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Discussion on Yearling with Renal Problems
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New Member:
robink
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2008 - 11:35 pm:
Filly in renal failure. I am not sure what to do about my yearling filly or how this happened. Starting last Feb 08 she had a mild colic then again in April. Then she just never seemed to feel very good her hair coat was dull and she was/is just kind of depressed.
I have owned her since birth and she has lived on our grass pastures and only eats grass hay. I took her in and had blood work done. Her Creatine was 4.5 (normal range 2.5 is the high end) and her BUN was 65, she was also anemic and her white blood count was high. We did a propac 5 day worming program and followed up 10 days later with a tape wormer.
I also changed her diet www.VitaRoyal.com and started giving her the EPS formula. She gained some weight and her hair started to look better shedding out a bit. I took her back to have her bloodwork done again and her white blood cell count was normal and she was less anemic. But her Creatine was still at 4.5 and her BUN was now 120.
I made a mistake and I thought she was feeling better and I gave her some alfalfa hay the day before the test. My vet did not feel like the prognosis is good. He thinks she has renal disease. Now I don't know what to do. She continues to eat her special food from Vita Royal with relish getting pushy and really gobbling it down. I feed her 2X per day as directed. She still seems to gain weight but progress is slow.
Everything I read makes me feel like crying. Basically that it is just a matter of time before she dies and there is nothing I can do. I guess I am seeking input from anyone with any suggestions or ideas. I don't want to miss out on something I should have tried.
I also don't want her to suffer needlessly. What happens with Renal Failure is she in pain? does she have a headache all the time as is described in human Renal Failure. I don't want to put her down if there is anything that I can do to help her, but I also don't want to be selfish and keep her alive if she suffers.
Any ideas or thoughts would help
Thanks
Robin
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2008 - 7:12 am:
Welcome Robin,
I am sorry to hear about your ordeal. Renal failure itself is not acutely painful but your feel sick which may include a headache. Neither of these lab values is diagnostic for chronic renal failure and the stable creatinine significant. There does seem to be a problem however. What are your horses vital signs (temp, pulse, respiratory rate)? How much water is the horse consuming daily? What are all the horses chemistries (please include the units and the lab normals).
The critical question that will not be answered by any of the above is why are the kidney's malfunctioning? Until this is known specific treatment and prognosis is difficult to formulate. If history and clinical evaluation do not reveal the cause you should consider ultrasound and biopsy.
DrO
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New Member:
robink
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Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2008 - 2:33 pm:
Hello
I am posting my filly's bloodwork results as a pdf document
Thank you
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New Member:
robink
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Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2008 - 3:03 pm:
Hello Dr. Oglesby
Thank you for your response. I tried to create a new posting but I am not sure it worked. I am attaching all the lab work done about 14 days apart.
I just got home from Albuquerque my sister is having a baby and so I will go out and take her vital signs.
She dose not seem to consume a lot of water pretty much normal like all the other horses. But she does seem to dribble urine all the time. And before getting her evening feed she almost always pees.
I had the vet do a urine sample and the specific gravity was 1.5 if I remember correctly and within the range it is suppose to be.
I am heading back to Alb on Monday and I am going to take her there for an ultra sound. Today when I got home her legs look swollen.
I wanted to add after reading Laura's posts that In late Feb she coliced and we treated it with Banamine and Equi-Spaz (www.saratogaproduct.com). Then she coliced again in early April and again I treated it with Banamine and Equi-Spaz.
Then in May my entire herd got the snots and had temps in the 102 range so we put everyone on the SMZ antibiotics. I am not sure if this information is significant but I wanted to let you know.
Thanks for your help and why is the stable creatine significant?
Robin
Here is a photo of her last fall https://www.oceallaighfarm.com/images/Ikandie3months2.jpg
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2008 - 3:26 pm:
She's lovely Robin and I really hope the ultrasound gives you an explanation for what's going on, and that your sweet filly makes a full recovery soon.
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New Member:
robink
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Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2008 - 4:04 pm:
Okay I have more info. Currently my filly's temp is 100.5. I have to read on how to do the temp and pulse but she is not distressed at all she is just depressed.
I called the vet to get better records. The colic dates are incorrect.
She was born May 24, 2007
Oct 30 2007 is when she coliced she was given flunixamine
Then again in January 2008 again she was given flunixamine
Then in may everyone I own was kind of sick with the snots and temps in the 102-103 range so they all got SMZ starting on May 6, 2008. Everyone else got a lot better but she just kind of stayed depressed and her hair coat was not very good and everyone else was shed out by the first of June. For all of June and early July I was supplementing her feed with Omlene 100 to try to get her weight up and get her feeling better.
July 18, 2008 I started her on Gastroguard for 30 days and changed her to the Vita Royal feed program and took away all processed food. I also limited her salt to the white salt block.
8/26/2008 we drew blood and got the first lab results high white blood cell anemic, elevated BUN 63 and Creatine 4.5. Did the five day womer and had a urine analysis done and all levels where good with the specific gravity at 1.5 high being 2.0 and low being below .5.
9/09/2008 again to the vet for fall shots including WNV teeth floated and blood work where there white blood cell count was normal she was less anemic but her BUN was 106 and her creatinine was 4.5. All vital signs at that time where normal.
Today just now I noticed that her hind legs are swollen. I have an appointment at 9:00 Monday to take her in to the vet 3 hours away in Alb. I hope I am not to late.
Robin
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2008 - 9:54 am:
Robin - Good luck to you and your filly. I hope you can figure out what is going on and come up with a treatment that works.
Lilo
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2008 - 10:00 am:
Wow Robin,
Normal urine specific gravity at the first exam throws the diagnosis of chronic renal disease in question. In all species I know of including the horse it is a well established principle that when the kidneys fail they loose their ability to concentrate urine before their ability to remove toxins like urea and creatinine. I think a urine specific gravity needs to be repeated including urinalysis and cytology to confirm they are still concentrating.
Hmmm...it repeating he urinalysis does confirm the kidneys are OK and without signs of post renal urinary obstruction this is possibly a prerenal azotemia: the cause of the rise in urinary toxins is not the kidneys themselves and usually related to impaired blood perfusion of the kidneys. The high ratio of BUN to Cr is consistent with a prerenal cause. Before you make a long trip be sure the veterinary hospital is able to investigate such possibilities with ultrasound of the kidneys and maybe the heart.
DrO
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New Member:
pierre
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 12:21 pm:
i just joined this group. i have a long yearling in some type of renal disfunction, failure, disease? now sure. i would like to know what robin has found out abt her filly?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 7:09 am:
Chris have you read our articles on renal disease in horses? Back up to Urinary System using the navigation bar at the top of this page.
DrO
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New Member:
robink
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 8:53 am:
Hello Chris and Dr. Oglesby
I had my filly euthanasized October 24, 2008. I took her to my vet in Albuquerque, NM and had her Kidneys Ultrasounded they where riddled with Kidney stones and Cysts. I brought her home and purchased a herbal mixture from Austria and kept feeding her and put a blanket on her but she just kept failing.
It was starting to get cold, really cold at night and on the morning I had her put to sleep she walked over to me and her bottom was soaked with urine ice matting her tail. Her gait was unsteady and she had quit eating about 4 days earlier.
I had scheduled to have my 2 30+ horses put to sleep that day as they where becoming so thin and again it was starting to get so cold. So I broke open a bag of equine senior and I let all three horses hang out together and enjoy the fall sun. I groomed everyone, untangled their tails, cleaned their hooves, and washed there faces. I washed Ikandie and rubbed her poor bottom dry and covered the bald spots with zinc oxide and baby powder.
Then my neighbor came over and dug me a hole. The vet came and I had each horse put down and laid in the hole we dug on my property. I put Ikandie to sleep last and she was so fragile and week she just knelt down in my arms and relaxed. She was not ready for death she tried to survive but it was just too difficult and she was suffering. We buried her that day with her grandpa. The old gelding who she was weaned with. I bought a Sycamore and planted it on their grave.
The problem you see with Kidney Failure is that the Kidneys won't heal. But the time you are getting the blood readings that Ikandie had 80% or more of her Kidneys where not functioning. They would never get any better. So once I got a determinative diagnosis I already knew in my heart I had lost. The only hope was to put her on a low protein diet and try to stabilize her. But she was really sick and there was little quality in her life. The thought of her standing outside in the cold with an empty stomach was too much for her to bear.
I am heart broken about this and I don't have any explanation all vets that I have consulted with said it was congenital. She was born destine to die.
Robin
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 9:32 am:
Robin there are simply no words to express my sympathy to you. I've been following your post hoping for the best. As I read what you have been through I recoiled at the pain you are feeling. The courage and selflessness you summonsed up on October 24 is unreal. I hope sometime in the future you will be able to find comfort in knowing you did everything possible to give you horses the very best you could.
I am so sorry. Cheryl
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 9:56 am:
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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New Member:
pierre
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 11:07 am:
robin. my heart literally fell to my toes for you when i read your email. i followed your emails to know all you have done and the anguish you have gone thru. pls know that i give you all my energy to heal and let go. the one thing i know for sure is that horses go to a much finer place once they cross the line of death. i know that my filly is probably on the same road, but i have been hoping against hope that something will turn around. we did a ua yesterday and specific gravity was 1.011. no protein in urine. so according to my vet that means that her kidneys are sort of in a state of not concentrating and not not concentrating. her weight is good and she eats like a "horse". she does not have the energy she had before, and carries her tail crooked to side or up. i dont' know if she is in pain. but i understand that kidneys do not repair and she will deteriorate over time. i have not taken for u/s as i we have just monitored w bld work and ua's. this weekend i am letting her go out to pasture in hills where she has access to water, great wild grasses and will be supplemented w hay and feed and checked twice a day. will see how that goes. want to give her some joy in her life of being a free horse. i am so very very sorry abt your filly. i just do not have words. just a heavy heart 
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New Member:
pierre
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 11:13 am:
dr o. next week i will attach all lab work on my filly and the diary of her illness. may be interesting for you to peruse. and i will take the time this weekend to read the info on renal disease. i have quickly reviewed, but not in depth.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 11:29 am:
Robin, my heartfelt condolences on your loss. You lost three horses all at the same time, but you knew they did not have a quality of life.
Chris, I am very sorry about your horse also.
All the best,
Lilo
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 5:01 pm:
Robin, your courage is impressive. It sounds like you made the right decision, nevertheless, my heart breaks for you.
Erika
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New Member:
pierre
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 11:22 pm:
dr.o. i quickly typed up short synopsis of my filly's illness and lab work and attached. not very professional but it works for now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2008 - 9:08 am:
Chris it appears your horse went through an acute episode of renal failure from unknown cause but may be currently recovering as expressed by declining BUM and Cr values. The one parameter that might be do to renal disease that does not seem to be responding is the calcium but without normals and units I am uncertain. Also there are several different calcium measurements that can be taken is this a simple calcium ion measurement or does this include bound calcium also. What are the labs units and normal ranges for all values?
Another important piece of information at this point is a urine specific gravity.
DrO
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Member:
pierre
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 10:49 am:
dr.o. i sort of DrOpped the ball on this. sorry to leave you hanging. i did just email re: support and did read abt that. thank you. i really will attach copies of the 4 blood works that we did, and the specific gravity of urine. i contacted a internal specialist vet some distance away and he recommended ultra sound and u/s guided biopsy. after talking w my own vet here in billings i decided to forgo the cost and wait til spring to see how she is doing. re: email on renal failure support. as i said in that email she is wintering well, altho not as heavy as my other horses. interesting re: paints and poly...as she is a medicine hat paint. have put all on back burner based on the fact that kidneys do not repair selves. considered euthanizing, but will not do unless she starts to fail. thank you for your clear information, helps me quite a bit to understand better. one thing for sure, i have learned that w horses, you get what you get and take it a day at a time. thanx. by the by, upon initial symptons we did treat her w flumeglumine for twice a day 2 1/2 days appropriate for weight of 900 lbs. have read several articles abt treating dehydrated horse w it and it can cause kidney damage. beginning to wonder if that was not the case. hate to think i did this. oh well. also, she has not ever carried great amt of weight, never thin, always ribs show. also wonder if there is not a congenital issue. again, am sure u/s would define this, but will wait.
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Member:
pierre
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 10:58 am:
p.s pls note that i am the same person who sent email on nutritional support of kidney disease. would you direct me to further explanation of paints predisposition to polycystic type. thanx.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 10:55 am:
I have reviewed the veterinary literature and cannot find evidence for a paint horse predisposition to polycystic kidneys and I would be interested in any such information you may have. In 2004 a review of polycystic kidneys in horses found the rare and sporadic occurrence of the disease suggests a point mutation rather than a genetically heritable disease. We do know humans and Persian cats do have such a recessive genetic defect in a small portion of the population.
DrO
PS chris, you need to learn to use proper punctuation and capitalization in your posts. Leaving the capital off the first word of a sentence Makes reading longer posts much more difficult. By using proper technique you will get more and quicker answers.
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Member:
pierre
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 11:50 am:
Dr.O. I know nothing about predisposition of Paints having polycystic kidneys. I read it in your info under Chronic Renal Failure; Causes; 2nd paragraph, last sentence. As a result I wondered what further information you had on it.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 6:09 pm:
I see the statement chris and do not remember where that reference came from. Certainly the research I have done the last two days does not find such a relation. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, members constant probing and questioning of the articles is one reason that they remain so current and accurate. Either you have corrected a mistake or a major publication in equine veterinary medicine has missed something.
DrO
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Member:
pierre
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 6:56 pm:
Seems to me i have read this elsewhere when I was in the mad fury of research and discovery when filly was first ill. Have no idea where or when. Maybe sometime i will see again, and let you know.
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Member:
pierre
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 10:47 pm:
Dr. Oglesby, Pls refer to post comment 11-26-08 frm chris m a (me). I am attaching a chart of the lab work we have run on my filly as of this month. Also her specific gravity has run abt 0.01, not spilling protein and no bacteria in urine. I am still assuming kidney issues. would be interested in your thoughts on her lab work. She turned two years on 3/15/09, stands 15'3, looks like she is in training for the race track. Healthy and happy and full of energy. Is race bred.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 6:52 am:
chris m a,
We have sort of highjacked Robin's discussion here. If you would copy and paste the pertinent information and the lab work in a New Discussion we can pick it up from there. Thanks for helping keep us organized.
DrO
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Ikandie's blood results
illness description
lab work chart