|
|
Discussion on Mystery sore back, weak hindquarters, exercise intolerance problem???
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2009 - 11:31 pm:
OK, so I've posted about my horse previously under the EPSM thread, but we've ruled that out (maybe??) so here I am again.
}Background: TB gelding, just turned 6. Purchased off the track a year and 2 months ago. Purchased from a small-time dealer who re-sells racehorses. She'd had him 6-8 weeks and put some basic dressage training on him. Told me the track trainer said he was too quiet and didn't want to run. The horse was remarkably quiet when I first saw him at walk & trot, canter was pretty exciting though! She could get this horse jogging like a peanut-roller QH, said this was the quietest TB she'd trained and biggest training challenge was getting him quicker to respond to her leg. She could also jazz him up and wow was he a fancy mover. I looked at the horse 2X, first with an experienced horseman and 2nd time with my dressage trainer. Both agreed this horse appeared 100% sound as as the price was not expensive we skipped the vet exam. Both commented on his very active hind end and quality gaits.
First couple weeks I had the horse, we just did light walk-trot work on a long rein & some lungeing. Week 3 started to pick up the pace and some cantering. Horse started lugging on the bit and became difficult to steer. Had vet out- he floated the teeth as they were very sharp. Horse even more fussy with bit, vet came back and found canine tooth that was still under the gum line and sensitive to the touch. He cut through the gum tissue to expose the tooth and I gave the horse the winter months off to heal. During this time, the trainer observed that the horse appeared very downhill, heavy, and resistant to going forward under saddle, but when lunging in a halter or loose in the arene noticed absolutely no lameness or other symptoms.
Started the horse in work in the spring.
Despite the occasional "TB moment," this horse is generally very sensible. Very good ground manners, on the ground quite even-tempered, never moody, overall quite wonderful. Under saddle, a different story. Sometimes a very fancy, even extravagant mover with lots of energy and fire. People remark on his uphill movement, active hindquarters, and potential for dressage. Other times sluggish and appears to be a poor mover, with a downhill tendency and no suspension in his stride. People look and wonder what they ever saw in this horse, he's just another that'll max out at training level.
I have ridden and trained quite a few horses, but never one that progressed as this horse did. One day every transition or engaging exercise makes him engage more and more, the next day the same exercise make him more and more heavy in my hands. Give the horse a few days off and he feels great, ride him at moderate intensity for a couple days in a row and I'm back on that Western Pleasure horse.
Switched trainers. One lesson the trainer's gushing about the horse's potential, how did I manage to find such a nice mover at that price, of course you'll be able to ride 3rd level on this horse. Next lesson, gosh, what was I thinking? Most TBs just don't have the movement for dressage.
Observations:
Horse seems to feel better after more than 1 consecutive day off. Feels generally good for 2 days in a row of riding, but day 3 the Western Pleasure horse is back. This may be coincedence, but days off with more turnout seems to produce better results than days off with mostly stall time.
On bad days, he's very sluggish and won't go forward. Walk on contact is the worst, whether under saddle or in side-reins on the lunge. He may have a big, ground-covering walk when allowed to stretch his neck out and down, but shorten the reins and ask him to come into any type of frame and it looks/feels like he's been tranqualized. He is not tense or resistant, just suddenly feels like somebody's tied a lead weight to his feet. Give him his head, and he improves. Trainers agree, not a training issue.
Given the choice, he generally chooses to carry his head/neck long and low. Of course, in a hyper moment it's straight up in the air, but when calm/normal the longer and lower that neck the better he moves.
Switching farriers to one regarded as the best in the area for sporthorses did not help. The farrier did notice some heel soreness, but resolved when we put front shoes on him. He has a bit of the typical TB long pastern/low heel conformation. Farrier also noticed RF leg appeared shorter than LF, put a leather pad under FR shoe for 2 shoeings but then said it resolved and went back to shoeing normally. He did occasionally stumble and often stood with LF out in front of body with RF underneath before the pad, leading to the diagnosis of one leg longer. That went away after the pad was removed.
When the horse gets downhill/sluggish/heavy I can carry a whip and get him to move forward. However, he does so in an uncharacteristic manner: head up, back hollow, takes quick short strides.
Trainer #2 thought the horse just gets lazy sometimes and nothing is wrong with this horse but an overprotective owner. Trainer #3 (well respected Grand Prix dressage trainer) also originally thought this, had me carry a whip and push through this problem, thinking he just needed to work through a bit of muscle soreness and he was getting fit and strengthening his topline. However, continuing to work this horse resulted in remarkably sore topline muscles (so bad the massage therapist accused me of abuse, saying this horse is the most sore of any horse she's EVER worked on. Also, trainer #3 observed that engaging exercises (is transitions, lateral work, turn on haunches, etc.) that should make the horse progressively better actually make this horse progressively worse.
Canter is very weird. When I first started working this horse, the canter way typical racehorse full-out run. After 2 weeks of work, it was getting much better. Then, went through a period where he would "hop" behind like we was going to switch leads behind in every corner. After that, canter got progressively worse, less balanced, more of a mad scramble. Occasionally for no discernable reason, on some days he'll strike off in a beautiful canter, but normally his canter is much worse than when we started working on it at the very beginning of training.
When worked regularly and pushed through the sluggishness, the horse's low back and top of rump become noticeable sore to palpation. When not being pushed, they are not sore to the touch.
Massage therapist suggested tying up or EPSM. When in work, she found extreme soreness in all muscles, expecially the topline. Did notice old scar tissue in RH rump muscles, esp the one that runs vertically down next to the tail. However, muscles everywhere are sore, even the muscles between the ribs are all knotted! We tried giving 1 month off with just some light lunging, and she said the soreness/tenderness was gone but described his muscles as feeling partially contracted all the time, lacking the normal elasticity.
What we've tried:
Bloodwork, including muscle enzyme panel, all came back completely normal. However, the vet pulled the blood with the horse standing in the stall after a couple days off. I wonder if it would have been different if he'd pulled blood right after working the horse. However, the vet said this definitively rules out EPSM.
I put the horse on the EPSM low card/high fat diet anyway, has been on it a little over 2 mos now. Had the diet OKed by equine nutritionist to be sure we meet Vit E, selenium, & other requirements.
Lameness exam reveals nothing. Vet commented on thickening and lump in RF pastern but does not think this is related. I may not be able to spot a subtle lameness, but with 3 well-respected dressage trainers watching this horse you'd think somebody would have seen something.
Changed saddles 3X, makes no difference.
Tried a month of no riding with 3-4X weekly lunging to build up muscle without carrying weight. Weirdness: some days the horse goes straight from walk to canter to walk, does not want to trot at all. Other days he's happy to trot. On trotting days sometimes when I ask for canter he will canter a lap then suddenly kick out violently with both legs and break to trot, or "bunny hop" behind. On these days it's like he really would like to canter but something hurts when he does??? Of course, days when he really wants to canter a lot also coincide with hyperness and lack of turnout so maybe this is related to "hyperness" factors more than pain. When he doesn't want to trot if I force him he looks fine at trot. This is lunging in a halter, no tack. In relatively loose sidereins he is same at trot/canter but really hard to send forward in walk, walk appears stilted/choppy.
Tried 2 chiropractors. One does nothing, the other chiro does acupuncture as part of the treatment and this does make my horse more perky and move better but doesn't last more than a week. Both chiros are at a loss to explain my horse's behavior.
Though this does not appear to be a joint problem, I've given IV polyglycan monthly for about 6 mos. It makes no difference, so he's no longer getting it.
Bute 2g/day for several days makes no difference.
My vet thought ulcers were the problem, so we treated with Omeprazole for 30 days. Made no difference. The horse can be a bit of a finicky eater, but continues to be so despite the treatment.
Twice when this horse has been trailered, he has been lame the next day. One time he clearly got rubbed by a boot he was wearing and that was presumably the cause. Other time, not sure but it resolved in a couple days. This is the only time I've seen him lame. Probably coincedence, but ??? I was driving right behind the trailer and other than sitting on the butt bar he stood like a statue and did not scramble or do anything weird in the trailer.
I can tell when the horse is sore because he will sit his rump on his stall guard or water bucket. He never does this normally.
Trainer #2 still convinced nothing wrong with this horse, he just has my number. Trainer 3 is moderately convinced, esp after the massage therapist pronounced him the most sore horse she's seen in all her years. Trainer #3 still thinks working him through this is the key, and though I disagree she is a great horseperson and has successfully rehabbed many horses w/physical issues other had given up on.
Vet is stumped. I'm thinking of heading down to a referral clinic, but as all the usual things have already been done we're probably looking at bone scans, muscle biopsies, and not hundreds but thousands of $$, which I cannot afford.
Can you think of anything I should try? I'm wondering if Lymes is a possibility? The horse never appears uncoordinated or doesn't know where his feet are. Also, even on his most heavy/sluggish days, if something spooks him he's suddenly light and quick on his feet.
No, I'm not the best rider but on bad days trainers fare little better when they get on him, so I'm ruling out rider error or bad training.
This horse appears healthy and happy in every other way. He is a bit of a hard keeper but his weight is perfect now. Coat is shiny, hooves remarkable strong for the breed.
I've recently given him a month off followed by 2 mos. of very light walk-trot work on a loose rein and he seems like a perfectly normal horse. However, once I slowly worked up to 20 min of trotting the soreness/sluggishness came right back. Might feel great one day and sloth-like the next.
Please advise. Do I give up retire the horse, or is there still hope? I don't have a lot of money to waste, worried about throwing more good money after bad.
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2009 - 11:46 pm:
A couple things I forgot:
The vet rolls his eyes when I mention this one, dismissing it as sensitive TB, but I'm not so sure. My horse appears slow to heal from even the most minor wound, and wounds easily get infected despite proper cleaning and application of antiseptic. At the slightest little nick on his leg, despite immediate cold hosing, this horse will swell like a balloon. I'll be wrapping the leg for 3 weeks for the tiniest little scrape. Wounds do eventually heal without any scarring, but it takes much longer than normal. Horse twice had to go on antibiotics to clear up a minor little cut. Incidentally, all these cuts and scrapes were received at one boarding barn, since moving the horse he's decidedly less accident-prone. Still doesn't explain the slow healing or swelling.
Horse has had mild hives a couple of times, resolved in a few days with no treatment.
On the ground this horse can be a bit frisky, always appears bright and alert, but not what I would describe as nervous or tense EVER. Overall he is very well adjusted, gets along with everyone at every barn (2 legged or 4). I would describe his personality as that of a labrador retriever.
He won one race, a sprint, as a 2 yo. Never won anything after that. He has 6 owners previous to me listed on the papers. Bred in KY.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2009 - 8:19 am:
Ang could you copy and paste this post in the original discussion? Having the earlier information at our finger tips helps create better replies.
DrO
|
Member:
warthog
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 12:10 am:
wow, how strange.
I was initially thinking cardiovascular but that wouldn't cause muscle soreness necessarily - but I guess it could just from impaired curculation.
As far as a horse "having your number" I think this is much less common than people believe. For a horse to deliberately choose to be uncooperatuve once it figures out what is being requested many many times is because cooperating is painful. Most horses, especially at that age, just aren't that devious. There are a few but they've usually had some really bad experiences with people. And it doesn't come and go. Theyre either uncooperative or they're cooperative. That's what leads me to think "pain response" of some sort or just plain tired.
slow healing is common with diabetics and I think I read that type I was diagnosed in horses. Pretty easy to check blood sugar levels but I wouldn't know what was normal for a horse? You could try testing a couple of normal ones and compare to this one. slow healing is also characteristic of a person with weak heart function. Maybe you could price an ultrasound to check heart function? Impaired circulation causes all sorts of problems. we had a mini DrOp dead from a heart defect and another one that belong to a friend did the same thing so hereditary or congenital heart problems do exist.
This guy's symptoms are waaaay abnormal.
Lyme disease is also really strange. Isn't there a test for it also?
I think I would email some of the major vet clinics like the one that worked on Barbaro to see if they have any ideas and please let us know if you get any breakthroughs.
One other weird one we had was a Meckels diverticulum strangling three feet of intestine. he was just DrOopy for months before he had a crictial episode and was diagnosed and repaired.
but the high infection rate and sore muscles along with all the rest - something is just really wrong here.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 5:54 am:
Ang, sounds like you may have addressed his front feet, but what about his back hooves? Is he shod in back too? I had a horse once that acted somewhat like this, turned out he had sore back hooves. He didn't hoof test sore or anything, but we decided to try back shoes anyway and he was like a new horse.
Could you post a picture of your horse and his hooves?
|
Member:
drtrish
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 1:23 pm:
Ang,
Sounds a lot like my undiagnosable problem child! I know exactly what you are going through and you are probably at your wit's end. I suggest finding a holistic veterinarian or a naturopathic physician to evaluate your horse. I broke down last week and did that for my horse. Turns out she gave me more useful information than any vet I have seen. She found slight liver damage in my horse from exposure to chemicals, which has in turn made him slightly diabetic and that is why the EPSM diet is helping him. She also said the liver damage can mimick neurological symptoms. Funny, because when I had my horse at Purdue U they said to "just ignore" the liver enzymes that were slightly off. How she "tested" my horse through "energy" is extremely weird and off the wall, but when conventional methods fail it doesn't hurt to look at alternatives.
Good luck!
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 12:44 am:
Sorry I've been AWOL for a bit but it's been a crazy week.
Dr. O, I had originally posted a thread under EPSM but now I'm thinking that's not it, which is why I started the new thread. I don't think there is any additional background info there anyway since I practically wrote a novel for this one 
I will try to get some pictures of my horse to post here. I tried attaching the only one I have at the moment, which is silly but cute. However, the program won't let me because it says the size is too big.
I'm pretty sure the hind hooves are not a problem. My farrier is really good. He would have found a problem if one existed in the feet.
When a normal horse gets a small cut, how long does it take to heal? I can't really quantify this, but it just seems to me that my horse takes longer than most. And I know cuts can get infected on any horse, but mine seems rediculous. Like I said though, my vet rolls his eyes and thinks that I'm just being paranoid on this one. He is a TB and a chestnut at that- not known for being the most tough and hardy of creatures.
I did not ride this week due to time constraints, just lightly lunged him. He looked great all week, then Friday he looked sore again. He really wanted to canter, but looked really short and kept switching leads behind or breaking to trot. At trot, his stride was short and he did not want to go forward. However, I did not observe any unevenness or lameness, just evenly short on all 4 legs. Then Saturday he looked completely normal again. He has not been outside all week, just turned out in the indoor, and I was there on Thurs while he was out so I know he did not do anything weird. So why sore on Friday? Who knows!
He does not seem sore when I palpate his back.
THis week has been crazy for me, Doug (my significant other) has been worried about getting laid off. His company just laid off about 20% of their people, and everyone else has to take a big pay cut. As his income is the main contribution around here compared to my pitiful earnings, I'm pretty sure a trip to Rood & Riddle equine clinic is out of the picture until the economy improves. Paying the mortgage is just more important. We're worried his company might go bankrupt- it doesn't look good. Who knows whether they could diagnose my horse anyway...
I did find out that one of the feeders has been adding sweet feed to my horse's grain for the past few months on days she works. I threw a fit so hopefully that won't happen again. Maybe that's why the EPSM diet wasn't working and some days he looks fine but not others???
As for holistic veterinarians, the 2 chiropractors I mentioned are both veterinarians. The one used acupuncture and also homeopathic remedies on my horse. He was at a loss to explain my horse's symptoms. He said my horse feels healthy according to acupuncture points.
And no, he's not a devious horse. I don't think he's faking- he's not that smart 
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 12:51 am:
Here's a photo, not great for diagnosis I agree but very cute! He's very relaxed when he lays down, I've even crawled on top of him and sat down.
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 12:58 am:
On another note, has anyone used White Lightning for thrush? I was looking for Clean Trax but the tack store said this is the same thing except you mix it with vinegar instead of water. Last winter he got a touch of thrush in the heels of the white front foot too, and the Clean Trax worked like a charm with only 2 uses.
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 12:59 am:
Do horses get fibromyalgia?
|
New Member:
ropervet
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 3:47 am:
Ang,
Make sure that the things that you have ruled in and out have been done so in a proper manor.
I have not seen this animal, but having practiced for 20 years I would take another closer look at his feet. Not necessarily looking for pathology, but for a "mechanical" reason as to the pain in the heel and the apparent leg length difference. I have yet to see a true length difference, but maybe Dr. O will disagree. Please try to remember that if the horse has bilateral pain that there might be a "lameness" that you are unable to visual for the simple reason that the animal may be off in both feet thus cancelling the visual limping that so many associate with unsoundness. I tend to agree with warthog as to the behavior issues. These animal have only one way, IMO of showing discomfort. IE they will misbehave, bite, kick, rear, etc but most/if not all do not have more than a single way.(unable to cry/misbehave, verbalize,bite.) A dog can bite and also make a noise that indicates to ones around that he is in pain. This is a different"word" then his bark! The small "swelling" on the pastern might be attributed to a medial/lateral imbalance in the foot. Remember a radiograph (DP/Lat) is the way to diagnose this as the hoof capsule is a flexible structure that doesnt necessarily allign to the bony column. Lastly, as vets we rely on you the owners to help us make a differential list by providing as many details as you can. Do not stop asking questions. I tell my clients that I would rather know all of the details no matter how small and be able to come to a quicker resolution to the animals discomfort, then spend hours, days or even week playing 20 questions.
Good Luck
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 5:57 am:
Ang what was the footing like when he was turned out on Thurs was it frozen ground? IF it was he could have gotten sore hooves from it. I have a problem hooved horse and depending on the footing, he can go from peanut roller and short strided on hard ground/semi hard ground....To moving beautifully from the hind on soft arena type ground.(sometimes)
Even on soft ground he sounds very, very similar to your horse sometimes, He "lost his canter" one year and started swapping behind I thought it was my riding and had a trainer come out. It turned out to be his feet. He is a thin soled beast and his hooves can't take much (fronts and backs) I'm not saying it is your horses hooves, but I wouldn't rule it out either. Have you ever had his hooves x-rayed?
|
Member:
dsibley
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 7:54 am:
Angie, look at the thread I started "Horse falls under saddle...ouch!" What you are describing sounds so much like my Baron that it could be his evil twin!! Kissing spine is something that you might want to explore/rule out. Although I had an excellent farrier, it took one who had knowledge of special issues to do the trick. Baron also had some foot issues, but the main thing the farrier did was to get him reaching under himself more and breaking over sooner. A change in the angles helped tremendously as well.
Baron was so lame and moved so strangely that three vets told me to 'just put him down' to being a breath-taking mover again. I am riding him on a limited basis, just slowly building his tolerance and my courage. A lot of veterinarians don't consider this condition, in fact, the first time I took him to the U of I, they missed it as well.
Good luck!
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 8:03 am:
Ang,
You might have said this in your, um, novel, but how long did you have him before you started "training?" I think some horses need months to just adjust to a new home, new people, and other horses if there are other horses. So maybe I would try just grooming, massage, (don't worry if you don't do the massage "Right" it will help, with his comfort, and he'll love you for it! Jim Matterson(?) has a great DVD on massage you can learn yourself btw)
My other thoughts are based on A) I've learned to trim my horses myself (still learning) so I always think HOOFS!
As mentioned above, any imbalance there can affect the whole horse. And just because a guy puts shoes on him, I would not assume that is helping...just my opinion, but besides imbalances, heels can be too low, bars too high, walls weak, etc. Getting heels to grow back to a higher height is a pain, but some horses do better with a slighter higher heel, IMHO, than the current natural hoof trimming gurus would like.
B) If he has indeed had any injury ever, the massage and time off would be good, and the least expensive route to go. In other words, let him be a horse first, and just watch him.
When you think he's been o.k. for a month or 2, start asking for very, very little in regards to work. I wouldn't do side reins, or small circles at all. Make it fun...leading through an obstacle course for example, or asking him to do the course on the lunge line...but not in circles.
Observe him every step of the way, and if finances allow, you can do more testing or evaluations; but maybe whatever is wrong will work itself out.
I have a horse who likes to buck under saddle at the canter. Does some real rodeo action in the pasture, I still don't know if it's a training issue, or pain. Self taught massage does help him no doubt. He always stands with one hind leg cocked, and massage on his shoulder seems to help that!
In other words, there are so many things intertwined, I think sometimes we never find just one easy(?) answer. Great if we can!
BTW, my oldest mare has periods of staggering. And sometimes she will not move at all under saddle. Sounds pretty severe and scary right? The first time that happened, I've saw signs of a post being hit, fence stretched. I figure some days something pinches in her back. I massage her, and give her time to heal. Just like I need to time of if my back hurts.
Lots of great answers here, be sure to let us know what you find out.
Best of luck.
Angie
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 8:29 am:
Trish, Purdue is right, elevation of liver enzymes is a very non-specific finding in the horse and so common that often you wonder if the normals are correct. It is not diagnostic for liver damage. Stress for instance can elevate them and since many horses find an examination stressful.... For more on this see the article on liver disease and liver failure.
All horses should be treated in a holistic manner with diet and other management factors taken into account but when the practitioner starts rattling chicken bones I think you can be pretty sure how the bones land have little to do with what follows.
Hello DrB, I agree with you about this "unequal leg length". It seems I first heard this idea about 29 years ago, then it got very popular. I would scratch my head look at the horse, get him to stand square and I could never see unlevel shoulders or hips unless the leg was so painful that the horse unloaded the leg. I think that is where it got it's start and was a simple problem of folks mixing up cause and effect.
ang, fibromyalgia is diagnosed by the symptoms the patient reports to the doctor, I don't believe there is a test for it. If you want to continue to pursue this our article on the Diagnosis Lameness starts with the simplest of exam procedures and through logical steps leads you to the most advanced diagnostics currently available. As DrB above says the only way to diagnose this problem will be a logical diagnostic plan. If you feel you have done everything possible to get this horse well and it does not look like it is going to happen, you should act accordingly with your goals.
DrO
|
Member:
vickiann
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 12:11 pm:
What jumped out at me when I began reading about your problem sometime back was what you said about heel soreness. Putting shoes on top of sore heels does not get to the the bottom of why this condition would exist. And then adding a pad inside of one shoe. My farrier would be having a fit hearing about these remedies.
This horse sounds so much like my guy who had heel soreness, supposed thin soles and flat feet, long pasterns. Poor boy struggled for years with various "corrective shoeing" measures and an irregular way of going. Finally his underrun heels were nearly at the "contracted" stage by the time my current farrier first looked at him and suggested that many weeks pass before he would touch the horse, and then the farrier slowly began getting the feet corrected. The underrun heels actually needed GRADUAL trimming while the size of the rest of the foot increased. Cantering had become so difficult that I thought he had forgotten how to do it correctly. Now he has a floating trot and a perfectly normal canter.
|
Member:
dwinans
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 5:26 pm:
I'm also one who has had hoof problems and have had similar symptoms as yours. Sometimes when he cantered it felt like all 4 legs were going in all different directions - when pads were put on behind he cantered normally. I was amazed at the difference when we fixed the angles and put pads on behind.
It's difficult to see soreness in my guy's feet because both front feet hurt at the same time. He has long-toe, low heel T-bred feet. After many years of dealing with bad feet I've started to recognize his "lameness" symptoms. Usually unwillingness to go forward, tense "up and down" stride rather than lengthen, lands toe first, stands with one front foot in front of the other (pointing) - these are signs that I've come to recognize and others who don't know him wouldn't think anything of them.
I would definitely re-consider his feet - maybe xrays are in order.
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 11:10 pm:
A lot of people are suggesting the feet, so I will definately take another look at that idea. I probably should have added more background on the feet before, but I'll do so now.
When I first got this horse, one heel was noticeable lower than the other, and the trimming job was, too put it kindly, amateurish. So, while my farrier (and the chiropractic vet agreed) said that one front leg was functionally shorter than the other. He did not believe it was anatomically shorter, but due to the uneven trimming that had gotten out of hand, the muscles and connective tissue were tighter on the one shoulder if that makes any sense??? I'm not explaining this well but it made sense when they explained it to me. So the farrier put just a regular leather rim pad on the higher heeled but shorter leg for 2 shoeing cycles as he worked to slowly equalize the angles of the hooves. My horse never stood quite square in front before, but after that he did.
As the farrier got the hooves more even, the tight musculature in the shorter leg relaxed and that heel could lengthen, while the other heel was protected and allowed to gain a little height by bringing the breakover back.
We put the shoes on not specifically for the sore heels, but because my horse has such long pasterns the farrier could set the shoes back and give him some heel support. This is impossible to do barefoot. The heels are not underrun (OK, one was slightly when I first got him but that corrected in just a few shoeings). If you were to change the hoof angles somehow to have even higher heels and less toe (ie less steep angle of the hoof) then it would not match the pastern angle which is steep due to fairly long pasterns and that would be bad. I'm probably not explaining this correctly either, but hopefully you get the point.
After about 8 months in shoes we were able to pull them as the angles are all looking good and I'm not riding hard. The farrier says his feet are looking good without the shoes. I have had another farrier look at him about 1 months ago, he thought other than a touch of thrush in one heel (which I also fought last winter) his feet are excellent.
Both vet and farrier have used hoof testers on him with no result.
My horse usually gets turned out in the indoor. When he does go out it's a field with long grass and not at all torn up, so it's pretty soft on his feet. But he's rarely been outside since December. He is particularly thin soled, especially for a TB. I can walk him down the rocky driveway without him being ouchy (not that I'd do that very much though!).
I will maybe get another farrier to look at him though. I'll try to get some photos of his feet in the next few days to post here. I do get some conflicting advice concerning shoes. People say "shoes are the worst thing and all horses should be barefoot," and other say "put 4 shoes on him, no wonder he's lame if he's barefoot."
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 11:14 pm:
Also, he never misbehaves. He's really the most accomadating of horses. I can tell he's sore when I really have to push him. He'll always do what I want if I really insist, but when he's feeling good he's just a lot more willing. Also I usually know when he's sore because he will sit on the stall guard with his rump.
Can a horse's feet be sore if he doesn't react to hoof testers?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 6:15 am:
Hello Ang,
Foot lameness can be missed with testers. To learn more about diagnosing lameness in the feet including the interpretation of hoof testers see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot.
DrO
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 7:23 am:
Ang, if he is thin soled shoe/pads could help him. I used the equipak cs for my horse...it helps treat thrush and also keep it away.
The good thing about shoes is they can come off if they don't help . When I put my horse in the wide web shoes(routed out so no sole pressure) and equipak he wasn't sensitive to hoof testers, but his sole was flexible. His sole actually thickened up after wearing the shoes/equipak. I guess because his thin soles were given a break. His movement was like night and day. He is barefoot now for the winter, but come riding season he is going back in a wide rim shoe I'm not fighting it anymore
Proper trimming/shoeing could go a long way for your guy and it's a fairly cheap experiment FME anyway it's hard to get the thin soled comfortable barefoot. It is possible to thicken their sole a bit with proper trimming, and using sole toughening preparations, but that never quite did it for my guy. With a wide web shoe...don't need the equipak anymore..he went from a "discombobulated" trot....can't canter.. to using his hind end again and willingly doing a collected canter. Matter of fact he felt a little too good and would throw a couple bucks in!!
Good Luck hope you find out his problem.
|
Member:
rtrotter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 2:21 pm:
For all of you barefoot folks looking for a solution to putting shoes on your horse, look at www.easycareinc.com.
They have just come out with a very lightweight, but durable boot called the Easy Boot Glove. It comes as a glue-on or with a gaiter that does not require any glue and a full set can be put on or taken off quickly.
For my needs, most boots are way too heavy, these are very light. I like the fact that they can be taken off because I do not think my horses need anything on their feet when they are out in the field ( which is where they spend much of their time)but they do need something to balance out the good stimulus of moving and the wear on their feet they get from jogging and training.
I always feel that we do so much good from giving our horses balanced trims that keep them sound, only to possibly wreck it all by nailing shoes on them that basically destroys whatever good we have done up to that point, not because of the shoes, or the nails necessarily, but because of what needs to be done to the hoof in order to put the shoes on. All the work to build good hoofwall, concavity and thickness in the sole and good hoof balance almost always gets lost after a few sets of shoes.
I am not saying that sometimes, shoes are not necessary but if there is another option, I would like to try it.
IMO, the most important part of keeping my horses sound is keeping the balanced HPT trim as an ongoing part of their hoofcare because it keeps their entire body as structurally sound as possible (no hoof, no horse). Unfortunately, my trimmer is different from my farrier and my farrier does not under stand the HPT trim and feels it is unnecessary. So,I want a solution, that will alleviate the need for the farrier and shoes if at all possible. The easyboot glove appears to be that solution.
I think these easyboot gloves are the ticket, but I want to try them before the final verdict is in.
Ang, could you post some full shots including feet from the side, front and back of your horse.
Lets hope its your horses feet that turn out to be the problem.
Rachelle
|
Member:
vickiann
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 6:28 pm:
If you are looking for horse boots I bought some of these (Renegade) in North Carolina this summer.
They are great and a lot of the winning endurance riders are using them.
https://www.renegadehoofboots.com/news.html
About the rocks, my farrier encourages walking on asphalt or river rock to toughen the feet and when the feet are in balance they self-trim quite nicely if enough time is taken to get out on some hard surface.
Getting out of shoes and having a great farrier has been like a miracle for all of my horses.
|
Member:
angrary
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 1:01 am:
I realized I never did get back to you guys about my horse. I was going to take some photos of his feet for you, but at the time I was working him real hard every day in an attempt to make this problem bad enough to produce a visible lameness that could be diagnosed and I succeeded. I had long been suspicious of his RH leg, just a little niggling feeling. It turns out it was his right stifle all along.
I always thought a horse with a stifle problem would display that characteristic "hitching" gait and clear lameness. Turns out that sometimes the symptom can be just a reluctance to go forward, a feeling that the horse is heavy on the forehand, and while appearing totally sound just does not seem be a good mover. Sometimes I would watch my horse trot and wonder if I had been on crack the day I bought him (where was that suspension and powerful gait I remembered? Was I delusional or had he really changed that much???)
Anyway, turns out that when I really pushed the horse (primarily through a lot of lungeing) and he got sore enough, he did display the characteristic hitching gait of a stifle problem. And there was even some swelling in the stifle area. So turns out we were all wrong.
About the same time as this happened, my life imploded. The very morning I found my horse lame and called the vet, my boyfriend of over a year and a half announced he was breaking up with me and I found myself moving out. I'm about 6 months away from finishing my Master's degree, and with having to pay my rent all by myself and school expenses and the horse, it just got to be too much. I ended up giving my horse back to the girl I bough him from. She is going to rehab him and use him for light trail riding and possibly 4-H for her niece if his stifle holds up. So that's why I never got back to this discussion. Anyway, thanks to all who tried to help me get to the bottom of this strange not-quite-lameness in my poor Dunkin. I miss him, but now I know that he was never going to be the dressage horse I wanted and at least he has a good home now.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 8:13 am:
Thanks Anj for updating us. I wrote recently that a large part of good horsemanship is finding what works for you, here we have the second half of the equation for good horemanship: finding what works well for the horse. It sounds like a good future for this horse.
I would like to comment on stifle disease and lameness. First there is no typical stifle lameness, pain anywhere in the hind limb is pretty similar because of the "reciprocal apparatus" which ties the degree of joint flexion together. I do not know any work that supports this notion, personally have not seen such a case, and is contrary to observation that many horses with obvious low grade pain in the stifle move forward willingly.
DrO
|
Member:
hollyw
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 9:26 am:
Ang,
Life is unpredictable, isn't it? You are handling it well, and in the meantime have made good decisions for your horse by diagnosing his lameness and finding him a good home. Often, when life gets in the way, animals and kids are the ones to suffer for it. You are to be commended.
Dr. O., I have reread your last sentence a few times and am not sure I'm understanding it. Are you saying that horses with low-grade stifle pain DO move forward willingly?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 10:34 am:
Yes Holly many horses with a obvious low grade pain that blocks in the stifle move forward willingly. In other words with no more urging than needed in a sound horse they will trot though there is hip hike and shortness of stride.
DrO
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 11:51 am:
Ang, I just came across this thread--don't know how I missed it. Sorry you are having a rough go of it right now. You sound like a person who will land on her feet in no time, though, and I wish you luck.
I also want to tell you that I admire you for putting so much time, energy, and (gulp) money into finding out what is wrong. Your decision to let your horse do what he is most capable of is a testament to your kindness.
I hope when things are financially better, you are able to find your dream horse.
Erika
|
Member:
lilo
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 5:57 pm:
What a tough break, Ang. Good luck to you, and I am glad you found a good home for your horse.
Lilo
|
Member:
vickiann
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 8:54 pm:
Wishing you good days ahead, Ang.
|
|
|
