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  Discussion on Gas colic in old mare???
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 6:19 pm:

Dr.O. or any HA members that may have had these weird symptoms in their horse.

The old girl (nearly 30) has been doing some weird things I try to ignore most and put it off as old age. This may just be my OCD kicking in again, but this isn't normal, even for her.

2 days ago I noticed she was standing with her tail straight out most of the day, it really looked weird, but that was it. She is eating, drinking, pooping ....peeing I'm not sure, don't catch them doing that often, but saw her urinate the day her tail was straight out...not since.

Yesterday I noticed she was lifting her hind leg up and flapping her tail quite a bit, I thought maybe her arthritis was bothering her and chalked that up to that. (tails still straight out sometimes, but not all day)

Tonight she put my OCD over the edge. I was cleaning the lean to for the night and she came in by herself...which is strange in itself, walked to the far corner, put her tail straight up in the air and I mean straight up, lifted her leg a couple times and walked to the other side of the lean, she did not take a urination stance. I thought maybe she was coming in heat...which she only does about once a year. So I checked her over, no winking or dribbling. I watched her for awhile and she seems comfortable, not stressed at all. Checked vitals and they are fine. When I put the hay in for the night she went right to eating? She is getting around very well this winter, better than the tip toeing geldings to be honest. I've been kind of concerned she hasn't been laying down for awhile as I never see shavings on her in the morning and the geldings are always covered with them...she may be laying down outside, but don't know for sure. Should I be concerned??? Well I guess I already am or I wouldn't be typing this.

Everything from mild gas colic, to kidney failure is going through my head.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 6:58 pm:

Hi Diane,
Like you, I'd be concerned. You may have OCD, but you also know what is normal for your mare and what isn't. To me, her tail lifting and kicking would indicate pain, but probably light pain, or maybe spasms of pain as it doesn't put her off eating. If it was my old mare, I'd get the vet to look at her and have some bloodwork done. Sometimes I'm just obcessing and there's nothing wrong; but usually when I see something off and have it checked out, it turns out to be something I've caught early on which would be more difficult to treat if I'd waited until there were more pronounced symptoms. I'm a big one for following your gut feelings.
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 7:31 pm:

Hi Diane,
I'm in agreement with Sara: follow your gut. Better to get the old girl checked out and head off any problems that may be developing. It may be nothing at all, but you've had this mare practically all her life, if I remember correctly, and you know her inside and out. If she's behaving differently than the norm, I wouldn't take any chances.

I hope she's OK.
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 8:34 pm:

Hi Diane.

The mare I lost this past August was 33, I had her as my pampered pet for 26 of those 33 years and the very first thing that came to mind was blood work. Banner had hers checked every year or so and was always the first thing checked whenever there as a problem. The tail lifting and swishing makes me think of pain to some degree. Are you familiar with her gut sounds. I always checked those while assessing the situations she presented me with.

My philosophy....when in doubt, call the vet and let him decide if he thinks he needs to come out or, what I should watch for incase it's something minor that will pass.

Please post an update when you can, I'd like to know how she's doing.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 8:39 pm:

I really really hate the thoughts of having the vet out, for one reason he will say give her banamine and charge me $200. The money isn't the problem, but I KNOW that's what he'll say

I'm off tomorrow and I wonder if it could hurt anything to give her some banamine and see what happens...then go from there? That way when I call him I can say I already tried banamine and this is what happened? If it helps or not?

I'm starting to wonder if maybe it is her arthritis she does lift her leg and flap her tail at her hock when It's bothering her. The tail straight up in the air thing and straight out from her body is weird tho, she's never done that.

I just can't figure why arthritis would make her do such strange things with her tail.
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 9:03 pm:

Holly, where are you????

Holly is always the one who is preaching to me "no regrets" which is the thumbnail version of all said above. Get the Vet. Stand tall if he confirms you, be grateful if he contradicts you. We know you better than to think it is about the $$. You are a far far better caregiver than that.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 9:20 pm:

Diane, if your vet comes out, would he be willing to draw blood if you ask him to, just to rule things out? We had an old mare that developed uterine cancer and one of the first signs that there was something wrong was her kicking at her stomach and just acting a little off now and then. In her case, there wasn't anything we could do except keep her comfortable and happy for as long as possible. I'm not trying to frighten you, just saying this because I think the tail lifting and kicking can be indicative of pain anywhere in the abdomen area. Of course, it can also be just a little gas,too, as you mentioned. If you don't feel it's severe enough to call out the vet at this point, why don't you keep a journal of how often she does it, time of day, vital signs, etc. and this way you'll know for sure if it's getting worse/more frequent. Also, you'll have a record to show the vet if/when you do have him out.

Geesh! Always something, huh? Maybe she just feels Hank is doing so good you need something else to worry about now.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 9:36 pm:

Yes the vet will do anything I ask him to. He's a good guy, but he likes to try the conservative cheap routes first, which is fine!!! I will give him a call tomorrow and see what he thinks. I was just at the office yesterday getting the cats their special expensive food and was talking to him..that guys a hoot, he had me in tears with his Christmas story...I should post it for a good laugh.

He asked how all the horses were and I told him good for them and when I left said hope I don't see you for awhile (should have known better.)
Member:
shirl

Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 10:03 pm:

Diane,
Let us know what transpires. I agree with the other posts, better to have the Vet out and be certain what you're dealing with.
Hugs and Prayers,
Shirl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 7:53 am:

DianeE, what are your horses vital signs? These are the best indication of the seriousness of a condition. I don't see a "flapping tail" as an indication of colic, particularly with a normal appetite. More commonly I see such signs associated with irritation under the tail.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 8:09 am:

HMMMM Dr.O. Guess that would make sense. Her vitals are normal, she doesn't seem stressed (haven't seen her yet today).

The tail flapping part I have seen her do when her arthritis is bothering her, but I have never seen her hold it straight out or straight up in the air (like a flagging arabian)while lifting a leg. I'll check her tail when I go out and her udder maybe it's dirty again? I love simple things...hope that's it!

Thanks.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 8:30 am:

I just went out and fed and she is fine with good appetite...tail is still out more than normal. Her tail seemed in good order, but her udder if VERY filthy. It is so cold and windy I didn't have enough clothes on to stay out there long, but once it warms up a little and I dress better I will give her tail a good grooming and clean that udder!!!
Dr.O. I think you may have saved me $$$ for something so simple...I hope it works!!!!! WOW the things I learn on here!!!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 9:23 am:

Is it possible she is sore under her tail? Clean the underside really good, look for cuts, abrasions, and GENTLY move her tail around, standing off to the side of course, and see how she reacts. If she's not showing any signs of ear pinning or other pain signs, you could stand straight hehind her, and GENTLY pull her tail out..my old farrier used to do that at times, a chiro adjustment. Of course, I'd be sure vitals are good first, which they seem to be. Maybe she just jammed her tail some how, weirder things have happened!

I pull on their tails as part of grooming, massage, and such. They all seem to enjoy the stretch.

Regarding vets, I have the same attitude as I do with Drs...I called them for a problem, and I want this done, I INSIST on more rather than less being checked. I know not all vets and Drs are the same, but it's my experience that most want to start with the bare minimial and spend days or weeks, playing elimination. (I suppose for insurance reason?) I can see that point of view, but for me, if I've made the call, I have ruled out many things already, and now I want the professional advice.

Good luck, such a weird thing, I hope it goes away AND you figure out why she was doing it.
Member:
frances

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 9:33 am:

Diane, do her hind legs seem comfortable when raised, or do they spasm at all? Just wondering about shivers, which I know you suspected she might have before. The tail is often raised and quivers along with the leg I believe.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 10:10 am:

LL the shivers did pop in my head as I thought I had read somewhere that they hold their tails out and it quivers. She hasn't/can't been picking her rear legs up very high when she's doing this, so no I didn't see any spasms, she don't pick them up high enough to the point where the spasms start...Smart girl!

If the cleaning don't help, that may be the avenue to follow. I haven't gave her a legend shot in a few years (no need) but for some reason it always helps her.

I will also give her tail a "stretching" and if none of this works I will call the vet....I have a feeling it's her udder tho...maybe there's a piece of shavings sticking her there...it is really cruddy. When I felt it this morning she lifted her head out of her feed tub and put her nose in the air and twisted it. It must have felt VERY good!!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 1:52 pm:

Well Flash has a shiny clean udder, a beautiful tail, and a shiny brushed coat. She seemed to be very happy to get a good grooming, unfortunately I slack on that a bit in the winter. Stretched her tail some too.

When I put her back in she took a poop, a big drink of water and fell a sleep in the sun. Now I will watch and see if the tail lifting and flapping comes back...keep fingers crossed it is this simple!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 2:29 pm:

Diane, I hope your mare's problems are resolved!!

Imo, the biggest enjoyment in life that these old mares have is causing their owners frustration and worry. They become set in their ways, know what they want, and know how to get it.

My oldest girl, now 28, loves to make me worry, and is even more adept at making Lonnie worry. Infact, he is in a constant state of near panic over her if there is the slightest thing unusual about her behaviour - esp. if I'm not home at the time.

I've had a bad cold, so Lonnie offered to feed for me the other day. He came back in very worried because he put grass hay out for Beau and she just stared at it with no interest in eating. She was waiting for her Senior, as she prefers to eat it first, get a big drink, then pick at her hay. Of course, Lonnie didn't know this. Last night he went out and checked on the horses and he thought she looked funny and was pacing in her stall. I went out and she was fine, but had been walking the stall, which she does to spread clean shavings around to get them just the way she wants them. Some days she wants alfalfa, and other days grass, she likes her stall door open so she can drink out of the big tank as she dislikes drinking out of her bucket, she froths at the mouth and DrOols, looking rabid, if you're late with her food,,,it's enough to drive anyone mad!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 3:46 pm:

Oh yea gotta love em' She is a sweetheart. Bad News being all cleaned up didn't help the tail thing, She still does not seem distressed at all, and she loves being all beautiful now.

I noticed the tail lifting is followed by back leg shuffling, I think it may be her hocks bothering her. I took a couple short videos, from the beDrOom window, they aren't the greatest, but you will get the idea I think. It is not gas...I'm sure

She also has been standing with her head over the auto waterer quite often the last few weeks, I don't know if that means anything or not. At any rate I am going to give her some bute this weekend to see if it will help, if not the vet will be called mon. I really don't think it is an emergency as vitals, appetite, BM's and I saw her urinate today...all are normal.

Here's the video's

https://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=https://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/001.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

https://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=https://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/002-1.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 5:37 pm:

Kind of hard to tell from the clips, but she doesn't look in distress at all. I think I'd just keep an eye on her if she was mine. I think the bute isn't a bad idea. If it's pain of any kind I would think it would help (unless it's stomach pain.) This is the mare you had saddle fitting concerns with, isn't it? The one you thought was sway-backed? She looks good for an older "lady!"
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 6:25 pm:

OK so she freaked me out again and I called the vet!
Told him everything she was doing, after I took that video she walked away from the waterer with her tail straight in the air again, and then started flapping it like crazy. She urinated again, but not much, then started flapping her tail like a maniac again. I had to go get an oil change and when I got back she was hanging her head over the water again...flapping her tail!!

So here is what he said, since her vitals are good, he didn't think it was necessary to come out, but he is in the office tomorrow if I need him, he said blood work would be a good idea but waiting until Mon. would be better otherwise it will sit and may not be as precise.

In the mean time to give her bute or banamine in case it is her arthritis bothering her. I also locked them in the paddock tonight so they aren't out wandering around on the ice. Bedded it very deeply to see if she is laying down.

as a secondary precaution, I am not going to let them eat on the big bale in case there is a weed or something in it making her act this way, I have noticed they are not overly enthused about this bale, and it may be my imagination (I don't think so tho) Hank is starting to hold his tail up and flap it...not as much as Flash tho.

If symptoms subside we know it's either her arthritis or the hay or maybe something in the pasture. That's the plan anyway. The little witch spit out her banamine so I had to dose her twice...that's a very good sign for her!!!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 6:51 pm:

"Little witch!" Diane!! Where's the sympathy and love?

Seriously, it sounds like you're doing all the right things. I hope it turns out to be nothing; or at most, a crummy bale of hay with no serious problems attached.

Now, go have a beer and relax!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 6:52 pm:

As a side note I should add that Hank has been walking around with an erection, which is usually a sign of somethings wrong with him. Even hubby commented on it. I have been noticing this for a few days. I have been racking my brain if this stuff is coinciding with when we put the last big bale in and I'm pretty sure it is. I'm pretty sure we put it in Mon. or Tues. Could be coincidence....but very strange
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 7:02 pm:

Sara I love it when she's feisty, it's so funny! We call her the old hag, because she can be a little snot if she wants to be! and I wonder where Hank gets his horns!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 7:20 pm:

I have 3 ideas:

1. Has urininary track infection been mentioned?

2. Leg/hoof/heel pain, and she's trying to get comfortable.

3. Have 3 beers, and quit looking at her! \clip art{rofl}

(I swear, I am going have to learn how to DRINK..I've been dealing with computer problems, internet issues, Cell phone providers, and Direct TV...none of it good. Maybe I'll go sleep in the barn with the horses, 'course then I might "see things" and it'll be more stress!!!)\clip art{angry}
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 7:21 pm:

Funny, isn't it, how when it's the older horse acting up we think it's funny, but if it's a young one we don't. I figure my old girls have been good moms, riding horses, etc. almost all their lives; they can do what they want now. They love to "get away" with stuff, especially if it's in front of the other (younger) horses.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 7:39 pm:

The vet mentioned an UTI, he said he doubted kidney failure...said it was rare in the horse. Bladder stones were mentioned also, but now that Hank is starting to do the same thing I'm thinking it may be the hay...or weed in the pasture.

That mare has hooves of steel!! I'm sure it isn't them, she could walk on glass with out flinching

Sara when I had Flash out grooming her and letting her graze some grass shw was really flaunting it to the boys. Hank got so mad he started pawing! Which made her very happy!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 8:41 am:

She met me at the gate this morning..tail flapping, tho not a vigorously. She didn't lay down last night, not one piece of shavings on her. I thought with the banamine she would lay down. Her appetite is ravenous, altho I have noticed when I let them out to the big bale she takes a couple bites and then walks off and tries to graze, there is no grass in that pasture at all! Sam does the same thing, and the hog Hank will eat at it a little longer. I wonder if this bale is sprayed with the acid stuff? I don't see anything wrong with it like mold or dust..there are a few weeds. It looks like nice hay. They tear into the leafs at night from the small squares.

I don't know what to make of this, there is nothing terribly wrong it would seem, but somethings not right either? All 3 of them are acting somewhat different

Flash..weird tail and leg things, hanging head over water and more water intake it appears.

Hank..Starting weird tail things, Hanging out way more than normal, has erection quite often, also seems to be drinking more.

Sam...Acting a little depressed, hind end seems to be sore. Some tail flapping, also drinking more. Every time I see them one of them is drinking or hanging their head over the water.?

I have taken the road to ignoring things, but the behavior is extreme, so hard not to notice. even hubby has noticed the strange behavior and that speaks volumes
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 10:15 am:

We have articles on all the above processes which describe the diagnosis. DianeE if you remained concern about colic, or abdominal pain of any cause, try the flunixin. If it does not change I would move colic further down the list of possibilities than it already is. If it improves with flunixim but not bute I would move it even further up the list. The leg lifting, really more of a rest in the video, does not look like what you see with shivers but horses will shift hind limb weight bearing with colic.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 10:53 am:

Angie, I was going to suggest that you are either not drinking enough, or are drinking too much - until you mentioned hubby noticing strange behaviour also. It's good you're going to have the vet out; if he finds nothing, at least you'll quit going crazy over this. And, it could be something you're not seeing with the hay.
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 10:58 am:

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon Diane. It does sound more and more likely that the cause is something all three are exposed to.

In the video Flash really looks good, not "shivery" at all

Member:
dres

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 10:59 am:

Just a side note.. I have a mare when she is in heat will hold her tail straight out for most of the week with hind leg shifting..

I hope they all stop being scary for you soon..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 11:15 am:

Good luck, Diane, in figuring this out. Hope it is nothing serious. Lilo
Member:
twadwis

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 11:57 am:

One thing that would be logical to try.......especially due to you observing that the hay may be an issue and that the gelding also has behavior changes......how about not letting them have access to that hay for a while, feed your small bales for a week....see what (if anything) changes.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 3:27 pm:

twa I did remove access to the bale last night.

Today when I went out to clean the lean to Flash was standing with the geldings, a couple min. later she flapped her tail and went and stood like this, she did not urinate and stayed that way the whole time I cleaned, I just went around her, watching. After about 15 mins. when I was done I tapped her on the butt and she went and stood in front of the lean-to and acted just fine.

I'm certain she is not in heat, for a couple different reasons, she quit coming in heat regularly about 4 yrs. ago. She will come in heat in the spring sometimes, but this is not how she acts, also Sam would be all over her cuz' he thinks he's a stud! There is no winking, squirting or posturing.

This is her new stance today Just weird.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 3:42 pm:

Huh, my Arab mare does that stance at times, usually when being saddled. But no complaints or soreness found from the saddle, so I don't worry about it. Just like she "grunts" whenever I dismount! Thought it was her complaining about my weight, but she does the same with my skinny teenaged daughter!

But, ya weird!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 4:05 pm:

Yea my arab gelding does this while saddling too, but not when just standing around. I guess maybe I will quit looking at her, nothing seems "wrong" just weird things she has never done. The tail flapping is still almost continuous, but she isn't holding it out anymore. I'm going to try bute tonight, the banamine didn't seem to help and that is her "drug of choice"
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 4:13 pm:

She does look rather uncomfortable. Is she urinating more now? I remember you said she wasn't peeing "much" somewhere above?

How are the other two doing?
Member:
twadwis

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 4:26 pm:

Ahhhh......that is the way a gelding stood when his ulcers were bothering him. Other subtle things were yawning, starting to eat then abruptly walking away (especially with grains), odd laying down positions. We had a paint mare who would get cast periodically and later we found out she was trying to lay upside down to relieve ulcer pain.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 5:10 pm:

Twa she has a VERY good appetite as you can tell from her pic she doesn't pass up any groceries She hasn't been laying down at all, my guesstimate...based on shavings in coat is about 5 days. Which does bring me back to her arthritis. She can get up well, but when she goes down she don't bend her hocks much and just flops.

I have seen that stance quite often in gas colic also, it can mean many things I suppose or absolutely nothing

LL the other 2 seem to be improving today Hank is still "hanging out" way more than normal and from experience with him that usually means he's got gas or a bellyache of sorts.

As my vet said it's possible I am dealing with 2 different entities with Flash, her arthritis + maybe a bellyache or something else and that's why the signals are mixed. She really shouldn't be prone to ulcers, but maybe with the stress of her arthritis it's possible? She isn't stalled, been retired for quite a few years, gets no grain.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 5:58 pm:

HMMM when I just fed she seemed REALLLY good, her tail was normal, no flapping and her attitude was very happy! Her appetite seems to be ravenous even for her. After she sucked down her "grain" She tried to fight with Sam for his she has NEVER done that. She is bottom of the pecking order, and usually last to finish. When I left to get the hay, she was at the gate all excited about the hay, the little witch ripped it out of my arms. Had that been Hank or Sam they would have been very sorry they did that! I was just happy she was so perky I couldn't reprimand her.

They did not have the big bale today, I did let them out in their regular pasture for the day so they could move around, locked in tonight...more ice on the way

I put more bedding in so it is very thick, hoping she will lie down. I also gave her some bute, it was already mixed in her feed, before I realized she was feeling better.

IF she remains "normal" I almost have to suspect the hay. Thanks for your support! Hopefully this is the end of this thread.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 8:42 pm:

It certainly does sound as though all of your horses have been a little "off," in which case one has to look for the common denominator.

Even if there is nothing that appears wrong with the hay perhaps it is less digestible for some reason.

Are you sure they are actually drinking more or could they be hanging at and playing with the water more than drinking it? That has been a sign
of bellyache in a couple of mine.

The stance and symptoms you mention I have seen as signs of mild colic.

A mare that I had did the tail pumping when she had a gas colic. She would stand outside eating on a round bale of hay, gorge herself and tend toward slight impaction and then gas. Because of her I had to stop using round bales.

It sounds like taking them off the round bale helped.

Let us know how they are.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 5:25 am:

Dr.O. if the hay was the problem, what would you suspect was wrong with it? The strange things do seem to coincide with the arrival of this bale. It is from the same guy, same barn, and it doesn't look any different then the ones prior at all. Same type of grass, same cutting ect. There is about half of the bale left and I don't want it sitting out in the pasture molding until spring. I can't burn it...to close to LP tank, no cows around to eat it, and hubby can't move it with tractor, because it is mostly loose now. Much as I hate to, the only thing I can come up with is pitchforking a little bit daily to them until it's gone. Haven't seen the horses yet today, but if they remain better, would you suspect the hay?

Thanks
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 7:39 am:

Diane,

Are you closely monitering how much your horses are drinking? Thinking about what Vicki said, maybe it's a combination of too much hay, not enough water. I know mine scare me sometimes during the winter months when it seems the water level doesn't go down at all in the water tank! So I clean the tank really well, even if I think it looks fine, and sometimes I sprinkle loose salt on their hay, or add to their pellets just to get them to drink more. They did that last week, and I am still watching the tank like a hawk, and I know they are drinking, just not very much.

As for hay removal, I can vouch for the fact that you can manually remove one large bad round hay bale, pitchfork at a time. It ONLY amounts to about 4 huge one ton flat bed loads. Just be sure to put it someplace where hubby doesn't get mad about it, and threaten to make you move it all over again!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 8:34 am:

Talk about a sheet of ice out there, this is worse than I have ever seen it. I had to use 3 bags of salt just for the paddock and a path to the water.

Flash seems VERY comfortable this morning and her attitude is much better. She was also covered in shavings, so she finally laid down!!!! Hank wasn't "hanging out" either.

Angie, they have an auto waterer, but they are drinking...A LOT. I would think she would be impacted if lack of water was the problem and she's been pooping fine through this. I also add a half gallon of water to their alfalfa pellets per feeding. I don't think they were stuffing themselves...with this bale anyway! I am really not wanting to move that hay, with the ice and the wind is blowing recently it would be much harder than it would normally be, and I know I would have to listen to hubby complain for years to come.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 10:19 am:

Well, Diane, to me the solution is obvious. I think you need to buy 8-10 goats to clean up that hay. No more worrying about the horses, and more funny stories for us on HA!

Unfortunately, you haven't ruled much out. If the horses all have symptoms, and you suspect a common cause, then Flash's arthritis is low on the list unless you think they all have weather misery. The camped-out posture looks more to me like colic than hock arthritis-- that posture doesn't reduce stress on the hocks.

Even in the same hayfield, you can see variations in the hay, depending on the year and the practices in place. I buy a semi-load from the same field every year, and it was an interesting day when I found half a bale of marijuana stacked in my barn! Talk about your grass hay.

So maybe you transitioned them too fast onto a new bale, and they're all uncomfortable adjusting? I like my answer of goats, but you'll have to weigh the factors and decide whether to keep feeding this hay slowly, or to switch them again and do something else with this pile.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 11:00 am:

No THANKS to the goats! I think gas colic was probably her main problem as stated above that mare is moving well this winter, she never seizes to amaze me. Especially since Hank was doing his excessive "hanging out" It never fails he has a belly ache when he does that.

I guess it would be easier to let them eat on it an hour a day, then me pitch forking it I have been through that hay with a fine tooth comb and don't see a problem with it, then again I saw nothing wrong with the one they wouldn't touch either, other than it was a little brown. I still wonder about the drying acid they apply, but it isn't suppose to cause problems. I know this farmer uses it.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 11:31 am:

Hi Diane, be careful on that ice! Our place is the same. It is 5 degrees out this a.m. but sunny and no wind. I want to turn horses out, but I could barely get to the barn without falling down, so they are staying shut in unless it warms up dramatically by afternoon.

Hopefully your mare's problem is, as you suspect, something with the hay. Especially if Hank and some of the others are acting a bit the same way. Being older, she might be the most affected. It is surprising that sometimes the least little thing, like giving them alfalfa when they are used to grass, or even hay from a different field, can set some of them off. I'd just keep your eyes open.

I'd take a goat or two before I pitched one of those big bales into a wagon! Unless, of course, I had a fork lift or teenager that were on restriction (and had to work it off!)
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 12:33 pm:

OMG elk, that is waaay to funny: "it was an interesting day when I found half a bale of marijuana stacked in my barn! Talk about your grass hay." Please forgive me for asking...but ummmmm...what did you do with it?

I don't know if it's just me but it seems that for the last 2 years it has been near impossible to find good quality grass hay that had nothing wrong with it. It's either brown, dirty, moldy/musty or not having enough flavor to be worth eating....which makes me wonder if the farmers these days aren't doing something different? Why on earth is it sooo hard to find good hay any more? With the prices we're all paying, we should expect the hay to be of decent quality.

Diane...I'm glad to see your babies are feeling better.
Member:
amara

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 2:26 pm:

Elk
I too, would like to know what you did with that half bale of "marijuana hay". I would also like to know where that farmer is located!!

DEPUTY Mel
*LOL*
Member:
juliem

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 3:31 pm:

Good grass hay is very difficult to grow and harvest. If the weather doesn't provide about a 7 to 10 day window, the hay can't be cut or it will be rained on. This means waiting for that window can result in hay that is very mature--stemmy and coarse. If the hay is cut and rained on, it must be turned and left to dry again--bleaching and further loss of the sugars that make it tasty. If the weather really throws a curve and more than one rain occurs, the efforts and effect is multiplied. Too much humidity, too little sun and wind, the hay doesn't dry properly. It's either got to be left longer before baling and/or raked and turned. Either way, there's a loss of quality. It's more expensive than say alfalfa as a grower gets less yield per acre, fewer cuttings and a smaller market (cattle fatten on alfalfa.) Cattle will still eat and fatten on hay that is a bit moldy. I think because they are usually slaughtered before the cumulative effects of poor hay show up. Now factor in the value of the land--a better crop up until last year was houses! Fertilizer, twine, fuel, all the costs have gone up as the available farmland has plummeted. I feel pretty lucky to have hay in the barn after all the factors that can go wrong. Mine is over mature, but not moldy and I paid TOP dollar for it! I'm just thankful any farmer would still try to grow grass hay! I know the cost has presented a hardship for horse owners, but I don't believe any grower ever gets wealthy until he sells his land to a developer!
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 7:44 pm:

Shhhhh Julie....don't say that so loud, you might cause a stampede of land for sale.

Oh, ummmmm elk.....is that bale for ummmm sale? LOLOLOLOLOLOL Gee, why do I have a sudden craving for brownies?
Member:
erika

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 9:19 pm:

Elizabeth, sounds like you've got plenty of volunteers to help you clean up that odd bale.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 9:51 pm:

Just now catching up on threads. Diane, we had a mare who stood just like your pic when she had mild colic. Hope everybody is all better. Now, just because someone has to say it - Stay OFF of that roof!
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 10:48 pm:

Ok, fine, so: the rest of the story of my real grass hay.

The guy who grows the hay is fighting a long terrible battle with cancer, so I figured right off that he either was self-medicating (and his stash got mowed/baled/sold by accident), or he had hired some not-so-great help who were taking advantage of his irrigation water.

First I had an embarrassing and inconclusive discussion with my vet about whether accidental ingestion of pot by my broodmares might be detrimental to their unborn foals (we have dummy foals, what about stoned foals?). So that got me nowhere and probably damaged my reputation for life (no, it wasn't mine. No, even if it were mine why would I feed it to the horses? But it wasn't mine... except yes I bought it, but not on purpose. And so on).

Then I tied up the rest of the bale and took it over to the feedstore (obeying all posted speed signs, making full stops before all turns, and acting veeery innocent). They buy hay from the same guy, so I told them I wanted to become a reseller since the street value on their straight grass was incredible. We all had a good laugh, and when I looked around, the guys had run out to their stack and were throwing down bales and sorting through them like crazy. I left my bale there, and when I asked about it later, it had mysteriously disappeared.

I still buy from the same guy, and haven't since found anything interesting in the hay. Guess they sort the bales more carefully now....
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 11:16 pm:

"First I had an embarrassing and inconclusive discussion with my vet about whether accidental ingestion of pot by my broodmares might be detrimental to their unborn foals (we have dummy foals, what about stoned foals?). So that got me nowhere and probably damaged my reputation for life (no, it wasn't mine. No, even if it were mine why would I feed it to the horses? But it wasn't mine... except yes I bought it, but not on purpose. And so on)."

LOLOLOLOLOLOL....what a riot! I tried reading your post to my hubby and had to stop and catch my breath twice. Thanks for a good laugh, I really needed one tonight....maybe because I don't have one of those bales.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 6:02 am:

Dr.O. out of curiosity I looked to see if I could find any reports of other horses being off from propionic acids which I believe is the preservative they use in hay. I found this, but it is too technical for me. Is this the same propionic acids they use on hay? If it is could you decipher it for me? Thanks

https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2003.64.404
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 7:36 am:

Yes but the significance of such a study is unknown in a live horse stomach and I have not heard of problems using VFA's as a hay preservatives.
DrO
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 9:36 am:

Hi Diane,
Looking at the short video clips, your horse seemed to be shifting her weight in the hind end...does she do this often? if you think her feet are fine...I'm curious if she might be trying to relieve some back pain by shifting weight, holding tail out, standing in a parked out stance and not lying down...has Vet carefully palpated her back & pelvis?
Good Luck!
Ike
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 6:15 pm:

Ike, turned out I didn't need the vet she is back to normal thankfully. I still think it had something to do with the hay, but who knows?

I have been letting them eat it for a couple hours a day and that's it, so far symptoms haven't returned on any of them.
Thanks
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 6:38 pm:

Great to hear Diane,
Sorry, I must admit I read the first 2/3 of this thread very carefully and then kind of cruised through the last portion, where I think you had reported her feeling better.
Happy New Year
Ike
Member:
frances

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 8:18 am:

Glad they seem to be over it Diane. What a weird thing.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 12:20 pm:

The old girl has been doing very well, but she has a new "thing" when she urinates she lifts her right hind leg up...she looks like a male dog when peeing....ever seen that??? She seems fine otherwise...weird horse!
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 12:47 pm:

Diane, I've never seen it consistently, but I have seen it when a horse doesn't want to get splashed . . .

If I were her, and if I thought my legs were going to get splashed with all the bitter cold you folks have had . . . I'd try to lift all four legs off the ground.
Member:
amara

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 1:36 pm:

My little pony gelding will lift a hind leg frequently when he goes to pee (and usually the right hind). He almost always at least cocks it, and pretty commonly lifts it off the ground. Whether its a "I don't want to get splashed" issue, or a "I think I'm a dog issue" (I had a female dog that lifted her leg to pee), or just an "I'm just plain weird issue", I dunno. He's been doing it for years, and I've always just attributed it to just being the way he is.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 2:07 pm:

OK well I'll just chalk it up to a new weird habit...she's getting stranger and stranger in her old age!

She wasn't just cocking it, it was about 2ft. in the air. Then she started falling over, so took a step (while peeing) and lifted her leg again. A person really has to grow a sense of humor with these oldies
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 6:39 pm:

Diane - the main thing is: she is doing well! That is the important part.
Lilo
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 9:40 pm:

Angie, Holly beat me to it; I have two mares that will lift a leg and do just about anything else they can to keep from getting splashed when the ground is frozen and hard. I bet if she had a pile of something soft to pee in she wouldn't do it. At least mine don't. Of course, they go running into their stalls everytime they need to urinate, which makes for lots of dirty shavings to clean (and pay for!)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 5:36 am:

I don't think it is the splash effect, she was standing by the big bale and they have a lot of hay on the ground around it, their favorite place to urinate because it is so cushy. I does ease my mind other people have seen their horses do this, because I never have!

Sara you are going to give me and Angie a complex if you keep getting us mixed up
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 10:12 am:

I'm sorry Diane! I must have been half asleep. I often am when I post!}
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 3:44 pm:

OK I have an update to this and it really brings a lot of things together with this old girl. It is weird and a long story but here goes. Flash has continued to do this odd stance and tail lifting, not as much as when I started this thread, but enough that it isn't "normal."

Today I came home at noon to put her boots on and she was standing in the paddock with her tail in the air again. Normally I tell her to knock it off because it bugs me (because I know it's not right) So I decided to look at her backend once again as she was doing this and her anus was open a little bit and a hard poop ball was stuck there!

I took her vitals and all seemed fine, she is eating (VERY WELL) and drinking(pretty good). Since she is locked in I know how much she poops and for the most part she seems to have an average daily amount...EXCEPT once in awhile.

So today as I was driving along something popped in my head...a few years ago I had a post in here about her shifting her weight and holding her tail out. She had a bit of a colic at that time and the vet did a rectal...I posted in here asking Dr.O. if that could cure her "lameness", which we all know is off the wall a bit, but she was all better after the rectal. Dr.O. said he never heard of a theraputic rectal. I had said I was considering having the vet do a rectal every 6 mos. instead of the legend shots, because she was much better after the rectal than on the legend. SOOOO in retrospect I really wonder if this isn't all tied together and in fact she was having the same problem at the time.

Thinking back on all of this it all seems to happen in the winter mos. I wonder if she doesn't drink enough. Since she's been locked up I would say she averages about 5 gals a day.

SOOOO I called the vet and he remembered the "theraputic rectal" and thinking I was nuts because I said it had "cured" her "lameness"

When she is on grass I haven't seen these symptoms.

The vet said sometimes older horses large intestines loose some of their mobility. I asked if he had any suggestions for this. He said roughage, but isn't hay roughage?? and she eats PLENTY of that. He said yes, but he has found adding rice bran has helped with that problem...UGHHH she is too fat now and if I know her she'll turn her nose up at it. I asked if I built her a small pen in the yard, so she could get some grass would be alright (because of course I have the "bowed tendon" now

He said it would be ok as long as it was small and flat. At the end of our conversation he said "how interesting of a presentation"

Dr.O. what do you think???
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 4:39 pm:

Diane,
I think you may have hit the problem ( and maybe the solution) at the same time. I think Flashes water intake during the winter may be causing her problems. She may have a slight impaction or something going on internally with her that when she reduces her water intake ( for what ever reason that might be) the problem comes on again. Since her activity has been limited lately she may not be getting enough exercise to keep her guts moving.

When she exhibited the symptoms a few years ago and the vet rectaled her and she got better lameness wise, it may have not been a lameness you were seeing, instead she could have been internally uncomfortable and her "lameness" was her way of showing it. Once the vet cleaned her out, away went the lameness. The fact that you found a hard manure ball tells me you may have a partial impaction problem going on.

I would try to get more water into her, maybe by using Dr. O's electrolyte recipe and I would try some oil if she can handle it.

It never ends does it.
Rachelle
Member:
3chip

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 5:41 pm:

It is not unusual for horses to become slightly constipated, particularly during winter months when water consumption goes down. Perhaps the following will help a bit.
Diagnosing Constipation
Horse constipation is diagnosed when there is decreased gut activity – or when gut activity is non-existent. Consult with your vet if you are unsure as to whether your horse’s bowel movements are normal.

Typical signs of constipation include:

Hardened manure
Passing less manure than usual (or dry hard manure)
Cessation of bowel movements (no manure produced)
Loss of appetite (most animals will not feed until they pass stool)
Pawing, rolling or circling
Not eating (or changing in eating habits)
Anxiety, trembling and sometimes sweating
Absence of bowel sounds
Increased heart and respiratory rate
Cool extremities

Help for Constipation!
Treatment for constipation usually includes IV administration of an analgesic or mild laxative to move the solid waste through the intestinal tract. Never give your horse human laxatives, or any other medication without consulting with your vet first.

Natural Remedies
There are many homeopathic remedies that can help to provide digestive support to horses and promote removal of waste and healthy bowel movements. Chamomilla is a homeopathic ingredient that has been used in both ancient and modern times to calm the digestive system and address bowel health.

Aconite napellus and Belladonna get to work on a cellular level to promote healthy digestion and calm in the digestive tract, intestines and bowels. To address flatulence and gas related to colic, Colocynth and Nux. vom are beneficial and can be used regularly to support healthy stomachs.

Most of these can be purchased in Natural Food Stores.}}
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 6:07 pm:

Thanks, YES I am VERY aware of the "normal" signs of colic..she just didn't have them. She eats well, poops a lot! (most of the time) Doesn't act upset or distressed....just weight shifted,stretched out and held her tail up, but this happens very intermitently.

It's hard to tell how much she drinks in the winter, but she has been locked up for almost 2 mos. now and she seems to drink pretty well. She is a pony. She has an 18 gal heated muck bucket in her pen. I wold estimate she drinks a good 5-8 gals a day..USUALLY. I think that is within normal limits for her size. I do wonder if something else is going on inside, OR as the vet said in older horses the gut motility can slow down. I'm glad at least I found the cause of her strange behavior..I was starting to wonder if her or I were crazy

In the winter they don't move around as much as the summer time either, so this could be related to not moving much also. Since she is locked up she don't move much. When I started this thread they were on a big bale and they hardly moved from it either. Once locked off of it they started wandering the pasture a little more. So lack of exercise could come into play, as I hadn't seen her do it again until I had to "stall rest her"
When I got home from work she still hadn't pooped, so I took her out for some hand grazing and a short walk. She had a bowel movement about an hour after that...it did look kind of dry. I had filled her 18 gal. bucket last night and almost half of it's gone, so it does appear as if she's drinking well..strange.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 8:07 pm:

Diane,

How often do you give her fresh water? The reason I am asking is that one of my horses is so spoiled that unless I dump and scrub her buckets she will not drink from them. I can not just top off the buckets, it has to be clean and fresh and I have to do it twice a day.

I am sure you are a very good horsekeeper it shows in your posts, but after I read your post about her drinking almost half the tub, I am wondering if her constipation problem comes from not drinking consistently during the day and waiting for you to refresh her water and then drinking her fill.

Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 8:21 pm:

Diane, I have an idea; I think we should put our two old mares in a barn together somewhere, hire a horse shrink and a vet for them, and then we should go out drinking together. It is an evil old mare plot to drive us crazy!!

I think the lack of movement has a lot to do with their keeping "regular" at their age. When my old girl doesn't get out and walk her stools are smaller and firmer than otherwise. I have also read what your vet told you about their intestines not processing food as well and not having the movement they have when horses are younger. I think the bran mash is a good idea; however, I've always used wheat bran instead of rice bran. I add rice bran when I want to add gleam to their coats, add weight, or to balance calcium - potasium ratios.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 9:03 pm:

Sara thanks for the giggle, I think that's the best idea I've heard yet...especially the horse shrink.

Rachelle, the Princess gets fresh water every night, I dump and clean the bucket daily. She wouldn't have it any other way.

I hope if I add some kind of mash I don't have to think about balancing vit./mins. I've never understood that stuff. I guess the Princess is going to teach me yet another thing

She has so many problems, but that girl is so bright eyed and bushy tailed you'd never know it, and she really does think she's a Princess now...No she thinks she's the Queen.

Where do you even get bran stuff???
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 10:04 pm:

Diane,

I'd be careful with the bran stuff. I used to feed wheat bran to my horses on a very regular basis until I read an article, (and forgive me but I can't remember where I read it, old age setting in) that said that wheat bran can remove too much calcium from a horses system and lead to bone and joint problems when used long term.

I do know that people have switched to rice bran and I have not seen any negative effects from that and some feeds include ricebran in their ingredients.

I just add water to whatever I feed which for right now is whole oats with soybean oil, Barn Bag pelleted concentrate, OCD pellets, garlic and a tablespoon of molasses for taste.

The strange thing though is that even with their feed watered down, right after they eat they hit the water bucket.

That's funny you call her Princess, the mare that's fussy about her water. One of her nicknames is Princess too. Her other nickname is Dagmar ( she'd be Dagwood if she were a he, she is one that can eat air and gain weight, a very easy keeper and just loves her food).

I bought two mares in 2005, one was a light bay with blonde hair in her mane and tail, I nicknamed her Blondie and since Blondie needed a Dagwood to keep her company, she got a Dagmar instead. The girl that used to take care of them called Blondie, Queenie, and Dagmar, Princess.

Your feed store should carry bran.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 10:27 pm:

Thanks Rachelle I will have to read up on bran stuff. The vet did suggest Rice Bran.

My feed store. we have no feed store in this county, just a strictly cow feed store. I imagine I can order it on the web if I go that route. The vet said a psyllium(sp) may work too, but he's had better luck with the Rice Bran in this type of situation. I have some psyllium here so maybe I'll start with that and see what happens.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 10:47 pm:

O.K. now I have to do some reading; for many, many years we always fed a wheat bran mash (usually mixed with grated carrots, chopped apples, raisins, steamed oats,etc.) to all of our horses every Sunday night, and then they got off work on Monday. I never had a problem with a horse having digestive problems and very few other problems. I know rice bran can affect calcium/phosphorus balance. Does wheat bran also? Am I showing my age here and way behind the times in horse nutrition?

Psyllium is all together different, isn't it? I'm wondering why it could be substituted for bran of any kind.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 11:06 pm:

I don't know but I have never quite understood what mashes are good for

I suppose and this is just a guess until I can look further into it...that mashes and psyllium products draw moisture into the gut??? OR they are fiber and keep the gut moving...but isn't that what hay does.

Why can't that mare get something that doesn't make me think and have already dealt with??? Hank's hooves were a breeze compared to her crazy stuff

I better see if Dr.O. has an article on it
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 11:18 pm:

Dr.O. does have an article on wheat and rice bran
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/6195.html

The article states that it hasn't been proven it helps in this sort of situation, BUT it hasn't been disproven either. Seems according to the article wheat or rice bran would be ok to try...I wonder which is less fattening?
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 12:15 am:

Ok, but I think there is research showing that electrolyte supplementation may cause her to drink more water, and that does not have the same chub effect as adding bran to her diet. I would be tempted to give her some electrolytes before adding calories, to see if that caused her to increase her water intake, which is the goal.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 7:18 am:

Elizabeth she is drinking between 5-10 gallons a day. I think that is considered enough for a medium pony, but I'm not possitive hopefully Dr.O. will tell me that.

I think my vet recommended the bran to help with gut motility, but I guess that is debatable too..

Is it ok to give a horse electrolytes if they don't need them?
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 8:33 am:

Diane,

Here is the link to an article on thehorse.com
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=6412
The article is mainly about the benefits of bran, but in the middle of it there is a section about calcium deficiency.

It also suggests beet pulp as an alternative to add roughage to the diet. Maybe adding some beet pulp might solve the problem.

Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 9:20 am:

Diane, If I recall correctly, Dr. O does not believe in giving unneeded electrolytes and that such a practice can be harmful. His article on this subject is very good.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 9:55 am:

Diane you say stuck. What was it stuck to and how did you unstick it?

While Vicki is correct there is a different reason here than when discussing how to prevent dehydration and electrolyte balance. When you feed electrolytes to increase fecal water the problem is the electrolytes are absorbed from the bowel and excreted out the kidneys in both cases drawing water with it. Yes feeding water will increase water consumption because more water is lost getting rid of the excess electrolytes. On balance it is a wash. We do discuss ways to increase fecal water content in the Colic Overview article.

Concerning all the comments about bran (wheat or rice) and digestion, in experiments bran and bran mashes has not been shown to increase fecal water content but that is not to say it is without uses or that it cannot be balanced to become a useful nutrient. All of this is discussed in detail in the article on bran.

True homeopathic treatments will not benefit equine digestion or any condition when you think about it, it is just "magic" water after all. As for the use of herbs this is less certain but I can say there is little evidence for their use in horses and there are enough important differences between humans and horses to generalize.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 10:25 am:

Dr.O. her anus was open about an inch and I could see a "poop ball" there right at the entrance....I'm very sure that's what it was. I did nothing to "unstick" it other than her tail straight in the air she seemed fine. When I talked to the vet he said he could come out and do a rectal, but since she wasn't acting "uncomfortable" waiting to see what happened would be ok.

I had cleaned the paddock so I know she hadn't just had a BM. and it was "left over"

I don't know if this is a matter of not enough water, isn't 5-10 gallons a day pretty normal consumption for a pony? I do add water to her alfalfa pellets also. Do older horses gut motility slow down as my vet stated, and maybe that with lack of exercises is the problem...which I'm leaning towards...it seems when this happens it is when she has been inactive.

Thanks
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 11:14 am:

Diane, I haven't had time to read the entire thread word for word, so I apologize if any of this is duplicate...

I did watch the videos and based on what you have described, it looks to me like she is indeed a little uncomfortable from something. The shifting the weight back and forth and holding the tail out imply that to me. Was a UTI ever ruled out?

It seems to me, that combined w her age and possibly slower motility, her weird behavior, the poop ball you saw stuck, that the discomfort she is exhibiting is probably related to poop backing up in her rectum and possibly even her colon. She may have definitely lost some motility in her rectum (just like ppl do as we get older). I also see that you mentioned alfalfa pellets. Even watered down, I have heard of these causing some pretty significant constipation and colic in horses, especially if they are not big drinkers. Do you not have access to regular alfalfa hay? If you do, it might be worth gradually working her over to that. Some nice leafy stuff should help her stay a little 'looser'. Just introduce it really gradually though to avoid a belly ache. Also have you tried adding a little oil to her grain? Some corn oil or even mineral oil might help 'slick' her up a little too.

She is a really nice looking older mare by the way. I wouldn't know she is pushing 30 without you saying so. So glad you included the video.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 1:40 pm:

Hi Jennifer I have never heard that about alfalfa pellets. Honestly she only gets a handful twice a day and that's it. It's more like alfalfa tea!

I did start giving her one small leaf(about 2lbs. of alfalfa) about a month ago. She's such an easy keeper I have to be careful. I bought her an Uncle Jimmy's hanging ball to keep her occupied during her stall rest...unfortunately there is plenty of sugar in them, but she can't get much and just licks it. I hung it this morning and maybe those things make them thirstier as I have seen her at the water bucket quite a bit today.

Though I do believe movement is probably key, it isn't real possible now, with her bowed tendon and ice on the way for the rest of the weekend. I told hubby I was going to build her a small pen in the back yard (after the ice goes away) and got the "normal hubby speech" how it was going to rip up the back yard ect....but he'll get over it!!

It's odd how it just happens sometimes, I have noticed her "doing her thing" more often this week. Whether it's coincidence or not I haven't been hand grazing her this week, since a co worker got hurt and I had to work extra hours. I hope it is as simple as slower gut motility and nothing sinister is going on inside.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 1:59 pm:

I'm telling you, Diane. My solution should be tried!

I have never heard there was a problem with the alfalfa pellets either. I serve mine well soaked because I'm afraid of choke, which I once had a horse do when fed them. He was a "pig" of an eater though, so that might not be a common problem. If you are giving her just a handful, I wouldn't think it would be a problem.

It should be noted, too, that I find Arabians don't drink as much as other breeds of horses, so you just have to know what is normal for her to drink. I have mixed a little gatoraid or molassas in water to get them to drink more. Also, like you, made a "soup" or "tea" of alfalfa or other pellets.

If the Uncle Jimmy's hanging ball is like the lollypop (?) balls I bought, be prepared for a messy horse. Also, hang it where you don't keep hitting hit when you clean. I foolishly hung one in the middle of the stall, thinking it would be more of a challange for the horse to bite it. I wound up hitting the thing with my head and getting molassas in my hair - a mess. Also, the horse got it all over her face. Handy wipes cleaned it up pretty good, btw.
Member:
shirl

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 3:02 pm:

Hi Sara and Diane, and others,
Just a quick note here, though I'm no expert - I put 2 T. of Iodized Salt (regular table salt) in Sedona's mineral mix. She still has a white salt block that she uses a lot, and drinks quite a lot of water, not an overly large amount, but more than she would if I didn't add the salt. Just a thought. Horses seem to love salt.

Cheers,
Shirl
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 5:47 pm:

5 - 10 gallons sounds like enough to me,Diane -- especially when it is not hot outside.

This fairly large mare who has just arrived at my farm isn't drinking any more than that so far.

Like Sara said, horses differ as to their need, it seems.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 6:45 pm:

Vicki I thought it was plenty and for the time she's been on stall rest it's consistently been the same. Sometimes a little more sometimes a little less...but at the minimum 5 gals. She is around 13.2hh. I'm really starting to think it is because of lack of movement. I'll be glad when this weather straitens out so I get her out a little more. Now I have those stupid snowballs to worry about tomorrow I'll be getting my exercise at the crack of dawn again!

I know when my vet was here when she coliced and had her "Theraputic" rectal he said something about a possibility of a fatty limpoma.... that was in 06 or 07 (not sure) and I'm hoping if it was that, the symptoms would be worse....I hope anyway.

Thanks
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 8:17 pm:

Hope that you are right and that it is slower due to the lack of activity, Diane.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 12:11 am:

LOL @ 'alfalfa tea! How nice! hehe

I just have heard many horse people complain about alfalfa pellets as a cause of colic. I personally have not experienced this but have also always steered clear of them. I really have never had a need for them since quality hay is almost always available in the southeast. I also may have misunderstood as to whether you were talking about alfalfa pellets vs. alfalfa cubes, as these are different types of forages. Cubes provide more bulk and roughage than pellets do. I was thinking this was the main source of forage she was getting and just thought it was worth bringing up.

In thinking about all of this I was wondering... Other than the few handfuls of alfalfa pellets (or cubes) what other sort of roughage is she getting? Is she still getting a flake of alfalfa? I scanned down the thread looking, but the thread has gotten so long, I probably missed what type of hay/forage you feed, so I apologize again if this is duplicate.

I too agree that the lack of exercise, is a huge factor. Even hand grazing her once or twice a day, could made a big difference in her gut motility and digestion.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 6:18 am:

Jennifer I wonder if you are getting colic and choke mixed up. I HAVE heard of the pellets and cubes causing choke. That's why a lot of people soak them...especially for the oldies.

She gets pure grass hay (nice and clean) for hay around 8#'s a day and her 1 small leaf of alfalfa/grass mix. Handful of soaked alfalfa pellets/safechoice twice a day. Started her on a psyillium product last night...figured it couldn't hurt.

Sara thanks for the warning on the hanging ball I can see how they could make a mess out of your hair!

Wonder if hubby would object to me hiring her a nurse to hand graze her twice, cold hose, poultice, wrap her leg, and clean her "palace" OH and a psychiatrist too

Thanks for the help and ideas everyone. Now that I know the reason for her odd behavior at least I can try to treat it. Even tho the cause isn't real clear.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 9:46 am:

Jennifer alfalfa loosens stools in the vast majority of horses not cause constipation. As to gut motility and age, I don't see a big problem with impactions is well cared for older horses but any neurological condition of the spine might interfere with proper defecation and the incidence of these certainly go up with age. I have occasionally seen the unfinished poop ball in a horses anus.

Does it sound like your horse occasionally gets a poop ball left at the anus then elevates the tail because it feels funny...possibly. As to treatment I am uncertain any treatment is warranted. If you were having recurrent colics I might feel different but it often a mistake to go fooling with diet because of the occasional poop ball left at the anus.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 10:49 am:

Dr.O. just to satisfy my curiosity, the unfinished "poop balls" you speak of are they "left over" from a BM or they the beginning of a new BM????

Her poop ball that was "stuck" was not from a previous BM I don't think, as she hadn't had a fresh BM from that morning. I cleaned the paddock in the morning before I left.

I don't think she colics in the normal sense, but will stretch out as in the picture above in the beginning of this thread and will paw occasionally, lift tail straight in the air, weight shift. So I do believe there is some discomfort, tho not terrible associated when this stuck poop ball happens(which is not all the time). Last week I saw her standing stretched out in the paddock right before for dark, she seemed fine otherwise...the next morning there was feces all over the paddock fence, I couldn't figure how she had done that without sitting on the fence. Since my discovery of the "stuck poop ball" I wonder if she rubs her butt to help release her BM somehow. I did notice scratch marks on her butt the day the fence was pooped on. Yes, I know it could be coincidence but she hasn't been scratching since then or before that.

Thanks
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 11:12 am:

No I am not getting them mixed up w a choke. I do know about the potential for a choke with them (another reason I avoid them soaked or not). I apologize because I did not mean for this to turn into a debate about alfalfa pellets or cubes. I was merely bringing up something I've heard horse people talk about as a possible cause for their horse's colic. As with anything I hear, I take it with a grain of salt and always think in the back of my mind that there were other factors that could have caused the problem. Maybe the alfalfa cubes in the old days weren't as well processed as today??? I don't know... I just thought it was worth mentioning and was just as relevant as any other suggestion mentioned here is this discussion.

I personally, see no need to use alfalfa pellets or cubes unless a horse can not chew 'real' hay or dependable hay is not available. Why feed your horse something processed when you can give them the real thing? If it is more of a treat then that's one thing, but in this case I thought it was the main source of forage so I thought it worth bringing up concern.

Anyhow, I am sorry I brought it up. Glad you found your answer Diane.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 11:42 am:

Jennifer there is no debate here and I'm always glad when people suggest things...that's how we all learn I have heard more off the wall things than alfalfa pellets causing colic, I come up with a few doozies myself Doesn't mean it is wrong and sometimes it's right! If she was getting more than a handful (which you didn't know) I would consider it plausible in her case. Alfalfa doesn't agree with one of my geldings at all....and leads to gas colic with him. So always throw your ideas out it might help someone Of course we have to "discuss it"
Member:
stek

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 12:58 pm:

Jennifer, I personally feed alfalfa pellets (as a supplement to grass hay) because there is zero waste, and when I feed alfalfa hay the horses tend to scatter it to get to the leaves, wasting half of it (or more) in the process. Just food for thought!

Also as far as I know feeding corn oil doesn't help with gut motility as it is digested rather than passed through, though mineral oil would if you can get them to eat it. Dr O please correct me if I am wrong?

Diane, with regard to the 'leftover poop balls', I have seen this happen numerous times over the years in horses of different ages, breeds, etc, with no other symptoms and never had it directly associated with another problem. In your case your mare does have another symptom (the tail sticking out), so my first guess as others have said would be some reduced motility due to her current inactivity, but I would look for something more before acting. Hopefully it will be nothing .. I think you have your share of problems right now!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 2:50 pm:

OK I won't go looking for trouble That tendon injury has me confused enough. I am going to keep giving her the psyllium for awhile.

I'll be glad to get her a small pen built, hand grazing her is a chore, she tries to drag me all over the yard to try a taste of each patch of grass. You'd never know there was a thing wrong with her when grass is involved

Thanks
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 5:19 pm:

Diane,

I do use psyllium one week of each month for "sanding" my horses due to the uniqueness of my location although I know that many question the effectiveness of this practice. It is something that I feel works for me.

One thing that you do need to be aware of if giving it, however, is that even though many use it as a good "digestive aid," it can cause the production of extra gas, especially if the horse does not drink enough water, such as during an extremely bad cold snap.

When the weather is really cold I sometimes hold off on starting the psyllium for a couple of days.

I did once have a mare develop an extremely bad gas colic that I thought was due to stuffing herself with coastal hay, not drinking enough water plus a good dose of psyllium.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 9:21 am:

Diane, considering the nature of the defecation reflex I am betting left over from a past one: maybe that is why it was dry. But you can certainly monitor daily keep notes and let us know what you find.

Jennifer I don't understand why you are sorry you brought this up. This is how you correct mistaken knowledge and help others learn. There is a relation between alfalfa and colic but it is not impactions, it is with excessive gas production when the horse has not been adjusted carefully to the amount being fed. However your question is a good one, "why feed cubes of pellets if a good quality alfalfa hay is available?". Besides the reasons you list I would also include: cost vs weight benefit in some locations and storage problems might make processed alfalfa more reasonable than hay.
DrO
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 12:37 pm:

Dr. O, I totally appreciate correcting mistaken knowledge. This is how we learn and I by no means claim to be an expert. But just to clarify, I was speaking about "Alfalfa Pellets" not Alfalfa in general, as a cause of concern. I completely understand the advantages and disadvantages of feeding alfalfa pellets/cubes and I think it is very important for people to understand that pellets and cubes are two different things. Here are some good articles from The Horse discussing this:

https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=4752
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=8898

I only brought up what I had heard about alfalfa pellets because I thought it was the ONLY forage her horse was getting and thought that could be an area of concern. My experience is that pellets of any kind in a horse that may not be a good drinker and doesn’t get adequate roughage, can cause problems and maybe even impactions.

The reason I am sorry I brought it up is I feel like it started a bigger discussion about alfalfa pellets that took away from the original purpose of this discussion - Diane's mare, the possibility of gas colic, her discomfort, and the fact that she seems to have stuck poop balls in her rectum on a regular basis. I was apologizing to Diane for getting everyone off on the wrong track. I also felt like everyone was a little quick to judge my thoughts while I see many other ‘debatable’ ideas that have been left un-discussed. Honestly, as much as I hate to admit it, I was beginning to feel a little like Charlie Brown here. LOL
You guys might need to go a little easier on the new girl!

My email is posted on my profile so if any of you would like to discuss this further, feel free to email me.
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 1:58 pm:

Dear Charlie Brown...um, I mean, Jennifer,

I reread above and didn't see where you ought to feel judged. In fact I thought Dr. O's responses validated your questions, and I for one, thought your information was interesting.

I guess one problem is that in writing, it is difficult to add the nuances that "gentle" peoples opinions. I think most people posting are really kind and open. Usually if a slight is taken it is totally unintended.

One of the reasons I enjoy this board so much is being able to read so many points of view, and people like you often bring up things that I never would have thought of. One never knows when someone's suggestion hits the nail on the head, so please don't be afraid to toss things out there! I'm sorry you felt attacked.

As far as getting off topic, we all do that occasionally (me, right now!). Don't worry, Diane is pretty good at getting us back on track, tee hee! Right Diane?
Erika
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 2:36 pm:

LOL! Thank you, Erika! Really I didn't feel 'attacked' at all - maybe a just little picked on, which was the reason for the Charlie Brown reference. LOL Please know it was meant with a fair amount of humor. I just had no idea people felt so strongly about their alfalfa pellets! LOL

And yes, humor and kindness do get lost in written words sometimes - I realize that. Discussion boards are notorious for that. Something said in person with facial expression and voice tone can be taken totally differently than on a board. Thank goodness we have these smileys or we would be in real trouble. Although I have yet to find the Charlie Brown smiley! hehe

Anyhow thanks again Erika!

~ C.B.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 3:11 pm:

Jennifer, you should know by now that horse people feel pretty strongly about almost every thing they do - from feed to riding style! I've never met such an opinionated bunch....except for me, of course! I'm quite reasonable.

And, for the record; I feed cubes when traveling with horses and at shows because they take up a lot less room and are less messy.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 4:30 pm:

I draw the line at keeping notes on my horses poop balls I get bored when we have bad weather, but NOT that bored!

Jennifer I hope you didn't think I was attacking you! AND I NEVER get off subject... someday when it's raining glance through the lounge's post and you can see how we ALWAYS stay on subject Different trains of thought can take you many interesting places...Dr.O. just try to present us with the facts so we stay somewhat grounded!
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 9:24 am:

LOL, Sara! Yes us horse people are very opinionated and that may be why we get along better with horses than people.

Diane, LOL at notating poop balls! I don't blame you! And no... I did not feel like anyone attacked me, especially you.
Member:
annes

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 4:41 pm:

Diane - I don't want to see notes on poop balls, I wanted you to take a picture!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 5:15 pm:

Ann, don't encourage me! If she keeps it up you may see the backend of her with a stuck poop ball.

Good news, vet said since she is being quiet she can go out in a small pen, I built her one next to her "stall" and it made her very happy AND she can move a little more..hopefully the leg will be ok.

She is loosing a little weight, she decided she don't like Uncle Jimmy's hangin ball one bit!!!...Way too much work for little reward.

The poop balls, stretching out, and tail lifting disappeared with her small turnout. I still lock her in at night..I trust her, but those geldings really have spring fever and are NUTZ! I wouldn't put it past them to spring her from jail in the middle of the night.

She seems very content and happy now. Hopefully the leg will heal up ok in time, I do put her SMB's on during her "turnout"

Happy horse out of Jail, now if her waitress would make the pen a little bigger so she could get some grass! The servant still has to hand graze the princess...the things we do for these animals!

Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 5:44 pm:

Servant?? I think you meant "slave" Diane!

Glad she is doing better.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 5:56 pm:

Slave is right.

If I had a dollar for every hour that I have spent "hand-walking" for one reason
or another . . .

Glad that she is happier and doing relatively well,Diane.
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 7:17 am:

Glad she is feeling better, Diane. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she continues to improve.
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