|
|
Discussion on All 4 Clubby In Dillon
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Sunday, Oct 5, 2008 - 1:14 am:
So, when I took Dillon to his Dutch inspection, my dressage trainer, who had not met him yet, mentioned he looked kind of clubby on all 4. I then discovered that the place he is at has a farrier who's trims regularly result in soreness and that all the horses there have developed long heels and short toes.
So, the new farrier calls me and tells me that the problem could be one of three things. Genetics, nutrition, or poor trims. He is suggesting I get x rays, which I am doing, and that I consult a nutritionist. The folks at this place have a regular nutritionist at the feed store they use. They are feeding purina foal grain. It has 14% protein. The new farrier says high protein is a problem with club feet. He suggested I also keep him in and stop the grain to help this problem.
Anyway, I have a call in to our vet, and I hope she will be able to shed some light on this. Neither Lilly or Voltaire have club feet, so I am pretty sure this is not genetic. Plus, if every horse in the barn has the same issue, I can't imagine they all are genetically club footed on all 4 feet!!! So, it is either the nutrition or the trims.
I am just wondering if 14% is too high in general and what you think about this case specifically, Dr O.
I have photos of his feet, but I am not able to post them now. I can post them along with his z rays in a few weeks.
Alicia
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 7:08 am:
Hello Alicia,
No, a 14% protein feed is not too high for growing foals. You should follow the link in the article on Club Feet to the one on Flexor Contracture which, if your foal is truly clubby all the way around, is what your foal suffer froms. It explains specific causes and treatment.
DrO
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 12:17 am:
Well, that's good that the feed is OK. However, the fact that all the horses in the barn have similar feet leads me to suspect it is not a physical thing, but farriery. Especially as half the horses with this condition are adults. Here are some photos of the feet.
Alicia
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 12:20 am:
foot two 
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 12:29 am:
foot three
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 12:32 am:
foot four.
x rays are being taken tomorrow to rule out congenital deformity, though now I wonder if that will show tendon problems?
Alicia
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 7:31 am:
Radiographs to rule out congenital deformity? Exactly what congenital deformity do they think a radiograph will rule out?
Alicia the photographs above look OK but we cannot make any conclusion about them because of the angle and not enough leg is included. What we need are good conformation shots taken from the side of the horse that includes the whole horse, filling the camera's frame, and with the horse standing square. Be sure the light is behind the photographer. Each side needs to be photographed separately. It can also be helpful to photograph the horse from the front and rear following the same rules.
DrO
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 11:00 am:
Dr O, would radiographs like a farrier series help determine whether the foal is trimmed properly in relation to the coffin bone and the rest of the bony column?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 1:01 pm:
Julie, without rotational pathology, and I see no reason to suspect it here, I don't thing there is a lot more information than just careful observation of the feet and legs for proper ap balance by aligning the angle of the pastern and front of the foot.
DrO
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 6:17 pm:
Well the radiographs were supposed to be taken today, so it is done.
Dr. O., I am not home right now, but could try to get down there next week sometime for better photos.
The farrier is suggesting cutting his protein too.
Alicia
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 6:22 pm:
OK, here are two more photos from this weekend. He was moving, but I think you see a little better how the foot angle doesn't really match the pastern angle and shoulder angle.
Alicia
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 6:24 pm:
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 9:03 am:
No, that is not evident from these images Alicia and like the former I don't see much wrong but the lack of good conformation shots keeps us from making any real judgement.
DrO
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 10:04 pm:
Dr O.,
Here is another part of the puzzle. This is his bloodwork.
Reading Value Range
Glucose [79] 60-125 mg/dL
Urea Nitrogen [21] 8-26 mg/dL
Creatinine [0.9, LOW] 1.0-2.2 mg/dL
Total Protein [6] 5.4-7.8 gdl
Albumin [3.3] 3.3-3.8 g/DL
Total Bilirubin [1] 0.8-3.2 mg/dL
Alkaline Phosphatase [312, HIGH] 50-250 U/L
AST (SGOT) [277] 180-380 U/L
Cholesterol [107] 5-140 mg/dL
Calcium [11.7] 10.8-13.5 mg/dL
Phosphorus [5.9, HIGH] 2.0-5.0 mg/dL
Sodium [135] 132-146 nEq/l
Potassium [4.3] 2.4-4.7 nEq/l
Chloride [93, LOW] 97-106 nEq/l
Globulin [2.7] 2.2-4.4 g/dL
CPK [227] 100-300 U/L
GGTP [19] 1-35 U/L
LDH [673, HIGH] 150-450 U/L
Three highs and two lows. Does this mean anything? I should be getting the X rays soon. They were taken the 7th of October, and I just got the bill, so I finally have their phone number!
Alicia
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2008 - 8:46 am:
What puzzle Alicia? I don't think any of these have much significance in a healthy growing colt. Some might look at the phosphorus and raise an eyebrow as to a dietary cal / phos problem but many factors effect phos level and I find mild elevations normal in foals where normals don't do a good job of checking age related differences in serum values. You should check your dietary cal/phos balance (we have an article in the nutrition section) but this is not a sure indicator of any problem.
DrO
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 7:55 pm:
OK, here are the x rays. I have no idea what they mean. I have a call in to the vets for their interpretation.
Alicia
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 7:56 am:
As to the notion that the horse is clubby they have very little meaning. I cannot evaluate those where the bottom of the foot is cut off but the one paramater that might could be evaluated for clubbiness, the solar angle, looks pretty normal. The solar angle is the angle the bottom of the pedal bone makes with the ground. Normally this bone is slightly tipped forward making about a 4 to 6 degree angle with the ground. This is just about where I would put your fronts just eyeballing it.
There is a proliferative periosteal reaction on the proximal growth plate of the middle phalanx of every foot. As long as there is not any lameness this probably has no significance as you find such reactions in foals pretty routinely and they grow out of it. Some will label this epiphysitis which you can read more about at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Epiphysitis, Physitis, and Physeal Dysplasia.
DrO
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 1:40 pm:
Dr. O.,
Well, I talked to the secretary at the practice this AM, and she said the vet report stated there was a slight off angle somesuch in the left front that could be easily corrected with trimming. I can't see it, but the farrier has the photos and is supposedly very good, so I assume whatever is wrong is correctable. I looked at the epiphysitis article, and it seems to say that this is normal in rapid growth times (which you said might be indicated by his blood work as well) and with excessive exercise. He is turned out with one buddy, and they do play quite a bit.
He is not lame, even when other horses in the barn were sore after trimming with the other farrier, he never was. Could just mean he is tough...
I wonder if this might be more normal than we realize. I am a bit anal in making sure my animals are healthy, and have insurance, so I bet most folks wouldn't have gotten x rays in my circumstances.
Alicia
|
Member:
gramsey1
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 10:03 am:
Please take a look at this link. It will show you what Dr. O needs to see in your photo.
A conformation photo is needed.
https://behindthebit.blogspot.com/2008/02/conformation-photos-tips-and-tricks.htm l
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 12:01 pm:
Alicia, I have not seen anything abnormal about the foal here.
DrO
|
Member:
wgillmor
|
Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 12:47 pm:
I had trouble with the link in Guy's mail. An alternative is https://tinyurl.com/5lzapc.
Wiley
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 11:50 pm:
You need to add the l to the end. Dr O, thanks, I am just paranoid. Also, to the original confo site, I am aware of what I SHOULD have posted, I just don't have any current photos of him. I though the most up to date would be the best. I plan on going out this week sometime, and hope to be there before it gets dark, and also hope someone will be there to hold him for me!!!
Alicia
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 2:01 pm:
OK, I know this is really late, but here are some more photos. I think the problem has resolved.
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 2:02 pm:
next
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 2:03 pm:
next
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 2:03 pm:
last
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 3:42 pm:
Nice looking youngster!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 6:32 pm:
I agree the foal looks good Alicia.
DrO
|
Member:
leslie1
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 8:15 pm:
he looks great alcia and a very nice looking horse
Leslie
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 11:16 pm:
Thanks all for the kind words, and for the opinion, Dr O. He has grown quite a bit since these photos, which were taken in July. His second birthday is the end of March, and in a coarse measurment, against my height, he is already 16 hands. I think he will get, as I predicted, 17 some hands. I just hope he stays sound. In my experience, tall horses are the ones who seem to be lame all the time. I have him on OCD to help manage any problems that may occur. We plan on breaking him a bit after his second birthday, and I hope to show him in hand again this year.
Alicia
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 6:36 am:
Alicia, I am not aware of any evidence that the dietary supplements OCD is better than a well balanced diet at preventing developmental bone and joint disorders.
DrO
|
Member:
aannk
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 12:36 pm:
Well, if it won't hurt, I will give it to him anyway. My current vet recommended I use it.
Alicia
|
|
|
