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  Discussion on Heaves, Multiple Allergies and Making It Easier for the Barn Manager
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New Member:
jhyrick

Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2008 - 6:20 pm:

In March of last year, my older Arabian mare (never ill) starting coughing a dry, non-productive cough. A week later, after ruling out disease processes, she was transported to Cornell Univ for Repro ET work. She was there most of the summary (end of July returned back to Western NY). At one point, the Repro Vet called an internal medicine vet to check her, and I was told they put her on Equihist, but never told anything else regarding possible allergies or RAD. She returned to a farm, not too close to me, where they told me she coughed sometimes, and other days not. She's now a few miles from me, and after hearing and seeing her coughing episodes, I had a Vet exam her and do an Endoscopic exam.
T-100, 1F Increased bronchovesicular sounds in both lung fields. Crackles and wheezes in both dorsal lung fields. No palpable abnormalities of the trachea, larynx, submandibular or retropharyngeal lymph nodes. Endo: Grade 3.5 of 4 mucous in trachea. No blood. Airways not inflamed. Guttural pouch openings clear. Parynx, larynx,and nasal passages normal. Suspect reactive airway disease/heaves. I then asked for a CBC w/differential with came back normal. A serum Allegy Testing was done. Spot Allergy Report (Spectrum)revealed 22 high positives (200-399) and 4 borderline (150-199). Due to her being a breeding mare, I didn't want her on steroids, so we have her on low dose Ventipulmin Syrup. She is high on Bluebrass, Orchard, Timothy and Johnson Grass (not Alfalfa)
Corn shows as very high (207) as well as various molds and fungi (Stemphylium, Cephalosporium,Phoma,Fusarium, pullularia, Penicillium and Cephalothecium). Being a newer boarder with this convenient facility, I don't want to be thought of as a "problem boarder". I would pay for a customer mix if it would be beneficial to my mare. I'm thinking the obvious is to put her on alfalfa cubes, but should I ask them to add beat pulp and bran? She's on Nutrena Senior pellets as well. I don't even know if those contain corn.

I've read varying articles on the effectiveness of serum testing. Before I order allergy shots, should I find another vet that can do transdermal testing? (This one does not do them)
Member:
jhyrick

Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2008 - 6:23 pm:

One more question please. Do the Fungi she's allergic to listed above mean she can also be allergic to the antibiodics that are produced from them?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2008 - 9:35 am:

While the articles conclusions may vary, the research on the current status of serum testing is clear: it does not effectively test for either skin or respiratory allergens as it has a high level of both false negatives and false positives. Neither do I think that intradermal testing is indicated at this point and though better than serum testing suffers from the same problem of lack of specificity and sensitivity. If the diagnosis is If the diagnosis is some type of noninfectious lower airway disease we would strongly recommend you follow the recommendations in the article. If she is pregnant I can understand your desire to avoid steroids but it just makes aggressive management as described in the article that much more important.

The particular allergen free diet you settle on is not important. What is important is that it be well balanced and meets your mares specific needs for energy.

The allergy is not to the mold itself but to the airborne fungal spores. So an allergy to antibiotics would not be expected to develop from this cause.
DrO
New Member:
paulinev

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2008 - 1:15 am:

Dear Dr O
My vet has just detected a lot of slime in my horse's throat.
I am suspecting a developing COPD since it seems to be connected to exercise and the cough improves as we exercise .
What I would like to know is whether the slime could be caused by the hay molds. Is slime always a factor in Allergy-related coughs or not necessarily?
She has had had a snotty nose during the past winter which has been treated.
This has been cleared but the cough is not stopping...(but seems to happen only when we exercise- and also with a lot of dust being created).
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2008 - 9:36 am:

Welcome Pauline,
I am uncertain what you mean by "slime in the horses's throat". Generally respiratory secretions are either serous, mucoid, or mucopurulent. Even with such a classification the number and type cells found in the secretion is important for differentiating the different causes of lower airway diseases, for more on this see Diseases of Horses » Respiratory System » Chronic Lower Airway Disease. Another thing that might be described as you have is pharyngeal plagues growing on the wall but again sampling and determining the type cells present is important for a diagnosis.
DrO
PS: Rather than placing questions about your horse at the bottom of another member's post, you should "Start a New Discussion". There will be no confusion between the two questions, help keep Horseadvice more organized, and more folks are likely to see your post so you will receive quicker and more responses that way.

You will find the "Start New Discussion" button at the bottom of the list of already present discussions found under every article. For more on this see Help & Information » Posting Guidelines or where did my post go?.
Thanks
Member:
jhyrick

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2008 - 10:13 am:


Thank you for your so very prompt reply! My mare is not currently pregnant, but I'd like to breed her this spring if it would not be a detriment to her health. I'm always concerned about steroids and the effect on the endocrine system. But, if they would be beneficial now, I of course would agree to use them. Can you recommend an equine nutritionist that could provide a diet recommendation for her size and weight. I'm attempting to make this as easy as possible for the barn manager that just inherited my horses. Joni
New Member:
warthog

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2008 - 9:34 pm:

After eight years of intermittent coughing even when the hay was actually washed we finally switched our 26 year old paso fino mare and her two paddock buddies to double compressed alfalfa. She had been on timothy alfalfa for several years but stayed too thin regardless of supplements, amount of feed (triple crown senior and high fat supplements)and continued to cough. The results were absolutely amazing almost immediately. She ceased coughing totally, gained weight and despite rather severe arthritis in her knees is quite perky and looks fantastic.

We also determined that she had anhyDrOsis and the combination of the allergies and the inability to sweat had her gasping for air in the large pasture she and her friends were in. We moved her to Florida on a sand base now so much less dust but she continued to cough until we removed all hay and replaced it with the double compressed alfalfa. She will cool herself by splashing water on herself from their 100 gallon water tub and she now has much more shade and she's like a new horse. She looks ten years younger.

She had foundered numerous times before we purchased her - we were unaware of this - but we have always fed high protein high fat low carb diet and her feet according to our Florida vet look great and she had never foundered in the 9 years we have owned her. I'm posting this in case anyone may be concerned with the high alfalfa diet for a founder prone or older horse with allergies. It has really been a life saver for this mare anyway. My main concern would be excess calcium as I understand it is excreted by the kidneys but unless renal problems were suspected or documented I would just keep an eye on the horse after switching gradually to alfalfa. One could also add beet pulp since the calcium level in it is not as high as alfalfa.

We do also feed all our horses MSM and we have 14 with varying ages, backgrounds and heredity and all have really great feet I might add but I have read that since MSM is a sulfur source it's also helpful with lung and allergy problems. I don't know if there is documentation of this but we've fed MSM for 8 years and all our horses are barefoot, most self trim at correct angles and when there was an outbreak of influenza at paso fino nationals in 07 I think, although our horses did become ill it was very very minimal and required no treatment. So there is anecdotal evidence MSM helps with upper respiratory problems as well as helping with hoof health. If anyone has found any definitive studies on it I'd appreciate your passing them on as this is a very cheap supplement.

So you might want to try alfalfa and perhaps MSM also. It's $4 a pound and you feed a really small amount of the pure crystals. We actually had good luck with benedryl with this mare so we knew it was allergy but we really wanted to avoid the problem rather than continue to give allergy medication for the rest of her life. We got very lucky with her. Good luck with your problem and please let us know what works.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2008 - 7:12 am:

Concerning the short term or even the careful long term use of the antiinflammatory group of steroids there is very little concern about effecting the endocrine system adversely so that the fertility of your horse would be effected. AS to feeding your horse I would recommend you follow the suggestions in our article Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses.

warthog, we support the idea of feeding hay cubes for COPD horses but have not found MSM helpful. But note that it is the form of the hay and how it is processed that is important, cubed grass hay would help prevent the COPD symptoms just as well.
DrO
New Member:
warthog

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2008 - 10:30 am:

I've also used alfalfa cubes with no problems. They're just more expensive than the 1500 pound double compressed alfalfa bales and more difficult to handle in the quantity needed to use as a full feed. I will note though that the double compressed bales are more dusty than cubes and we had eye irritation in one horse being fed the double compressed but a fly mask solved that problem. Despite the additional dust we had no respiratory allergies or illness from them and have been feeding them for a year now to the allergic mare and her 2 buddies.

I have no horse evidence done in a scientific manner that proves that MSM is effective in promoting stronger hooves since I feed a high grade grain with all sorts of additives including biotin and probably methionine but in a very small amount - 1.25 pounds per day per horse. According to the manufacturer our horses need additional supplements but so far no problems with them. Hoof quality did not change when I changed from tipton 44 to alfalfa and back again over an 12 month period. I'm still looking for studies on MSM which seem to be scarce - perhaps because it's so cheap.

There is some anecdotal evidence that it promotes hair growth also.
Member:
jhyrick

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2008 - 10:54 am:

I just spoke to the Nutrena Equine Nutritionist.
She has indicated that the Senior feed has less than 1% corn, and since serum testing can be suspect, she suggested a product called "Stretch Hay Extender" for additional fiber, along with the alfalfa cubes, and more senior feed. No more than a combination of 20 lbs per day, preferably in 3 feedings. Senior being 50% of the combination. Eliminating then the beet pulp which is given more for additional roughage.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2008 - 7:21 am:

How is the alfalfa dried prior to baling warthog?

JG what is in the Stretch Hay Extender and how much does it cost?
DrO
Member:
jhyrick

Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 2:52 pm:

https://www.shagbarklumber.com/PDF/Nutrena%20BeetPulpTimesSept.%20Final.pdf

The Nutrena Hay Extender is Soybean hulls. I understand that Blue Seal also makes one, but did not compare, as I was in a rush to try something different.

I can't find my itemized receipt from the Feed Store, but I purchased 2 50lb bags of Senior, 4 50lb bags of the Alfalfa cubes (made in Ontario Canada) and 4 50lb bags of the Nutrena Extender.
The total was $123.00

I'll check the Alfalfa bags more closely tomorrow, as I'll be at that barn.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 8:32 am:

Thank JG,
The soybean hulls will substitute well for the beet pulp as a source of roughage. I have found this additional information:
NatureWise Stretch Hay Extender
Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein (% Min) 11%
Fat (% Min.) 2%
Fiber (Max.) 20%

Key Super Fiber Ingredient: Soybean Hulls •
A form of highly digestible fiber • Small pelleted form to prevent sorting or choking • May be soaked for added palatability in older horses or horses with dental issues. • Less soaking time than beet pulp! It only takes about 10 minutes to soften Pellets! • Calcium & Phosphorus balanced • Yeast Culture for enhanced fiber digestion • Probiotics for a healthy digestive system.

Of course those who read us regularly understand that the proiotic/yeast information is conjectural but the balanced cal-phos is a plus. I also wonder what the minimum roughage is and I am still interested in the price.

As beet pulp becomes a increasingly scarce commodity I suspect lots of folks are going to have to find alternatives.
DrO
Member:
jhyrick

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 4:25 pm:

Hi Dr. O,

I finally found my receipt. I paid $11.75 for the 50 lb bag of Alfalfa Cubes, $9.15 for the Nutrene Stretch Hay Extender (50 lb bag) and $14.00 for 50lb's of the Life Design Senior by Nutrena.

Also, the Equine Nutritionist (Heather from Nutrena) confirmed that the suggested retail price on the Stretch Hay Extender is $9.25 per 50 lb bag.

When I asked about the minimum roughage in this product is, her reply was stated as "The whole feed with the exception of the probiotic and yeast is all considered roughage.
Designed specifically as a hay replacement product." If you'd like additional information, I could provide you with her name and number, but I'm not comfortable posting it on the web.

Thank you for all you do for us horse people. Joni
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 - 11:40 am:

Thanks you JG,
The nutritionist seems to be confused over the definition of roughage, which could loosely be defined as the "nondigestible structural carbohydrate portion of the feed". I will take it to mean she thinks it is adequate for substituting for a forage but a more informative number on the bag would be the "minimum" and not the "maximum" amount. Generally the absolute minimum roughage for a food to be considered a substitute is considered around 16% but 20% is a better minimum.
DrO
Member:
jhyrick

Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 5:05 pm:

Updating this post. My now 23 year old mare was well managed this past winter and spring with the alfalpha cubes, stretch hay extender and senior feed. The only problem that developed was her becoming overweight. We also included Tri-Hist powder at 1 scoop 2 x daily. No coughing, not even with running around the arena or now the pasture with her yearling pasture mate.

Now, I have cleared, seeded (with rye grass mostly as she didn't show an allergy to that), fenced and built 2 stalls at my home, so I can keep her here in the summer and early fall when I am not traveling. I have them out about 12 hours a day, and the stalls I built are very airy with windows and exhaust fans.

My problem is Tri-Hist. My old, wise mare will not eat it voluntarily, or mixed in her food. She is also an expert at avoiding the feed through fly control product and the daily wormer. I'm thinking that maybe most of that ended up being dumped out at the boarding facility near my home. I have managed (with much difficulty) to use a 50cc syringe with Kayro syrup to shoot it down her, but she is getting very wise to that and I end up with some down my arm. She doesn't like molasses at all.

After rambling, one of my questions is...can compounding work to create a liquid or an oral paste, and is there a recommended compounding pharmacy? Or - any other suggestions how to administer the Tri-Hist? Or - any other Antihistimine/Expectorant that may be more palatable?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 4:02 pm:

There is a local pharmacy near me that will create compounds into a paste form but a written prescription from a Veterinarian is required.

Somehow I have always managed to get the meds down my horses without requiring the service.

My horse who had to take 40 doxycycline pills twice daily hates it if his feed is made wet but loves his feed and would eat a concoction of the crushed pills mixed with a small amount of applesauce and Karo syrup that I mixed into his feed.

When I at first used a larger amount of applesauce, he would not eat that mixed into his feed so had to discard that batch.

Trial and error . . .

Good luck and if all fails I would try to get a paste compound made, however one of mine has recently decided he no longer wants to swallow Banamine paste so that can happen to.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 - 2:27 pm:

JG, Trihist is pyrilamine which has not been shown to an effective antihistamine in horses at least at commonly used dosages. For more on this and other histamines see Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Antihistamine Use in Horses. However if your horse is well controlled why antihistamines, and if not well controlled further environmental improvements are indicated.
DrO
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