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Discussion on Snatching hind leg up high when picking out hoof
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 3:45 am:
Hi DrO,
Lately, my horse is slightly reluctant for me to pick up her LH, and when I do she snatches it up as high as she can and holds it there in a very intense, straining kind of way. When I release the leg, it remains in this high position for a few seconds before she lowers it slowly to the ground, and rests it for a while. Is this by any chance a clear symptom of a specific problem (stifle, hock, back?)
She doesn't do it every time I pick out the foot, and it's usually gone, or at least much better, after I've ridden her.
When ridden, she doesn't seem any different from usual really: she's been a bit uncomfortable at first in trot over the last few weeks, but she works out of it and I've put it down to her arthritis. (She's around 20 years old and has bone spavin and arthritic knees - also laid her right knee open in May - see post Lacerated Knee. I have her on Cortaflex HA, and only work her two or three times a week, with short trail rides in between. On this regime, and as long as I give her a really long warm-up, she's normally fine and moves well.)
I noticed something else yesterday and wondered if it could be the explanation, i.e. a cause of pain when the foot is picked up: the bulb of her heel on the same LH has developed two quite deep fissures, each like a continuation of the outside sulcus of the frog. It's as if the shoe is holding part of the the heel tissue in one place, but the rest of it is pulling away. We've gone from DrOught to rainy conditions over the last two weeks which may well be the cause.
Many thanks for your time.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:59 am:
Hello LL,
While there are some muscle and neurological problems that can be associated with such a reaction, there are also some horses that will behave this way without other signs of disease. They also may not like their flanks touched and show other signs of not caring for you to be around the back end.
Without more specific signs of disease I would be slow to spend much to investigate this and I would be more interested in the recent low grade lameness when first started. If you would like to read more about diseases that have such reactions are:
1) shivers
2) stringhalt
3) polysaccharide storage myopathies
You could start with any of the articles on each of these as they are interlinked but I would recommend Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Shivers.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 1:59 pm:
I have found horses will sometimes do this if they are arthritic, esp. in the hocks.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 2:38 pm:
Thank you DrO and Sara,
It does sound rather like shivers from the article, in that it occurs when the hind limb is raised as for shoeing. At the same time, I note (with some alarm) that certain plants can cause stringhalt, and that makes me wonder about the green leafy vegetables that I feed daily.
I don't think it's behavioural, as she doesn't mind having her feet picked out normally.
DrO, I take it that you do not feel the cracks in the heel bulbs could be causing pain when the hoof is lifted?
Sara: thank you, I'd be happy if it's just the arthritis I already know about, and not something new and hard to pinpoint. My trainer thinks it's probably just arthritis.
I think I'll wait and observe and read articles for a few more days (this only began 3 days ago). I'll also pour betadine into the heel cracks and cover them with zinc oxide ointment in the faint hope that they're the cause.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:11 pm:
I really have no way of knowing if that might be a cause LL, I suppose if it hurts worse once risen it might cause such a response either reflexive or an intentional attempt to avoid having it touched but that is just a supposition.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 7:22 am:
Yes I understand that. I'll post an update for anyone interested if I find out what it is, or if it mysteriously stops happening as suddenly as it started.
Thanks again.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 7:35 am:
LL my old mare started doing that about 10 yrs. ago. I never had her diagnosed, but I believe it is arthritis in her hocks, but I am not sure. It acts a lot like shivers too. She remained rideable for the whole time. She is retired now at 29yo, but gets around just fine.
Before the farrier came I had to give her bute, which worked for many years. She did get to the point about 2yrs. ago that nothing helped....I finally quit having her back hooves trimmed, thankfully she "self trims" pretty well in the hinds.
I am definitley interested in your outcome, so please keep us updated
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 8:22 am:
LL,
I have young mare, around 6, who always jerks her front feet when I pick them up. She jerks her foot up, not trying to put it down, and it's hard to get her to relax and put it on the hoof stand. I think for her, it's an anxiety thing, she was starved when we got her, and I think at some point she got tangled in something as she has some old scars around her legs.
On the other hand, my 19 year mare has started doing something similar to what you describe, I know she has some arthritis and she has ringbone in her front feet. She has some puffiness in her lower back legs too that comes and goes, she's always had that, but it's more consistent now.
I just take my time with both mares, and the older on is on joint supplement also. Have you tried that? I've had good luck with Aniflex Complete, I definitely see her moving better, and she's more comfortable with picking her feet up.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 1:46 pm:
Diane: yes, now I remember your thread about the difficulties in having your elderly mare shod. So that looked like shivers too? Giving bute before shoeing is a good idea - my mare's due to see the farrier in 9 or 10 days and I was wondering how she'll manage if she's still as she is now. How much bute did you give, and how many hours before? So glad to hear your mare is enjoying her retirement now.
Angie: yes, I've got her on Cortaflex HA Liquid. Today I loose schooled her for the first time since she cut her knee open about 6 months ago - handwalked her first to make sure she was at least warmed up before she did anything we'd both regret(!), she did her usual slightly ouchy trot at first, then it evened out, she exploded and bucked into canter, sped round and round, and ended up doing a beautiful trot, really tracking up and stretching out and down and very pleased with herself. Afterwards, picking out the LH was much closer to normal - but it generally seems to be so after exercise.
DrO: when you say "in the absence of other signs of disease", what other signs would there be if it were shivers?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 6:05 pm:
LL I gave her 2 grams, 2-4 hrs before the farrier was due. 1 gram may have been enough but I wanted to make sure, and 2 grams of bute every six weeks wasn't going to kill her . Bute doesn't help shivers I don't think, but it did seem to help for awhile, whatever her problem is/was at the time.
She started out as you describe your mare, but slowly got worse over the years. When I decided to stop trimming her it had gotten so she would hold her back leg up to her stomach and it would just spasm, then it was hard for her to get it back down. It looked very painful, so decided against doing it anymore.
She has the natural hoof care in her rears, I haven't cleaned them out and she hasn't been trimmed for about a year and a half and is doing very well. You would never know she has anything wrong with her as long as you don't pick up the back hooves. She walks, trots, canters in the pasture with the boys, and even jumps the creek occasionaly. When she lays down she does "flop" some, but she can get up just fine thankfully.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 6:54 am:
You will find a complete discussion of the signs of shivers in the article I reference above: Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Shivers.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 7:47 am:
Thanks Diane,
I was also thinking after I posted that bute wouldn't work for shivers - unless shivers has an inflammatory component? If it does not, perhaps a few days of bute could be a good way of ruling out shivers in horses like ours which we know to have arthritis (ie if the discomfort/leg snatching etc. stops, it can't have been caused by shivers as the bute wouldn't have relieved it).
Does that make sense?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 7:58 am:
LL makes perfect sense to me . The thing that confused me with my mare was that bute worked for quite awhile, then slowly she got worse and bute didn't seem to help at all. I switched to banamine and that again helped for awhile. Now nothing works. I don't know if her arthritis just got too bad or she has a progressive case of shivers(if there is such a thing)?
The vet and farrier both have said they have many older horse that can't have their back feet trimmed unless they are tranqued and laid down, I didn't like that option so decided to see how the ignoring the back hooves would go. It is working out fine for her.(so far anyway)
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 9:54 am:
Hi LL, I have a very stoic morgan in my barn that does this with both back feet, his front feet are horrendous (coke can and HIGH heels)... while I think it may just be in the hind end, check the front diagonal leg, just to rule it out.
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New Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 11:39 am:
LL, my gelding has always done this with both hind feet .. picks them waaaaaaaay up when I ask for a hoof. As he has never shown any lameness (knock wood) I have always assumed it is just his polite nature. For example when I trim his fronts, rather than using a hoof stand he holds his foot out in front for me .. just barely resting it on my knee. What a gent :-)
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 3:01 pm:
The problem you describe is a very common problem with horses that have thrush. Often the frog may look okay, but the thrush can remain deep within the frog area and not show the usual signs of thrush. Do not be fooled by looking at the frog and thinking it is healthy. The cracks in the sulcus area are indicative of thrush. Unfortunately, the usual topical remedies will not help and can make matters worse since they can kill off healthy tissue. The best treatments are repeated soaks with a solution like oxine AH or White Lightning which will kill the thrush and allow the frog to heal. Linda Cowles has a good article on here website www.healthyhoof.com
My gelding started pulling his foot away after being barefoot all his life. It was such a change after so many years. It took me a while to figure out the problem was thrush which makes their frogs very sore. After treating him, he is now fine and perfectly happy to have his feet picked or worked on.
Thrush can also cause wry hoof, uneven heels, conformation problems, etc. I am sure many behavior problems are blamed on the horse when it is the painful frog that is causing the problems.
If you need more info on treatment, you can contact me.
Gail
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 3:49 pm:
Aileen: I'll check the front diagonal just in case.
Shannon: the thing is that this is new behaviour in my horse. so I don't think she's just being polite. She is trying to offer me the RH to pick up instead (well p, which saddens me.
Gail: Well, her feet look dry, and I take a lot of care of them, but it is possible that she has deep-seated thrush I suppose - after all she does have those fissures. I feel as if I may have caused these, though, because there is not much space left between the shoe and the frog, and I've been rather aggressively trying to get in there with the hoof pick. I'll discuss it with the farrier who's due next Friday.
Thank you all so much for your advice/suggestions; I'm taking them all on board.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 7:39 am:
I disagree with Gail above, I don't find horses with thrush often lift their legs quickly and neither do I find cases of "occult thrush" that are likely to be missed by the farrier, vet, or an observant owner.
Occasionally you might find a poorly trimmed foot with a flap of horn, frog or bar, under which thrush is growing but that foot stinks about as bad as a regular foot. For more on the diagnosis and proper treatment of Thrush see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Thrush.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 8:05 am:
I called my vet today and described my mare's symptoms. His response was that unless she had suffered any kind of trauma recently, it was shivers. He said there is not much to be done about it, exercise level can remain the same, and it is painless. He didn't feel it necessary to come out and examine her, given the symptoms I described.
DrO, I have the following questions:
1) if it is painless, why is she reluctant to let me pick up the foot in question, but offers me the other hind instead? To me that signals anticipation of pain or at least discomfort?
2) does phenylbutazone relieve the symptoms of shivers (is shivers at all inflammatory)?
3) if the answer to 2 is no, would you recommend a short course of bute to rule out any other cause, such as inconspicuous trauma or arthritis?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 8:00 pm:
Taking your questions in order LL:
1) If it is painless: this can happen because horses tend to very sided in their learning often what is learned on one side in not known on the other...until taught.
2) No
3) Yes good doses for a goodly time
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 1:17 am:
Hello DrO,
Thank you so much. What dose and time period would you recommend?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 12:55 pm:
Two weeks is often recommended as a trial run for diagnosing muscoskeletal pain. In our article on phenylbutazone you will find recommendations. Dosage should be set by your veterinarian.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 7:15 am:
She almost fell over yesterday and today when I was picking out her LH.
I've asked the vet to come out and give her a proper exam, and he's coming tomorrow, so I'll discuss the bute idea with him then.
Meanwhile, I'm busy rereading the articles on shivers, stringhalt, PSSM and tying up, and mean to ask him about possible ill effects from the leafy vegetables I've been feeding her (in case of stringhalt) and whether lots of apples and carrots could be causing a problem (in case of PSSM). although she gets almost zero grain.
Perhaps I should suggest a blood test to rule certain conditions in or out?
Thanks a lot for all the advice!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 8:27 am:
Good Luck LL I hope it's nothing serious. That's why I stopped hoof care on my mare she got to the point of "falling over" and there was no stopping her. I'm positive it wasn't behavioral as she was very good up to that point.
Can you hold her hoof low and clean it? That worked for awhile for me also. She is now to the point of if you pick it up it goes right to her belly and "shivers"/spasms, and she can't hardly get it back down.
Let us know what your vet says!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 11:08 am:
Diane, not sure if I can get her to keep the hoof low - she goes from "please don't make me lift it" to "it's take-off time" in half a second.
Thanks for the good wishes, and I'll certainly report back!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 11:09 am:
...of course, when the vet comes she probably won't do it at all ... any bets??
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 11:19 am:
That's a bet I wouldn't take! .
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 7:38 pm:
Hmmm, the leg you are lifting has arthritis, the leg she is trying to balance on is painful, or she is training you to leave the foot alone.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 9, 2008 - 7:37 am:
Unfortunately, the vet said she definitely has shivers, combined with myopathy and a slightly inflamed stifle.
He gave her about 4 injections of cortisone and muscle relaxant between the vertebrae in the sacro iliac region, saying it may or may not help depending on whether there's something mechanical going on like a bone spur, or it's the muscles themselves (have I got that right??).
She's to be on box rest with handwalking for 3 days, then I should lunge her at walk and trot for a week (it's alright if she chooses to canter just a LITTLE  ).
Next week he wants to come back and blister the stifle.
Heigh ho.
Any thoughts DrO?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 9, 2008 - 6:29 pm:
If it is pain then predosing with phenylbutazone several hours before working on the feet might help. I am uncertain how blistering is going to help any of the conditions you list. To address each of the specific conditions:
For more specific treatment of the inflamed joint see the article on Arthritis Overview.
For treatment on the myopathy see the article on Rhabdonmyolysis.
For treatment on the Shivers see the article on Shivers (but there is not much we can do about this one at this time).
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 10, 2008 - 9:50 am:
Thanks DrO,
Re the inflamed stifle: I asked if he was going to inject it with cortisone, and did a sort of shock, gasp, horror response when he said no, he'd blister it. He just smiled and said it would be fine. When I got home I looked up blistering here and found that you differentiate between external blistering (as I remembered: extremely painful as well as ineffective) and internal blistering (much less painful, and effective in cases of UFP. Of course with shivers the flexion is in the other direction - would it still be helpful?) I must say I can't see why cortisone would not be preferable - don't see why ANY pain should be inflicted if not essential.
Re the myopathy: he found a lot of back pain in the muscles behind the saddle area, and felt that it was worth trying the injections in case the muscle pain was caused by an irregularity of the spinal cord, such as a bone spur. If this doesn't bring relief, he will conclude that the problem lies in the muscle itself - and then I presume we proceed to treating it as PSSM. Perhaps I was wrong in using the term myopathy when I just meant muscle pain from any cause.
Don't know if this clarifies things?
I've always trusted this vet as he seemed to be on the same page as you DrO. Oh dear, hope he still is...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 8:56 am:
I do not believe blistering is effective for shivers LL and I am not sure I why you would blister the stifle because the horse picks the leg up quickly.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 3:00 pm:
All my boys at different times have had some issues over the years about picking up a particular foot. Often this had to do with not wanting to put more weight on another foot. Sometimes one boy is unwilling to pick up a particular foot before a ride, but afterward he is fine. He has been diagnosed with DJD though generally does fine for me. Also have a horse who will pull the rear leg up high like you described, and when he starts to do this, it helps him if we gently pull the leg back for a good stretch before asking him to hold it for trimming position. After trimming, when you give the foot back to the horse and he stands on it again, watch to see if he lifts any other foot up (opposite or diagonal?) to briefly relieve the pressure. With regard to blistering, many Veterinarians now seem to believe that this is archaic torture, although I know that some others still do it. It would seem to me that there would be a better way to accomplish whatever the goal is of this act.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 1:51 am:
Hello DrO,
I don't think I made it clear that the vet wants to INJECT the stifle with a blister, i.e. give an internal blister. I told him I would rather not, and he said gently that it really only hurts a little, and only for a day, and that it is really beneficial and without the side effects of cortisone and bute.
What do you think? I don't know whether to absolutely refuse or whether, based on a thread from you that I found here, INTERNAL blisters are acceptable and do have merit?
Thanks Vicki, and I will try pulling the leg back as you mention. I agree about blistering being barbaric, and had always sworn never to allow it, but this vet has always come up trumps for us and I'm wondering if internal blisters may be quite different?
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 1:59 am:
Hi DrO,
For some reason this whole thread was missing from my Today's Discussions page - I had to go and search for it in previous days' discussions and then only saw Vicki's post at first.
So now, to answer your last post: the internal stifle blister is nothing to do with the shivers but because the stifle is inflamed (see first paragraph of my Oct. 9th post).
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 5:37 am:
LL whatever you decide, let us know the results please.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 8:40 am:
Hello LL,
You have to ask yourself merit for what? Antibiotics have merit but won't help angular limb deformities. I have understood all along LL and I have never seen a recommendation to internally blister a inflamed stifle: if inflammation is the problem why inflame the MP Ligament? Is this horse clearly lame on this leg?
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 9:10 am:
No, not lame. Actually I have never understood the theory of counter-irritation at all.
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Member:
twadwis
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 11:24 am:
Over the last few years the Amish have moved into our area so there are many off the track standardbreds flying up and down the road. The majority of these poor beasts have some sort of lameness issues and many 'methods' of treatment, one of which is iodine injections in the stifle joint. I was shocked when the vet suggested that and also to lightly drive the horse daily to 'continue to build scar tissue'. I only observed the one case and it did not work but the vet said the stifle was really loose and they have better outcomes if injected earlier. I had forgotten about it until this discussion. The vet is an equine specialist and has a racetrack background.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 1:03 am:
That's interesting, Tania - thanks. Is this your vet?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 9:34 am:
The idea behind counterirritation is to take a "smoldering" condition that refuses to heal and get it inflamed enough that the body brings in white blood cells and new blood supply to clean up and repair the condition. There is not a lot of support for the majority of historical uses, like blistering a bowed tendon, but the practice continues. In the case of blistering a stifle ligament the idea is to get it to form scar tissue with thickens the ligament and help prevent if from getting locked in a groove that it has to ride over.
But I have never heard of counter irritation for a synovitis or arthritis problem where too much information is the primary disease problem. Though you often here the term "loose stifle" I have never seen a loose stifle myself nor a good definition of it. So it remains uncertain what the vet in tania's post was treating.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 6:53 am:
Many thanks DrO for the clear explanation - now I have a much better picture of what it's about. Tomorrow the vet is coming, and my trainer (who was away last week when he came) and I will get him to explain exactly why he wants to blister the stifle and what he hopes to achieve by it. This vet is a very quiet, gentle person, and I can't imagine him choosing to do anything brutal.
The LH is improved: although my mare is still reluctant to raise it, she's less so. Although she still snatches it up high, it's not so tense and strained as before. This is following the back injections last Thursday, 4 days of stall rest with handwalking and 2 days of free schooling (the 1st had some ballistic moments which weren't supposed to happen, but today she was very good and kept to a trot).
My trainer refuses to believe that it's shivers -she didn't see the LH at its worst - and I can't help hoping the vet will change his mind tomorrow.
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Member:
twadwis
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 9:56 am:
LL,
yes the vet that injected the iodine is a vet that I use and respect. I'm sure he offers different treatment options for Amish horses than he would for someone like myself. Over the years I've come to recognize differences in what owners expect from their vets in getting a horse back to work. In the case of this Amish horse the priorities were how soon can it get back to work and cost. The injection, even at only a 50% chance of repair was the owners choice, the horse has to perform with the least investment of time and money. Aren't our horses lucky to have owners who can take the time to find the best outcome.
I've put a call in to the clinic to see if they are still using the iodine (things change) injections and options.
Dr O's comment about 'loose' stifles...maybe 'unstable' would fit better ? The standardbred I'm talking about would be weight bearing on the bad leg but if you held your hand over the stifle area when he walked it felt loose/wiggled and was definitely unstable attempting a trot.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 11:32 am:
Thanks for the info, Tania. If you get a reply from the clinic any time soon, I'd love to hear what they say.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 8:55 am:
Well, the vet is going away for the weekend, and said if I wanted to think about it a little longer I could let him know when he gets back.
I asked him why he would want to further inflame an already inflamed stifle. His reply was exactly in line with DrO's explanation of basically bringing a "smoldering" condition to a head (the latter words mine not his).
He also said it's very mild, not the same substance that is used in external blisters and that it would strengthen the ligament, adding that doing so would help the back as well.
Sooo, decision time and I think I'll probably go ahead with it next week.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 6:25 am:
LL Just curious did you try the bute experiment on her? What were the results if you did?
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 9:00 am:
Hi Diane,
No I didn't - as I was having the vet out, I thought I'd discuss it with him if he diagnosed shivers only, but since he found pain in the loin area as well and injected it, (plus of course the stifle problem) it changed things. Now I want to see whether, if we manage to resolve those two pain issues, there will be any improvement in the snatching up of the hind leg (which MIGHT mean that it's not shivers after all??)
I mentioned to him that when the mare fell in May, opening her knee, she had her hind legs trapped in between two horizontal bars in the paddock. He was not the vet the barn called on that occasion, so I hoped he would say "aha, THAT'S the probable cause, not shivers at all", but he said it was too long ago.
I'm trying to get the farrier to come before the stifle blister, as she's overdue for his attentiions: I suppose it's still ok to bute her beforehand despite the fact that she's had the cortisone injection (a long-lasting one)?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 11:12 am:
I guess if we would think logical, like DrO. tries very hard to make us! I would have to try the bute first, before the "blistering". Just thinking out loud...wouldn't the bute "calm" the inflamation if that was the problem....at least enough to let you know if indeed that was the problem???
Is she still snatching her leg up since her first injection?
I really don't know what my mares affliction is, it surely resembles shivers....but she definitley will palpate sore in the stifle/hip area. The vet has done it many times, though I am not sure if she just doesn't want it touched at this point, or if she is truly sore....bute makes no difference at all for her anymore.
I should video this "leg snatching" for people to see. I know it is very uncomfortable for her...or so it seems.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 30, 2008 - 10:43 am:
An update: things are looking up on the whole. The leg snatching continues to improve, though with the occasional setback, and the vet says he no longer believes her to have shivers (phew! )
The back is no longer painful but muscles need building up.
Hopefully the stifle has been stablised by the internal blister which must have been really really mild as it seemed to cause no pain - just a few unsound steps coming out of the box the first two days.
She seems a little stiff in trot, and vet found heat in the left hock when he came for a checkup today (she does have bone spavin in both hocks), so I'm to ice it and apply Ice Tight and we'll see if it improves.
I'll go back to loose schooling her for the next few days in walk and trot (canter only if SHE chooses it), can start going on trail rides again and will start light schooling next week if all's well with the hock.
I feel it would do nothing but good to put her on the PSSM diet, and am searching for a source of alfalfa cubes here (not easy to find them). Is it necessary to eliminate ALL carrots/apples on this diet? She'd be really sad. Just two little carrots a day....?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 30, 2008 - 8:39 pm:
LL sounds good so far! How'd it go with the farrier?
So your vet thinks it's a combination of stifle, hocks, back?
I give my horses a 1 carrot OR 1 apple a day on their low carb diet.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 8:17 am:
Or how about 1/2 a carrot, cut up into lots of smaller pieces. I think it is the frequency and not the amount horses tend to note.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 9:19 am:
Hi Diane - I think it went ok with the farrier but I wasn't there at the time. I know she had 1gr bute (though many hours before) and I know that the farrier spoke to the vet beforehand too.
I know, it seems weird that more and more areas of soreness keep emerging, but I guess as each sore area gets treated, the next is revealed? My trainer/BO and I were just saying that to us it seems extremely likely that this is all a result of the accident she had in May when she presumably double-barreled the railings in the paddock, got both hind legs trapped between them and fell on her knees. The badly cut knee and all the blood made that the focus of everyone's attention, and the injectible bute she had for 5 days could have covered up musculoskeletal injuries so that no-one noticed at the time. I know the vet said it was too long ago to be the cause of current problems, but all these painful areas on the left hind side seem to tell a different story.
I'm trying to think whether there's anything useful for you and your mare in our experience. Do you ever pick up a back foot nowadays or is it too distressing for her? Have you had the vet treat your mare's stifle/hip area where she is sore? Sometimes we just assume that problems are a natural part of aging, when there is in fact something we can do about them.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 9:26 am:
Hi DrO,
Yes I think you're absolutely right that horses don't really understand the amount of a treat that you give them. I'll take your advice and present a tiny piece of carrot with great ceremony.
If I can't get hold of alfalfa cubes here, how about Spiller's Cool Fibre, which is 5% starch and digestible energy(MJ/kg) 8?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 11:05 am:
Hi LL,
First off, let me say that I am not a vet, just a person with a lot of experience with humans and animals and I've seen a few things that make me question your vets opinion that everything is not related.
This is a human story, but pretty similar to what happened to your mare.
About 30 years ago, my husband was on his way to the racetrack to jog a horse he was taking care of. The horse spooked and made a very sharp left turn over some very bumpy ground. The jog cart tipped over dumping my husband out and he wound up getting dragged because he did not want to let go of the horse. He got pretty well banged up and was sore for a few days afterwards. The worst injury was a deep abrasion that went from his wrist to his elbow. Proper first aid was given and the abrasion eventually healed up.
Fast forward about 4 months later. He started experiencing severe back problems. To the point that he could hardly walk. He started seeing an osteopath, who prescribed valium and naprosyn. He was seeing this doctor for at least a month, and while he put on a brave face, I could see he was still in a lot of pain and the drugs just did not seem to be doing a whole lot of good.
At one of his appointments, we were told that his regular doctor was attending the birth of his baby and that this doctors father, another osteopath, was going to see him that night. This older doctor took one look at my husband and sent him via ambulance to the nearest hospital. Where xrays and a bone scan revealed a very bad infection in his spine ( at first they thought it was inoperable cancer)but six weeks of complete hospital bedrest, and 4 times a day of IV antibiotics and almost another years worth of oral antibiotics did the number on the infection. Where did the infection come from? According to the hospital it came from that original abrasion that healed just fine. The infection got into his blood and settled in his spine and became the source of the problem.
Every day, I say my prayers that the older doctor spotted the problem right away or I am not sure if my husband would have survived. I think they said their prayers that I did not sue the younger doctor over the original misdiagnosis. I was just so happy to see him get better that at the time I didn't even think of it.
Its been over 30 years with very few residual effects, but I still cringe thinking about what might have happened. Therefore, I am very careful about cuts and scrapes on any of my animals and I try to make sure they are taken care of properly (like my recent posts on road rash and how I should treat it).
I think you are right to think that your horse's problems are related to her accident. You just need to do what you can to help her.
Rachelle
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 1:18 pm:
Hi Rachelle,
Thanks for sharing that horrifying story. It's frightening to think how easily serious problems are missed, or misdiagnosed, and how so much depends on chance. In your husband's case it also took a long time (4 months) for the symptoms to appear, which confirms my feeling that 5 months was not too long to relate my mare's current problems to her accident.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 10:53 pm:
LL I think our gut feelings when it comes to our horses is a very good instinct, who knows them better!
No I don't mess with my mares back legs, though I think on a good day it would be possible to pick them. She's retired and old so I don't want to stress her. If she can't pick them up that's fine by me...I've quit worrying about it!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 9:43 am:
I am not certain how this fits in with your total diet, how would this effect the balance of the total protein, vitamins, etc...LL?
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 - 4:47 am:
Well the Spillers Cool Fibre nutritional analysis is:
digestible energy (MJ/kg) 8
oil (%) 3.5
protein (%) 10
fibre (%) 26
starch (%) 5
vitamin A (iu/kg) 10,000
vitamin D3 (iu/kg) 1,200
vitamin E (iu/kg) 225
copper (mg/kg) 25
selenium (mg/kg) 0.2
I'll make a note of the actual ingredients later today and post them. She has two double handfuls a.m. and p.m. with cortaflex and (as of Friday) olive oil, for now just a little but the plan being to work up to the recommended 2 cups a day.
The total diet is grass hay of varying quality (occasionally with a little alfalfa mixed in): 2 - 3 flakes a.m., one flake at midday and 3 flakes p.m. No pasture. Some carrots and apples which will have to go I guess - another reason why I really want to find alfala cubes so I can give them as treats instead.
I should probably give extra vitamin E too.
Thanks for your time.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 - 1:22 pm:
These are the listed ingredients of the Cool Fibre - quantities not given :
nutritionally improved straw
chopped straw
wheatfeed
dried lucerne (alfalfa)
molasses grass nuts (?)
oatfeed
ricebran
sunflower extract
calcium carbonate
salt
soya oil
vitamins and minerals
vegetable oil
calcined magnesite
garlic
lysine
Contains EU permitted preservatives (formic acid and salts, ammonium propionate, lactic acid).
I forgot to mention in my previous post that I also give about 1 kg of fresh leafy vegetables from the chicory family: they're pretty bitter and considered to be beneficial to the digestive tract. Because of the bitter taste, I'm assuming they're not a source of glucose.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 7:47 am:
The one problem I see with a 10% protein forage replacement is if your grass is not good quality the total protein might DrOp below 10%. For more on this see the article on forages.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 9:20 am:
DrO, there's no grass (sadly). Do you mean our grass hay? Sometimes it's excellent, sometimes very poor and mostly the bales are mixed, some good some not so good. I realise you can't make a judgement based on this erratic scenario. The search for alfalfa cubes must go on I suppose, then I could supplement with them as necessary.
Do you find the Cool Fibre acceptable in terms of its starch level at the amounts we are feeding?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 8:32 am:
Ask your regular feed company to order the alfalfa cubes for you, they are commonly available LL.
I am uncertain what you mean by acceptable but if you are asking is this a acceptable horse feed that is low starch, it would seem so from what you have posted here.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 8:49 am:
Thanks DrO. Actually alfalfa cubes appear to be non-existent where I live (Greece). I can think of one last supplier to ask, then I'm out of options.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2008 - 7:26 am:
Bummer, does anyone raise clover in their hay?
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2008 - 11:38 am:
Alfalfa hay is grown here, just not made into cubes it seems. I thought it would be a doddle to find them, but just get blank looks and have to explain what they are.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2008 - 8:01 am:
Update: It really seems pretty certain by now that it is not shivers . There's very little difference any more between picking out the LH and picking out the other three feet. Most of the time she's perfectly happy to have the LH raised - may lift it slightly higher than the other legs once in a while, but then relaxes it back into a lower position and holds it there comfortably. So this is a huge relief!
In mid-November vet came back to check on the left hock (which had been sore on his last visit at the end of October). He was intending to inject the hock if it had not improved, but was amazed at how much better it was and felt there was no need.
(The chiropractor who treated her about 10 days later thought that the hock WOULD benefit from an injection, and recommended that both hocks in fact be done as she has bone spavin in both and he said injecting only the left would just create a vicious cycle of her favouring first one then the other. However, when I called the vet, who respects this particular chiro, to see what he thought of his advice, his response was that as long as she's not lame on it he prefers not to inject.)
I'm feeding the Spillers Cool Fibre as mentioned above (I emailed them about sugar levels since their analysis only mentioned starch 5%, but I knew from their ingredients list that there was molasses in it too. They replied that sugar level was 5% and that they use Molglo rather than pure molasses - said it would be fine for a PSSM diet?) with about 2 cups of soyabean oil daily and 1000 i.u. vitamin E. I've found that raw cauliflower pieces sprinkled with salt provide a very acceptable low-sugar treat instead of carrots, but I do give one medium sized carrot a day as well.
So, all in all, it's very good news.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2008 - 11:17 am:
This is great news. Thanks for the up-date.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2008 - 2:42 pm:
LL thanks for the update. Glad your mare is improving. I was wondering how she was!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2008 - 7:13 am:
Thanks guys!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 4:58 am:
Latest development is that she became lame in trot on the "iffy" left hock (which vet had considered injecting but decided against as it was improving so much).
He was out of town when I called him but prescribed two days of bute and riding her at walk only till he got back. When he arrived she showed up pretty lame at trot and very much so in flexion test.
He found the ligament around the hock to be inflamed and chose to inject that (rather than the joint itself). The injection was of cortisone and vitamin B.
However, if this doesn't work he'll go ahead and inject the joint when he comes back in two weeks' time.
Meanwhile I'm supposed to handwalk her but I haven't been able to as we've had so much (unexpected) rain lately that our arena has been too deep and slippery. She is turned out in a paddock for 10 or 11 hours at night though (unless it's really pouring) so I'm hoping her being able to mooch around for all those hours should be almost as good? Vet didn't want me to put a saddle on her for the first few days, otherwise I could have ridden out.
DrO, as 5 days have elapsed since the ligament was injected and more rain is forecast, do you believe it would be preferable to leave her with turnout only, or should it be ok by now to start short trail rides even though she won't have had any days of handwalking first to prepare her, and bearing in mind that nowhere is flat around here?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 8:21 am:
Hello LL,
These are decisions that must be made with your veterinarian but I would say before you ride you need to find some way to assess the lameness from the ground.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 8:04 am:
Thanks DrO.
I know you can't really say without examining the horse, but I just wondered which in your view is the lesser of two evils in this case: (a) not doing enough, i.e. no handwalking only paddock turnout, or (b) possibly doing TOO much, i.e. riding on slightly hilly terrain?
The vet's viewpoint was: she must walk; handwalking is best but riding in walk is acceptable (she's sound at this gait); refrain from hilly trail riding at least for the first few days.
Tomorrow it will be a week since the ligament was injected. For the last 3 days I've been able to handwalk her, but since we've had crashing rain all day today, I'll have to decide tomorrow whether to leave her in her stall all day (she's out in a paddock all night) or ride her out.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 9:26 am:
LL, both of the courses you describe are equally bad so you need to choose a course between them by following your veterinarian's recommendations. Not having examined the horse and being unfamiliar with the details of your environment and terrain I cannot pick the best choice here.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 10:40 am:
Thanks again DrO,
I know, it was silly of me to ask really (think I was hoping to hear "as long as she can wander around all night at will, that should be enough"!). My vet doesn't really know what's best under the circumstances either.
Oh well, I went with the first option this a.m. and will hope for a window of opportunity between showers tomorrow a.m.
Many thanks.
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