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Discussion on Jumping horse flexes badly
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 11:39 am:
Dr. O, My daughter's now 8-year old Canadian Warmblood Sporthorse purchased nearly a year ago competed very successfully ridden by her trainer last spring and summer in level 6 jumping. She is a talented, careful jumper with great speed.
My daughter had been competing with her over lower jumps last month, as she is working to better manage the horse's power and speed.
When it was time at the training barn to routinely inject hocks about a month ago, my daughter told the Veterinarian that she wanted her horses checked first to make sure that this treatment was actually indicated.
Her older, proven jumping horse flexed better than the younger mare, who flexed badly. The hocks were injected and no improvement was seen.
Next her stifle joints were injected. No improvement was seen. In fact, the mare seems worse.
The Veterinarian had prescribed some lighter exercise to try to diagnose the problem but the mare has now began stopping, acting as though her back hurts.
She is not lame and hasn't been. It is routine for her to receive monthly Adequan injections though she was given a more frequent course of treatment after flexing badly.
On Sunday I noted that her muscles seem quite tight all over and I don't know whether this is because she is in pain or is in exceptional condition overall.
She was very receptive to massage and I was able to work quite a bit of tightness out of her lower back, in front of her hips. When I put my hand downward and placed it on her right hock she was very reactive.
Now I realize that I should have paid more attention to whether there was swelling or heat but after how she reacted I felt reluctant to bother her more in that area.
The horse has been standing with her legs pushed out behind her, which for her is apparently a pretty typical stance.
The Veterinarian who has so far worked on diagnosing and treating her did not look at her feet and did not think that her stance was important diagnostically.
As she is in shoes, it is hard for me to evaluate her feet, though generally they look better than many of the other jumping horses. I tried to determine if she is level by using a piece of hay string and it appeared that she is longer on the outsides of her front feet, while longer on the insides of the rear feet.
I suggested to my daughter that she allow my farrier to assess the mare's feet but she is concerned about making her own farrier mad.
Before my daughter purchased her I had thought (though I am no expert) that sometimes she looked a little off in the hind. She has the kind of fetlocks that lean back, which now that I think of it, appear now to be considerably less back than they appeared a year ago, but I could be mistaken and will recheck that against old pictures of her.
Tomorrow I am scheduled to help haul this mare to see the Veterinarian who previously examined her and injected her hocks and stifles. This is not the Veterinarian who did the pre-purchase examination because he was not readily available. The pre-purchase was done by someone who specializes more in racing than in jumping horses.
I have read all of the articles about hocks.
Does anything jump out here that you are suspicious about, would suggest, or that we need to ask about? Any direction or impressions are appreciated.
If anyone else has any ideas or impressions, please jump in here too.
This is a very sweet mare and I would surely like to help resolve Fancy's pain issues, and hopefully get her back to work again.
Thank you, Vicki
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 11:57 am:
Vicki, I have a question for you.. you injected those joints without x rays? It is common to just come into the jumping barn and inject ,, just becus.. ?
I ask cus I have a mare that needed the hock injections thru X rays and lameness eval.. My trainer says she needs then again , not becus she is off , but becus her attitude is different ..Well I don't like just injecting becus you can.. it is invasive , I want a reason to / lame not attitude..
Sorry I was so long winded.. this injection stuff is new to me and I am finding out more and more folks ''JUST DO IT''..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 12:32 pm:
Ann -- I agree entirely with you.
I do know that my daughter had a very thorough pre-purchase exam including X-rays but I am not certain about what all was looked at.
The Veterinarian who has recently been treating the horse said that the other Veterinarian probably did not evaluate in the way that should have been done for a horse that would be jumping. Actually, I don't know whether this Vet saw the prior X-rays or not.
When the joints were recently injected, no new X-rays were done but the treatment was in response to "flexing badly."
The synovial fluid, while plentiful, apparently looked thin.
I injected a horse of mine 3 years ago due to Veterinary advice based not only on flex tests but upon X-rays that showed DJD. His fluid was also declared, plentiful, but thin.
I have a niece who competes in hunter and jumper also, and with jumping horses the joint injections seem to be done routinely but my daughter, in my mind, correctly questioned this practice.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 12:36 pm:
Vicki,
Is the mare on any kind of joint supplement? I understand that there are limited, if any, studies that actually demonstrate effectivity of such products, but have personally seen what I believe to be good results. Conquer or Recovery EQ seemed to me to provide a quick improvement. Like Ann, I don't like to inject joints as a maintenance deal, I worry too much about joint infection.
If only they would tell us what's the matter. I had a horse that acted off in the rear. After springing for a soft tissue scan, we found out that he had pulled a glute muscle. Amazingly enough once I mentioned this to someone at the barn she said something to the effect of "oh yeah, I meant to tell you that he got cast in his stall about a month ago". That said, you might want to ask the vet about possible soft tissue injury.
Good Luck!
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 12:57 pm:
Hey Vicki, DrOp me an email at chrisbriding@ca.rr.com. I received an email from a far left friend of mine that I think is pretty funny. Others may not agree but I think you may like it.
Chris
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Member:
aannk
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 1:16 pm:
Vicki,
I would recommend a nuclear scintigriphy scan. I used it on a horse who was NQR in the rear (got him from Canada too) and it found a broken pedal bone that no one else could identify. If you have insurance they should cover it. It will point out areas of inflammation. I also do not routinely use injections and have jumping horses, though I know of many barns that do give the injections.
Alicia
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 5:33 pm:
I just found out that the Veterinarian who we are going to see tomorrow did examine the hock X-rays that were taken nearly a year ago. He said that they were normal except for slight arthritic changes.
Chris, I think that my daughter has both of her horses on oral joint supplements as well as routine Adequan IM, but I will mention what you have tried to her.
Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I will E-mail you.
It would be wonderful if this was a muscle pull that will heal.
Thanks Alicia. I will ask the Veterinarian about your suggestion.
My daughter does have insurance on her horses but I am not sure what all is covered.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 8:52 pm:
Vicki do I understand this right? The trainer was doing well with Fancy, Your daughter was doing well.
They had her flexed, flexion showed hock pain? so they injected her?
Was she showing problems before the flexion and injections? It sounds as if she was doing well up until then?
When I worked at the event barn, I saw many horses flex bad, but were perfectly fine jumping 5 foot. I did ask the trainer about that and he said ...depends on who's doing the flexing and who's determining the end result
IF she was ok before the injection, wouldn't you have to wonder if that isn't where the problem started...or am I confused again
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 10:43 pm:
Diane, I understand why you are asking this question, and I guess that I am not so sure myself about the answer.
Fancy had not been used too much for a few months due to my daughter's schedule, though she has been exercised. She did okay with my daughter riding her, but not great. And of course, she was jumping low jumps since my daughter is still getting used to handling her. (She jumps her other horse that she has had for three years higher).
My daughter has only been seriously jumping competitively for four years, while her trainer (who she has only been training with for one year) has won many Grand Prixs.
Fancy did not show any improvement after the hock injections nor the stifle injections, but has become seemingly worse after the stifle injections and exercise targeted at evaluating the problem.
Very interesting, Diane about the flexing perhaps not being always of extreme importance and I think that I remember reading that somewhere here before. Thanks for this important observation about flexing and jumping. This Veterinarian is supposed to be especially good with legs and feet but sometimes when I've thought that before (word of mouth) about others it turned out to be untrue.
That is why, I guess, that I try to be informed, ask questions, and learn as much as possible.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 11:06 pm:
Vicki, I guess what I don't understand is what was her problem to begin with...before the flexion test and injections. If I understand right your daughter was being proactive in having the flex tests...which led to the injections?
I have seen more than once, the type of horse you describe as Fancy "powerful with speed" jumper not look so good as the owner was learning to "harness" this energy, and look completely different with a Grand Prix rider aboard.
Have they tried a simple course of bute to see if she would improve?
Or blocking?
I hope it's something simple, she sounds like a wonderful, fun horse
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2009 - 7:56 am:
No Vicki,
I don't see anything specific including a firm diagnosis of anything being wrong. Flexion tests are notoriously inaccurate at predicting lameness as are notions of sensitivity based on how a horse responds to a touch or look. Based on your post I would go back farther than a diagnosis of a hock lameness and instead concentrate on whether lameness is present at all, for more on this see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse.
Concerning the prophylactic use of joint injections I do not know of any evidence this is a good thing and every time you do it you run a small risk of septic arthritis and permanent lameness.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2009 - 8:56 am:
Thanks, Dr. O -- This all makes good sense to me, and the horse is not lame though we have been worrying that she may become so.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2009 - 9:40 pm:
"Rare diagnosis" is not what we had hoped to hear.
First I should state that before the stifles were injected, Fancy did have some lameness, which I had not been aware of.
Also, she has had difficulty with flying lead changes and cross cantering.
When my daughter stopped riding her due to these and other problems last month, the trainer's assistant rode and showed her and recently Fancy began stopping at jumps resulting in his falling off, although he is an expert rider.
That said, when we saw the Veterinarian last evening he re-evaluated her joints, legs, foot landings and way of going at walk, trot and canter.
He said that the joints appear to be fine and he also X-rayed the stifles and feet. The right hind foot could use some minor improvement with the palmar angle, which is quite straight, if I understood correctly, but this is not felt to be very significant or causing the major problem.
He checked her back and found it sore, and worse in his opinion than the last time that he evaluated her.
Through a rectal palpation, he found the ovaries normal.
Ultrasound showed, from two different angles what appears to be a hole and roughening in the dorsal sacral ligament. There was also evidence of "bone tearing" on both sides of the ligament.
This Veterinarian stated that only about 1 out of every 300 cases that he evaluates for such symptoms actually turns out to involve the back. To find a tear in this ligament is "quite rare" according to him.
To confirm the diagnosis, the next step that he has recommended is a "bone scan" (Nuclear Scintigraphy) and another ultrasound by another Veterinarian at an equine hospital facility.
He said that ultrasound can result in the "creation of artifacts," which he does not believe to be the case since he sees this hole in two different dimensions, plus the appearance of the roughening and "bone tearing."
If the diagnosis is confirmed, he recommends shock wave treatments and up to a year off including being kept quiet and confined to a large stall/small paddock area with hand-walking.
Any long lay-up for this horse will likely result in me providing for her care on my farm.
Doing a little research, I have found some sites that recommend stem cell therapy and acupuncture to speed ligament healing, though the shock wave therapy is all that we have so far been told about.
Any opinions about any of this, Dr. O?
Thanks, Vicki
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Friday, Feb 20, 2009 - 10:17 am:
Yikes, It stinks to be "rare" on that end of the scale. All I can add is that if you do stem cell, it's unlikely that you'll do shock wave. Good Luck!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 20, 2009 - 3:23 pm:
Thanks, Chris
The Veterinarian seeing this horse told us about another even worse case that resulted in a complete recovery after three shock wave treatments and a year off (that part is really hard to fathom as I hate having horses laid up in the barn not able to be turned out) after which a jumping career was resumed.
He told us that they usually check the progress by ultrasound about every 60 days to see if healing is progressing.
He also voiced the opinion that the probable injury has existed for at least three months, based upon the appearance.
But this diagnosis must yet be confirmed by the next step.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 9:52 am:
I like the idea of trying to find further support for the diagnosis, this area is notoriously variable anatomically for more see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Spine, Back & Pelvis » Lower Back Pain in Horses. Normal radiographs are not a good way to rule out lameness of the area pictured, I would feel better with diagnostic anesthesia including on the back lesions.
Though either treatment modality might have some benefit, I would wait and consider the question when the lesions are better defined. For instance the degree of tearing and age of injury is important in the consideration of stem cells. The support of shock wave in soft tissue injury seems a bit iffy to me but if there are tearings of the attachments to the bones, maybe see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Treatment Methods » Extracorporeal Shock Wave Therapy. There has been an odd decrease in shock wave research in the last two years leaving us hanging with more questions than answers about its use in soft tissue injuries.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 10:53 am:
Thanks, Dr. O and Diane.
This gives us more to go on and to know what questions to ask next.
I will study the pages referenced.
The appointment for Fancy has been confirmed at the hospital for Monday.
The Veterinarian who we have seen and the one where we are going have both supposedly gone through extra training that very few others have, under one from France who has concentrated on this area of the body and who I believe is supposed to be responsible for the improvements made in correctly injecting the sacroiliac joint.
Before treatment or a year of lay-up we want to know with certainty that the diagnosis is correct.
I am amazed how farriers (and to some degree, Veterinarians) are not concerned when a horse's feet are not balanced laterally and medially.
The Veterinarian confirmed that the right rear foot is longer on the outside even though she had just been trimmed that day and had the shoes re-set.
Diane, the veterinarian explained that he frequently encounters cases where the very best of riders can get on a horse that is actually clinically lame and "fix" them while riding. Their skill level is sufficiently expert to overcome serious physical difficulties. This can lead to cases where injuries become progressively worse over a period of time.
I see that I neglected to answer your question about Bute and blocking, Diane. More than likely, Fancy was given Bute leading up until the time that it needed to be withdrawn for showing. I don't think any blocking was done and that was something that I was expecting at the last appointment, but apparently the Veterinarian felt that he could draw sufficient conclusions without doing so.
He has been very thorough with explaining things to us, but as I read more and more information, I have more questions.
Thanks again, and I will keep you informed.
Insurance for the horse is for "mortality only" as the policy does not include coverage for "loss of use" or Veterinary care.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 10:22 pm:
What a wealth of information.
Thanks for directing me to these sites, Dr. O.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Feb 23, 2009 - 8:29 pm:
It is probably premature to post, but results from the bone scan showed: soft tissue phase: no uptake from the lower back. Bone phase: no uptake. Hind legs: some uptake in the right hock and the left stifle (asymmetrical uptake VS the other side).
Next step is the repeat of the ultrasound by this Veterinarian tomorrow.
Perhaps the prognosis will be much better than indicated after our appointment with the other Veterinarian.
Increasingly, I am again concerned about the imbalance in the feet existing now and in the past as a possible factor?
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 7:10 am:
I know I am not understanding the results of the bone scan, Vicki. I hope the second opinion will help pinpoint it for you.
It seems incredible that it could all stem from imbalances in her feet, but that would be the easiest thing to fix with a good farrier and time . . . and it does seem, from reading recent posts on hoof imbalance, that a farrier with a good eye and skill is one of the most important gifts we can give to our horses and ourselves.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 8:30 am:
Why not correct the imbalance and see what happens. Concerning the nuclear scan results, areas of suspicion should be followed up with diagnostic anesthesia instead of further imaging whose results would be of uncertain significance.
DrO
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 9:42 am:
Vicki,
When they did the nuke scan did they do a soft tissue scan in addition to the bone scan? The last time I went that path, they were able to do both. I don't remember if it required a different isotope.
Regarding imbalance in the feet, one vet did radiographs of my horse's foot, then marked it up to show the farrier exactly what needed to be done.
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 2:53 pm:
It's been my experience that improper farrier work can not only cause a horse to go lame, but it can cause general body soreness as the horse attempts to compensate for imbalanced feet. So, it can look like back or other issues, when in fact the source of the problem is the feet.
If I were you, I'd concentrate my efforts on getting the best farrier you can find to fix this guy's feet. Might be all you need.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 4:45 pm:
Yes, they did do a soft tissue scan too, and there was no uptake.
The second Veterinarian (who is now finding no evidence of back soreness) after doing his own ultrasound confirmed the presence of the lesion as found by the first Veterinarian.
But they have differing opinions regarding the significance and recommended treatment, with the original Veterinarian advocating a longer lay off period, no work for months, and the shock wave therapy and the second one saying forget the shock wave therapy, take a shorter time off before gradually phasing into exercise again. He also said that a year from now the ligament may look just the same even though the horse may be 100% with regard to being able to be back at work. He does not seem to feel that re-ultrasounding to check for changes in the future would be particularly helpful.
My daughter will have to decide exactly what to do but I think she wants to give the horse enough time off to have the best outcome so will probably opt for the longer layoff without any work. In any case, the horse will be coming to my farm to have her time off.
I cannot wait to get the shoes off (I have suspected that she has heel pain under those heavy shoes), let her be a horse (but I guess we don't want her to run around too much?) and have my farrier get her feet into perfect balance.
Thank you all for the advice and input. I appreciate each comment very much.
Your recommendation seems very sensible to me, Dr. O.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 5:36 pm:
Fancy will arrive at my farm this week or next for rehabilitation. She is scheduled for the shock wave therapy and the veterinarians who have assessed her situation have decided that she can be turned out without confinement or limitations in a safe pasture area.
They have also cleared her for breeding.
I wish that I had read Dr. O's article about breeding mares before I agreed with my daughter that it might be fun to see if we could get a Grand Prix baby.
I have NO experience with foals and am now thinking of that horse T-shirt that says "I need my head examined."
My husband is not happy about the mare coming for rehabilitation.
To be continued . . .
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 9:03 pm:
Vicki, hubby's never like us to have too many horses (if that's possible). Babies are sooo much fun (usually)!
Good luck with the rehab, what actually was the final "diagnosis"?
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Member:
mitch316
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 12:31 am:
Dianne and Vicki, we have the opposite problem here! Here the wife doesn't like me or the boys (we have 5 sons) to bring home animals...but we have a zoo: horses, dogs, cat, snakes, turtles, and even a bobcat once. My oldest son want to be a zoologist, and the next two want to be vets. Wife is a city slicker who thinks animals should be seen from a distance, ha. But maybe we have her slowly coming around, as she feels really bad for the rabbits that become snake food! Gross I know, but they have feelings too and must eat as well. When I DrOpped out of Vet School, I went for the herpetologist(which is zoology with reptile specialization...or a biologist, depends on which school), but ended up with a Masters (soon to be PhD) in Psychology and Christian Counseling. But that is another long story. we do a drug rehab and hope to incorporate the animals in our education and even treatment plans. Horses are very good for teens battling drug problems.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 10:09 am:
Vicki,
When I had my 32 yr old gelding, my husband once commented that "you love that old horse more than you love me" to which I replied "I love you every bit as much as I love that old horse". He laughed and agreed that taking care of Lonesome was probably good practice for me taking care of him eventually.
Good Luck with the rehab.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 10:18 am:
Ha, ha , Chris.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 10:34 am:
LOL!
....practice
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 6:14 pm:
Thank you all.
Diane, The veterinarian's (both of them) diagnosis is that this is a dorsal sacral ligament tear.
They originally did not agree about how severe it is or what the treatment should be, so we are taking the more conservative road, with a year long lay off time and the shock wave therapy.
My daughter's trainer and his assistant were not convinced (and probably still aren't) that the Vets are right and tried working Fancy lightly while thinking that it had become a "mental issue" for Fancy. The assistant (also a professional rider) got dumped in front of a jump again (first time was into the liverpool)!
Jesse, Your household sounds familiar! All of my family seems to have too many pets of all kinds and also is rehabilitating wild animals or DrOpping them (and a check) at an approved rehab facility for wild animals.
Chris, loved your husband's quote and your answer.
My husband (and those of my best friends) knows better than to ask me to chose between him and horses.
Life with geldings for the past several years has been so much simpler. My older boy thinks he is a stud every time a mare is around (and he does NOT get over it).
This will be very interesting to say the least, but here I go on another "learning experience."
I NEVER thought that I would be participating in the baby horse process so have done little to learn anything whatsoever it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 7:24 pm:
Vicki would carrying the weight of a foal aggravate the injury? OOOPs just saw that you said the vets said it was OK
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 7:49 pm:
Good question, Diane.
What the Vets are thinking is that by the time that Fancy gains weight with the foal, she will be amply rehabilitated, so I am hoping that they are right.
Increasingly I realize that a lot of rehabilitation has to do with simply enough time off, whether racing or jumping. Most frequently the horses are not allowed the time off that is required for healing and the Vets know this and are happy to have it happen any way possible (as with impregnating a mare).
It is risky financially to take these horses out of their particular circuit.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 9:54 pm:
Fancy arrived at my farm this afternoon after a shock wave treatment and having her shoes pulled.
She already appears to be standing better.
The manure in my daughter's trailer looked normal but after arriving at my farm Fancy is very gassy and passing small, projectile diarrhea stools.
My very old gelding, Buddy, who so far is failing to shed out this year, is already in love with her.
We had to put up some extra electric fencing to keep Fancy away from the cross fencing and Buddy sniffing her and she kicking at him and the fence.
I fed her half of her normal grain tonight since her system seems kind of touchy with the change in her location.
My daughter brought two bales of the hay that she has been eating plus a couple of bags of grain so that changes can be made slowly.
There is some grass for her to eat in her designated area, but not enough so far to overload her system.
Husband still not happy that she is here, (but thankfully not making a huge deal about it) because he knows how little spare time that I have in my daily life.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 8:52 am:
Thanks for the update Vicki, concerning the more comfortable stance remember that shock wave induces a temporary anesthetic like condition following its use: this may be further indication that the localization is correct but don't over interpret the therapeutic meaning of this initial improvement. There is more on this in the article on shock wave treatment.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 9:07 am:
Thanks, Dr. O.
Fancy's trainer had palpated her back before the treatment and found it to be sore.
Also, I am really happy to get those heavy jumping shoes off her. She is showing no signs of foot soreness.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:11 pm:
My farrier examined Fancy today, and her back when palpated shows some tenderness but she is not in the least bit lame and moves around strongly and vigorously.
While the analgesic effects of the shock wave therapy should be long over, Fancy still no longer stands the way she did when she was in shoes, including not continuously lifting her rear heels up off of the ground.
Though she had been recently trimmed, he found her quite un-level in all feet and on the right rear, where the X-rays showed the flat palmar angle, her heels are practically on a level with her frog. The shape of the heel bulbs on that foot have distorted due to the use of heavy jumping shoes, according to him. She tends to set the foot slightly forward now when standing around rather than setting both legs out behind her as she did before the shoes were pulled.
The shape of her feet is too pointy and though trimmed recently she is building up defensive tissue on some areas of her soles in response to what he calls "farrieritis."
He feels that in a very few months of being out of the shoes and being properly trimmed, we will see a huge difference with her, so I will let you know how things progress.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 6:23 pm:
Vicki wouldn't it be nice if it was as simple as bad farrier work. I hope she continues to improve.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 8:37 pm:
Thanks Diane.
She is a magnificent mare who deserves a chance at rehabilitation, which is why I have signed on for this duty which is more than I really needed to take on.
My life with the geldings only over the past several years has had ups and downs and challenges, but mares bring so much more to the equation.
But YOU know about all of the horse ownership challenges, don't you?
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 12:06 pm:
I do not show horses; i only ride trails for pleasure, and much of what I know is from reading other people's opinions. I apologize in advance, as I suspect my questions are probably not smart ones, so thanks for putting up with me.
Do jumpers that are ridden in an arena really need shoes? What are "heavy jumping shoes," and wouldn't the extra weight of them challenge the muscle/skeletal system of an athlete already involved in super-sport performance?
I don't understand this routine hock injection practice. I thought that joint injections allowed a horse to perform in spite of physical insult, which potentiated more serious injury or compensatory injury. Reading here, it sounds as if it's a regular practice.
Can anyone reliably predict the healing timeline for this mare's back? As a two-legged creature, I'd observe that even in the best circumstance, pregnancy is hard on the old "sacroiliac!" I know, two and four legged are not the same, but still...
It sounds as if in any case it will take a year to find out if you have a sweet jumper or a fine brood mare. I hope her home care goes well and it all turns out in a satisfying way.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 1:13 pm:
Susie, not stupid questions! Anyway, haven't you heard that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked? If you don't ask, you remain "stupid" forever!
I will let someone who shows jumpers answer your questions, though I suspect the heavy shoes are to get the horse to pick up the feet higher? But, that's just a guess.
I also question the hock injections; not necessirily in this horse; she may well benifet from them. But, I do think it's a fad sort of thing. A lot of trainers seem to push them because "so and so" gets their horses "done" and "so and so" wins a lot. Then, everyone wants their horses "done" in case it helps. My feeling is that any injection into a joint carries with it the possibility of infection of the joint, however small that possibility is. Why invade a joint unless you know the horse will benefit from it? That said, we have had our older stallion on hock injections and they have helped him. Our vet, however, told us he didn't have much fluid in his joints, was begining to get arthritis, and he felt the injections would help him, and I think they have. They type of injections he is getting, and that seem to be "popular" today are Adaquin injections, not a pain killer type, which I think was used sometimes in the past and may be the type you are talking about.
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Member:
mitch316
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 1:42 pm:
OK, well I have another "stupid" question then. Would hock injections not be considered "performance enhancing drugs" in professional events, unless they were medically necessary?
For the record, I am an "au natural" type of person, that is, if a horse cannot do it on their own, there is probably a good reason for them not to do it...but you know us humans, we will do almost anything to win. Just look at what atheletes do to their own bodies...if the desire to win would cause them to cause that much damage to themselves, imagine what us humans would do to a horse that can be exterminates or "traded" for another once we wear them out.
Oops, on a soapbox again...but back to the question, would injections that are not medically necessary be considered performance enhancing drugs? BTW, the new testing procedures are probably going to be a reality after the fiasco's at the last two derby's.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 2:04 pm:
Thank you Sara for the explanation, and Jesse for your observations about the why's of it all. I was thinking about the practice of using steroid injections for sore knees in racehorses. Of course the last time I heard about that was probably 20 years ago . I guess I am lucky that my involvement with riding is a leisure activity with no competition goals or schedules. If either of us is the least bit sore, we just rest up to heal up.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 2:27 pm:
Those are all very good questions and I agree a lot of this is very overdone and does not result in what is best for the horse.
It takes time to educate and change common practices and brave individuals to do things a better and different way that also results in winning.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 3:34 pm:
The Adaquin shots help prevent further injury and make the horse more comfortable, wheter he is performing or just walking in the field. A lot of people don't want to spend the money for a horse that is just walking around in the fields, so it's used more on performance animals. I look at it the same way I look at Celebrex or Tylonal. Are they "performance enhancing?" You could say they are; I have osteoarthritis and have days when I'd be lying in bed without them. So, yes the are "performance enhancing" because they allow me to move without stiffness and pain. What is the difference?
I am NOT for using drugs which mask pain or "dope" the blood. These types of drugs are what I would regard as "performance enhancing." If you want a good education about what is and isn't allowed in show horses, go to the USEF or FEI site and look under "drugs."
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 6:13 pm:
I agree with what Sara said about the joint injections and the Adequan.
Sometimes the joint injections do seem to be indicated and they calm down inflammation thereby allowing the quality of the synovial fluid to improve and that is beneficial.
But I don't think that they should be simply used as a matter of regular routine.
I use Adequan monthly for my horse most ridden and my daughter uses it for her jumpers.
I think the idea with the shoes is that the clips make them stay on better and running them way back to and past the heel provides better protection and support but according to my farrier this actually puts more pressure per square inch on this area, if I understood him correctly, and the clips and more substantial shoes further inhibit the natural flexibility of the feet.
A lot of what is done with the horses boils down to the practices in the particular barn where you board and train.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 4:26 pm:
Fancy is doing well.
My farrier is very pleased with how her feet have been remodeling.
She has been standing normally although she did park out with her back feet for a few days just before her last trim when her feet were getting a bit long.
When her shoes were pulled, my farrier said the hoof capsule was twisted and her heels were not located nicely square across from each other, which he said was from shoes being put onto unbalanced feet over a period of time.
At liberty, Fancy has been moving very normally and no longer flips leads nor cross-canters.
Over time the pain that she had in her back moved further and further back in amount of sore area until she recently shows no sign of a sore back.
We have not yet been asking anything of her but may get a new ultrasound soon to see whether the ligament looks any different.
My farrier says that her feet are telling the story now that she is feeling well and moving normally.
Between the last two trims her feet became very concave and the bars were extremely prominent. I nearly called my farrier in a panic because I couldn't imagine how there could be a good outcome with her walking on very prominent bars like that. Then I remembered that he told me he intentionally was not going to pare out her soles but that they would fix themselves, and indeed they did. One day when I put her on the wash rack the remaining excess bars fell off her front feet when I scraped my finger against them. Had I not seen this happen, I wouldn't have believed it possible. Perhaps this would not have worked out so splendidly had she been out on the trails, but recovering at liberty in my pasture, she has been healing herself and fixing her feet given good care and balance.
The other day when she was mad at Buddy and trying to pick a fight with him over the stall door, he reached out and gave her a little nip on her neck, which didn't even leave a mark.
She was infuriated by this, turned around and kicked the barn and stall door hard, which seems to indicate she is feeling well physically.
Of course, I hated to see her do that, but there seem to be no ill effects.
I will post again as this recovery progresses, and hopefully be telling you that she is back to jumping sometime in the months ahead.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 7:08 pm:
Good news Vicki, hope she is back to jumping soon Amazing what poor trims can do isn't it?
Thanks for the update
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 8:03 pm:
It does seem as though many really bad problems are rooted in poorly balanced feet.
It is not too surprising to realize that compensating in their way of going might cause secondary difficulties or even severe injuries in some cases.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 9:24 pm:
What excellent news I have about Fancy!
Her Veterinarian did a new ultrasound today.
The "huge, gaping hole" in her ligament is now just a "minor ding" -- only a "remnant" with some roughness that may or may not remain in the future, while hopefully not affecting her well-being or way of going.
The hole in her ligament has healed in and the fiber pattern looks much better. She will probably remain here on my farm for another 30 days.
In September, very, very, slowly and very cautiously, reconditioning will begin at the farm where my daughter boards and trains her horses.
Her current trainer is very careful about frequently checking the horses backs, not jumping them too much or for too many consecutive days, and seems to understand the importance of feet that are balanced. No real jumping will happen for at least 90 - 120 more days because the walk, trot, canter, ground work program will last at least 90 days and Fancy will be closely monitored for any possible developing difficulty.
Fancy's veterinarian was very complimentary about the farrier work that has been done since Fancy's shoes were pulled and said to keep on doing what we are doing, and to keep her out of shoes. He went so far as to imply that Fancy's original injury may have been caused by foot imbalance while performing over higher jumps under a demanding schedule.
This improvement and prognosis is truly the best that we could have hoped for!
Diane -- finally some good July news!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 10:11 pm:
Just in the nick of time! only one day to go and good riddance to JULY!
Glad Fancy is recovering well . I still find it so hard to believe that hoof imbalances can cause such problems. I have mulled this around and around in my mind. If I go from my human experiences with my injured knee, I suppose I can see how it could. Some shoes make that knee pop, crack and very painful,which makes me walk and stand weird. I finally found some boots I bought because they were waterproof... had a built in roll and breakover at the toe that I didn't realize... Pain, pops, and cracks went away! and they were cheap!
I do know when my knee was horribly painful, barefoot was the only thing that felt OK Wonder if I could do my routes barefoot, once we get out of July I probably wouldn't have to worry about stepping on rattlesnakes!
Hooves crossed for continued healing and ridden work goes well
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 7:56 am:
That's great Vicki,
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 11:57 am:
Thanks Diane and Dr. O.
We are really thrilled about this news.
I guess that we will never know for sure when or how this injury happened or whether it was one event or a gradual tearing.
It is interesting that the original Veterinarian who diagnosed this and the one who we saw yesterday had some differing opinions about the degree of importance of foot balance, as well as the suggested course of treatment.
The first one (who referred us to the second for confirmation)favored up to a full year off for Fancy as the best approach, 3 shock wave treatments as absolutely vital, and keeping the horse more confined during the recovery period.
The second Veterinarian who confirmed the diagnosis (who did the follow up exam and US yesterday) suggested going cautiously back to conditioning work sooner, allowing the horse to be turned out at liberty during recovery and not worrying about using shock wave as a treatment, though he does think that may be useful for maintenance during jumping season in the future.
Since he advised saving our money on any more shock wave at this time only one treatment was done, which did not make the first Veterinarian very happy.
The Veterinarian who we saw yesterday also recommended that Fancy may well benefit from as much turn out time as is possible in the future, including during show season as, opposed to stalling with very little turnout as is so often the case in show barns. He said that turnout is much more important for some horses than others to their continuing physical wellness.
One thing he did caution about between now and starting her working again is not allowing Fancy to get fat, which would cause a longer reconditioning period to be necessary. With ample grass she needs very little, if any feed.
As her recovery progresses, I will post about how she responds to going back to work, and hopefully one day will be able to tell you that she is not only moving well but that she has successfully resumed her jumping career.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 12:44 pm:
Great news Vicki. Let us know how her healing and rehab progresses.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 6:08 pm:
Thought that I should post some good news!
Fancy has progressed to the stage of going over jumps again and she is doing great.
No more problems with her taking the correct lead or swapping leads.
She is much easier to ride than she had been a year ago.
This rehabilitation has all been done very slowly and carefully according to veterinary instructions.
The two Vets are going to confer about the most recent U.S. but things are looking good for her to resume her competitive jumping career.
She may compete again soon.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 7:00 pm:
Wonderful! Good news indeed. Thanks for keeping us updated, Vicki and I am keeping my fingers crossed that she will soon be flying over fences.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 7:42 pm:
This is good news! I'm so glad you have something good going on at least! I know you've been feeling like you've been running a rehab center for horses lately. I hope the rest of your group recovers soon...you too!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 8:12 pm:
Thanks, Fran and Sara.
I am grateful to be able to report some good news and will hope that more will follow for Fancy, and my boys too.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:01 pm:
That's great Vicki, thanks for the update
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 11:27 am:
Yeahh - good news! Good luck going forward, Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 4:07 pm:
Thanks!
I am trying to focus on good things to keep me going these days.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 7:48 pm:
Fancy has been shown successfully the past few weeks and she is doing great.
There is someone boarding at the same barn as my daughter who loves riding her and wants to buy her but has a horse to sell first.
Fancy is not yet being asked to jump as high as she was before her injury, but we are encouraged with how well she is doing now, including no more cross cantering or stopping.
She seems to enjoy being back at work and she just wants to GO!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 9:43 pm:
Good news, things are straightening out in your horse world... bout time huh! no more of this LOL.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 11:30 pm:
There is lots of work to do though, with the feet of my daughter's horses after the shows are over.
We're not liking some of the shoeing, but hopefully we'll get it right!
They put shoes back on Fancy for the shows and I fear that she will soon again have crushed heels and heel pain.
The other mare, Circa, continued to over-reach the way she was shoed, causing a repeat injury to the back of a front foot. Two Vets said that she is compensating in her way of going, causing a backache and other stress.
Even my daughter's gelding who usually doesn't have problems slipped or tripped while wearing studs, causing a cut on his belly from the studs, but fortunately he did not fall down. However, my daughter lost her stirrups because of this on a jump off and could not get them back, so had to jump the last five jumps with no stirrups. Because she had slowed down to try to get her stirrups back, she came in at fifth place instead of what probably would have been first.
I'd love to see my daughter jump without shoes on her horses but I don't know whether it will work or not for her horses.
Fancy was doing great out of shoes.
Love that icon, Diane. I'm going to use it if we get rained out of riding tomorrow!
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Member:
jones
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 3, 2010 - 2:23 am:
Vicki,
When your horse was diagnosed with the dorasal ligament tear, was that via rectal ultrasound or surface ultrasound? (I guess dorsal would be visualized from the top but the joint seems very, very deep) How long was she "off" before you found the tear?
My vet is recommending 3 shock wave therapy treatments for my horse's SI joint but we have only done the bone scan, no ultrasound has been performed.
Do you think the shock wave was helpful or more the level trim? My horse is barefoot and his back feet always look awesome....His fronts, not so much.
What is the rational for using shoes while jumping? Steel seems to be the last thing I would want to land on!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 3, 2010 - 3:19 pm:
Jones,
Two different Veterinarians who have taken extra training about this kind of injury did the ultra sounds from the exterior top side.
The horse was noticeably "off" for nearly four months before being diagnosed if I recall correctly.
The two Vets disagreed about the need for the shock wave therapy so my daughter only had the one treatment.
Fancy did very well at the shows this winter and is jumping 3'9" and gradually and cautiously will be tried at greater heights. She was very successfully competing at level 6 before her injury.
I agree with you about the shoes. Their rational, I guess, is to protect the hoof and they run the shoe far back on the heel apparently for more support and protection. My farrier believes that just causes crushed heels!
Good luck with your horse!
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Member:
jones
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 3, 2010 - 6:21 pm:
Vicky,
Great to hear Fancy is doing so well, what a great outcome. Sounds like you found yourself a great ferrier
You mentioned that she had appeared to have a sore back initally. How did that present its self?
Jones has a sore back but I dont know that it is coming from his SI joint. He lands on the outside of his front right hoof and rolls it in as he progresses over it. Im not sure what my vet wants to do about that. We see the vet again Tuesday.
A neighbor who shoes her horse, gives her horse time off from shoes twice a year, I think the horse is out of shoes 6 weeks twice a year.
It seems, biomechanically, that a horse shoe that is long in the back would act as a rigid lever once it hits the ground and would slam the front of the hoof into the ground once the heel lands not allowing shock absorbtion by the hind hoof.
Is it a rule that horses have to have shoes to jump in competition?
I have started putting boots with pads on Jones 12 hours a day and am getting deep sand put into the turn out so he can walk comfortably.
I dont think we are going to get the shockwave treatment. I cannot find a thing on it for this type of injury. The vet said she has research that supports its use for the SI joint so I will see what that is.
Thanks for sharing your experience
Lesley
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 4, 2010 - 11:36 am:
Lesley,
I believe there has been some recent evidence that in the case of a bona fide ligament tear, the shock wave may be helpful with the healing.
It seems that many Vets use it for backaches in jumping horses during the show season but some think that this is a temporary analgesic that can mask pain. There is also some thought that it could be harmful when used this way but I haven't spent the time to try to sort it all out.
After receiving the shock wave therapy we were told that Fancy should take it pretty easy, at least for several days or longer. Since the pain is temporarily lessened, they may potentially overdue their physical exertion causing additional harm.
What seemed to be the best therapy for her was pulling her shoes, balancing the feet and giving her turnout on my hilly pastures and allowing the time off necessary to heal.
Fancy had obviously been compensating for her pain with her overall way of going.
She did exhibit pain in the rear back area when palpated by the Vets and farrier, but was additionally painful in other areas as well. At times she seemed as though her muscles were stiff and sore all over and she was noticeably sore in the hind end overall.
Horses in pain can tighten up all over with pain showing up in what would seem to be unrelated areas, it seems.
When Fancy first came to my farm she was not moving normally in her way of going at liberty although she was not at all lame.
The way that Jones is landing on the right front foot certainly sounds as though there is compensation going on.
Hope this helps -- let me know if you have any other questions.
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Member:
jones
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 4, 2010 - 12:48 pm:
Thank you Vicki,
I hope to find that info regarding ligament tears and shock wave therapy although, I dont know that he has a tear, just the right SI light up on the bone scan as did both front navicular bones.
I hope to start with the fronts as a foucus of treatment. Not sure what can be done, a friend said her horse had a tildren injection that worked very as well as well as pulling the shoes...first they put "theraputic" shoes on him and that made him much worse, but since Jones doesnt have shoes to pull and his feet are balanced, Im not sure what is next
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 4, 2010 - 1:19 pm:
Leslie,
One other thing about Fancy was that her hind quarter looked slightly different too, before the healing took place.
It just didn't appear entirely symmetrical to the trained eye from one side to the other when examined from the rear, or as nice and round as when it was healed.
Perhaps this was also because of how she was holding and carrying herself.
Good luck -- let us know how Jones does.
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