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  Discussion on Heaves and founder
Author Message
Member:
mleeb

Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 11:11 am:

My daughter's mare had an episode of founder 4 years ago, right after we bought her and put her out in the pasture. Since then it has been effectively managed with NO alfalfa, NO grain, and a rotation of 12 hours on/off the pasture during peak growing seasons. During her "off pasture" hours she gets a couple of flakes of grass hay from a small square, fed on the ground. She has no barn time, and we never feed with round bales. She's been turned out on pasture almost 100% for the last 8 weeks, and has no cough.

About 6 weeks ago I began to notice she was somewhat lethargic and just not herself. We took her on a trail ride - 12 miles - and while pokey for the first half of the day, she came around and did just fine. Since then she has been parked as she seemed to be getting worse. She doesn't stay with the herd, and when you catch her and lead her, she's barely walking, you need to drag her.

The vet was out 3 days ago, and based on the difficulty I had leading her to him, a thermometer, and a stethoscope to listen to her breathe, he diagnosed heaves. He prescribed Ventipulmin twice daily. As of yet, there is no improvement whatsoever.

So, here I am wondering what else we could be using in the event that I need to switch medications (and the articles I have read here seem to indicate that I do) that won't prompt an episode of founder/laminitis in a mare that is prone to that already. Is prednisolone a safe option under these circumstances? Also, if we do get an improvement, what exactly am I going to substitute for grass hay that won't cause founder? Soaked beet pulp, etc, is rarely an option in a Canadian winter. I noticed a bag of pellets at the feed store just recently that was labelled "starch reduced" -- is this an option?
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 11:50 am:

Michelle I feel for you I am stuck with Grasse[a half arab] with the same combination of problems and I can only say try to get her as slim as possible before winter so you can feed her at least a bit of alphalphapellets or beetpulp pellets or the starch reduced concentrate, that leaves you with the roughage problem and the fact they get bored. You could try very soaked hay but with Grasse that doesn't work.
Luckily I am in Normandy with even during the winter some grass so now I am trying to get her trough the winter with grass as roughage[and something to do]
Good luck
Jos
Member:
juliem

Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 12:30 pm:

Are you sure she isn't having an episode of laminitis? Years ago I had a horse founder and his early symptoms were only a reluctance to walk and when he did it was VERY slowly!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 12:44 pm:

I was wondering the same as Julie, I don't think heaves make them reluctant to walk. It sounds more like her feet. Could she have bruised them on the ride? Especially since it all came on right after the ride I would be suspicious of her hooves.

She may have been having a laminitis attack right before the ride and it put her over the edge?

Try padding her feet with something soft and supportive and see if she moves better, does she have shoes on?
Member:
mleeb

Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 1:45 pm:

Given her history of founder, I wouldn't rule it out 100%, but she is exhibiting none of the signs. She has no tenderness to pressure testing, no increased pulse, no sensitivity to crossing gravel and stones, and does not stand with her weight shifted back to relieve pressure. She does not wear shoes, and in fact has great gravel-crunching feet. She has only had the one bout of founder when we first bought her, and no recurrences.

That said, like you, founder WAS my first suspicion, but her symptoms just didn't fit right. Her behaviour is very subdued and she really reminds me of someone with the flu.

The vet said that he could hear labored breathing just from her short walk, and did not see anything in her movement to indicate lameness. After a few minutes of standing still for examination, her breathing was easier. All of this was detected by stethescope, as there was no obvious effort to me.

How long should I be letting this go on without improvement before I ask for a re-evaluation of the medication, or even the diagnosis? Could these symptoms be something else altogether? West Nile even?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 2:39 pm:

Michelle after hearing more of her symptoms, it is strange. I wouldn't think a horse that is foundering could walk on gravel, and most do have a pronounced digital pulse and/or heat. HMMMM

How are her vital signs? Has she run a fever? Have you tried any bute or banamine that could help rule out pain.
Member:
mleeb

Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 4:22 pm:

I have to admit I have not checked her vitals or her temperature, or given any pain killer/anti-inflammatory agent. The vet did not say a word as to what her temperature was, so I assumed it was fine. Having him see her was my first attempt at solving this mystery.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 22, 2008 - 8:52 am:

Hello Michelle,
I too have questions about the diagnosis of heaves causing the "lethargy like symptoms" based on the lack of visible respiratory symptoms. You do not "hear" labored breathing, this is a conclusion made by observing the extra effort of using the abdominal muscles to help the horse breathe. You can hear respiratory pathology on auscultation but it is a known fact that it is difficult to correlate the sounds with specific lesions and there extent.

To get to your direct questions the article on Heaves has a list of possible substitutions for hay to feed to a heevy horse and the best long term treatment will be good management as defined in the article.
DrO
Member:
mleeb

Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 12:03 pm:

Well, after 4 or 5 days of Ventipulmin with no noticable improvement, I stopped at the vet clinic to ask a few more questions. Imagine my surprise when the reply I got was "no change at all? Hmmmm. Put her on 1gm bute twice a day, maybe it is her feet." With wisdom like that, how am I going to affect any improvement at all? I've taken the mare back off pasture, put her on grass hay again, and have given bute for the last five days. There may be a slight improvement, but it's too early to tell. I have to work for the next week and a half, so at the end of that, if there is still no big improvement, I'm hauling her in to see the OTHER vet.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 8:14 pm:

Wow Michelle,
I would have to ask which clinical signs confused them between sore feet and an allergic pneumonia?
DrO
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