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Discussion on Protracted recovery after mild workout
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 8:53 pm:
Dr. O, I have read the articals and discussions about exercise intolerance. I have a feeling I know what your advice will be. But here goes:
Today after riding my five year old mare, Cleo, for twenty minutes or so of what I consider rather mild work--walking and trotting, working on rhythm, bending, etc., a few canter transitions, but not much actual sustained cantering--I stopped her to practice just standing still.
She seemed to be almost panting, so I just walked around on a loose rein for the next fifteen to twenty minutes; stopping occasionally to check her breathing. Although she improved slightly, it seemed really out of proportion to the amount of effort I had asked for.
She foxhunted a couple of weeks ago and seemed quite out of shape, but since it was the beginning of the season a lot of other horses seemed taxed also.
This horse has never seemed to tolerate exercise well. I have ridden her only lightly since she was a late two year old. She spent some time at a trainer where she worked about an hour per day,five days a week, mostly walk and trot, mostly on the lunge line. She did seem to get in shape enough at the end of the couple of months of that easy routine to where she wasn't sweating profusely, but again, it was hardly what I would consider a tough workout.
I have taken her on hunter paces and it seems I'm always having to slow down to rest her. Other people who ride as much or less than we do seem to have no problem with the pace on their less than fit horses.
Cleo is kept in large pastures with company both in her field and across the fence. She seems active enough when playing, etc. but has always been a little lazy under saddle. She is a tad overweight.
The only other observation I feel may be relevant is that occasionally she groans when walking back from the trail. It is like "grunt,grunt,grunt" then she will blow her nostrils. She often does this while grazing also. It sounds almost like she is holding her breath while she grunts and groans, then "PHHHT!"
I realize you can't diagnose from this description, but do you think there is any problem with continuing to work her lightly before and during what I anticipate to be some expensive veterinary evaluation?
Is it possible that nothing is wrong, that she's just not easily brought to condition? She is half American Saddlebred and half Friesian.
Thanks,
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 7:06 am:
Hello Erika,
And what do you think my advice would be?
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 8:35 am:
Ha ha! I knew that wasn't a very productive start!
I assumed you would tell me to get a complete workup on the horse, checking all possible organs that could be involved. Which (sigh) I guess I must do.
In the meantime, are there horses who are just naturally very unfit to the point that this could actually be "normal" for her?
And do you see any harm in continuing to work the horse lightly until the results of such testing are in?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 10:11 am:
Hi Erika,
I'd add that it might be productive to keep a log of her symptoms when they occur, including her temp/resp/pulse and the weather, and the activity (phase of the moon, sock color) and date/location. If you end up chasing something intermittent, it might help.
I'm no vet, but I have noticed plenty of variation in the athleticism of horses over the years, including how fast they gain and lose condition. That being said, the situation you describe sounds like it might well be something other than "last picked for dodgeball synDrOme."
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 1:03 pm:
Thanks Elizabeth. Since I didn't hear a loud and hysterical "NO!!!" from Dr. O about continuing work, I just came back from a trail ride.
Today is a bit warmer than yesterday, but we were in the woods rather than out in the field. She's a black horse, so maybe it felt cooler. Cleo had a bit more bounce to her step today.
There is a very long, gradual hill about a mile long near the end of our ride. I had her trot the whole thing, which is usually enough to get a horse puffing, which she did. But her recovery was noticeably quicker than yesterday's.
At this point I don't know whether this is a health problem, or as you call it, "Last Picked SynDrOme" LOL! Since she's made it five years without DrOpping dead on me, I'm going to see if some consistent daily work improves her. If I see many days like yesterday, I will then call the vet and mortgage the house...
Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate it.
Erika
Here's Cleo last week with my teenager friend:
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 11:09 am:
Erika, if you are asking me if unfit horses can respond to exercise with signs of stress, including increased respiratory rates and prolonged recovery, I think you know the answer to that one too.
However that is not the response I would have given you after your first post. I would ask that you have an exam done if you feel there is something medically wrong with the horse. But you intimate in your first post that after the hunt your horse did not look any more worn out than the others which did not sound like a horse suffering from anything more than a conditioning problem. A way that might help you to make a decision about this is to start checking and keep records of your horse's other vital signs. You should also note recovery back to preexercise levels. For more on this see Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Taking Temperature, Pulse, and Respiration.
DrO
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 2:52 pm:
Erika, don't know if this helps but Friesians in Holland are known for the fact that they take more time get in a good working decision.
Jos
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 2:53 pm:
sorry meant condition ofcourse, need more coffee and less wine
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 6:24 pm:
Thanks, Doc, and Jos.
I guess I have never had a horse that had such minimal conditioning as her baseline. On one of the hunter paces a Friesian owner told me her horse struggled with the heat and pace of that ride, so perhaps her genetics do play a part in this.
I grew up riding thoroughbred types and they seem to keep a pretty good fitness level. Her dam is my mare and she always did fine until the past few years with her various health issues, too.
My trouble is I am a "fair weather rider" so we all lose condition during the cold of winter and the heat of summer!
I don't know, maybe that one day Cleo wasn't feeling well and it was a little off-putting to feel her panting like that for so long.
Thanks, everyone for your input. I vow to be more consistent with her exercise, and maybe I can get my friend's daughter to come and ride more when I can't.
Erika
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 8:41 am:
Erika, don't know if in the US you have the equine discipline with four horses pulling a cart and doing the same as an eventer[apart from jumping ] Marathon[cross] roadpart[longer distance over road in certain amount of time dressage and dressage going around obstacles as fast as possible. Holland has had several worldchampionteams over the years and usually had about 3 to 4 competing teams at international level.
A long time one of them was a team of Friesians the other threewarmbloods of [heavy ] German or Dutch origines[so certainly no TB]
The friesians took as I understood TWICE the time to condition as the heavy Warmbloods. Each show with hot weather cost them places too.
Just so you perhaps canplace what she should be doing if perfectly healthy placed next to the horses you know.
Hope you understand my complicated explanation
Jos
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 10:45 am:
Yes, we have combined training four-in-hand here, Jos. My neighbor used to compete with his Hackney/Clydes crosses and I would ride with them sometimes. I owned the "fifth wheel", coincidentally, a big bay Hackney gelding that matched his team perfectly. Whenever one of his team was off, he would use my horse as one of his leaders. I sold that horse to one of his friends who did it too.
Thanks for the input on the sire's breed. I am suspecting that you're correct and she just needs to be brought along slower and with consistency. Good reminder about driving, too. I have a light cart that I can hook Cleo to for some variety. I broke her to drive, then never hooked her up again!
Friesians are pretty rare here and its nice to hear from someone who's more familiar. What else do I need to know?!!
Erika
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 3:45 pm:
Well as her other half is Saddlebred nothing from me I guess .
A lot of Friesians prefered pulling a cart over riding and canter and cavaletti work was difficult for them , but then you are talking about oldtime Friesians. I have once laughed my head of when we got a champion stallion always champion in harness to[apart fromthe breeding results] to ride.
Never been ridden about 10 years old saddle on his back rider here we go! BUT we had left three cavaletti on the ground and he bravely got over two and then didn't have a clue as to how to untangle himself and waited frightened and patient until we had dragged them away . That's a Friesian character sweet as they come!
But as I said that was the real oldfashioned cart type that's no comparison to the modern riding Friesians. I've seen somebody ride twenty Friesian mares together in hand!
Jos
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 6:40 pm:
Oh Jos!! The cavaletti story sounds like Cleo! Her mom is an amazing jumper. Cleo will plow through any jump. A log on the trail means to stop, and look, and slowly walk over.
On the hunt last week she actually got all four feet off the ground over one small jump. It is comical.
But she's a sweet, bombproof horse. If laziness is her worst trait (and she takes after me in that!) I'll keep her. The older I get, the less appealing becomes jumping. A steady girl on the ground may just be the thing for my future.
As for American Saddlebreds, you might be interested in knowing that they were the original American cavalry horse. Bred to jump, fight, cross-country anything...now they are known as peacocks of the showring. But I still have yet to meet a Saddlebred that doesn't have an amazing jump!
Just shows you that we backyard breeders don't know what the heck we are doing. I vow to leave it to the pros from now on!
Thanks,
Erika
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 7:49 am:
Erika & Jos, you might get a chuckle out of this: A couple of weeks ago, I went to the local high school equestrian meet to cheer on my BO's daughter and their team. By the time I got there, most of the pleasure classes were done and they had moved on to the "speed" classes, running barrels, pole bending, etc. I wandered off for a minute and in the ring they weren't useing, was a little girl, all attired in her English breeches and jacket, sitting on a lovely Friesian. All by themselves, they were "galloping" from one end to the other and back again. I wondered what the heck they were doing, but then went back to the other ring. A few minutes later, I watched some QHs and Paints rip around a barrels pattern at top speed and then, there was that little girl at the in gate. Apparently, her team needed one more rider to go around the barrels and she was it. So, we watched that stately Friesian, with his big, elegant gaits, canter around the barrels at about half the speed as the slowest QH. When they were done, everybody clapped & cheered at their effort and though they got no points for speed, they certainly captured everybodies heart for how beautiful they were!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 9:06 am:
Oh Fran wish I had seen that! Yes Friesians will try to do their best at whatever you ask though often very clumsy and then they dont panick but stand still and ask you for help with a scared face[you have to lift their front mane to see the scared eyes]
Erika I bet she will make you a perfect horse unless you want to do a lot of jumping. Usually as soon as they understand they practise well and get better and her being the cross she is I guess she will take you a lot of conditioning and practise but reward you with unfailing love and a steady head[and usually a very good health though fertility has been a problem due to the small left over gene pool]
A shame you both can't see the Dutch classes where they pull a 'sjees' Antique two wheeled friesian cart high up totally wood and often exquisitely painted and adorned with a male and a female in it in Friesian costume[with the gold rim on the head of the lady the bigger these were the wealthier the owner.] If you say stately these classes are IT.
Jos
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 9:17 am:
Fran, that is such as sweet story and I can just picture it. Erika, Cleo is beau-ti-ful! How tall is she?
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 10:01 am:
Fran, I would have paid to see that vision!LOL! I almost cried while reading it. What a great story.
Yes, Jos, Cleo is very loveable. The men who have been working on my barn have adopted her as their mascot. She has a sense of humor, too. She is also very easy going. I ride with my two Silken Windhounds and they go in circles around us rustling up game to chase. Yesterday the puppy shot right through Cleo's legs, bumping into them and somersaulting on the other side in pursuit of a squirrel. Cleo barely missed a step and just gave him a look like, "What the heck?!!"
Oh and thank you Jo Ann, for the compliments. Cleo is a pretty girl. She is exactly 15.2 hands. Not big, but anything over that is just farther to fall, I guess.
Interestingly, Cleo's sire competes in dressage, so I guess he knows where to put his feet on the flat anyway! Here he is doing what his owner calls "overbend", whatever that is...
Highlander
and another:
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 10:02 am:
Erika,
As you know, well, maybe you don't know, Tango is part Friesian. I have noticed he is not Mr. Ambitious, and on hot days, he's the one sweating like crazy. I have got him to jump over barrels on the lunge line, but he's really not very graceful at it. Unless he thinks I am going to try doing something over his back, he's my 1400 pound puppy.
Cleo is really nice!
Fran,
Ha, I can just see that girl "racing" around the barrels! Too bad you didn't get any pictures.
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Member:
dzaccheo
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Posted on Friday, Oct 10, 2008 - 1:37 am:
Hello, we import friesians from Holland to Italy. Some have very, very little excersize tolerance to the point that it does not seem possible that a horse could fatigue that easily. Others go just fine, though never to a level of the spanish horses, which is to be expected as they are cold-blood horses.
An interesting thing we have noticed is we have not found a correlation between the modern type having better resistance. In fact the two baroque we have are much stronger with much more wind than the modern ones we have imported, also much more reactive/responsive for training to high school work.
One thing that was told to us in Holland by the Dutch (not sure if it is true of not) is that the friesians can have a heart that is too small for thier body mass and never have good exercise tolerance. In fact I think we encountered one of these.
All friesians have poor heat tolerance although it seems to improve somewhat after a few years of acclaimation.
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