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Discussion on Question about Soaking Hay
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2008 - 9:38 pm:
Hi Dr. O,
My mare has had a flare of her chronic laminitis. Along with bute and stall rest in deep shavings I am soaking her hay to reduce the sugar content. I have been soaking it for one hour, then draining the excess water prior to feeding.
I have someone coming twice a day to feed for me over the Christmas holidays, and she would like to leave the hay soaking in between feedings so that it will be ready to feed when she comes to the farm. That means that the hay will soak in water for twelve hours. Temperatures are forecast to range between overnight lows in the twenties and thirties to daytime temperatures in the forties, so the hay will be subject to freezing but not excessive daytime heat.
How long can the hay safely soak? Is freezing a problem? If twelve hours is too long, is thirty minutes adequate? Thanks.
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Member:
huf5
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2008 - 11:08 pm:
Hi, I know this isn't exactly what you were looking for, but just a FYI:
"Horses and ponies with insulin resistance and weight/laminitis problems are very sensitive to the sugar content of their diet, even the amount of sugar in a grass hay. Soaking the hay can reduce the sugar up to 30%. However, when soaked to remove potassium or sugar, mature hays will show less of a reduction because the hay’s outer covering is more impervious to water. If you are soaking to remove sugar or potassium, it’s wise to soak a sample of hay, then allow part of it to dry completely and have the dried sample retested for sugar or potassium to make sure it really is as low as you hoped."
https://www.myhorse.com/health/feeds/with_horse_hay_wetter_can_be_better.aspx#top
Will keep looking 
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Member:
huf5
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2008 - 11:10 pm:
Here is some more of the same article:
"How Much Water
Most horses really enjoy soaked hay, but some miss the sugar that soaking removes. If you are only soaking to help chewing and digestion, fluff the hay slightly and soak in just enough water to cover it with the hay packed tightly into the soaking container. This will ensure that more water gets soaked into the hay. There will be little or no excess water remaining after soaking, so the sugar will stay with the hay.
When soaking to remove surface dirt and mold spores, it’s wise to fluff the hay slightly and rinse it very thoroughly before you begin. This carries away most of the dirt and surface mold in the initial rinse so that it does not soak back onto the hay’s surface. A relative short soak, but with agitation of the hay a few times during soaking, will then remove additional dirt and mold.
Soaking to leach out sugar or potassium should also be done after fluffing the hay, but requires longer soaking times for best effect. A minimum of one hour in cold water or a half-hour in hot water is best. The more water in the soaking container, the more efficient the sugar and potassium removal will be. However, when soaking in hot weather, you can get bacterial overgrowth very rapidly, so in those cases don’t soak longer than two hours."
There is also a HOW TO DO IT paragraph on the same page ;-)
Hope that helps
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Member:
huf5
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2008 - 11:21 pm:
ps: there is this PDF also from safergrass.org
There is a paragraph about soaking hay and how long for:
https://www.safergrass.org/pdf/SoakReport.pdf
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 5:48 am:
JoAnn we used to soak hay at the barn I worked for, and it let it soak between feeding even in the winter. We kept it in the barn where the temps would be around freezing. We didn't have any problems. I suppose if it got below freezing long enough you could have a hayscicle and wouldn't be able to get it out of the tub.
Can you find some stemmy 1st crop hay to feed while you away? I've never had to soak that stuff for Hank.
What is the source of your horses laminitis?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 9:56 am:
I agree with Diane that soaking for 12 hours in cold weather should be safe and the only problem freezing causes is one of handling.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 10:34 am:
Maybe if you cover the soaking bucket it will stay liquid longer. You can also do it in an insulated cooler.
Boy, sounds like a miserable job in the cold. Hope horsey appreciates all you do!
Erika
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 11:00 am:
The insulated cooler sounds like a good idea, esp. if you start with warm water. If your barn has a tack room that's inside the barn dragging it in there over night helps, too. I mix beet pulp the night before and put it in the tack room. This a.m. the beet pulp was frosty, but not frozen.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 11:09 am:
Hi JoAnn,
If you have a safe sheltered place with power, you can set the tub/bucket of soaking hay on one of those heated electric bases (I use them for the pony's mush and the hens' waterer) to prevent freezing. Soaking hay doesn't freeze at 32'F, but it may freeze overnight at 20'F. Those are low power devices, and very handy in borderline cold. They quit being useful (in my experience) at about 10'F.
My feedstore sells a couple versions.
Here is an example:
https://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=FI-HP-125
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 11:28 am:
Thanks Dr. O and Diane and Miriam.
Thank you for the articles Miriam, I had seen the one from Safegrass but not the one from My Horse. I've got a pretty good system worked out, not that its any fun handling heavy wet hay in the winter!
Diane, I think that her original bout of laminitis was caused by being overfed. I say, "I think" because she belonged to a friend who lived a couple of states away so I only had phone reports about what happened. She had always been an easy keeper, and I know you know how tough they can be to manage!
I have had her (or should I say, she has had me) for the past eight years and she is now twenty-one. She was diagnosed as having Cushings six years ago when she refoundered. Pergolide has made her management easier but she always remains on the edge of active laminitis, even at a healthy weight and limited grazing.
This last round of laminitis is a bit of a puzzle to me. She had been doing fantastic all summer and fall, much better than I had ever hoped for after a bad bout two winters ago when the temperatures soared and we had green grass in January and I didn't catch it in time.
She did run really hard with my gelding a couple of weeks ago, and was sore the next day, so my vet feels that its more of a mechanical founder. However, with cortisol levels running high all through the fall and into the winter, maybe she was on the verge and the running just tipped her over.
I am going to get my hay tested as soon as I can figure out the logistics of that. Unfortunately what I have is fescue. I didn't realize that that was not a good choice for the laminitic horse until my most recent reading. Somehow I had missed that bit of information (sigh). I've fed it for two winters without a problem, but I know that hay is different (and horses are different too) every year. Its second cutting, and doesn't look that rich, but of course you can't know for sure just by looking. Prior to this I've always fed orchard grass. I don't know if I can find stemmy first cutting, hay is hard to find this late in the year. I thought first cutting was to be avoided because of the spring sugar content?
I appreciate your input Diane, I know that you have learned a lot about all of this through your experiences with Hank. Its so hard to see her so uncomfortable. I wish I had a magic wand that would make her all better.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 11:38 am:
Thanks Erika, Sara and Elizabeth, I hadn't seen your posts before I posted. I had stepped away from the computer to talk with my vet. Good ideas, all of you. I think I'll head over to Tractor Supply and see what I can find.
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Member:
huf5
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2008 - 11:47 am:
Hi Jo Ann, I hope that everything will work out for you!!
If it is a mechanical founder, soaking her feet once a day could relieve some of the symptoms and pain. I know it is winter and soaking is no fun, but just a thought ;-)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 8:57 am:
Hello Miriam,
A flare of chronic founder would not be a mechanical founder which is the form seen when a horse has become non-weight bearing on a single foot and the good foot's laminae begin to tear due to the excessive weight bearing. In either case I would be slow to recommend once daily soaking though there are some icing techniques that may be helpful, for more see the article on Founder Overview.
DrO
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Member:
huf5
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 10:24 am:
Thank you Dr. O
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 5:39 pm:
Jo Ann, someone told me that a good low-tech way to "test" hay for sugar content was to take some and make tea out of it...if it tastes sweet, there's sugar in it. Guess you'd have to compare a few before you could judge, though...I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense.
I generally have several different cuttings of the same grass hay, and one cutting or another usually is the hands down favorite of my horses. I try to ration that cutting out carefully, since I suspect more sugar in that one! I am sure they are just like us folks, programmed to go straight for the highest-calorie, highest-nutritional value they can find.
Soaking hay in the winter does sound like an awful chore!
Kathy
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 11:55 pm:
Dr. O, I concur with your definition of mechanical founder, but I think there are other causes, no?
If a horse is galloped on hard ground, or driven on pavement for a long time, is that not a cause of mechanical founder?
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 11:47 am:
No Erika, I don't believe so. The "road founders" I have seen start out as remarkable bruising setting up an inflammatory reaction > decreased blood supply to the laminae.
DrO
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 11:46 pm:
Kathy, the water that I dump out after soaking the hay looks like tea, but I'm not sure that I want to taste it! Yes, soaking the hay is no fun right now, but considering how cold it is all across the country its not been too bad here.
Thanks for your good wishes Miriam. Suzy seemed to be in more pain today with the arrival of significantly colder weather. Its supposed to warm up for the next several days so I'm hoping that will help her. If this doesn't turn around soon I'm going to move from pretty worried to really, really worried. Please send healing thoughts everyone. My girl sure could use them.
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Member:
huf5
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 12:17 am:
sending happy thoughts and warm wishes your way!!!
Merry Christmas
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 5:47 am:
Jo Ann fingers crossed for Suzy poor girl. Since she has cushings I wonder if upping her pergolide might help? I have read that can help a cushings horse when nothing else seems to work. Since she seems to always be on the "edge" her dosage may need adjusting?
Sending healing thoughts to Suzy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 6:08 am:
Forgot . I don't know for sure, but around these parts 1st crop hay is the least desirable, especially if cut late, which is usually the case around here due to spring rains. My opinion would be that 2nd and 3rd crop hay would be more "stressed" due to hotter temps and less rain, which would/could raise the sugar levels.
The way I test my hay is by the horses preference, if I gave them a leaf of second crop and a leaf of 1st crop it never fails they go for the 2nd crop...which means it has more sugar IMO because my horses LOVE sugar content!!!
I have even done that when trying to decide which 2nd crop to buy. Get a bale from each supplier, give a leaf of each and the leaf the 3 are fighting for has the most sugar, so I get the hay they weren't fighting over! I started this method when Hank was foundering and it seems to have worked!!! Just not very scientific
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 7:29 am:
Concerning the post about hay tea above, I meant to comment in my last post. Many of the sugars that are present are not "sugar" in the sense of a sweet substance. But really various forms of carbohydrates that would not be sweet to the taste so it is not logical that this method would be useful but then again I cannot say that it is not.
DrO
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 11:18 am:
Thanks Diane and Miriam. Yes, I checked with my vet about the Pergolide dosage and she thought that it was adequate. We did increase it last year. She seems a little better this AM. Perky and eating well anyway if still stiff legged.
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 11:49 am:
Oh, well, the hay tea idea sounded like a good one...not that I wanted to try it either, really! So much misinformation available from genuinely well-meaning people!
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