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Discussion on Good frog contact/support in CHPS
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Member:
lindac
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2008 - 10:11 am:
DrO,
The article on Navicular SynDrOme discusses the need for good hoof balance, alignment, etc., but doesn't address the importance of proper frog contact/support. I guess it's a given that a low-heeled horse will naturally have frog contact, but what about horses that are not low-heeled? I found an article about navicular synDrOme that along with proper hoof balance, also addresses the importance of establishing a good frog contact/support whether the horse is low or high-heeled. Sure makes a lot of sense.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 9:44 am:
There are several problems with this notion s.miley, the most apparent is that when you trim a foot properly there are certain parameters you follow to get proper balance and length and when that is done where ever the frog lies is where it is going to be. Yes for the majority of barefoot horses this will lead to frog contact with the ground but for those that it does not, which will be most horses in shoes, further trimming is going to give you a thin sole prone to soreness. The other problem with this is that some horses that have CHP are most sore when the frog contacts the ground and do best with a bar shoe protecting the frog and preventing contact.
Certainly you do all you can to promote a healthy frog that receives pressure during weight bearing but this consists mainly of controlling the environment the frog is exposed to and removing the tissues that have become abnormal to prevent further weakening.
DrO
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Member:
lindac
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 10:45 am:
DrO,
I realize there are definite limitations in trying to achieve frog contact when balancing the foot. In the end every horse is an individual and what is successful for one may cause soreness in another. However, there seems to be a wealth of information out there now that is showing along with the standard practises of raising heels and shortening toes, a good frog support is proving to be helpful as well in "some" horses. Just thought reference to this in your CHP article may be useful.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 6:20 am:
There is a wealth of opinion on this s.miley and we actively support the balanced foot concept in our article but I don't know of any science that shows horses with CHP do better with "good frog support". It perhaps is more the opposite: horses which when trimmed balanced have good frog support have a better prognosis. If you are referring to devices to support a weak frog in my opinion they tend to trap moisture and further weaken the frog.
DrO
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Member:
lindac
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 2:50 pm:
Ok DrO, I hear ya!
Please understand that I'm not trying to get into a debate with you on this, but will instead relay to you my tale of woe.
First, we must go back to a time in which the internet did not exist and goolge was a just a slang term used by guys looking at girls. During this era I acquired a TB mare. She was 4 yrs. and was vetted out before purchase. The vet said she had a great set of feet, called them pontoons actually. Anyway, within a few years she was showing lameness. She was radiographed and diagnosed with navicular. It was recommended to raise her heels and shorten her toes, standard practise at the time. She responded beautifully and never took a lame step after that, but she had to stay in wedges/shoes 24/7 from that point on. Since there was no shoeing break during the winter months, her soul/frog was never truly exposed to the natural elements again. Although she stayed sound, what did happen was her lovely concave sole over time disappeared and she became more and more flat footed/thin soled and pretty much pancaked out. Her movement became less fluid. Unfortunately in her twilight years (20+) she suffered from cushings disease and became laminitic. The farrier who worked on her during that time said with her sole being so very flat, it essentially offered her no support and along with her cushing's probably contributed to her laminitic condition. Due to her pancaked out feet putting any type of frog support on her was even more painful and she was humanely put down.
Fast forward to today, the internet, and the art of googleing. Practically every article I have found on the shoeing of CHP/navicular horses along with the traditional practises of raising heels/shortening toes consistently mentions the importance of maintaining good frog contact/support in these horses. When I look back at my mare, once her heels were raised, she had absolutely no frog contact at all. It seems in order to help with one condition, another condition was created that was not particularly good for this horse. The lessor of two evils .... perhaps, or is it? Today, there is so much more knowledge, information, and "opinions" on this condition. There are also many types of new equipment which have been been developed too, for example.
I'm not saying this full support pad is the be all end all, but it does give the horse owner the option of support while keeping the foot open to the elements. It does not trap moisture in the way other support pads you mentioned would, however diligent cleaning would be a must in order to maintain a moisture free environment. And, once again it does come down to the individual horse and if they are comfortable with the support or not. I spoke to a farrier who has been using these pads for 3 years now after attending a symposium in Kentucky and he swears by them. Says he's never had a horse become sore on them and that they have actually helped a horse with badly contracted heels .... after two years of wearing them this horse is now close to normal. He's a firm believer in frog support and doesn't hesitate to put them on laminitic or CHP horses. Like you, he does not like the other support pads out there and feels they offer nothing in terms of support for the horse. He said these pads were the closest thing to the support/protection offered by a heart bar he has found, but without the concern of the bar getting accidentally bent by a rock and pushed up into the frog. Granted this is just one farrier's opinion. The originator of this pad however, does say he's had two horses that showed discomfort, but the hundreds of others he's used them on have not. Once again, the horse is the ultimate indicator.
So here I am full circle. Yes, I agree with you that there is a wealth of "notions/opinions" out there on this topic, but that's my point .... it's out there, not here. Now it may be because you're uncomfortable posting anything that is not based on scientific evidence, I'm not sure??? But when you state, and I quote, "It perhaps is more the opposite: horses which when trimmed balanced have good frog support have a better prognosis." Would it not then follow that a horse when trimmed balanced and shod with good frog support (if tolerated) possibly have a better prognosis too?
In the end there is no worse scenario for an owner than "could have, should have, would have .... if I'd only known". Although I can't change what happened with my mare, if faced with the same problem again today I most certainly would handle the shoeing of said horse differently in terms of frog support. If it doesn't work, the horse will be the first to let me know. If it does help, WOW, I will be so glad that I did the research and found other "notions/opinions" even if they weren't based on scientific evidence. In the end DrO, guess we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 5:34 pm:
S. Miley,
I am curious. Was your mare barefoot when the vet called her feet pontoons? Did you subsequently put shoes on her after you bought her? or not until she was diagnosed with her foot problems.
I have a mare that is just the opposite. She has had very flat feet from the time I bought her, the only time she stays sound is by being barefoot, trimmed with a HPT trim ( KC La Pierre) and letting nature ( and a sand track) develop her feet the way they are supposed to be. Her heels get raised naturally, helped by the correct beveling of her foot ( back to the proper breakover point for her. Her foot winds up with the proper proportions, her walls get thick, her soles thicken up and her feet get so tough that she can train on a stone dust track with no problem. I have seen this happen to her twice. Both times I was forced to put shoes on because I lost the use of the sand track.
Once the shoes go back on, its a downward spiral back to all her lameness problems, which magically disappear when she is barefoot and properly trimmed and balanced.
Right now we are on our third iteration of barefoot back from another round of shoes and lameness. She is up to jogging 4 and a half sound miles a day and as long as the rain stays away and I can keep her on the sand track for her jogging and some of her training. She should be ready to race in about 5 weeks or sooner.
I think barefoot( and the HPT trim) works for her because it corrects the alignment of the bony column in her entire skeleton. When her feet are good, so is everything else including her attitude and her health.
I also did the research on many types of barefoot trims. I even tried some of them, but until I found an HPT( DAEP) trimmer none of the other trims fixed her feet, even though they were supposedly "balanced" trims.
Just my thoughts
Rachelle
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Member:
lindac
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 6:20 pm:
Hi Rachelle,
It was during winter when I bought her, she probably was barefoot, so long ago I can't really remember. I know the vet really liked the fact her feet were big and roomy, which is why he referred to them as pontoons. He was tired of seeing TB's with small feet. Once spring came and I started hacking her down the gravel roads she made it very clear she wasn't comfortable and so I had regular pads and shoes put on. Since I showed the shoes stayed on for show season and then everything was pulled for the winter months. When she was diagnosed with navicular about 4 years later, the pads were changed to wedges and they stayed on year round.
You are so lucky that your mare can go barefoot. I used to have a little 1/2 Arab who couldn't have cared if he stepped on a stone or not, he was tough just like your girl is. Unfortunately for me, back then anyway, there was a shortage of farriers, let alone ones that concentrated on barefoot trimming. Times are changing though and that's good to see. Good luck with your mare.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 8:12 am:
s.miley you will find our description of this process of supporting the frog in such cases under the "Appliance" subtopic of Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Correcting Long Toe Low Heel Foot Conformation.
DrO
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Member:
lindac
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 12:20 pm:
Read the article before. Would prefer to see real pictures before and after the application rather than computer graphics. Frog support only obtain by packing the foot .... geez, well there's a nice moisture free environment. Huh??? Believe you said you didn't like "devices" that trapped moisture as they only tend to weaken the frog.
I give up ..... tired of going in circles.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Oct 24, 2008 - 7:52 am:
smiley, I would have preferred a real foot also but since I did not have any, as explained in the article, I "created" one. The frog support idea is clearly presented as a conjectured idea by others, like in your first post. Quoted from the article: And while the appliance and loading of the heels should prevent contraction some will feel this lack of stimulation would be detrimental to these structures. As for the choice of materials the reference for this material is advocated by Stephen O'Grady a recognized expert in equine podiatry and one of the most sensible folks I know on such problems. Since I have not found the need for such support I can only relate the experience of others here.
DrO
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