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Discussion on Nose quivering
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 7:01 am:
DrO. I remember watching a video when WNV was first getting going around here. One video showed the nose "quivering" as a first sign. I never forgot the video of that nose, it was like the skin was crawling.
Last night I was petting my old mare and noticed that exact same thing, it was so odd...like around her nostrils the skin was "quivering" (best I can describe it) it was exactly like the video I saw.
She seems fine otherwise, but this is so weird, and that video said it was one consistent sign of WNV. Should I be concerned??? She was vaccinated.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 8:08 am:
I have see muscles quiver on healthy horses including the muzzle. I have never heard of this as a important diagnostic clue to WNV infection.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 8:26 am:
HMMM She has something going on. Last night after I noticed the quiver I watched her from the window and she was itching her throat latch on everything (I'm sure this is probably unrelated to the nose thing) Anyway this morning when I fed hay, she didn't even look at it, and went and started itching again. After a closer look (winter fur) she has a baseball sized lump at her throat latch and obviously it itches! I couldn't see anything in there, but the fur is pretty thick.....calling vet
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 8:59 pm:
Dr.O. I talked to the vet this morning, his schedule was full today and I didn't consider this an emergency. He said to call him this afternoon after I checked her again.
This mass was the size of a baseball (hard ball) this morning, was soft and round, located right where the neck meets the head.
Late This afternoon it is hard, flat, and covers more surface area. She is still itching it neurotically, puts her lip up in the air when I itch it for her, because it feels so good.
Other than that she is normal in every way all vitals wnl. Eating well between itchings. Bright eyed and bushy tailed.
I called the vet and reported my findings and he thinks it is a typical histamine reaction and she was probably bit by something. IF she was bit I would guess it was a wasp, they have been acting very mean lately!
The vet said it should be gone tomorrow, the only thing that concerns me was tonight it seemed to be going more down her throat and is still very hard. I did think I could feel something like a stinger or sliver in the center tonight.
Just wondering if you thought this sounded like a "typical histamine" reaction also?
The powers that be also put a dead bird in the lean to today, just so I could continue to worry about the twitching nose and WNV
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 9:25 pm:
Hope that this resolves without further difficulty, Diane.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 8:45 am:
DianeE, no I don't see wasp (typically horses ridden through a yellow jacket's nest with many stings) stings that have such remarkable reactions.
DrO
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 9:31 am:
Diane - I hope you figure it out and it is nothing serious.
Lilo
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 1:54 pm:
Pictures???
so if any of us get that we can recognize it too.
thanks Diane
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 2:27 pm:
Could this relate to a swollen gland or a bad tooth?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 2:56 pm:
Vicki I'm kind of wondering about the tooth thing also, she just had her teeth power floated about a week ago. I'm not sure how long the lumps been there. There is also a small lump where he injected the tranq
I don't know if her nose fasciculation has anything to do with this.
This morning the "lump" was still flat and hard, It's like it deflated and spread (no signs of drainage}. It isn't any smaller nor bigger. She still seems to be fine, so I am not overly concerned at this time, but that nose thing is weird....they are out grazing now, but if she still has the quivering going on when they come up I will try to video it.
I don't think I can get a good pic of the "lump" because of her hair.
Thanks.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 7:02 pm:
Dr.O here are some pics of where the "lump" is I think you can make it out. As stated above it has flattened out, but feels thick under the skin. It was full and soft when I first found it.
Any ideas? I'm still not sure if this needs a vet visit. It still itches like crazy.
It starts about where that line in the board is and ends where that little lump is
A few bites of hay and off to itch
I should probably move this out of WNV her nose twitching seems to have stopped!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Oct 24, 2008 - 7:33 am:
Though there are several possibilities the location is consistent with a "DrOpped thyroid gland" and if that is what it is would not be the reason for itching. You can read more about this at Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses it is the light blue lump.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 24, 2008 - 7:58 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I did go read the swellings article last night and saw the DrOpped thyroid matched the location. The thickened skin, which feels rather deep, and the itching didn't seem to match.
I read the article and the posts and really never found anything that describes this. What COULD be causing the terrible itching? I can't come up with anything from the article.
I considered giving her some bute, but it really doesn't SEEM painful, but I wonder if it would help with inflammation? Tho you would think it would be painful if there was inflammation present???
I'm starting to wonder if this isn't connected to getting her teeth floated somehow. Is there a lymph node in that area? I'm not real familiar with their location? Is there anything I can give her to control the itching? I suppose if it doesn't get better over the weekend I will have the vet check it, but hate to spend the $$$ if it isn't necessary.
Thanks
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 24, 2008 - 8:57 am:
Diane,
Would it be farfetched to question if something got lodged in her throat from the teeth being floated? A small bit of tooth? Or is the location wrong? Or a bad tooth with roots infected waaay down there? DrO can correct my guesses as he knows the anatomy of a horse inside out!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 24, 2008 - 3:53 pm:
This is very far fetched, but the "lump" is exactly where her head rested on the cradle of the head holder when she got her teeth floated, can they get a pressure sore type of thing from that??? Or have been allergic to the material? I can't remember if it was covered or just the bare steel.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2008 - 7:31 am:
I would think that's very likely to be the explanation - not so far fetched IMHO!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2008 - 8:14 am:
Dr.O. I searched "pressure sores" on the net and in humans anyway it says it causes itching and some pain. Only thing I could fine on horses was hock sores. I really am starting to suspect something like that....as you can see from the pic of her itching on the post her head is almost exactly where it would be in the dental cradle.
Do you think this is possible, she wasn't in the "cradle" more than 10 mins. Her thickened skin feels almost like it's "dead". It's still there as of last night, and feels deep....still itches too!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2008 - 8:18 am:
PS I considered moving this to lumps and bumps, but would loose the relevance of the post in the beginning,,,sorry.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2008 - 11:38 am:
DianeE I am afraid those are questions that will have to answered by someone who can examine the horse. I just don't see enough information for me to do anything but guess. Most of these head rests are well padded so injury seems unlikely but certainly not impossible...or possibly some skin infection? Watch for hairloss in either case.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2008 - 1:28 pm:
I guess I'll never know! This morning it had the crusties and seemed a tiny bit smaller, so maybe whatever it is is draining OR she rubbing it raw.
Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2008 - 7:11 pm:
Good luck, Diane. Let us know how this resolves.
Thanks.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 26, 2008 - 8:58 am:
Thanks Vicki, the "lump" is still there,the last 2 days it looked like around her cheek bones was swollen quite a bit, thought maybe she was quidding but it wasn't that, but back to normal today . That was starting to concern me.
She has remained "normal" otherwise, still don't know if this needs a vet call? Is there lymph nodes in that area? It appears there was some slight drainage at one point, but not anymore.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 26, 2008 - 9:26 am:
Dr.O. I found pics of the lymph nodes and it does appear as if one is located where her "lump" is. Is it possible for a "cold" to make the lymph nodes do this? I have heard her coughing some, but didn't really pay attention, figuring it was dust or something. No nasal discharge.
When I described it to the vet he said "she couldn't have picked up strangles"?? I immediately said no because these horses have not been exposed to other horses for over a year.
I suppose she could pick something like that up from dental equipment tho.
Dr.O. I know you can't say what she has, I'm just trying to weigh the possibilities. I really don't want to have a $150 vet call for something that isn't necessary. I guess as long as she seems healthy for the most part it is ok to wait and see! Hope I don't regret it!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 27, 2008 - 8:38 am:
One of the best ways to consider the seriousness of a condition is keeping track of a horses vital signs DianeE, Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Taking Temperature, Pulse, and Respiration.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 27, 2008 - 6:30 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I have been doing that and everything is well wnl. Appetite is good, energy level is normal. Tonight the hair is coming off and I can see the "lump" better it is still the same size, but looks like there may be drainage...don't know if it is from her eternal itching or the "lump" itself. Her right cheek is swollen again too. She is a quidder, but I checked and nothing in there.
Here is a pic of the lump which now seems to have a head. The skin still feels very thick and crinkly, the whole thing is probably 3 in. in diameter.
Swollen cheek
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 27, 2008 - 7:30 pm:
Diane.
Could she possibly have a splinter? Maybe her attempts at itching were really attempts to get the splinter out.
Are you hotpacking it?
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 27, 2008 - 8:25 pm:
Rachelle as you know anything is possible with these animals . Splinter isn't high on my list. I don't see anything in there, but it is in a hard place to view. We have all electric fence except the paddock and they literaly spend 5 mins in there while they eat. I have never seen her rubbing this area on wood....before the "lump", and there are no trees in their pasture. The chipmunk cheek is kind of strange too.
No hot packing, I'm taking the lazy mans way right now and hoping whatever it is will resolve it self. I don't have enough daylight anymore to do much extra, when I get home, And other than the itching she seems just fine.
Just a weird thing though, I will keep a close eye on, if things get worse I will have the vet out. Strange it all started happening shortly after getting her teeth floated. We DO know how horses like to keep us guessing with coincidences tho.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 27, 2008 - 10:38 pm:
HMMMM after viewing And enlarging the other pics and the one above it does appear to be something sticking in there. I couldn't see anything, maybe the flash from the camera caught it. Will look closer with a flashlight tomorrow.
Dr.O. could the "lump" cause the cheek swelling?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 - 7:52 am:
Possibly a abscess trying to work its way out and yes regional lymph nodes may enlarge around such abscesses. Or perhaps a wound from the scratching?
It is better to encourage external drainage rather than just wait, as sometimes they may drain internally setting up further abscesses, for more see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Abscesses and Localized Infection.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 - 10:00 pm:
I think the old lady just want me to have something to worry about since Hanks hooves are behaving. Tonight it was draining very well and down to about half the size, her cheek is normal again...still itching like crazy tho! Do abscesses cause itching? Or is she just self medicating. She is very good at taking care of herself if left to her own devices, I guess after 29 yrs. she has learned a few things and I'll let her itch away! (at least until this is resolved) which seems well on it's way now. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2008 - 8:23 am:
Though I don't often see it, certainly itching could accompany some type of abscesses.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2008 - 11:42 am:
Glad to hear of the improvement, Diane.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2008 - 6:48 pm:
Thanks Vicki, she decided to throw in a new "symptom" tonight...diarrhea.
So now the "lump" isn't flat anymore it's round and hard again, about the size of a small orange. Vitals and everything else is "normal" except now the diarrhea.. cow patty like....one was pretty watery.
After supper...before she could start itching I hot packed it for awhile, she didn't seem to like that much OR maybe would rather have itched. After packing I smeared icthamol on it and at least she didn't go itch.
Dr.O. could the lump she had in her cheek have caused the diahrrea from not chewing well?
The vet is coming Mon. to do the cow/calf fall work and I plan on having him look at her....unless she gets worse. For some reason I just don't like the looks of her right now, somethings weird, but I can't quite finger it.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2008 - 7:33 pm:
Dr.O. sorry one more question. I was considering giving her some bute tomorrow morning, but since the diarrhea showed up I plan on giving her banamine instead,, she is rather intolerant of bute anyway.
Her arthritis seems to be having a bit of a flare up with the cooler weather. Do you see any problem with nasids considering her problems above? I kind of figured it MIGHT help with that also, but at least wouldn't hurt. I have "figured" wrong so many times though I thought I would double check. Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 30, 2008 - 11:01 am:
Sorry to hear about this perplexing development, Diane and it will be interesting to hear what Dr. O has to say. Please keep us informed.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 30, 2008 - 7:25 pm:
With normal vital signs, no I cannot think of a relation between a abscess on the throat and a bout of diarrhea and don't think the NSAID's contraindicated by anything you have posted so far.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 12:53 pm:
Diane, My oldest guy ("Buddy") will get diarrhea from almost any kind of stress, including if he is in pain. If his arthritis is flaring up or he is working on an abscess, he will become quite loose until the pain level improves. I have not experienced this with my other horses, just my "Bud."
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 12:21 pm:
Vicki that may have been it, or maybe she ate something weird. The icthomal seems to be doing the trick on her "lump" she has finally quit itching and it is about half the size. So hopefully on the road to recovery (whatever it was) The chipmonk cheek is now completely gone too!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 - 3:55 am:
Glad to hear that it's all resolving. It's always such a relief to have them well again, and SOMETIMES they allow us a short "normal" period before they think up some mysterious new symptoms to baffle us with.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 - 11:37 am:
Thanks, the "lump" is still shrinking, and now it is oozing some blood...hope that's normal? I guess there is no normal, because I don't know what it is?. Everything else has returned to normal...including chipmonk cheek and diarrhea, so I guess she is getting better! I did see her itching it yesterday, but she isn't as possessed about it anymore. I wish I knew if it was the teeth floating that caused this, I always dread having her teeth floated. One time she quit eating for awhile. Since I started using my vet to do it rather than the equine dentist she has done well...except this year!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2008 - 2:21 pm:
Sounds as though an infection or inflammation is subsiding but now you must get this place cleared without a re-infection. Many years ago my old "Buddy" had what had been diagnosed as a sarcoid lump on the side of his face for a very long time. He used to scrub it, which eventually caused it to get infected, swell quite a bit and then break open and drain. I treated this open wound, which after it was healed, the whole thing mysteriously disappeared (maybe it wasn't a sarcoid?). While healing, bloody serum did drain. I don't know what you are dealing with, but hope that it also disappears! Let us know how it is going, Diane.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 7:53 am:
I would put tooth floating low on the list of possibilities.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 6:36 am:
Dr.O. A few weeks ago we had a calf with a jaw abscess...it resolved itself, but took quite awhile.
Yesterday the cow/calves got worked through the shoot. The vet found 4 more with abscesses. I was working and hubby can't remember what he said they were...he said the vet said they were common and treated them for it. Something about some kind of bacteria in the ground.
We checked the calves later and looked at the ones with the abscesses and They were exactly like Flashes. I find this highly coincidental. Do you know of anything that causes this in calves, that could also affect horses? They had the chipmonk cheek too + the throat latch abscess.
Flashes is 90% better now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 8:23 am:
Hello DianeE,
The way to do this is first identify what was causing the calf abscesses and then see if there are cases where horses are effected. Call your vet and see what he thought was causing the abscesses.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 4:27 pm:
Hmmm well I called the vet and asked him. Obviously hubby didn't understand! He said he was thinking about it at home last night and really isn't sure what might be causing them. He first thought it was the one we bolused for scours and maybe the bolus "gun" had done it....but they weren't the ones we had treated. I asked him IF he thought Flashes "lump" COULD be related, and he said he really didn't know!
She is healing fine now and the calf that had it first is better...except he had an ear infection, which makes it look like his ear is falling off
Was just curious if we had some kind of "bug" going around that was affecting horse and calves...weird! Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 6:43 pm:
Diane, some abscesses in such locations can be caused by imbedded grass seeds or weeds such as foxtail where the foreign object imbeds and infection follows. But you might want to look at the site below (other sites on this subject -- lumpy jaw -- list some of the other possibilities that are similar in the way that they present).
https://cattletoday.info/lumpy_jaw.htm
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 6:47 am:
Thanks Vicki, when smudge (calf) had the "lump" I looked up everything...I do read cattle Today.
"lumpy Jaw" does not fit. Their abscesses are like Flashes, in the throat latch area, with the cheek swelling being secondary. I guess we'll never know. When I talked to the vet he seemed stumped too.
So coincidental tho..lump in throat latch, chipmonk cheek, diahrrea, all the same as Flash.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 7:46 am:
UCK I searched throat abscess, itching, horse and cattle. Dr.O. warbles wouldn't burrow there (throat latch) would they??? The flies on the cows this year were terrible. I just de wormed with ivermectin last week.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 10:22 am:
No this is not a common warbles location.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 4:02 pm:
It sure IS strange, Diane and I hope that all will heal up completely for you.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2008 - 9:35 am:
Dr.O. this mare continues to confuse me. First I will say the "lump" is about gone, and vitals are normal.
This morning when feeding I noticed her rib cage was heaving as she was breathing. I did go and read the articles on COPD. I have heard her cough twice since the "lump" showed up...not at all before that. So whether this is connected I'm unsure. Could she develop heaves that quickly?
I took a video of it, because I'm not sure exactly what heaves looks like and was hoping maybe it would give you an idea. Her "lump" still has a slight swelling, but for the most part is gone and healing. I can't help but suspect MAYBE it is related? I know you can't tell from afar, but was wondering if the breathing LOOKS like heaves? When the horses had their wellness check this spring, vet said her lungs sounded fine.
https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/horses/?action=view¤t=0 01.flv
lump
https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/horses/?action=view¤t=0 06.flv
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2008 - 11:33 am:
Need to see what Dr. O has to say but I am not feeling that the two are generally related, although pain of any kind can cause an increase in respiration rate.
A few coughs this time of year (as long as it is not persistent) is sort of normal, I think, with the change of weather, increased hay consumption, dryer air, and more time spent indoors. I have noticed a few coughs with a couple of mine but it did not progress into anything.
Your mare sure has rubbed that lumpy area! Do you feel like it is continuing to heal?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2008 - 12:33 pm:
Wow poor baby gurl...you said she is 90% better, Yikes it must have looked horrible. Is that medicine on it or drainage?
It looks like she is loving that hay.
Ps...my mares nose quivers like yours, but shes very healthy,.
Hang in there D.
Leslie
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2008 - 12:40 pm:
Thanks Vicki, her resp isn't really higher, it just appears more labored. I haven't heard her couggh in a week or so, and when she did it was a couple short ones. They are fed on the ground, hay isn't dusty...I do shake it out before feeding. They aren't ever in a barn, just the lean to. I know it isn't temperature related...30 degrees and snow today As far as pain, perhaps her arthritis, but it seems to have "cooled" down since her last flare up and she is moving around well.
Her "lump" is healing and she doesn't itch anymore
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 7:27 am:
Her lump is gone, just needs to heal now. That's icthamol on her hair.
Now that I've had all my possible guesses, and after researching for awhile (cold and snowing)!
I found a lot of similar pictures of horses with the same lump (in different spots) including where Flashes is, terrible itching. It would make sense..An infected tick bite. In the past weeks, we had record warmth and they were all over. I would never spot them on her, her coat is getting very thick for winter. Hopefully if she had anymore the ivermec de-worming took care of it!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 9:31 am:
What are all her vital signs DianeE?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 10:11 am:
Dr.O. her vitals are all normal. The "heaving" in her abdomen is still there. Her nostrils aren't flared, nor does she seem to have difficulty breathing.
Temp...99.9
resp...20 I think or maybe 10..sorry not good at that one. will check again. Don't have a stethoscope so going by the abdominal "heaving"
Pulse 36.
Does her breathing look like heaves? The other horses don't have such an exaggerated "heave" when they breathe. She is 29 yo if that makes a difference.
Thanks
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 11:37 am:
Hey Diane,
Maybe soon you'll come around to my emerging philosophy: never stare at an elderly horse! If her vitals are normal and her behavior indicates that she's cheerful and comfortable, at least you can rest easy that she's having a pretty good day.
I always try to remind myself that a lack of obvious symptoms is almost always good news-- when the bones come through the skin or the head DrOps off onto the ground, the diagnosis is easy but the prognosis is typically much worse.
DrO may find this absolutely unscientific, but as an experiment, I went and stared at my elderly, sway-backed gelding's flank/abdomen. I don't suspect him of respiratory distress, but he does have more movement there than my young athletes. I think as their backs DrOp and they lose condition, the movement of the diaphragm may become more pronounced while they breathe. Or maybe everything loses elasticity. Note that my gent is 2-3 Hennecke points lighter than your girl, so everything in that area is a bit less pronounced than in your video. So maybe this is normal for her age, condition, etc.?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 12:18 pm:
LOL Elizabeth, if you notice up above I said I was taking the wait and see route. I guess I just get too curious about things.
Glad to hear your oldie breathes like that too. I really don't want to try to manage heaves!
I will start throwing hay and ignoring them again. If I wouldn't have went and petted her that day I probably would have never known about the lump, until it was gone. Never would have looked at her breathing either.
I am finding out with some things ignorance is bliss! I don't look at Hanks hooves anymore unless he's lame....that's a start anyway!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 3:14 pm:
Hi Diane,
I'm not saying that she's definitely fine, just that you should remember that she might be fine. I have several in my own herd that I am considering tattooing with the words "stop staring at me!" So I know the synDrOme well.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 3:45 pm:
Diane and Elizabeth,
I think I will use that mantra as well.
I too have the "staring synDrOme"
L
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 8:34 am:
DianeE,
Your horse has a mild expiratory dyspnea in the film, note the "pressing effort" to expel air. There are several problems, infectious bronchitis for instance, that can cause a mild expiratory dyspnea. With a normal temp and heart rate heaves would be at the top of the list.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2008 - 7:01 am:
Thanks Dr.O. If this is a mild case of heaves does she need to go on a strict heave diet? She doesn't cough. Is kept outside with a lean to for shelter.
COULD this be age or pain related rather than heaves?
Can the vet tell if it's heaves with a stethoscope?
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2008 - 7:51 am:
I would treat all cases of heaves as we outline in the article on heaves. I don't associate aging with a primary dyspnea. A good exam, including auscultation, should help better define the problem no matter what it is.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2008 - 7:15 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I read the articles. A couple questions, then I'll quit staring at the old girl.
Do I understand the article correctly that the breathing (as my mare is) can come and go? It is when they are exposed to the "alergen" that causes the heavey breathing in the early stages anyway?
Last night as I was feeding I remembered I had the vet out last winter, because Flash had what appeared to be a heave line and was doing that weird breathing(still does sometimes)....that's what jiggled my memory.
When the vet came out he gave her an exam and listened intently to her heart and lungs. When done he said that they sounded great. I asked him why the heave line and weird breathing. He said he didn't know, but highly suspected her arthritis which makes her walk (differently) behind and it was from using her abdominal muscles differently. I accepted that and treated her arthritis as it flared and really never noticed it much after that..the weird breathing. The line remains especially if she moves certain ways.
This last episode of "heaving" has coincided with an arthritis flare up. I have treated her with banamine and the "heaving" has stopped.
I very rarely here her cough...no more than the other 2 anyway.(a couple times a year) She does run up the big hill occasionally and coughing does not follow nor heavy breathing. She stays with the geldings all day moving about.
My vet does come up with some off the wall things, so I wanted to run this by you.
The only thing that keeps me from thinking this is heaves is she doesn't cough, breathe hard, isn't exercise intolerant (for her). I have owned her forever and her exposure to dust and mold has been minimal. I know it's impossible to keep all dust and mold away, but I have done my best in feeding hay that isn't dusty or moldy. Fed on the ground outside, except in bad weather. I always shake it out. Thanks
I will have the vet examine her again if the "heaving" starts again. Is it coincidence the banamine fixed it? Is it possible her arthritis flares COULD cause this?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2008 - 7:51 am:
Diane,
I have the one mare who shows the heave line every late winter/spring. She was our rescue baby who was a skeleton when we got her, and I suspect that is why she has problems sometimes. (she's 6 now) She never coughs though, and the vet has checked her and finds nothing different listening to her lungs, which confuses me.
A couple of days ago, I noticed all 4 horses seemed to be "pushing" to breath, and I could see a line at their flanks. It was also the first morning it was cold. So I was thinking of this post, wondering what the heck? How can all 4 horses be acting like they have heaves? And the only thing different being the temperature.
It is so much better not to LOOK at them so closely, lol! And the buggers were all fine a couple of hours later, after the hay was gone, and the sun out. Weird, very weird.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2008 - 6:49 am:
Angie it is weird! It is quite possible she has heaves I guess and I would like to try to keep her as comfortable as possible in her golden years (she deserves it!)
Her "heave line" is only visible on her left side..coincidently? that is her worst side as far as arthritis. Which got me wondering Are "heave lines" on both sides or can they be one sided?
I really do need to stop looking at her I guess! She seems happy and active for her age. I just dread the day I lose her. She's been a part of our family for about 25 yrs. and a joy to own.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2008 - 12:06 pm:
It doesn't seem like Banamine would fix a true case of "heaves."
What Angie says about all of her horses appearing as though they had the heaves is very interesting. Especially since she says that the weather had just turned colder.
When the air is colder and drier, the body must make an adjustment, and for some individuals that may take a bit longer. Before that adjustment is reached, I believe that the oxygenation level in the horse may be lower. The respiration system then must work harder to normalize the situation.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2008 - 7:46 am:
I have not seen a arthritis associated expiratory dyspnea DianeE.
DrO
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2008 - 12:44 pm:
D
How is old baby gurl today?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2008 - 1:05 pm:
I'm taking the don't look don't see approach with her. If I don't examine her everything looks great! Her swelling is gone...quit looking at her breathing!
Opened the gate to the pasture and she galloped/bucked in her own arthritic way and is happy! So be it...no more looking for trouble, mine don't seem to come up with "normal" diagnostic type problems. So maybe it's just my imagination!
Thanks for asking
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2008 - 1:21 pm:
AWWWW "she galloped/bucked in her own arthritic way " GOOD girl!
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