore. It seems as though his body is mounting a huge reaction to every little thing, which has sometimes happened in the past. Is it possible that he is having some kind of an autoimmune response? Is there something wrong with his thyroid? There seems to be a lot of muscle wasting that has happened and I am very concerned about him being so easily winded. Vitals are good. Grateful that we have not gone backward the past six days, but still concerned. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2008 - 9:37 pm: Vicki it sounds as if he is improving....slowly but surely. It is quite a puzzle, that hopefully will be solved. What does your vet think the problem is? |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2008 - 10:48 pm: I think that when the immune system gets overloaded, if that is the right term, it starts responding to everything. We have one horse that is sensitive to most fly sprays. Once hives break out, it seems like any little things will cause them to re-appear.Since Lance has been ill for a while, has had fever and a lot of other things he's been fighting off, and hasn't been doing anything physical for a while, I don't find it odd that he gets out of breath easily. I would think that as he improves, and then moves around more, his breathing would improve. I think loss of muscle tone isn't unexpected either. Muscle tone is rapidily lost when muscles are unused. I'm assuming loss of tone is what you are talking about. If you mean more "withering away" then that would be different. I'm also wondering if there hasn't been so much going on with Lance that you are getting to the point where you keep seeing things even when they aren't really there, or are a normal reaction to the situation. I'm not being critical; I'm just going by my own experiences. When tending to a seriously ill human or animal, after awhile I start to notice every little thing whether it's really a problem or not. Sometimes I've forgotten what was there before the person/animal got sick; and sometimes I'm not thinking rationally anymore and forget logical reasons for things being the way they are. I've been traveling all day and am tired so this may not be making much sense or coming across right. Hopefully you're not so tired that you're unable to understand the point. Take care. |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 9:50 am: Vickie, do you have a local university with a reputable equine hospital nearby? I wonder if it isn't time to take Lance for a second (or third?) opinion to see what's going on. If nothing else, it may confirm that you're doing everything you need to do and put your mind to rest. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 9:52 am: Vicki, the symptoms you have discussed could be consistent but not highly suggestive of a autoimmune disease of the skin. For instance the fact the horse is improving but not being treated for a autoimmune condition. For more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Autoimmune Skin Disorders: Bullous and Pemphigus.DrO |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 6:12 pm: Continued prayers for Lance! Demetrius is sending over some of his Chicken soup! |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 11:07 pm: Dr. O, Do horses get Graves' disease? I was surprised to read that dogs do. Must be thankful for no worsening overall for Lance. The sores are being stubborn to heal, with more swelling around them than would be normal. Coronet bands seem a little swollen but leg swelling continues to be much better and can now clearly see the veins/arteries of the legs, which had been absent for a long time. Diane, my veterinarian doesn't know what to think. Fran, I will take Lance to the University of Florida Veterinary School if he does not continue to steadily improve. I talked to my Veterinarian about the idea and he said he doesn't know what good it would do since he has already tested for everything, but if we have no answers there must be some other possibilities? Maybe it would be helpful to call the Vet school up in Knoxville, which is where folks in North Carolina take their horses when such care is needed. Lance had been in NC and Virginia before he got so sick. Sara, I'm sure you are right about Lance's system right now. I need to be more patient. It does become somewhat difficult to monitor conditions when checking several times daily, especially when so many changes have taken place over short periods of time as has been the case with Lance. Sometimes I start to think he looks better than he does because that is what I want to see. A neighbor horse-owner friend of mine comes over for reality checks and helps me determine just how much better or worse he is doing. If she had not witnessed firsthand many of the strange things that have gone on I would have had a hard time believing my own eyes. I had read all of those articles, Dr. O and some things did apply and what made me wonder about autoimmune is his past off and on history of various skin conditions, unexplained anemia and fatigue a few years ago (but that responded to several weeks of Red Cell and he was then fine). He never grows a proper winter coat so must be blanketed some days to prevent shivering. His hair has always been very easily rubbed out by the least little thing, but in the past months this has been much worse. His hair wore off in places from simply leading him in a halter each day, also where my Parelli rope hung down and touched the side of his neck and after just one use of a leather breast collar. Bridle, saddle pad, everything took his hair off. Also, he became a hard keeper, though this summer he had plenty of energy and performed very well. When sick, there were times that his pulse seemed to pound very hard and for several minutes in unusual locations. My Veterinarian says his heart sounds fine though. Lance would love that chicken soup, Corinne, and probably it is a good sign that he has never lost his appetite. When he was the sickest he was eating everything in sight faster than he normally would have, as though his life depended upon it, including stuff he should not have been eating though he always had plenty of grass or lovely hay. He has actually gained a little weight recently but I have been giving him plenty of senior feed, some O & A and T & A, timothy plus all the grass he can eat, and no work. While my other horses are beginning to get slightly thicker coats, Lance has continued to DrOp lots of hair. As much as he has lost since he got sick makes me fear he will become naked. It is especially thin in some areas. Thank you all for your continuing help, encouragement and concern. I iced legs and feet just once today and rubbed some areas twice with witch hazel. I am trying to decide when it is safe to stop doing this since he re-swelled badly twice before after showing improvement. I think the little puffiness that is now present in his fetlocks is perhaps normal slight stocking up because he isn't moving around too much. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 11:46 pm: I'm so glad you have a friend to help you. I think your idea of taking him to a clinic is a good one personally. The loosing of the hair and being so sensitive in general isn't normal and this is when he is well, if I am reading this right. Perhaps it would be an idea to at least call and talk with someone at the clinic. The fact he is eating, and has continued to eat throughout his ordeal is good. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 12:25 pm: His various sores do not look as angry or swollen today and I am pleased with how his legs look with no extraordinary heat in any areas. Due to this, I have not yet done any icing or witch hazel today but will monitor. After weighing him more carefully it appears that he weighs the same as he did on the first day that he presented with symptoms in spite of his voracious appetite while ill, so he sure has burned a lot of fuel during this illness, but thank goodness he did not lose any more. If I don't see steady improvement all around I will take him to UF. I see that there is something called a "Coombe's test" to check for autoimmune conditions. And I guess that I have to consider encysted strongyls as much as he has traveled or camped where large numbers of horses had been present for six months of this year. Thanks, Sara. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 12:50 pm: I doubt that encysted strongyls would cause all the problems he's been having. Also, our show horses travel all over the place and are housed in fair/show ground stables where all kinds of horses have been kept. We've never had a problem, although I know they are more prevelant in some areas than others. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 2:45 pm: You are right, Sara. I was mainly thinking about the parasites with regard to the weight problem situation. This boy used to be an easy keeper on Triple Crown Lite. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 3:29 pm: With all the poor guy has had going on, I'm amazed he hasn't lost a lot of weight. The fact he has continued to eat is really good. I sure hope you are able to figure out what is going on with him; it's very perplexing and would certainly be educational for us all, to say nothing of a relief for you. My guess is that he has more than one "thing" going on, which is one reason it's been so hard to diagnose. Lance is very lucky he has such a caring person to help him. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 8:40 pm: Sara, I agree with you that there is more to this than meets the eye. I am almost afraid to say it because when I did before we went backward, but my dearly beloved Lance seems to be doing better.Swelling is better as are the sores. The coronet bands in his rear feet continue to look kind of odd. Sort of swollen but also like they are part of the hoof and sort of stretched downward, rather than above the hoof if that makes sense. His appetite is good but not voracious as it was before. I so want him to be on the road toward recovery. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Sep 22, 2008 - 8:29 am: I have never seen a report of immune mediated hyperthyroidism (Graves Disease) in horses. I do agree that when baffled with a serious problem it is time to have a second opinion.DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Sep 22, 2008 - 11:14 am: Thanks, Dr. O. Lance seems to be doing better and now I must see a return of proper weight, energy and hair growth. He did a little canter up to the barn this morning and seemed to recover more quickly but it is also less hot and he didn't travel that far. But when I remind myself of how winded he was from simply walking a short distance not very long ago, this probably is a major improvement. I am daring to again be optimistic that he will recover but certainly would like to get to the bottom of this to have a better understanding of him and for the benefit of others. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 3:54 pm: Update and questions. I am very happy to report that two weeks have now passed with no further strange situations presenting. Lance's legs and feet look normal (except for the lines left behind on his hooves, which I know will grow out in time). Lance has grown a lot of hair back (though still shedding too) and the strange pink spot that had appeared on the lower area of the cannon bone portion of the most swollen hind leg the day his hind legs blew up, disappeared under layers of new hair. My Veterinarian has instructed me to give Lance two more weeks off, finish using what remains in the jug of Red Cell and then stop giving it. In a couple of weeks from now, if Lance is still doing well, I can begin cautiously asking him to do some work. In about a month we are due for a regular farm call and at that time will do another CBC and determine whether any other testing is indicated. All of my boys are due for Quest the first week of November and I have put off treating for tape worms, which will soon be a year since this was last done. Though Lance has gained some weight back, I don't know whether he would still be considered "debilitated." Should I use the Quest or something else, and what about when it is safe to do the tapeworm treatment? Also, he was due for his monthly Adequan shot Sept. 24 but I did not give it. Lance had received an Adequan injection the morning that his legs blew up later that day and he developed the fever. My Vet said that the Adequan had nothing to do with what happened. Should I begin the Adequan again or wait? Lance has been on it with good results for 2 1/2 years. I am so happy that he seems to be doing well, but am terrified about potentially doing anything that could set him back. Thanks for your invaluable help and support. |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 6:30 pm: Vickie, very delighted that things are so much better! When they are hurt and sick moms don't get rest and I know this has been a long haul for both of you.Looking forward to answers to your questions, with horses one is forever learning "just in case"!Tell Lance he is a very strong boy then give him a hug! |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 11:18 pm: Way to go Lance...Your Mom has been very worried about you and has done everything she can to ensure you get well...now you can continue to do your part and get a little better and stronger each day...(I know you can't control the shedding, Demetrius sheds all year! It's an Arab thing. LOL)Corinne |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 6:51 am: Vicki, so glad to hear Lance is recovering! My horses are shedding too, even tho there winter coats are half there already. |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 7:44 am: Very glad to hear Lance is improving. Keeping my fingers crossed that he will soon be back at 100%. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 8:48 am: Hello Vicki,These are all questions you must decide with your veterinarian. I agree the Adequan in unlikely a cause. You can read about the toxicity of moxidectin and praziquantel in the Treatments and Medications for Horses » Dewormers (Anthelminics). In general I do put off routine procedures until a horse that has been sick is fully recovered. DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 2:36 pm: Thanks, Dr. O. My Veterinarian said that it was okay to worm Lance for the tapeworms even when he was still quite ill, and though I respect him a lot I have delayed doing so as I had to follow my gut instincts, which decision you reinforced earlier in this thread.What I will do is run fecals on the boys when it is time for their next regular de-worming, and reconsider Lance's condition at that time and before worming or vaccinating. When there is a day that I can watch him closely, I will give him an Adequan shot. Not only is Lance losing a lot of half-inch long hair (as new grows in), but when curried a huge amount of small pieces of black skin (a few with hairs attached) are falling off, which irregularly shaped pieces are generally from a sixteenth to a quarter of an inch in size. I think that these pieces would continue to come off as long as I would brush. Also, twice in the past month he has grown what my farrier calls "defensive tissue" on his soles at the white line of the toe and extending forward into where he has had long-standing cracks in his front toes. I had never seen him do this before. There must be a lot of energy going into Lance trying to heal himself right now. Thank you all for your help and support. I will let you know what happens as this progresses toward a hopefully happy ending with me riding my joyful boy down the trails again. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 1:38 pm: Three weeks have passed since there was any sign of swelling to Lance's feet and today he had his feet trimmed again. For me, it was a shock to see the bloody looking remnants of bruising inside of Lance's right front foot as it is now growing out. Mostly, appearing with the trimming, next to the frog, it looks like a piece of raw meat on a bone. My farrier said not to be alarmed and that this may well show up on Lance's other feet as this progresses. But he said not to worry as it relates to when he was sick and Lance is not sore on account of it nor will it effect his ability to be out on the trails if he gets well enough otherwise. It will be six more days before I can ask him to try to do any work. |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 7:41 pm: Glad to hear it progressing so well! For other reasons ,my mare had a similar area on her hoof it is a nasty sight but it did go away eventually!If you get the chance go to fugly horse ,check out the horse stuck in the tree.I would bring the pic here but don't have that skill, sorry! My friend said if you have horses the chant goes "This is a Test" repeat "This is a Test"! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 7:42 pm: UGGHH vicki that sounds yucky! Glad Lance is doing well otherwise and you will soon be riding off into the sunset . What a strange thing this has been, nobody has any idea what it was???? The outcome was good anyway, thanks to your diligent care I'm sure! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 6:05 am: A piece of raw meat on a bone next to the frog? Can you post a well lit image of this Vicki. It is not really consistent with your horses past illness in my opinion.DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 6:45 pm: Thanks for the good wishes, Cindy and Diane. Lance has yet to be diagnosed and my Veterinarian said that he has never done so much testing and been unable to reach a diagnosis. Dr. O, I've seen spots of bruising on horses' feet over the years but this looked different than anything I've ever seen. To tell you the truth, when my farrier showed it to me I felt like passing out and I'm not overly squeamish. The area was fairly large and I am still wondering about it and whether it was an area of dried blood where there had been internal bleeding when Lance was anemic. I sincerely wish that I had taken and posted lots of pictures throughout this ordeal because overall, it has been something that my Vet and the Florida Agricultural Vet have never seen before. If I had a clue how to do pictures, I would have some of my boy in costume on my profile, and my schedule is not conducive to working on it this week, but I will see what I can do. (The only pictures taken when Lance was so sick were of the sores in Lance's mouth, which were transmitted to the State Vet by my Vet.). There was a point in time during this illness when large areas of what appeared as bruising appeared on Lance's soles, which eventually faded away. Now this has shown up. My farrier says it is a result of the illness going to his feet. Lance had periods of swelling in the soft tissue of his feet including abnormal bulging of his hooves when he was so ill. At times his feet were hot but he was never lame. I will keep you informed as this progresses. On Saturday when I led Lance a short distance uphill he was breathing hard, but recovered quickly. When he was extremely sick he was very quickly winded and did not recover for quite some time. This is all so foreign to me with this horse as he has never been easily winded, even under the most challenging of conditions. |
| Member: frances |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 7:06 am: It all sounds so strange, Vicki. Very glad to hear that overall he seems to be recovering. Good luck in getting him 100% very soon. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 7:53 am: Would it be possible to post a image of the odd spot on the foot Vicki?DrO |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 3:06 pm: Dr. O, I looked at it this morning (didn't have my camera) and the size has greatly reduced so that it looks more like normal bruising, though it still looks somehow deeper and not superficial. It is now crisply triangular and located touching the edge of the frog. The color is bluish red. I don't know how to do photos on the computer. If I can get anyone to help me I will try to comply with your request and will be ready with a camera when the farrier trims in the future and will ask them to assist me if any new areas appear as was suggested may happen. Interestingly, the foot that this odd kind of bruising appeared within is also the foot that laid down a great deal of "defensive tissue" again since the 3-week prior trim, in the area of the white line and extending forward into the crack in the front middle of the toe (both front feet have done this but very pronounced on this foot this trim). |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 11:58 am: Dr. O, I am posting to up-date about the foot described in my most recent prior post. The red-blue gradually changed shape and size, becoming more elongated as it moved lower on the foot (more toward the toe but still near the frog).On the opposite side of the foot and frog from the remaining bruising, some long cracks developed on the sole and next to that then laid down a lot of extra tissue (my farrier has not seen it but when I spoke to his wife she described it as "false sole"). The side opposite from the remaining bruise-like area actually looked the worst and most bloody when trimmed, but cleared more quickly. This area now looks kind of like someone applied a patch to that side of the foot, next to where it cracked. The bruise-like area present the longest now seems to be more normal. When Lance was sicker and his feet were reacting, one foot was effected somewhat less than the others and currently the sole of that foot looks the most normal. All of the other three have grown a lot of sole, which appears somewhat protruding, with the frog seeming to have sunken into the foot and most especially toward the toe end where the front 3/4 inch or so of the frog is the most sunken and actually looks recessed. Overall, no frog is touching the ground. As to general condition, the past few days Lance's energy level seems more normal. He appears to be moving normally and feeling okay. He is still shedding quite a bit. Two sores on his body are still resolving and have gone through a somewhat peculiar process. Has anyone experienced this type of situation with their horse's soles and frogs? Do you think that this is the result of an abnormal amount of false sole growth? I am sorry that I have not been able to post photos. I have no one to help me take them (my husband is recovering from hand surgery) and I don't know how to post them, but maybe I can get some help this week from a friend. I will try. |
| Member: paintmom |
Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 2:03 pm: Vicki, wow, you have been through a lot and still are going through it. With your reply's on my post and you say you had one on Lance I had to come read it. I am so sorry that both of you are going through this. I am send many healing prayers to Lance and prayers to you to stay strong and get through this. Keep strong! Tammy |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 3:24 pm: Hi vicki SHEWW Lance has had it all. Is he sore on his hooves at all or was he ever sore? What you describe sounds similar to when Hank foundered last year. It was weird how his frog sunk in. he had deep crevices in his sole also. I thought it was false sole also, and to this day I'm not sure if it was or not. When I asked Dr.O. he said false soles normally come of in one chunk.In this post... 5th post from bottom I have shots of his sole and it's progression...I never did get a good pic of those crevices in it. https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/196825.html The recessed frog bothered me too, and the "DrOpped" sole. Glad Lance is coming along otherwise!!! |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 4:43 pm: WOW, Diane -- Thanks for pointing this out to me. There are certainly similarities with what I am seeing now, but with Lance the appearance is actually even much more pronounced, at least to the naked eye as compared to your photos.With the front foot described by me in such detail, it certainly does appear that the area which looks like a "patch" will likely come off in one piece. While extremely ill and in the recovery period Lance never seemed tender-footed at all, of course there was quite a period when he received a lot of Banamine. He is a very stoic horse. There were times when there was heat in his feet and there was some limited bounding pulse in one of the front feet, which presented for just a few seconds at a time now and then, but was not prolonged. I have to review my records to see whether this is the foot that now is so weird, and I think that it is. I did front and back foot ice wraps and rear ice leg wraps over a long period of time, but the amount of time when he was kept confined and on his deep shavings was limited because that seemed to make his swelling worse. There certainly have been times during this illness when I wondered whether Lance did indeed have laminitis or founder, but neither my Veterinarian nor farrier have reached that conclusion so far, though we were ready for action if it progressed beyond the heat stage. Also, the way his sole looked on his right rear foot, which is the rear leg where the fetlock and cannon bone portion of his rear legs were most swollen from the onset, made me very afraid at one point that this entire hoof might come off. A piece of frog and sole has broken from that foot, (came off in the same piece) but not significant so far. When I first saw how his frog now looks I was afraid that it had died! Thanks for your wishes and prayers too, Tammy. Dr. O and the HA members have been a big help to me and a terrific source of comfort and support as Lance and I have been going through this process, as have other friends and family. Before this problem with Lance I thought that I had learned and been through a lot over the years with equine health issues, but this has been just truly unbelievable. I wish that I had more definitive answers so that all could learn more from this difficult experience. |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 12:04 pm: Vicki, such an on going education horses are, WoW!We have gone thru the ugly bruising you describe also the false soul but the rest is a big?? ! Prayers not just for Lance's recovery but resolution as to Why for your peace of mind! |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 12:43 pm: Thanks, Cindy. Tomorrow I plan to take him out for a ride from home with a neighbor friend and her horse who is a buddy of Lance's, so hope this will go well. |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 4:45 pm: Finger's crossed and prayers whispered to the winds ........ you and Lance ENJOY!
|
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 6:32 pm: Thanks, Cindy. I love this horse so much! |
| Member: lilo |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 9:37 am: Good luck, Vicki. You and Lance have been through a lot, so hopefully the path will be smoother ahead.Lilo |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 4:41 pm: Lance is back! Took him out for a good ride and at first he wanted to be a rocket ship, not having been out on the trails since the last week of July. He did great though, moved well, no tenderness even on hard surfaces. We walked, trotted, cantered (and pranced!) He would liked to have galloped but I knew that if I let him get out of control it could get interesting. He was grabbing the bit and not paying much attention at first.The situation with his hooves though, is continuing to evolve. He has what looks like some "bruising" on both front feet. On the left front the thick sole that may be "false sole" now seems to be growing over the area that appears bruised, with the point of the frog seeming to sink further. Now it seems as though there is a very excessive amount of outer hoof wall also, especially on the right rear, which is the foot that I was very worried about (was afraid that it might slough off) during the course of his illness. There is all of this outer wall that connects to this bulging looking sole (that at the same time seems to be sunken away from the outer wall), with the frog sunken more than anything else. There is no white line visible. Now the frog, which seemed hard and lifeless after it first sunk is beginning to shred off in some locations and looks kind of patchy and ragged. My friend who rode with me was glad that I did not show her Lance's feet before we went out because she thought that she would have been very worried wondering how he could manage to perform. With these feet, one really must wonder, what next? Does this still sound similar to your situation, Diane? It truly is a shame that I have not taken photos of all of the weird circumstances throughout, but it is hard when so much effort is going into getting the horse well again and trying to keep up with the other demands on one's time schedule. It really is a missed opportunity that I didn't manage to document the situation photographically. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 5:57 pm: Vicki SOOO good to hear Lance is back!!! It's such a good feeling it's almost overwhelming isn't it!!!His hooves sound VERY VERY familiar to what Hanks went through...I take pictures of everything...so of course I have pics of that too!!! https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=100_1364 .jpg https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=100_1464 .jpg https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=100_1319 .jpg I put them in my photo bucket album so I don't have my pics in your thread, and of course I put them in the wrong order, but if you click the links above that's the right order. |
| Member: paintmom |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 6:12 pm: I am so Happy for you and Lance!!
|
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 7:10 pm: Thanks, Diane, and Tammy.Diane, I am so grateful to you for your photos as I can see that indeed there are similarities with Hank's and Lance's problem. This has been such a long and difficult process and it was truly pure joy to ride Lance today, and to have to hold him back as he too was feeling the pure joy of what he loves to do. |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2008 - 7:16 am: Vicki - I'm very glad to hear that Lance is feeling so much better. You went through an awful time, but it's through your care, that he has recovered. Enjoy! |
| Member: frances |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2008 - 11:21 am: Fantastic Vicki! So pleased for you and Lance, and keeping fingers crossed that his hooves behave. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2008 - 12:27 pm: The foot situation with Lance is progressing. The excessive outer wall is beginning to break off, and so far it is in an orderly way. (How did excessive outer hoof wall occur? It seems like the central part of the foot sunk inward, and false sole filled in the normal concavity and beyond).Now the false sole is beginning to show some outer boundary lines, defining itself, which makes one think that perhaps it is beginning to retreat? I trailered Lance yesterday for a group ride. He was so happy he jumped into the trailer before I could get the divider out of the way. He did great in every way and was the most energetic horse on the ride. The excessive outer wall on both rear feet was cracking quite a lot after the ride, and since I don't own a nipper I had to hope for the best. It was neatly broken off this morning. Every day now I look at Lance's feet at least once. This is absolutely fascinating. Yesterday I showed a couple of them to a friend who is an Arabian breeder and trainer and who also boards horses. She has "never seen anything like it." (Just for the record, Lance is and has been "barefoot" for a long time). |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2008 - 1:09 am: The healing power of Mother Nature is amazing! Lance's joy in getting to GO! is so cool! Keep it up guys very impressive!
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2008 - 2:17 pm: Vicki when Hank had what I thought was false sole his hoof wall became very long and cracked when it either fell out of wore off (don't know which) It made some sort of sense as the false sole made it LOOK like he didn't have as much hoof wall. His feet really looked bad then. (worse than normal).So glad Lance is feeling better and "rarin'" to go, always a good sign! 
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| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2008 - 6:55 pm: Thanks, Cindy and Diane.Lance's feet look more dramatic than Hank's did in your photos, Diane, but enough similarity to make me feel that it is the same situation that is happening, so I do appreciate your input very much. It had not been long past a trim (less than 2 weeks) that the appearance of excessive hoof wall took place, which coincided with the strange "false sole" type of appearance, but where it JOINED the hoof wall it appeared recessed, which created a lot of wall sticking out well beyond where anything was attached. I know that this sounds so strange. And the recess of the frog, especially toward the point, is quite deep on some feet. The upper part of the hooves had bulged out (and the soft tissue of the feet swelled) when Lance was so sick, and most of that has now resolved, so there has been remodeling of the shape of the feet. I have to think that this is all a part of his attempt to heal himself |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 3:56 pm: As an update, Lance continues to do splendidly and tested negative again for EIA in June.Although my veterinarian expected that he would be negative, he had recently told me that we could not rule out EIA entirely because Lance had all of the symptoms (except for lack of appetite, which probably was avoided by the steroid shot and pain killers)when he was so sick last year. Last year when Lance had successfully recovered I put my Vet on the spot and asked him what his guess would be as to what had caused the problem. He stated that he had never run so many tests and been unable to make a diagnoses, but that his guess would be that it could have been Ehrlichiosis, in spite of the negative test, or an autoimmune condition. Another Veterinarian who I met through an appointment for my daughter's horse told me that there is a 36-hour testing window for Ehrlichiosis and that if we didn't test at the correct time we could have gotten a false negative. Whether this is accurate, I don't know. Lance seems to be in good health all around and after a year of having him on Triple Crown Senior feed, I have switched him to Low Starch. He has maintained his condition just fine, though is less like a rocket ship (I kind of miss that) on the lower-test stuff and has a go-with-the-flow outlook. He is moving great and we have had lots of fun together since his fortunate recovery. Thanks again to all of you, and Dr. O, for wishing us well, giving us information and encouragement when it was needed. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 7:10 pm: Go Lance Very glad to hear he is feeling well...what a puzzle.
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| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 7:56 pm: Thanks Diane.I wish that I had the answers for certain and I tried hard to get them, but on the other hand, having Lance well is what really matters the most. As you know, he means the world to me. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 10:06 pm: Delighted things are going so well.DrO |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 6:56 pm: Very good news, Vicki. Thanks for the update. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 9:01 pm: Thank you, Fran.I am delighted and privileged to give such happy results in this up-date. |
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