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Discussion on EPM/EPMS gelding questions
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 1:34 pm:
I have been so busy with Smokey's wound, that I just finally sat down to transfer my new gelding into my name.
I realized that one of his owners from before, lived 30 miles away. So took the chance and gave them a call. Good thing I did.
We have owned Rocky now for about 2 months. When we first got him, I felt he needed about 150 lb's on him. The owner told me that he was under weight when she had gotten him. But they only kept him for a few months. They decided to go a different direction. She had been feeding him alfalfa twice daily. I thought it was a little hot for a none working horse. Figured that he was having trouble keeping weight on for that reason.
Once home, I found him to be a easy keeper. I feed a nice meadow grass that is lower in sugar due to my ponies. In the winter, they get grain.
Rocky seemed to do well. Putting on weight, but ribs still showing. Then we started noticeing that he would grind his teeth. I thought maybe he was getting upset about being in the dry lot. I opened up the entire area to him and Smoke. Seemed to take the edge off, and no more grinding.
Well after talking with the original owner from birth, I have more history. Rocky is 15 yrs old BS paint. At about the age of 13, he suddenly started DrOpping weight and laying down a lot. The owner had a vet check him and and said he had EPSM. The owners put him on a high fat low carb diet and lots of exercise. Which helped a lot, but with two other horses and full time jobs, they felt he would do better being ridden all the time. From that sale he has been in 2 other homes that I know of. I am the 3rd.
I have ridden him a couple of times, and felt like he stumbled a couple of times. But seemed to do ok.
I have read all the threads, the changes of diets and also the article that DR O has written.
I plan on changing his diet per the grains. I was wondering what you all have came to prefer now? I did check into the Buckeye products but no one in Oregon sells it.
We are almost nil on selenium in our ground. We did have a feed store that carried a great mineral mix, but they have gone out of business.
So what brand of grain would you suggest? Also, a good mineral mix with E in it.
Do you think the grind has anything to do with the EPSM. I feel from reading I can control this. Is there a avg age for on set with this? My only other concern, is everyone else talked about weight gain, where my guy lost.
Thanks so much
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Member:
suenzoo
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 2:14 pm:
Tami
I have a TB Mare that was sold through the Hermiston, WA auction that was diagnosed with this problem last April. I contacted one of the only Board Certified Equine Nutritionists in the USA and she sent me a specific diet after she reviewed all of our mare's bloodwork and consulted with my equine vet. If you are interested in the diet I feed, please let me know. She has had NO more episodes and is sound and sane :-)
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 2:40 pm:
Please do send it to me. rtgribling@bendcable.com
Thank you so very much
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Member:
csantucc
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 8:47 pm:
Sue, would you mind sharing your info with me as well? My daughter has a 10 year old BS paint mare that she has owned since birth who was diagnosed with EPSM at about age 2. They are both out of state now so I don't have a daily report on her feed and condition, but I'd be interested to see what your nutritionist recommended for your mare. Thanks.
psantucci@cox.net
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 9:35 pm:
I talked to Julie the former owner today. I got more information about my new baby. The vets ran every test under the sun Julie said. The only thing they could find wrong, was that he had a vitamin E deficiency. So they treated it as if EPSM. With oil and Vitamin E added to the diet. Julie is going to send me pictures.
The sad thing is, when they gave him to this family, it was with the understanding that this extremely well trained loving horse would get ridden by the daughter daily. Part of the treatment was exercise that they did not have the time to do. They agreed and were given all his tack etc. They were to return him if for any reason it didn't work out.
Well not only did they not return him, they turned around and sold him with out his tack. On top of all that, they never told the folks we got him from the problem.
I guess this was a little over a year ago. Now I would say if you looked at him, you would see a lot of Thoroughbred in him. Very straight back...etc. But according to Julie, he was built like a brick house until about 2 yrs ago. Huge butt, barrel chest.
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/P1010244.jpg[/IMG]
Julie is going to send pictures of him 2 yrs ago. I will share them. I am very interested to see the change.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 8:39 am:
Sue, rather than having folks email you why don't you post it here for all to view and comment? We do recommend exercising caution with your email as putting it out in such postings can result is a significant increase in spam. It is why the default email setting of your profile is to not show it.
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 2:25 pm:
https://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/
Pictures of Joe a little over a yr ago
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 10:10 am:
Dr O
With what I wrote on Rocky my gelding with a possible case of EPSM, would feeding beet pulp be a good direction?
He is always hungry. Here is my thought. I have them already on a low sugar hay. But if I was to mix a low carb grain with the beet...then add my Vit E and oil by maybe wheat-germ oil or something along those lines?
I have not gotten the diet the one lady said she would send. I did try to go in and remove my email address from the thread. But there must be a time period for editing a thread?
Tami
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 7:19 am:
Tami, there is no such thing as a low carb grain. All grains are primarily starch with a bit of protein and fiber. Perhaps you mean "concentrate" when you write grain?
In any case your easiest plan is to use a balanced commercial low carb product in combination with a low NSC forage. Then you can be sure your horse is getting a balanced diet. Your best plan would be to follow the recommendations on long term management of EPSM as described in the article.
As to using beet pulp it is low in NSC's so makes a suitable foodstuff but must be balanced, for more on this see the article on beet pulp in the nutrition section.
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 4:40 pm:
I have started the gelding on LMF Stage 1. To which I have added Cool Calories. I am adding 1/4 cup corn oil to the grain mix. Then they have a mineral free choice. I plan on playing around a little on the mixture down the road once I get some weight on him and also see more muscle tone.
I wanted to share this list that came from the first owners. They have been wonderful. I offered to let them have him back since what their goal had been to allow him to go to a home and be ridden and cared for, never came about due to a lying horse trader that never intended to care for him.
Between all the great information that I received from Sue here on this thread and Dr Valentine, I know it can help Rocky to become healthy again.
This is from Dr Beth Valentine in Washing.
EPSM (PSSM, EPSSM) DIETS
Designed by Dr. Beth Valentine with assistance from Drs. Harold (Skip) Hintz, Bob Van Saun, Don Kapper, and Kent Thompson
Goals: To provide no more than 15% total daily calories from starch and sugar, and at least 20-25% of total daily calories from fat
Forage:
Either grass or legume hay (such as alfalfa) can be fed. Alfalfa hay does not have a high enough starch content to be a concern.
Grain hays such as oat hay and barley hay with remaining seed heads should be avoided.
The amount of forage is not critical - it can be varied depending on whether the horse needs to gain or lose weight. Just do not feed less than 1% of the horse’s body weight in forage per day.
Lush spring pasture will be higher in starch and sugar than summer grass, and the amount of dietary fat may need to be increased during this time.
Vitamins and minerals:
Vitamin E: At least 1 IU vitamin E per lb of horse per day is important for all horses, especially those not on alfalfa products or green grass for much of the year. You cannot hurt a horse with extra vitamin E.
Selenium: About 1-2 mg selenium per 1000 lbs of horse per day is essential in areas that are selenium deficient. Selenium can be toxic at high levels, though, so be aware of all sources of selenium in your horse’s diet, and ask your veterinarian to have blood tested for selenium levels if there is any question of selenium deficiency or excess.
“Broad spectrum” vitamins and minerals: Horses on fat supplemented diets often will not be eating the manufacturers recommended amounts of fortified commercial concentrated feeds per day. If forage quality is good, most vitamins and minerals will be adequately supplied by forage. For horses on lesser quality forage, hard working horses, breeding horses, and growing horses, addition of a daily vitamin and mineral supplement is important.
Other supplements: Hoof supplements, joint supplements, etc. are not a problem when feeding EPSM horses.
Fat: EPSM horses need at least 1 lb of fat per 1000 lbs of horse per day.
Start with small amounts, such as 1/4 cup oil per feeding, and increase by about 1/4 cup every few days. Use the general rule that two cups of oil = 1 pint = l lb.
Treats for EPSM horses: Most EPSM horses are fine with carrots and apples in moderation. Avoid treats with grain or sugar. My horses like Kellogg’s Cracklin Oat Bran, which has about 20% calories from fat.
Specific Diets for EPSM Horses
* At the time of this writing there is no feed high enough in fat to provide the proper calorie ratios to EPSM horses without an additional fat source
In general, aim to feed no more than 5-6 lbs of any feed other than a pure forage based feed per 1000 lbs of horse per day.
Feed the minimum amount of feed in the bucket that gets the horse to eat the maximum amount of daily fat while maintaining good weight.
If it takes a small amount of something “sweet” (molasses, carrots and apples, apple juice, peppermint flavoring, a handful of oats or sweet feed, etc.) to get your horse to eat the right amount of added oil early on, this is not a problem. You can aim to decrease or eliminate this small amount of starch and sugar later.
Examples of very low starch and sugar feeds:
Alfalfa pellets
Other hay pellets
Alfalfa cubes - soak in water when adding oil
Beet pulp, low molasses content - soak in water
Complete feeds - meant to replace hay if needed
Dengie or chaff products
Chopped hay products
Examples of low starch and sugar feeds*:
*In general, feeds higher in protein and fat will be lower in starch and sugar. Ingredients such as soy hulls, beet pulp, bran, wheat brans, and wheat middlings are relatively low in starch and sugar.
Below are examples of low starch and sugar feeds, there are many others. If in doubt, contact the company and ask about starch and sugar content. Look for feeds no more than 33% starch and sugar.
If you can see grains in the product it is likely too high in starch and sugar for an EPSM horse.
Purina Strategy
Nutrena Compete
Nutrena Safe Choice
Blue Seal Hunter, Demand, Vintage Gold
Senior feeds
LMF Stage 1
LMF Complete
Equi-Pro Carb-Safe
Platform horse feeds
Triple Crown Senior, Complete, Growth
Triple Crown Lite
Triple Crown Low Starch
Examples of higher fat feeds:
These are examples of feeds that allow addition of less added fat. Most companies suggest using these only as an addition to other feed. For EPSM horses, feed these alone along with good quality forage or a daily vitamin and mineral supplement:
Kent Feeds Omegatin (20% fat)
Nutrena Empower (22% fat)
Moorglo (15% fat)
Rice bran, powdered (20% fat)
Buckeye Ultimate Finish (25% fat)
Nutrena Farr XTN (12% fat)
Re-Leve (about 10% fat)
Purina Ultium (12% fat)
Purina Amplify (30% fat supplement)
Calculate amounts of fat fed from these products by multiplying lbs fed per day by the percentage of fat. For example, 3 lbs of Ultimate Finish is 3 x 0.25 = 0.75 lb of fat.
Feeds with 20% or more fat can be supplemented with rice bran (20% fat) to provide additional fat. All other feeds require addition of a 100% fat source.
100% fat supplements:
Any salad type vegetable oil, such as soy, canola, corn, safflower, cottonseed, etc. Cocosoya and wheat germ oil are also fine, just more expensive.
Cool Calories dry fat product, by Milk Specialties - 800-323-5424 ext.1156, ask for Catherine Gerardi.
Cool Calories dry fat product, by Performance Horse Nutrition, Weiser, ID 208-549-2323.
Ultimate Finish 100, Buckeye Feeds
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 4, 2009 - 8:00 am:
Thanks for the posting Tami, I do warn caution about specific product recommendations since formulations change: be sure to check those labels.
Also I would note that me and Dr Valentine have had a long running argument over the necessity of supplementing fats in the easy keeping EPSM horse. But otherwise the recommendations follow those we give in the article under the Long Term Management for EPSM or PSSM subtopic in the article.
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 4, 2009 - 11:51 am:
I hope it was ok to post the diet info on here DR O, I should have asked first.
One question that I do have. Is on Vit E. When all the test was done on Rocky/Joe they didn't have a firm diagnoses of EPSM. But symptoms did match many of the same Joe had. He was one big boy in 2007, by 2008 he had lost a considerable amount of weight. When looking at him now, you see what looks like a short thoroughbred.
The one thing he was very low on was the Vit E. Do you see that has consitatent with EPSM horses? He is always standing with one back foot resting. When I put him on a lounge line the other day, always seemed to loose step in same area.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 4, 2009 - 9:13 pm:
Tami, we encourage such postings it allows for a discussion of diverse ideas. Concerning the vitamin E, what was measured, what were the results, and what are the labs normals?
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 3:04 pm:
I am sorry to start a new thread on this matter. But I can't seem to find where I posted before regarding my gelding.
I received copies of the blood work that he had done 1/08.
Little history, I got him a month or so ago. Called his original owners and found out he had been giving to some people in 8/08 with the promise of riding him more etc. Since that time, I believe I am his 4th owner 
Been in non-stop contact with the original owners to be told he had EPMS. I have been trying to read everything I can get my hands on.
From help here, I have completely turned his diet around. He is on a complete grain, cool calories and E and Selenium.
Today I was lucky enough to speak with the vet that did the blood work on him. She didn't give me a lot of hope.
1-08 he had a weak positive for EMP by serum.
EHV-1 serology titer 16
WNV 1 gm elisa NEG
On other BW the only things off I am seeing is
ALT vet 46 range 5-25 IU/L
AST vet 1225 range 170-350
CK vet 804 range 60-300
The vet said that she had him on 10,000UI of E and suggested that I purchase it. Which I have now ordered.
From what I am seeing on here. He should have been put on a RX
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 9:08 pm:
Tami I presume you are talking about treating for EPM? It is not clear the horse was effected by EPM and the decision to treat based on the clinical signs and how the veterinarian interprets "weak positive". On the other hand if you are going to treat based on the results of the test why run it?
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Friday, Mar 20, 2009 - 11:29 am:
Yes I am talking EPM. The test that came out with a weak positive was ran in a lab. That is the conclusion they came up with.
I guess I am lost about what you are saying. "On the other hand if you are going to treat based on the results of the test why run it?"
How else would I treat him? I am trying to the best I can here. But I gave you the blood work results that were off, and thought maybe you could give me some helpful advice. But for some reason, I don't seem to get a much as everyone else.
This gelding has major weight loss, muscle loss. Laying down a lot. So a lot of the signs of a horse with EPM from reading all the threads on here.
Too me if a test comes out with a chance, of something, can't hurt to treat with a natural product such as food. I was wanting info, if a weak positive wouldn't it be a good idea to try the RX's that you have listed here!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 20, 2009 - 8:06 pm:
Tami first I would note you did not ask any questions to address. Second your post was not clear about which of the blood abnormalities (there were several) you were expressing a lack of treatment about. It is hard to comment when you do not know what your concern is which is why I asked you.
The question about the EPM test was somewhat rhetorical and really meant for the person who ran the test originally: why did they run it if they were not going to treat if positive? As to you treating this horse for EPM there may be a good reason not to. After this much time usually the prognosis for improvement has become guarded to poor. However it may prevent further worsening of ataxia.
While EPM may cause focal asymmetrical muscle loss, general weight loss would not be do to EPM and EPM horses do not usually act like they are feeling bad by laying around. What does your veterinarian say about this? Concerning how to go about assessing weight loss see
Tami I would love to help you but I have to know what the question is.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 6:55 am:
I think some of the misunderstanding is due to an omitted "not" in DrO's March 19th post. IMO it should read: "...if you are NOT going to treat based on the results of the test why run it?"
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 8:16 am:
Thanks LL, I read it twice and missed the omission and it would have been clearer.
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 12:42 pm:
I am not sure how I didn't ask any questions. I gave you blood work results. "From what I am seeing on here. He should have been put on a RX"
I thought maybe with the BW results that if would give you a little to go on.
My thought was a second opinion, or insight from others dealing with this condition.
He has some symptoms or EPM and EMPS. Lost of muscle tone and weight lost. The last owner talked about him laying down all the time. Since I have owned him, that has not been the case. I have never noticed him tying up, but he is ALWAYS resting a hind foot.
Yes I was very confused and upset. I am trying hard to help this boy. I have had some wonderful advice from others. But hoped maybe with the few pieces of BW I gave you, it might click something off in your brain.
I am going to attach two pictures of him. The one with the man is the original owner, on his last ride with him 8-08. Now if you noticed they had became concerned 1-08. They had done everything the doctor said about the food changes.
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/Aug2008.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/DSCF1031.jpg[/IMG]
Now here he is when I purchased him 1-09
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/P1010198.jpg[/IMG]
Check out the muscle lost in 5 months
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/P1010250.jpg[/IMG]
This one is late feb, I feel I put some weight on him. But not enough.
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/P1010244.jpg[/IMG]
I guess I don't know what to ask out right. I realize you can't say oh yea that is the problem. But hoped with the info and BW you could maybe say, yes I think you are heading the right direction, or if I was treating the horse and it came back a weak positive I would have treated with a antibiotic.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 5:22 pm:
Tami those are statements not questions and since it was not clear as to what you thought needed treatment I asked.
Generalized weight loss is one of the most general nonspecific symptoms a horse can have but it does not suggest EPM. The place for you to start on diagnosing weight loss is to understand the possible and most likely causes so I recommend you start here Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss.
DrO
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 11:28 am:
Hi Tami,
I think I missed your previous thread. What is the breeding on your horse, how old is he, and what is is exercise schedule etc.? Is he fed alone or with other horses, and where is he in the pecking order?
From your pictures, it does look like he's lost muscle. He doesn't look skinny so much as he looks like a somewhat narrow horse (especially through the barrel) who has DrOpped his topline shoulder and hind end muscling. I'm not a vet, but I certainly have owned horses that need regular hard work to maintain muscle, especially my TBs and TB crosses. You can't feed muscle onto a horse, in my experience. They either carry it naturally, or work it on.
I realize that your vet seems to think there's a disease process here, and I can't guess from the photos. I will say that I have owned horses who would look very like this, if they were out of work for an extended period, and the only thing that corrected it was reasonable nutrition and physical conditioning.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 4:32 pm:
Hi Tami after reading your 1st post are you sure it isn't ESPM the owners said he had??? From your description of him ESPM fits also. I have read quite a bit about ESPM and I believe the horse can have a high CK I'm not sure tho.
They suggest high levels of vit.E and fat for that too.
Dr.O. has a good article in here about it and there is a website about it also...scroll down to the bottom of the page
https://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/index.htm
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 12:29 pm:
Thanks for replying ELK and Diane. I will try and answer both replies here
Rocky is APHA and is 15 yrs old. I honestly don't know anything from time he was given away 8-08 until about 11-08. Then he might have been ridden 2 times very lightly. They felt he was very sluggish.
I got Rocky in late 1-09. I feed him all his grain mixture alone in a stall. Then he comes out to eat with the rest of the crew. They all have their own piles of hay.
I have several photo's from the original owners. None show him thin, in fact most show a really nice rounded horse. Julie said that he was always on the move. Would not stop on cattle drives until the days end.
We have been on him a couple of times. But I take him out everyday for about 1/2 to 1 mile walk. I feel guilty riding him with his weight down like it was. I will be posting pictures at the end of this. You know how if you see something everyday, you miss the little changes? Well that did happen. I was impressed with the changes in weight and muscle tone.
Rocky was tested for EPM or ESPM that is where I am confused to be truthful. I was told ESPM when I talked to the owners. But then when the vet faxed over BW he tested positive for EPM.
That is the main reason I gave all the levels on here. Thinking maybe that would help.
I did go out to see the vet that did the original testing on him. Of course the last time she saw Rocky was 1-08. She said at that time he was very under weight. I sent her all the pictures over the weekend including the new ones. I picked up E5000 to start in his diet. She always has made up a mineral mixture based on our area.
One thing that I did try to explain to her, was that he was ALWAYS resting one back forward. Probably one more than the other. She said that is normal. I have never seen one do it this much. If he is stopped, it goes into the resting.
I felt when I have ridden him, that he is he stumbles a little. It is just a little noticeable. My husband rode him the other day and said the same thing. So he asked the vet, and she told him that he could be to risky for me to ride. That she could see him going down with me. I don't think it is to that place, but now husband is telling me no riding. I have Lupus, and it has destroyed a lot. My back and neck are fused.
One other thing I was thinking. When I first got him, he would grind his teeth. It would drive me crazy. Now he doesn't. So I am thinking this is a good thing. 
Oh Diane...where is the 1st post? I tried to find it, but had no luck. I wanted to put all this information there...but when I couldn't find it, decided to start a new one.
Ok, here are the newest pictures that I am so excited to see.
This was Feb 09
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/P1010250.jpg[/IMG]
This was 3/21/09
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/P1010265.jpg[/IMG]
Feb 09
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/P1010248.jpg[/IMG]
3-21
[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Tamara1960/Joe%20Rocky/P1010264-1.jpg[/IMG]
See the difference??? 
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Member:
drtrish
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 12:56 pm:
Tami,
Was the EPM test done through just blood work, or did they pull spinal fluid and test that? I've heard the bloodwork test is not nearly as accurate as the spinal tap.
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 1:12 pm:
Trish, I am not sure. I have written to the owners and the vet to find out.
I do want to say, that I see more of the symptoms for EPMS after reading the site that Diane sent to me. Also, considering the improvement in the physical condition, it would be more likely.
Do you agree?
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 3:04 pm:
Just got this note from the previous owner.
*Last winter I noticed that Rocky seemed thinner. He'd always been such a pudge. At that time, Steve was doing the feeding and I mentioned it to him that Rocky seemed to be losing weight. Steve said that he was eating well and not off his feed. After that I noticed he was laying down a lot more than usual. One cold morning when I went out to check on him, while he was lying down I could see his muscles quiver and that he had begun shifting weight on his hind legs. I think this was in January, but could have been a little earlier. I blanketed him, called Steve and we loaded him in the trailer and took him to Jennifer. He stayed there a couple of days, while she did the tests. I think all of them were blood tests. We started his new diet as soon as he got home and he steadily progressed so by August he was his gorgeous self. He did not seem to have any discomfort and did well on the few rides we took him on. We wanted to be sure that he was strong when we gave him to the little girl During this time we kept experimenting with food and Dr. Valentine , from OSU contacted Steve with more information. We remember that date clearly because it was on Valentines Day. We took that as a good sign.
I think we estimated that he had DrOpped weight of about 70 -90 lbs which through his therapy he gained back.
All in all I think this came on fairly quickly, with a very gradual weight loss, that was clearly evident by January. His winter coat masked some of the weight loss that would have been clearer in the summer. He still was always alert, had a good appetite and would race around the pasture if we took the other horses out riding. He was never lame or unwilling to move. He didn't appear to be in any real pain, but for the need to shift his weight on his back legs. I would never want him to suffer with great pain (and not enjoy doing the things horses do) and I discussed this with Jennifer at length as we worked out his treatment.
Hope this helps.
Julie*
I felt when I got Joe he could use another 150 lb's or so. His ribs were really showing.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 6:26 pm:
Tami here is your last thread
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5348.html
A lot of horses will test a low positive for EPM, it means they have been exposed/or vaccinated for it, but doesn't necessarily mean they have it.
Is it possible your horse just needs more groceries through the winter? Even my easy keepers need way more hay when the weather is bitter, especially if it isn't the greatest hay, even if it is decent hay I still got to up their rations quite a bit. Come spring when the weather warms up a bit they start putting on weight quickly.
A couple things come to mind, have you had his back feet checked? he may be sore in the heel, have thrush ect.
I have an arab gelding that is ALWAYS resting his back left leg, he will weight shift a bit in back too....Turned out his FRONT hooves were bothering him, since getting that straightened out he still rests his left rear a lot...he just likes too
 His weight shifting did quit for the most part tho.
Is your horse lame?
If not he might just be one of those that takes more feed than normal when the weather is cold, there's plenty of them around! I didn't go back and read your other thread, but if I recall he looks better in the spring /summer mos. and worse in the winter??? You may just need to feed him more, free choice perhaps and add a little fat.
Just a few thoughts
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Member:
drtrish
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 6:50 pm:
Tami,
My gelding had similar symptoms. I went through the whole EPM treatment, cervical xrays, and you name it - I had it done. Then in January I came across an article in the QHJ about PSSM (aka EPMS) which sounded a lot like my horse. I had the hair sample test performed and before the results came back I had put him on the low starch high fat diet since I was convinced that is what he had. The test came back negative, but I had noticed improvement in his physical condition so I kept him on the diet. It's been 2 1/2 months since he's been on the diet and I see a 50% improvement in symptoms. Perhaps your horse is just sugar sensitive? It might be worth it to wait and see what happens with the diet after a few months if you don't think his condition is urgent. Good luck!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 7:30 am:
Everyone, I have moved and ordered by date all the original postings so everyone can read the earlier information here.
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 1:04 am:
I wanted to share with you how well my boy is doing now. This picture was taking less than a month after I rescued him. I really didn't know what the problem was yet.
EPMS
We have been treating since about mid march for EPMS as that is what the original owner was told he probably had. I changed his diet completely around, with E5000, corn oil and senior feed. I am so happy with how he looks and feels, that I wanted to share!
He is solid muscle. I have rode him several times and just love him to death!
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 1:10 am:
2/23/09 1st pictures
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 1:13 am:
2/23/09
now 5/09
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 9:39 am:
Nice! Great to see and hear that he's doing so well with his new care. I hope you guys have a really fun summer.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 10:28 am:
Wow - such a change for the better! Lucky guy.
Lilo
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 12:48 am:
Hooray! Nice to see your sweet boy is doing so well. Happy trails!
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 9:08 pm:
Hi Everyone. I need help.
Ok, Rocky as you can see has really gained the weight back that he had lost. He is in my opinion BEAUTIFUL now.
I tried to ride him a few weeks ago, and I still felt that stumble I told you about. I decided to make a appt with a shoer that is highly recommended.
He was out on Saturday. The nice thing is he knew my horse. He was really surprised to see how much he was dragging his back feet.
We got talking about Rocky. He wanted to know if I knew he had been diagnosed with EPMS. I explained the whole story about me getting him and not knowing anything other than he was major under weight and I had been told he was VERY lazy.
I explained that after talking with the vet that had seen him and given him this diagnoses I started him on E5000 2 ounces a day, 2 cups corn oil and 3-4 lb's of senior feed. That since doing that I had seen a major turn around in his appearance and also in his attitude. Running and bucking.
When he started on his feet, he turned and said "are you riding this horse?" I explained that I had a couple of times, but things just didn't feel right. He told me I was crazy to be on him. That he was totally unstable and that he could go down on me at anytime. Of course husband heard that. My neck and back are fused from my Lupus. I thought ok, these two have been talking.
But when he started working on his back feet, I saw it. Rocky could not stand. He almost went over 4-5 times while he was getting trimmed. He was trying so hard to be a good boy. I could see it was not from being a brat. During the trim, I saw that he was almost biting his tongue. Then by the end he was shaking.
When we let him go, instead of his normal running out to the girls in the back pasture...he walked.
I have read everything I can find I swear on EPMS, I read about tying up. I don't see that. One article talks about the dragging feet, the next one won't. One thing from this thread, DR O you said their should not be a major weight lost, yet this vet said yes there is.
His BW showed a weak positive for EMP, but was not tested for EPMS. So I am not sure how the EPMS was even diagnosed.
This article which is fairly new gave me hope a few weeks ago when I read it. I honestly thought when I had him looking so good, it was a good sign and things had improved. https://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM.html That there was a 75% chance. But now I am being told, no way. He is done. That he is too much of a risk to ride and I should either turn him out as a pasture pet or put him down.
Is their ANY hope? Any other idea's of what we could be looking at? Or are all the signs EPMS????
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 10:26 pm:
Hi Tami,
Sounds like it's time for a good physical exam from a vet. Instability standing for the farrier certainly means there is a problem, but that problem could be many things, some of which are manageable.
Unfortunately, the history that came with your horse is incomplete and somewhat garbled, so there's really no way to know whether he was properly diagnosed in the past, or if the symptoms you are seeing are old or new. I would start with a physical exam and lameness eval. with some bloodwork, and follow the vet's recommendations from there, if it were me.
I've never seen EPMS or your horse, but I have seen horses get labeled with some sort of diagnosis when the real problem (and possible treatments) have been overlooked. So I'd start fresh with him, not even suggesting EPMS, and let a new vet evaluate his symptoms and do a real diagnostic workup.
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 12:00 pm:
Took Rocky and Smokey into the vet yesterday. These is the vet that original treated Rocky. She suggested I put him down.
I don't know what to do. At the time she checked him out, he had been tied to the trailer for almost 2 hours, so of course he was not in the best of condition at that time. But they did show me what the concern was in the walking and stumbling.
So I am thinking I am going to keep treating him as I was, since that seems to have got him into beautiful shape. But I will watch him also. When I see that he is in pain, I will put him down.
This is has been the worse spring in the world. First Smokey and the nasty wound. Then I lose my mare and foal, and now this. I adore Rocky. He is such a personality plus boy.
Please keep us both in your prayers. The day it happens I am going to be a major mess.
Tami
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 3:07 pm:
Tami - I am so sorry you are having to go through this with Rocky. I went through 2 and 1/2 years trying to find out why my filly was stumbling on her hind feet. I kept being told she was fine and that I just needed to ride her butt off. She stumbled so hard she actually developed wind puffs on both back legs. Finally I sent her to WSU in Pullman, WA - She was diagnosed as a wobbler and at my insistence was given a spinal tap for EPM - which was positive. By this time she was barely able to walk forward and could not back up. During the 2 and 1/2 years I was trying to find out what was wrong with her - at a cost of over 7,000$ -I was told by one vet on three occasions that I should put her down. If you have access to a University Clinic I strongly urge you to have them do an evaluation. I think it's possible that Fox might have mild wobbler problems. I'm also sure she had EPM as most of her stumbling problems cleared up with the proper treatment. She's still alive - no thanks to the first vets who never bothered to do a real exam. What ever you decide to do - just know that there are a bunch of us pulling for both you and Rocky.
Cheryl K
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Member:
annes
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 3:35 pm:
Tami, I am so sorry to hear of what you and Rocky are going through. I currently have a 26 yr old TB who was diagnosed with EPM 9 years ago. He came very close to having to be put down but he just didn't give up, we took it day by day and he slowly started making progress with the EPM treatment. Also, his vet would not give up on him and I credit much of the recovery to him as well. Do not lose hope if you think Rocky is up to the fight. Did I understand they have not tested for EPM? The treatment saved my horse - he recovered 100% and I still ride him. Take care and I will keep you and Rocky in my thoughts and prayers.
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 4:05 pm:
Rocky tested a weak positive for EMP. But was diagnosed with EPMS, due to several symptoms. From what I have read, they are two completely different synDrOmes. EPMS is more like MS in horses. Rocky while at the vets, couldn't seem to think where his back legs should go when turning. Stepping over each other, tripping up.
To be honest, I can only trust what the vet is saying. I have tried to get information all over. I get different opinions on how to treat etc.
Dr O said major weight lost was not a normal symptom, but this vet feels it is. I posted all the blood work that was taken, but no one commented on the fact that yes it looked like it or no there were no signs.
So I am a lost. I am treating him with diet, but apparently that is not enough. I don't know what else to do. I love this guy so much, and to think of how short his life will be is sad. I would have thought he had lots of time left to ride with me.
I found out at the same visit that Smokey that I was told is about 20 is closer to 30. Seems you can't trust anyone.
Tami
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 4:27 pm:
Tami
You are definately in my prayers.
Hang tough girl.
L
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 6:24 pm:
Tami, I still get a little confused with your posts are you saying your vet thinks he has EPM OR ESPM.?
I would be real tempted at this point to load him up with banamine or bute for a few days to see if he improves any, could tell you a lot. It could be arthritis, my old mare with arthritis in her hocks/stifle will stumble, shuffle her feet a bit ect sometimes. She can't pick up her back feet for the farrier, so she don't get her back feet done..it works. She is happy and healthy otherwise.
I had a post in here a few years ago how I thought maybe she had epsm and started the oil ect. she did seem better, but it could have been my wishful thinking too. She got too fat so had to quit giving her fat supps.
I don't believe bute or banamine will help a horse who has EPM or EPSM, you could be dealing with a different entity altogether since Rocky hasn't been FORMALLY diagnosed with anything through testing...just a thought and a cheap experiment.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 6:36 pm:
Hi Tami,
It sounds like a discouraging situation, though I too am confused about the diagnosis, and also about the euthanasia recommendation.
Many neurologic horses can be retired comfortably for years, if you want to keep him as a paddock ornament. I guess I can't see from this thread that he's a danger to anyone but himself right now, and you haven't mentioned a history of falls, or an inability to get up, or really anything that would prevent him from being a happy horse.
It does sound as though he isn't safe to ride, however.
Did you ask your vet why she recommended euthanasia vs. retirement? What was her diagnosis?
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 8:10 pm:
I am totally confused. I was told EPMS by the original owners and the vet. When Dr O asked about lab work, I got it and it is posted up above.
When the diagnoses was made 1-08, it was from the lab work shown above. I saw where the EPM came back a weak positive. So I questioned that. But never got a answer from here to understand that either.
Now all the pictures show what terrible condition I got him in when he came to me 1-09. I had no idea the problem until about Feb. I put him on E5000 10,000IU a day, 2 cups of corn oil mixed with senior feed. Major improved happened. He started lifting his head better, he gained much needed weight, and just seemed all around a different horse.
I started noticing that he was dragging his feet from the wear of them. So That is when I had him trimmed just a week or so ago.
I don't understand the putting him down. I don't mind him as a pasture pet at all.
The vet who is the top equine specialist in our area is the one that treated him in 08 and now said that she would put him down. I think they view it as a cost that doesn't need to be. I view things differently.
What I have asked all along, but can't seem to get answered...maybe I am asking wrong. But with the symptoms and lab results, is there anything else that you would consider looking at for a problem?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 13, 2009 - 9:58 am:
Tami have you ever tried a course of anti-inflammatories? I suppose there are many things that could cause his problems from sore feet, arthritis, neurological, cushings ect. Somehow you have to do rule outs...believe me I understand your frustration!
Hank was trippy in the back, "falling in holes" ect I had even asked the vet if he sounded like an epm or epsm horse. Once when he watched him move and felt his tight muscles he thought epsm was possible, we were going to test for it, but in the mean time I had front shoes put on him and the symptoms disaapeared...his sore front hooves were making his back end act up....just an example of how many things can mimic Rocky's symptoms. As stated above my mare has similar symptoms from arthritis so until you really know what you are dealing with (I know you are trying!) you won't know how to treat.
You can test for epsm with a muscle biopsy and maybe you would have your ans. to that. I don't think it is real expensive and you wouldn't have to wonder about that anymore.
Do you think your farrier does a good job with his hooves? Does he have long toes that could be contributing to his tripping and toe dragging?
Just a few thoughts
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Member:
kathleen
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 9:39 pm:
Tami,
I just read this post, have not been following HA much lately. It sounds to me like Rocky has not been tested for over a year, when his original owner's vet did blood tests. And unless I missed something, blood tests were all that were done. Elk mentioned that you might want to, in effect, get a second opinion. When you recently took him to the vet, it was the same one who did the blood tests over a year ago, and she recommended you put him down. This is not making sense to me. My first thought was that this vet, while she may be the best vet in the world, was basing her opinion on information over a year old. What I expect from my vet is for him to do a thorough examination, ask pertinent questions, listen to what I have to say, then give me his opinion plus options as to how to proceed. If I had a horse with the history you have given, and with the uncertainty about what is really going on with him, I would definitely seek a second opinion, one who can start from square one - preferably a vet college (most states have one I think). If that is not possible, then I would look for a large vet practice where there would be more vets and hopefully more input if there is any question about what is wrong with Rocky. This is just my opinion and what I would do if he were my horse. I really hope you can find someone who can help you with Rocky, and I would not lose any time looking.
Good luck and sending positive thoughts your way
Kathleen
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 9:37 am:
Hello Tami,
The number one cause for stumbling is overly long feet and the number one fix for all causes is to shorten the foot as much as is practical and then square the toe. So that should be considered first.
As to the difficulty standing on one leg while shod behind, this would be consistent with EPSM but also pain in the leg from any cause. As for the proper treatment it is discussed at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM but the diet you ouline above should be very good and largely agrees with our own recommendations except if the horse is overweight.
Considering the evaluation of a weak postitive on a EPM test this is best evaluated in light of the exam findings and so should be made by the veterinarian doing the test, for more see Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » EPM, Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis.
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 5:33 pm:
Dr O
Rocky's back feet are very short. Plus with the drag, he has them lined. The back barely needed trimmed at all.
I did contact the site https://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/Advances_in_PSSM.html To see if this is something I could have done and get some answers.
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 6:00 pm:
Ok, I went back and read the EMP threads. It sounds to me more like what he has. Considering all the riding that he was exposed to in the mountains etc.
Is Bute considered a anti-inflammatory? I do have a bunch of it.
One thing that I have noticed is his tail shaking. It will stick out a little bit and at the top be shaking-twitching.
But the symptoms for EMP, muscle waste...that is him. Of course the diet helped a lot. But he was so under weight.
Is there any natural products that I could use on him that is like Sulfa and Pyrimethamine?
DR O would it be to late to try this products on him. Since the lab work was 1-08, we are looking at 18 months.
I have noticed that the tight turning and the standing for so long at vet, along with the 45 minute trailer ride both ways to the vet has had a toll on him. He has been pretty quiet since.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 7:48 am:
Tami, I remain uncertain by what you mean by EMP. Which disease are you referencing, could you spell it out for me?
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 11:41 am:
Sorry EPM
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 5:22 pm:
Got it. In general it is felt the longer standing the lesions the less chance there is at improvement but the "Prognosis" subtopic in the article on "EPM" gives some very specific information on prognosis.
DrO
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 4:54 pm:
Hi Tami,
I'm curious about Rocky's bloodlines. Do you have his papers and, if so, can you post his dam & sire bloodlines?
...sharon
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 12:39 pm:
Since the vet wouldn't really explain to me where the diagnoses came from. I decided to do something on my own.
I had another vet I use draw blood. I sent it off to https://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/equineneuromuscular/home.html to have him tested. All in all it will cost me about $100 to know yes I am dealing with this, or no I am not.
I am praying for an answer that will help me to make the decision. Rocky is doing great. Out playing in the fields and showing us all that he thinks my new mare is very cute!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 10:04 pm:
Tami, what are you having him tested for?
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 12:20 am:
Hi Dr O
I am having the PSSM test ran. From what I have read, PSSM is the same thing as EPMS.
I felt it was the best place to start. Because even with the first vet getting a weak positive for EPM, as you can see above from the blood work she ran. She is telling me that he has EPMS. I have no idea how you can get a weak positive on EPM, yet say he has EPMS.
I do know that the diet has helped 100% at least in the physical condition of the horse. I am scared to death to ride him, because she said at anytime he could loose his back footing and go over with me. I have a fused neck and back. Of course that would probably be the end of me and the horse. This was after having him trailer to her office about 60 minutes away. Then standing tied for almost 2 hours while they worked on Smokey, she showed me that he didn't know where to put his back feet, when being turned in a tight circle.
I really hope you understand what I am trying to explain. I honestly don't know what to do if this comes back negative. He for sure stumbles once in a while, and also wears the front of his back feet off. He shifts resting back feet all the time when standing in one place and eating. So those are all symptoms of the EMP. The major weight lost with out lots of fat and Vit E in his diet isn't
As you know, I am getting pushed to put him down. that he is probably in pain. I don't see it now. When I first got him he would grind his teeth, till I thought I would go crazy, but he doesn't even do that any more.
Once I get the test back, I will post it on here. Maybe you can give me some idea's of what else to test for.
Here is what I feel like. Say I take my child into the doctor with his finger cut, the doctor looks at it, and tells me that she thinks he has a broken leg instead. Completely different results than what the bloody finger showed.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 7:20 am:
Tami your propensity to acronym with initials that really don't match up with the commonly used initials for diseases still confuse me. But since there is no blood test that diagnoses equine protozoal myelitis (EPM) or Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (EPSM) or Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM), I am uncertain what you are looking for. However elevated muscles enzymes will increase the suspicion for EPSM or PSSM. The article explains how these diseases are diagnosed.
Tami if there are professionals telling you the horse is dangerous to ride and particularly if you are somewhat fragile to coming off I would be very careful. However if they are telling you should put this horse down when pasture sound is within your goals, you can ignore them as long as falling on you while hand walking is an acceptable risk.
DrO
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 11:28 am:
Hi Tami,
I am confused as well. Maybe you could write out the actual names of conditions so that we could follow your line of thinking? Your bloodwork confuses me, since it doesn't diagnose or rule-out any of the likely causes for your horse's problems.
I re-read the thread, and I guess I would summarize as follows: you have a horse that came to you in poor condition with a poorly-articulated diagnosis of a neurologic condition. You've dramatically improved his body condition with a a high fat diet, but the horse continues to evaluate as neurologic, not only after a long haul, but also at home when the farrier tries to trim his hind feet.
I suppose there are several rule-outs as to the cause of his condition. I'm not aware of a blood test for any of them. He could be chronic for Equine Protozoal Myelitis (though your ability to improve his condition would lower this on my list); he could have Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy, though his instability for the farrier would also, for me, place this down the list. Not mentioned so far is the possibility that he's a Wobbler, whether through trauma/degeneration or a congenital cause.
The diagnostics for these conditions include muscle biopsies, spinal taps, and myelograms, but not bloodwork. They are expensive, and only one of these conditions, Equine Protozoal Myelitis, could be treated with any hope (and not a huge one) of making the horse riding sound. Well, I guess I'm ruling out Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy in that statement, since he's persistently neurologic on the recommended diet, even for getting his feet trimmed. So you have already seen whatever improvement you can for that condition, I think. I'm not a vet.
I don't mean to be harsh-- I've just been through this process with my own young FEI prospect, and made the difficult choice to stop spending money to name something I could not treat. Neurologic horses are not safe to ride. Even a mildly neurologic horse can fall under saddle (mine did, with fewer symptoms than yours).
So I'd encourage you to write out your options without acronyms, read the excellent articles on how the various conditions are diagnosed/treated, and evaluate your goals for the horse and financial resources.....
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 12:08 pm:
Sorry, here is what I am having him tested for. * Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy Type 1 (PSSM–GYS1 Mutation)
* Malignant Hyperthermia (MH)
And yes there is a blood test from Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory
University of Minnesota
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 12:33 pm:
Hi Tami,
If you read the FAQ on the U of M website, the test you are doing is for Type 1 PSSM, which will tell you only if your horse has genetic markers that might pre-dispose him to the condition. Under the circumstances (a neurologic gelding with no breeding options), I *believe* you are probably more interested in the test for type 2 PSSM, the muscle biopsy, which tells you whether he actually has the disease. Here is the text from their webpage:
9. How is a diagnosis of PSSM established?
Currently, PSSM type 1 can be diagnosed with a genetic test, however, at present PSSM type 2 must be diagnosed with a muscle biopsy. Which test is most appropriate depends on the breed of your horse. Click here for an Adobe Acrobat document "Decision tree for genetic testing versus muscle biopsy".
Genetic Testing
Submission information for genetic testing for PSSM type 1 is available from the Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory (800) 605-8787.
We strongly recommend your veterinarian be involved in genetic testing. We cannot make anything more than general recommendations about the disease as we have not evaluated your horse to know if there are any concurrent problems that would make our diet or exercise recommendations contraindicated.
Seerecent advances for more information about the genetic test.
***Dr. Mickelson, Valberg and McCue are holder of the patent for PSSM genetic testing and a portion of the profits from the genetic test directed to their research and patent royalties.
Muscle Biopsy
Veterinarians can obtain instructions on how to perform a muscle biopsy here, or by calling 1-800-605-8787. The sample must be specially prepared and shipped overnight to our laboratory. Results are usually available within 10 days.
The sample is taken from the semimembranosus muscle, which is part of the rear limb hamstring muscles. Sections of muscle are evaluated with a number of special stains. The periodic acid Schiff's (PAS) stain is used to look at the amount of sugar stored as glycogen in the muscle. With PSSM, the intensity of this stain is very dark indicating a large amount of glycogen is present in the horse's muscle. Measurements of glycogen are usually 1.5 to 4 X higher than normal horses. A large amount of glycogen, however, is not uncommon in trained horses, and not a basis for diagnosing PSSM. In addition to storing excessive normal glycogen, horses with PSSM have deep purple inclusions of an abnormal complex sugar stored in fibers. This is the classic diagnostic feature of PSSM muscle.
Biopsies are often graded as mild, moderate or severe based on the amount of abnormal polysaccharide. The abnormal polysaccharide always remains within the muscle tissues and does not decrease in amount over time.
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 1:09 pm:
I wrote to them and explained what was going on. Asked if they could tell me with a blood test. They said yes. I hope that I wasn't scammed. I had to pay for overnight shipping on top of the fee.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 2:51 pm:
Hi Tami,
I'm no expert on PSSM, so I don't know. I had thought that PSSM horses tied up, not that they became neurologic. The instability for the farrier, stumbling, and inability to navigate a neuro. exam at the vet sounds to me more like a neurologic horse than one who is tying up. But I can't see the horse, so I really can't say. And I have never had a horse diagnosed with PSSM of any type.
It's not my business, but no matter the results of this test, please don't ride this horse unless his neurologic symptoms can be resolved, for your safety and his. It's quite disturbing (and dangerous) when a horse DrOps underneath you! Just be careful, anyhow.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 7:13 pm:
Hi Tami, my old mare drags her back hooves and can't hold her rear legs up for the farrier either.
She has been like this for more years than I can count. She is not neurological, and we rode her when she was like his HOWEVER I know she isn't neurological. The vet said it was arthritis in her hip and hocks. Is it possible he could have arthritis???? Have you checked any avenues of diagnostics other than neurological??
I don't think you should ride him either until you KNOW his problem, but maybe some blocks might help you along some. I may be way off base, but just because someone said he is neurological, doesn't mean he is. What exactly is his problem other than toe dragging(which is quite common in many afflictions) and not being able to hold up his hind legs for the farrier???
Please note again I am NOT encouraging you to ride him. Just to maybe take the diagnostics in another direction
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 9:10 pm:
I got it, you are having the DNA tested for the –GYS1 Mutation. This is one form of PSSM and we have more information about this at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM see the Genetic Testing subtopic.
DrO
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Jul 6, 2009 - 12:53 pm:
Rocky came back negative I do have a call into the vet hospital to find out if this means he is not a carrier but also, that he doesn't have it.
If he doesn't have it, I have NO idea what direction to turn for figuring out what the problem is.
I will let you know as soon as I hear. Then maybe with all of you, you can lead me in the next direction as horse lovers you would go.
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Monday, Jul 6, 2009 - 2:35 pm:
Ok, here is what I am getting. "If" I understand correctly, he doesn't have the gene, so he doesn't have the condition
Rocky's test results **Type 1 PSSM (GYS1): N/N**
**A recessive trait has carriers but not a dominant trait. Type 1 PSSM is a dominant trait. That means if a horse has one copy of the affected gene it can cause the disease. Thus a PN horses has the disease and a PP horse also has the disease and often more severely. A test result of NN indicates that both genes are normal for the GYS1 mutation that causes type 1 PSSM. ***
A recessive trait has carriers but not a dominant trait. Type 1 PSSM is a dominant trait. That means if a horse has one copy of the affected gene it can cause the disease. Thus a PN horses has the disease and a PP horse also has the disease and often more severely. A test result of NN indicates that both genes are normal for the GYS1 mutation that causes type 1 PSSM.
There are other causes of muscle diseases in horses and the genetic test performed covers one of these, type 1 PSSM. In some cases we need to do a muscle biopsy to look for other causes of muscle diseases.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Jul 6, 2009 - 4:24 pm:
Hi Tami,
Well, I'm sort of repeating myself, but PSSM seemed a bit of a stretch in the first place, since Rocky's symptoms are not classic for PSSM. You have not described a horse who ties up after exercise, but a horse that experienced people say is neurologic. As in, he does not have good awareness or control of his hind-end. The loss of control results in loss of muscle mass/atrophy, secondary to the primary problem (undiagnosed). People in wheelchairs lose their leg muscles, but not because they have a muscle disease.
There are several common causes for horses to become neurologic, which you can read about in various articles that DrO has posted here. They include EPM, EHV-1, the various causes of Wobbler's, etc.. But the thing is that most neurologic horses can never be made safe to ride, and the diagnostics are expensive. So the question is how many resources you want to put into naming something you quite possibly can't cure, or even improve. I don't know the answer. But your narrative here is clearly about a horse with neurologic symptoms rather than a horse who is tying up or has muscle disease, so it would have been a surprise to find PSSM, for me, anyhow.....
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Monday, Jul 6, 2009 - 4:36 pm:
Tami - I just went through the PSSM issue with my horse so I know that if the bloodwork is negative, PSSM is still a possibility. Only a percentage of the positive horses show upin bloodwork. The definitive remaining test is a muscle biopsy. So, if you think that PSSM or RER (recurrent exertional rhabdomyolysis) are still a possiblity, the muscle biopsy is the best way to diagnosis it. Sarah
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 11:45 am:
If it is EPM, which he had the weak positive test....and shows symptoms of it. Do you think it is way to late, we are going on 2 yrs in Jan, to try the antibiotics on him?
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 8:40 pm:
I think the only thing Elk, that made me even consider the PSSM, was the fact that the diet made such a huge improvement in body condition. Not only once, but twice.
The first time with the original owners, whom I know were caring for him with excellent feed and love. Now when I got him, who knows what he had been eating. But I do know that with as much food as I throw at him, he didn't gain a pound or look good until the high fat, high vit E diet. Which leads to the PSSM.
I only want the best for Rocky. I guess I want someone to say, hey try this...and off we go into the sun set. haha
It is hard to look at something with so much beauty, strength and life, and realize someday soon I will have to put him down.
Too think all this started so I could get a horse to ride. Now I have 3 pasture pets! I do love my new girl. She is a sweetheart, but so are my other babies
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 8:52 pm:
Hi Tami,
Well, my Wobbler has improved his condition on a high fat diet too, but he's still neurologic. Just neurologic with a shiny coat and a good body condition score! I know a horse who's chronic for EHV-1 and neurologic-- she likewise can gain weight etc., but that doesn't address her neurologic deficit.
So what test was performed for EPM? Did you perform a spinal tap/CSF test?
I completely understand your grief and frustration. I've felt it myself. Mostly I'm trying to help you parse your choices so that you don't waste a lot of money on very unlikely scenarios.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 7:25 am:
We discuss prognosis in the article Tami and there is little work with horses that have had symptoms for 2 years without treatment. I do think this lessens the prognosis somewhat but if it is EPM it may prevent worsening of symptoms in the future.
DrO
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 8:38 am:
Tami - Fox had neurologic symptoms for two years - without three Vets recognizing them as neurologic symptoms. When she was finally sent to WSU and was given a spinal tap it came back positive for EPM. By this time she was basically having difficulty walking. By the end of a month of treatment with Diclauzuril (sp) the majority of her symptoms were gone - and have stayed gone. She does still stumble on her hind feet - landing on the face of her hoof - not fun - but she is safe to ride. She has never fallen. If your horse has EPM - treatment should alleviate most of his symptoms. If you haven't had a spinal tap done you might want to consider that.
Cheryl K
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