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  Discussion on Cellulitis
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Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 9:59 pm:

My Arabian, Perry was lame this morning and based on various pieces of evidence, I thought that he had caught his leg under the fence so hosed, cleaned with Betadine scrub what appeared to be a minor wound on the fetlock, stalled, then gave Bute at noon because the pastern looked more swollen.

I hosed again at 4:30 PM.

I did notice that Perry did not want the leg touched or handled much but didn't worry too much about that as he can be touchy when hurting.

Thank goodness I had called my Veterinarian who arrived this evening, and upon closer examination (he shaved the hair off the fetlock area) what appears to be a bite wound was found.

An IV was inserted in Perry's neck and the lower leg was poulticed.

I am to give penicillin G injections three times daily and Gentimicin once daily. Also, 1 gram of Bute twice daily.

Thankfully, Perry is bearing weight on the leg with taking the Bute.

My Veterinarian is scheduled to re-examine the leg on Monday.

I am now trying to decide whether I should split the 3 penicillin shots into 3 equally spaced times?

Is there any benefit to continue hosing the leg?

Thanks for any suggestions.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 11:42 pm:

Of course, I know I need to give the penicillin preferably in 3 equally spaced times but that means about 2:30 or 3:30 AM for the second injection, so I am hoping that it is okay to wait until about 5:00 A.M. and then go with every 8 hours thereafter.

Here's hoping he doesn't rub the IV out!

Per Vet, this is "Cellulitis of distal limb/flexor tendons."
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 6:08 am:

Good Luck with the IV Vicki IMHO waiting until 5am would be fine.

What does the vet think bit him?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 7:06 am:

Vicki, in general a 1 and 1/2 hour delay in a q8h (every 8 hour) regimen would not be significant but your veterinarian needs consulting on this. As to hosing I am uncertain if you are referring to wound treatment or to treat the heat and swelling in the leg. In the case of the wound this should be discussed with your veterinarian as for heat and swelling, we have more on this in the article.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 4:40 pm:

This morning the little brake to keep the blood from back-flowing was open but there was no blood in the tube. I flushed with 5 ml of solution as instructed to do after and between injections and then gave the penicillin and flushed again. Then I got very worried that perhaps the IV had become dislodged but I think that it is still in okay.

Mid-afternoon I removed the poultice from his leg, which looks much better.

When I gave the mid-day injection, the tubing of the IV was a bit kinked, which made it kind of hard to administer the medication so I accidentally got more in there at one time than I had intended but thankfully there was no adverse reaction though I could feel the pounding of his heart when I placed one hand against where the IV delivers the medication.

My Vet said that it would be fine to walk Perry around to help with the swelling and I did that too. He does not mind loading that leg when he has the Bute in his system.

He does seem kind of depressed in general and is mostly "off" his costal hay, which is all the hay that he is normally given. I hang a hay bag of O & A for him (only have a few flakes of this hay left) when I am giving the injections, which keeps him busy.

My Veterinarian didn't really know what bit him but speculated dog or coyote.

I noticed this afternoon that the other wound higher up on Perry's leg looks like a puncture wound also and the size and shape and height of it makes me wonder if he could have tried to go after a Bobcat out in the pasture.

There have been some very credible Panther sightings in our area the past few months also, and some reports of wolves, but I am less sure about that.

Then we have the usual other smaller animals such as armadillo (they are ruining my pasture as they have my yard), possum, racoon and rabbit.

One of my other horses has some bite marks on his face including one right above his eyelid and a long, deep wound down the middle of his face, but these are not infected since I saw and treated them topically right after and since they happened. The one above the eyelid actually looks like it could be a horse bite and Perry has inflicted many bites on this horse as he typically does during the cooler winter months during which Buddy looks just terrible. But these are mostly rough-housing bites from very hard play.

What do you suspect caused the bites?

I didn't notice the marks on Perry's leg until he became lame because of all of the thick hair.

My Vet didn't tell me to do any hosing or cleaning of Perry's wounds. The one that is higher up is closed entirely and looks good but I will check the one on the fetlock and decide about that.

Thanks, Dr. O. and Diane.

It is so helpful to be able to read the articles found here and to get advice and encouragement.

This treatment protocol is very nerve-wracking for me, not to mention that I am highly allergic to penicillin.
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 6:41 pm:

Vicki, I would agree that the bites were from a dog, coyote, or possible a wolf. If it was a panther, the bite would be around the throat or back of the neck, and probably fatal. BTW panther (or mountain lion or cougar, whichever you prefer) attacks on horses seem to be rare. Both coyotes and wolves try to "nip" at the feet of both horses and cattle, trying to cause them to stumble or fall, so they can gang up on them. Not sure why a bobcat, fox, or armadillo would bite unless they were defending themselves. I am assuming his rabies and tetanus vaccines are up to date, right? There have been an influx of rabies in both bobcats and foxes, so I would make sure he was watched for symptoms, even if he has been vaccinated. Not trying to scare you, but I just helped an animal welfare officer trap eight foxes, 6 raccoons and 2 bobcats. Three of the raccoons, 5 of the foxes, and 1 bobcat all tested positive. I vaccinated all of my horses today, as I thought rabies was a very remote threat here in Kentucky, but I was proved wrong.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 8:47 pm:

Thanks, Jesse. I do keep current with my rabies vaccines, but this did concern me somewhat nevertheless.

There have been incidents of rabid foxes, coons and bobcat in our area. The number of coyotes is very high and they come very close to our house.

A very interesting thing that I discovered this evening on the paint horse was a nasty bite under his muzzle (shame on me for missing that) and upon closer examination when scrubbing, what appears to be numerous claw-mark puncture injuries (enough for two Bobcat paws) between the muzzle and jowls. But perhaps they were from smaller pointed teeth? Some creature appears to have been attached under Buddy's throat. While I realize that it seems unlikely to have been related to Bobcat (and more so, Florida Panther), we have seen a Mother Bobcat with two grown but young offspring on our property, so it is a possibility.

Buddy's bite injury appears to be the same age as the bite on the fetlock of Perry, the horse with the cellulitis.

These two characters do have a tendency to go after things that are in their pasture (except the paint horse will NOT chase a bovine unless asked to, given his history of moving and roping cattle).

I have seen the Arab chase dogs or anything else, mostly in fun, but the paint horse will strike at unknown intruders. He is the boy in charge and takes seriously the protection of his herd.

One thing that I have noticed as I am spending time up at the barn at night (and you can bet that I am bringing my dogs) is that the horses do seem jumpy at night when they hear things around them.

I cleaned up and medicated the wounds on the paint horse and also those on Perry's fetlock, which I can see still needs to be done regularly as it is a pretty nasty wound and it looks more raw and moist after being poulticed for several hours. The puncture higher up on his leg could be from claws.

There is still heat in the leg, and swelling, of course, but it is not as severe as it was above the fetlock nor extending as high up the leg as it was previously.

I have been having a heck of a problem getting the needle inserted into the catheter without running into resistance and having to try repeatedly. I know that I am supposed to insert it at the center, but it seems to have to be put in just right.

Thanks again.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 9:59 pm:

Leg seems a little better even since earlier tonight, and happily the administration of the IV drugs went more smoothly. Staying slow, calm and steady seemed to help.

Every time I go to tend to him and he has not ripped out the IV/catheter is a step in the right direction.

Now I am going to bed until 5:00 A.M.
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 1:05 am:

Vicki, it seems like you have the injuries well in hand as they can be. It does indeed sound like you have a critter causing them trouble. The fact that they are jumpy leads me to believe it may have not been them doing the chasing, but like they were hit by something instead. It makes no logical (big word in the animal kingdom, I know) that a bobcat would attempt to take down a horse unless it was in self defense. A Panther could do with relative ease, but they do not prefer horses, and I can find very few instances where an attack happened. The two I found that were definitely proved to be cougars (cougars, panthers and mountain lions are the same animal depending on which part of the country you are from) were in a harsh winter and the cats were starving. They have been known to go after a colt, though.

I don't know if its possible or feasible, but you may want to invest in an outside light at the barn. It would keep most of the likely offenders away I would think. May even want to keep a dog posted there, but I do not know your situation. A cat claw mark around the area you mentioned 'could" indicate a defensive bobcat maneuver, but really am shooting in the dark here. Just a thought, but both weasels and raccoons can leave "catlike" marks and both are very aggressive when threatened. A raccoon is no little creature to mess with once its cornered, and is very cat-like in its features, but would have one less claw than a bobcat, unless it latched on and licked with its back feet just like a cat would.

Any way, just some ideas. Hopefully your horses gave the culprits enough of a "roughing up" that they will not return.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 6:55 am:

I didn't know Fla. had bob cats and cougars, I always thought they were further north! Good luck with the leg Vicki and be careful with that Pen!!!!

This kind of thing is exactly why I wanted to give the rabies shot. The wildlife tracks in the snow around the horse pasture are quite remarkable.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 7:44 am:

It is not too good this morning for Perry.

There was no evidence of manure in his stall between 9:30 PM and 5:00 AM.

I had noticed that the last pile that I picked up last evening was looser than normal but didn't worry too much given the antibiotics.

He passed one really loose, shiny-looking one at about 6:00 A.M. and was exhibiting signs of colic.

I had already given the Penicillin shot at 5:30 A.M.

Talked to Vet at 6:00 A.M. and then gave a dose of Banamine instead of the Bute, which was due a little bit later.

Vet says he is having a "little colitis" from the drugs and to skip the midday shot and call him in a couple of hours.

I was really scared this morning as Perry had been rolling and then was lying down acting like he was dying.

I hand-walked him to keep him from wanting to roll and eventually he began picking at grass a bit, then ate a little Timothy hay.

He has been drinking very little the past 12 - 18 hours.

The swelling looks really good -- a bit in the fetlock. There is still some heat in the fetlock and partway up the sides of his leg.

He was willing to stand on the leg at the point that the Bute was getting close to being out of his system, so I guess that is good but he continues to generally act depressed. Vitals seem okay though, so far.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 8:01 am:

Sorry Vicki, When the old girl was acting strange I read the article on colitis. I think it said to discontinue antibiotics if they are on them and anti-inflammatories...you may want to read that article.

Could Perry's injury be treated topically at this point?

Healing thoughts for Perry.
Member:
caballus

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 8:39 am:

A couple of years ago one of my cats came in with obvious bite marks on his head and throat. I immediately gave him a Homeopathic treatment called "Ledum" Within a week he was back to normal .. no swelling, no infections, etc. I've used Ledum for different applications (its noted primarily for Lyme Disease)with success. It can be used WITH your antibiotics as it affects the healing of the body - not just the bacteria or the infection. This allows the body's defenses (immune system)to be able to do its job.

You can get it at your local health food store although you probably won't be able to get the potency you need at this point. I would think that 200c or greater would be needed. Just ONE dose of the 200c is all that you would give. You can find it at www.homeopathyworks.com and will cost you about $7 plus shipping.

An immune system medicine that will increase the system's efficacy by over 400% is called Transfer Factor. If you google "Transfer Factor" you'll find 4Life website from which to order the Stress pak. It has been noted in the PDR for years and is used in many countries for people suffering from Cancer - is administered even before radiation and/or chemo. It contains the two most important "T" cells of the immune system .. they're the "fighting" cells.

It might be beneficial for you to look into both the Hom. remedy and the Transfer Factor
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 8:51 am:

Hello Gwenyth,
We do not believe true homeopathic preparations have any ability to change the outcome other than through a placebo effect after all there really is no such thing as magic water. Also the science behind Transfer Factor is not very good. For more see
  • Member's Services » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistomology
  • Treatments and Medications for Horses » Alternative or Herbal Medicatons » Transfer Factor from 4Life
.
DrO
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 9:11 am:

Vicki,
The whole incidence, especially finding additional bite/claw marks on the other horse, is disconcerting. Are you in a horsey community? Any other horse owners reporting similar injuries?

I hope Perry will perk up through out the day. Banamine always did the trick for one of my old geldings who seemed to gas colic a couple of times a year. He'd look as though he was dying with eyes half-closed, teeth showing . . . and after Banamine, about 10 minutes later, he'd pop up off the ground and look alert.

Glad Perry's swelling is down. Any problems with the injuries on the other horse? I like Perry's name. Never heard of a horse named Perry. Did you name him?
Member:
caballus

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 9:24 am:

With all due respect, I and millions of others have seen the positive effects of homeopathy on animals, infants, seniors and other upon whom a "placebo" would be fruitless. Whether or not "science" can prove it or whether or not one "believes" in it or not does not change what has been experienced.

I'll sign off on this one so as not to cause further controversy.
Member:
canter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 10:07 am:

Vicki, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Perry is OK and comes through the cellucitis and bout of colic OK.

I think the suggestion above of installing a motion detecting light, if you don't already have one, is a good idea. It may keep the critters away, and perhaps alert you to the intrusion so you could respond (you'd have to rig it outside the perimeter of where the horses are so that they aren't tripping the light on all night and driving you nuts).

If the critter, whatever it may be, is attacking your horses, have you considered calling Fish and Game or the Florida equivalent? I would think that whatever is going after the horses would possibly also pose a threat to smaller pets and people and should be trapped and removed to a less populated area.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 10:18 am:

Gwenyth,

I believe you, and believe homeopathic remedies are widely used and accepted in other countries. Fret not, USA will catch up to these contraversarial treatments. I hope.

Vicki,

I am just catching up reading this, and I was so glad to hear he was up to date on his rabies and other shots.

I wonder if you called the DNR, and between you and your vet, gave a description of the bite/claw marks, you'd get a better idea of what bit Perry? I'd want to know what animal to be on the look out for!

Might be too late for tracks, but maybe not, the animal(S) are still around most likely.

A motion sensor camera would also be a good investment to protect your horses and dogs from now on. My husband sets one up for deer hunting, and it's always a surprise to see what he captures on pictures besides deer.

Motion sensor lights would be another thing to consider.

Right now, though, of course you are pouring your energies into caring for Perry, and I wish you the best outcome for his recovery. Perhaps just spending time grooming or massaging him as you wait to see what the Banamine and other meds are doing...sometimes it seems there is a very low point in the recovery process before the upward swing starts in. I find just being with an ill/wounded horse helps both of us.

Hugs and prayers to both of you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 1:41 pm:

While it is true that millions believe in homeopathy Gwenyth, millions use to believe that "bleeding" and many other destructive practices were successful treatments. Science now spares us this destructive practise, at least homeopathic preparations are not harmful, except to the pocket book and perhaps those patients where rational therapy is delayed while waiting for the magic water to work its magic. I don't know anywhere in the world Angie that science based medicine excepts the premises of homeopathic preparations.
DrO
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 2:52 pm:

Diane, there are indeed a smattering of panthers, or cougars, around Florida and have been sighted in Georgia and Alabama. The Florida Panther is considered endangered and is slightly smaller than the ones found out west and around the mountains, and it is believed that there are less than 300 left in the wild. Their populations are growing in almost every area except Florida and Alabama. The last proven sighting in Alabama was in 1997 when one was struck and killed by a car. More useless knowledge, I guess, but I still think if it had indeed been a panther, there would have been significantly more damage done. Bobcats thrive in every state east of the Mississippi River and some in the western states.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 2:56 pm:

Is God science based? Some say proof God exists is all around us; others don't believe because they don't see "God's work."

Those healed by "other" methods don't really care if Science accepts it works or not.

I am really not being argumentive, I am smiling and I know there is a place and time for everything. We know DrO, yours is the Scientific mind, and please don't ever change...we need your way, but I for one would never discredit other methods that can't be "scientifically proven."

If we ever meet and discuss any of this face to face, it would be lively debate no doubt!

Have a good day.

Vicki,

How is Perry doing? I see he's an Arab in your profile...tough but sensitive horses. I hope you have some good news for us later today.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 6:28 pm:

" I don't know anywhere in the world Angie that science based medicine excepts the premises of homeopathic preparations. "

Dr.O, I suspect you meant "accepts" as in includes instead of "excepts" as in excludes.

As far as folks "believing" in homeopathic, well, that's fine by me, I just consider it natural selection at work
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 10:34 pm:

It has been a rather rough day with Perry again showing signs of colic within half the time that one would expect following a dose of Banamine.

Thanks for sending me to the excellent colitis article, Diane. My Vet says he does have some colitis caused probably by the aggressive antibiotic therapy but it could also be a factor that he has not been eating or drinking much while getting Bute (which has now switched to Banamine).

The wound has responded well. Due to the location of the heat and swelling, my Vet was very worried about what internal parts of the tendon (especially the branching sheaths) may have been affected by the bite, which is a very nasty wound.

He came out tonight and gave one more shot of the Gentimicin, one other antibiotic, which I've forgotten the name of (Tribisen, or something like that, I think), a shot of Banamine and he tubed him and put in some water and oil.

When he did a rectal exam he found that there is loose manure in Perry, it just hasn't been exiting.

Perry tore out his IV catheter rolling today.

The injured bite site is doing well enough that we are going to try go with topical treatment now.

Thanks for sending your healing thoughts.

Thanks for taking the time to send the homeopathic information, Gwenyth. I do believe that homeopathics that can help to boost the immune system.

There is a very fine Veterinarian, trained in conventional medicine, who heads up the holistic medicine portion of the University of Florida and they have a lot of good help and advice to give. He is an expert with traditional Chinese acupuncture and I have used his services for acupuncture in the past.

Holly, there are a number of horses in my surrounding rural community and I am not too far from a river where there is a rather significant wildlife corridor where animals come off the river and through my lands. Over the years and in recent months I have heard of some livestock being bothered by unknown wildlife within a few miles of my farm. The nature of my property is such that a lot of animals seem to travel through my land due to the woods and trees and wetlands, and many live and reproduce either on my property or on immediately adjacent lands, including the coyotes and bobcats. This winter there have been reports of black bears and panther including someone shooting at and hitting a panther (fish and wildlife advised her to get a lawyer) that she saw in her barn. Fish and game have reportedly been tracking one (possibly with a bullet injury) in our area.

Holly, thanks also for sharing the information about the gas colics experiences, and you nailed the description of what I've been going through today. There were a few times that I have thought this sweet horse was dying.

My other (paint)horse's injuries are doing well and are much improved with being cleansed and doctored. He is my old guy, but did not get any severe after-effects. He is so cute. Though he fights and plays hard with the bay Arab, every time I have walked the Arab any distance away from the barn with the colic, my paint horse has called for his friend the entire time even though there is another horse right there nearby so he is not being left alone. He truly misses his playmate.

When I received Perry (charity auction), his registered name was EA (for Empress Arabians/Pennsylvania) Perrier, so Perry was a naturally appropriate barn name.

Perry was bred and born to excel as a halter horse but he didn't get a beautiful hind quarter. He is a Polish Arab and has a lovely head and neck (reminiscent of Bask, from whose lines he descends), a good, strong short back plus a lovely, smooth and athletic way of going. His mane and tail are of human hair quality. Although very smart, he is one of those horses who can manage to find all kinds of trouble and he has given me plenty of that. But he is so sweet and loving that one puts the troubles aside. He is a truly affectionate horse.

Thanks for the suggestions about the lights, Fran and Jesse. My horses have too much pasture to possibly cover with lights but I should put some sensor lights up around the barn area.

Fran and Angie, I wish that I could know what critter bit my boys. The tooth marks are about an inch apart, or a little more. Thanks for your good wishes and suggestions, and I do appreciate the information that Jesse shared about Panthers in nearby states. We have known for a long time that they are further north than fish and wildlife officials acknowledge, for which I guess they have their reasons. Now they acknowledge some males further north than south Florida, but many of us know that they have not only lived but reproduced in the area.

We cannot let endangered species deter development, however, and perhaps that is one reason they are not acknowledged, until they are hit by cars as has happened in some very "unlikely" locations. Also, perhaps acknowledging larger numbers existing might reduce the budget for these lovely, big cats?

Thanks again, Dr. O, for the great articles and advice.

If I have forgotten to answer any inquiries I apologize, but I am kind of over tired from this around-the-clock care plus trying to keep up with other concerns as well.

I am not allowed to give Perry any more
Banamine tonight and if he gets in trouble I am supposed to keep calling my Vet until I wake him up.

In the morning I am to give a dose of Banamine. He is allowed no hay tonight or tomorrow morning and just a small bit of his pellets in the morning. I am to monitor his condition and call my Vet.

Thanks again to all of you. This exchange is very helpful when one is struggling with trying to fix a hurting horse.

If I sleep tonight it will be in my trailer that is parked near the barn and paddock where I can watch Perry closely.

Now I am off to check on him, so wish you a good night and good health.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 5:33 am:

Vicki, my old mare had a bout of colitis many years ago. I have a long post in here about it somewhere.

Dr.O. suggested I.V. fluids, according to her blood test she was slightly dehydrated (Which my vet at the time didn't catch). The vet gave her some with electrolytes and she felt so much better. The only time she would eat was directly after a banamine shot, she didn't drink much at all, but stood over her water. She didn't look dehydrated per standard skin pinch test.

The IV fluids were the turning point to her recovery.

How were Perrys Vitals? My mares heart rate ran high with the colitis.

Hope you and Perry had a non-eventful night.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 9:39 am:

Vicki,

Yours was the first discussion I checked this morning. I hope you slept well, and the roller coaster ride with Perry is leveling out. He sounds awesome! Love the Bask lines myself, would love to see a picture of him sometime after he's back to his usual self.

I have a panther story to share: When we moved here 21 years ago, we were out riding and I thought I saw a panther moving across the opening in the woods that we were headed towards. Being new to woods, and the U.P., I figured I'd really get ribbed for saying anything.

Found out later that people had caught the panther on video! DNR always denied it of course, and over the years others have reported sightings and tracks of a panther/mountain lion. I always think of that when our horses are nervous for no apparent reason. I am not worried about the bears, bobcats, or wolves, but those big cats scare me!

And wolverines...they can be nasty too.

Take Care!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 10:37 am:

Vicki, I don't see some of the important symptoms and diagnostic criterion for colitis: fever not attributable to the wound, endotoxemia, wbc shifts, and diarrhea. Certainly the history of aggressive antibiotic use is consistent but I would have expected a major break of diarrhea by now. It does not rule it out but makes me wonder.

Note that holistic medicine by definition is good medicine but some have co-opted the term to mean alternative medicine. It is important to understand what one means when you say "holistic". You can find more on the scientific evidence of acupuncture at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Treatment Methods » Acupuncture.

Angie God gave us a mind and a logical world to work it in, at least on the macro scale. Using your mind in a logical way is what we call "science" and part of God's plan for us. Science is not some high falutin concept only for the scientist, it is what we use everyday to make our lives work so we may go on living. Though said in jest, Chris also knows there is truth in what he says above.

Thanks for the correction Chris I have edited it above.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 3:06 pm:

I just had Perry outside hand-grazing for two hours on what little bit of green stuff there is that is poking up from amongst the dead, frozen grass. A little bit of rain that we had this morning made it grow a tiny bit more.

Last night Perry mostly stood quietly in the same spot out in the paddock that is attached to my sick stall, which conveniently I could see from the bed of my horse trailer when I looked out of the window.

Very small amounts of mostly loose manure were DrOpped in three different areas over the course of the night but did not quite add up to what would usually be one normal pile. The consistency was not what is normal for him, but it looked better than it did yesterday and the night before.

He drank hardly anything overnight but my Veterinarian had put, I think, 3 gallons into his stomach via tubing last evening.

I was happy to witness Perry urinating once this morning and also observed a new wet spot in his stall, so that was a big relief.

This morning before the Banamine that I administered kicked in Perry did not have an appetite for anything but his pelleted, small ration approved by my vet.

His attitude has brightened considerably since, and that is encouraging. Eating at the bits of grass seemed to stimulate his appetite otherwise as well, but he is only allowed a very small amount of hay this afternoon. It remains to be seen what will happen without any Banamine.

When I was hand-walking him he DrOpped some manure once and the pile was getting closer to normal size and consistency so I am guardedly optimistic.

I am not supposed to give Perry any more Banamine unless he gets into pain again and I am to talk again with my Vet later on today.

Thanks for the information about the IV fluids, Diane. An electrolyte imbalance certainly could explain some of Perry's behaviour and he too has not had an appetite prior to the Banamine kicking in except for his pellets or treats. And Perry's heart rate has been a little high, and that was confirmed by my Vet. So if things don't come right I will definitely ask about IV fluids and electrolytes.

Seeing how Perry was acting yesterday I had thought that perhaps blood work was indicated to check for possible imbalances.

My Vet felt he was okay by examining his skin and gums (a "little tacky")so I hope that he was right.

Dr. O, thank you for pointing out some important things. I had examined the chart in your article on colitis and the answers were kind of all over the place with regard to level of severity.

The way that my Vet described Perry's situation is that he has a "little colitis" caused by what the antibiotics did to his digestion, and "colic."

Thanks for sharing the Panther/Mountain Lion story, Angie. I loved hearing that!

If I can ever learn how to do computers and photos I will post some of my boys. Maybe a friend can help me with this sometime.

Thanks again to you all.

I will post again as this saga unfolds.

I sure could use a nap.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 5:16 pm:

Sounds better Vicki. He does sound very similar to Flash when she had her colitis. She had diarrhea tho and it was pretty watery for a few days...tho she didn't go alot. She would eat grain (tho I didn't give her but a handful of that) carrots, apples. Didn't want grass or grass hay. She never acted "colicy" so to speak. Just stood around quietly, and swished in the water, but never drank. Vet called her " a bit tacky" also. The blood tests are what revealed her problem.

Hope you got a nap in...I did !

How come Perry can't have hay?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 10:04 pm:

Diane, Perry did the water swishing also for up to a solid hour at a time, and also the funny thing where they stretch their neck out and curl their nose up in that funny motion thing. He did that for an hour straight in the corner of the barn yesterday. My Vet said that it was an indication of pain in this case. Perry also did the tail pumping and for the first time that I can recall, teeth grinding. Then there was the endless pawing and digging combined with lying down, getting up, rolling, biting at and looking at his sides. He would also lie down and act like he was dead and he simply had no fight in him. This was the biggest thing that concerned my Vet, who knows Perry's normal ways.

Perry was mostly off of his hay for three straight days and today his interest in it has waxed and waned. He hasn't taken much of it in overall.

Between 4:00 and 6:30 he did pass a couple of more piles of manure, softer than normal, but I was happy to see them.

At times he has been brighter today but still must say he is not consistently himself.

After the Banamine wore off tonight I observed that he was grinding his teeth again. The amount of gut sounds also increased greatly with the Banamine out of his system.

It was too dark to check the entire paddock for new manure piles when I was last up there, so I need to bring a flashlight along on my next check. My Vet said though, that I should not necessarily expect normal output since Perry's intake has been below normal. He didn't observe too much in his system when the examinations were done.

The weather changed today and temperatures plummeted and the wind chill factor was significant. It is one of those days that none of the horses drink as much water as they otherwise would and I know that Perry took in less than two gallons today and that does concern me.

This is the kind of day and night (and the next couple of days are due to be the same) when I truly worry about colic showing up.

I think that my Veterinarian wanted to go easy on the amount that Perry would eat since his system has been so messed up.

His thinking seemed to be that we need to clear Perry's system out before loading it up too much.

This is pretty common Veterinary advice here when one is dealing with colic. Perhaps this thinking is encouraged by greater use of coastal hay in our area.

Actually though, Perry seems to be self-restricting as far as the hay is concerned.

I have been leaving more lights on outside, on and around the barn these last few nights, and wonder if that helps discourage the wild animals even if they are not attached to motion detectors? It always makes me a bit uneasy when I have a horse confined separately that they will be more susceptible to predator attacks.

I like to respect and conserve dark night skies out in our rural areas, but if safety for my animals will be enhanced by more lighting, I am all for that.

Here's hoping that there is sleep in my future tonight!

No nap happened -- just too much to catch up with on account of all of this intensive horse care.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 5:58 am:

He does sound like Flash was...that water swishing was weird, the tail pumping ect. She came out of it fine, but it did take some intensive care. Hope Perry has the same outcome, and you get some sleep!

Dr.O. is colic and colitis the same thing? Are they treated differently? I know my mare was allowed hay/grass...IF she wanted it when she had colitis.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 7:13 am:

Vicki,

Sorry to hear Perry is not back to being 100% healthy yet.

I was wondering, are you offering him a bucket of warm water? Maybe if you just had a bit of salt in your hand, and let him lick that off, then offered the water, he'd drink a little bit more? I've been known to really worry when a horse seems to not drink much; worse than not eating much.

I think his eating will improve slowly as his pain decreases. He sounds like me when I have pain anywhere, it turns into heartburn for me because I worry about it!

I bet if you get some much needed sleep, and feel less stressed (Ya, I know..easier said than done) he'll be doing better too. Some horses just stress more than others, the bite hurt, we don't know the extent of the fight with what bite him, he stressed over that, his body went into overdrive to heal the wound, stomach upset, leading to mild colic, etc...I am hopeful things are on the upward swing now.

Just my ramblins; I've had Arabs that were easy patients, and still have one that is like Perry. Very sensitive to everything, only she gets ornery when something hurts!

DrO,

Well, after reading about
"Science not some high falutin concept" I am keep cracking up over the use of the word "falutin" and can't think past that!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 7:33 am:

Diane, the articles on colic and colitis do a much better job of defining what they mean than I could do in several hours here.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 12:28 pm:

I am very pleased to report that Perry is doing much better.

In fact he gave me an enthusiastic greeting when I arrived at the barn this morning, complete with a beautiful and graceful Arabian neck twist maneuver that Arabian lovers are likely familiar with.

His appetite for hay has increased.

The manure output the past 16 hours has gradually become more normal. The color and consistency is not yet quite back to what is normal for him (it is darker in color and less formed, but not diarrhea).

He is presently turned out in the pasture with my other boys where he is happily picking at whatever new, short, green grass blades that he can find.

I will continue to monitor him but feel it is now safe to do so in that environment, which makes him and I both much happier.

I too am still worried about the water intake but noticed the amount that my others have been consuming with the colder temperatures is also much less, hence I am somewhat concerned for all of them, though more for Perry after what he has been going through.

If I have any lingering doubts this evening I will put him back into the paddock and sick stall area where I can monitor him more effectively at night than out in the pasture.

Angie, you are describing this horse quite well in that he is indeed a more sensitive one to either pain, stress or discomfort of any kind.

If he is hurting somewhere it seems that he is more apt to colic.

I have tried warming water for my boys when it is excessively cold and they did not care for it. In fact, I've had them break the ice to get at their water when they have wanted it but I think part of that for them is the fun of something different than what they are used to.

I keep free-choice loose salt in my stalls and also a vitamin-mineral salt mix, and Perry usually eats his fair share of both. When he was not feeling well though, I do think that he ignored the salt.

He was acting so dull and uncaring with the colitis, and he didn't act that way with prior colic episodes, which is why my Veterinarian and I were both so worried as we know his personality well. When he barely acknowledges a needle or just lies on the floor not caring what you do to him, it is easy to know he feels really bad.

Perry's fetlock area is doing just great now.

After talking with my Vet the other day and having it clear up as it has, I believe that this cellulitis was localized and that the bite wound did not penetrate into the joint capsule or tendon sheath, which was what my Vet was really worried about since the complete area of the tendon had been severely swollen at the onset.

Diane, I think that my Vet was advising limiting the hay and feed intake as the treatment for the colic and that Perry first was having "a little" colitis" that progressed to colic in addition.

When I have a bit more free time I will reread the articles about both conditions.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 1:23 pm:

Great news Vicki!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 3:22 pm:

Thanks, Chris.

He is continuing to do well today.

With the Banamine out of his system, however, there has been a slight increase in the swelling on the sides of the leg above the fetlock. I cleaned, medicated and did some hyDrOtherapy this afternoon.

It is probably not a big deal since he is not lame, reluctant to stand on that foot, nor in terrible pain when the leg is touched as he was before.

Just something else to keep on top of and watch for any signs of worsening.

My Vet would have liked to administer the antibiotics for longer but did not want to take the risk of worsening the colitis.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 5:05 pm:

Vicki That is Great news! I'm glad Perry is on the mend..good job!!! Get some rest now
Member:
frances

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 3, 2009 - 12:02 pm:

Yippee! Really happy to hear Perry's so much better.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 3, 2009 - 12:28 pm:

YES!! Good to hear the cheery update...now "horse mom" get some rest yourself.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 9, 2009 - 1:42 pm:

An interesting aside to this story is that Perry seems to have benefited in an additional way from the antibiotic regimen.

For over a year he has had sticky drainage from his eyes, including having a clogged tear duct that had to be cleared.

My Veterinarian when asked about the on-going eye situation, had told me that it was a fly or other allergy.

No matter what I did though, his eyes have had some degree of sticky drainage, which served to attract even more flies.

Even using a fly mask did not allow the condition to clear up, though there was some improvement.

Perry now no longer has a sticky discharge that has to be cleaned off of his face.

If there is drainage due to wind or elements, it is clear and not sticky.

I am presuming this means that there was some kind of an infection that has cleared up?

It seemed to me during the period of the eye problem, that when he had his head to the ground eating that there was some degree of rattling sound accompanying his eating/breathing. At times I have also thought that his glands have been swollen and also the area under his mouth.

Do you think that he had a sinus or gutteral pouch infection?

There was no nasal discharge.

Both horses' external injuries are continuing to heal without further difficulty, although Buddy did get a small amount of proud flesh at the site of the deepest, longest facial wound.

Although I still believe a Panther attack/encounter to be unlikely, I have now heard that there is a pair of them in the vicinity.

We have also seen evidence of bear on our property and have heard reports of bear bothering calves not too far away.

I have never believed that black bear would bother livestock?
Member:
stevens

Posted on Monday, Mar 9, 2009 - 1:49 pm:

More good news about Perry. After reading about all the lions, tigers and bears (oh my) in your vicinity, it makes me glad to be in the LA concrete jungle!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 9, 2009 - 4:57 pm:

Your comment made me laugh, Chris, as it does bring visions to one's mind!

Would you believe that even out here in the country, dogs in packs are the biggest threat, followed by humans, with regard to attacks to our horses or other livestock.

My daughter and I heard Panthers one night many years ago when we were outside in the dark watching stars, and the sound was absolutely, indescribably terrifying -- alien-sounding.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 9, 2009 - 7:29 pm:

I don't know Vicki since it is unclear as to why the eye was discharging it it hard to say why it is now improved. If the discharge was purulent (pussy) clearing up of some low grade infection is possible though sinus or guttural pouch problems usually have other symptoms. If the discharge was mucousy infection seems less likely.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 9, 2009 - 8:35 pm:

Dr. O, Thank you for your comments.

The discharge was extremely sticky and rather thick (not particularly mucousy) and cleaning it off of Perry's face took a lot of effort. When hydrated, the discharge took on a white color and required multiple attempts to completely clean it up.

This horse has shown a general lack of energy for quite a period of time, walking up to the barn, rather than coming at a faster pace.

I think that his general demeanor has been "off" for quite a while and is now improved.

I had thought that perhaps he was having hind end problems due to previous injuries, but perhaps that is not the case.

Whatever has caused the improvement is perhaps still lacking in terms of a total "cure," but his eyes now continue to be very good with no signs whatsoever of the persistent sticky discharge that would harden below his eyes constantly.

At times in the past year or so, I had thought that perhaps I should have taken this horse to an eye specialist, but the problem was something manageable that persisted but did not escalate given ongoing attention and care.

Friends checking on Perry over the past year or so described him as seeming somewhat "off" or "depressed" at times.

He was very depressed when recently undergoing the problems previously described and is much better now, though I believe he needs some further monitoring to ensure that he is indeed "well."
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Mar 9, 2009 - 9:15 pm:

Hi vicki, I had the same thing happen with a cat. His eyes always would run, pretty much since we owned him. Had him to the vets numerous times and nothing we did would clear it up. Then last year he got plugged and had to spend a few days at the vets. He was on some pretty heavy duty antibiotics because of complications. When he came home he had clear eyes and they have remained that way since!

Hank has an eye like Perry, we have done the clean the tear ducts, DrOps, nothing seems to work. His eye always has sticky dried discharge under it, hard to scrub off. He's had this for 2 years now. Thanks for the observation, I wonder if some kind of antibiotic would clear Hanks up, might talk to my vet about it next round of vaccinations.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009 - 7:24 am:

To be clear Vicky, mucous can be quite thick and sticky and usually a grey to green color...you can think of examples without getting to graphic here. Puss tends to be yellow and varies from watery to quite thick though there are exceptions.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009 - 3:51 pm:

Very interesting, Diane. Thanks for sharing that story about the cat.

Hank's condition certainly sounds like Perry's. In fact, I think it is close to two years since Perry began having this strange discharge.

I will be having a conversation with my Vet too, when our vaccinations come due, or possibly sooner, to make sure Perry is well with regard to any possible lingering of infection.

Given this experience I would in the future push harder for a resolution, because although Perry has a history of eye-sensitivity and infections, this constant discharge was something kind of strange.

There are plenty of flies and pollen out there now, but no sticky discharge so it is hard to believe that it could have been due to an allergy before. Also, I would have expected an improvement during some times of the year, which really never happened.

Thanks, Dr. O. This discharge did not have a color to it after it ran down his face -- kind of clear and hard, like varnish, but it would turn whitish when moistened to remove it.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 5:29 pm:

To update about Perry, it was very difficult to get one of the puncture wounds to heal, as it was apparently very deep.

For a few days I finally used Granulex once daily to help get rid of the deleterious tissue and this resulted in some bleeding at the site.

Once daily I also cleaned with Betadine (Povidone) and applied Triple antibiotic ointment followed by a layer of Desitin type of product.

The red puncture mark seems to finally be disappearing but there is a round, white scar remaining.

With regard to the eye drainage, Perry has had some increase during the high pollen season (and the face flies from off the cattle are horrid) but this condition is still much improved.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 9:08 pm:

That's good to hear Vicki, other than the "wound" is he back to normal?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 6:20 pm:

Perry seems to be doing well overall, Diane.

I think that he did have some level of eye infection before the antibiotic treatments due to pesky flies and the fact that he likes to roll and grind sand into his eyes.

This time I am not going to let this go if his eyes get as bad again as they were before, which became a chronic situation.

Each time my Vet came out I would ask him about it, but perhaps I should have taken him to an eye specialist for horses, which we do have in this area.

He has had to have a plugged tear duct opened in the past and tends toward eye infections generally speaking.
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