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Discussion on Auto Immune reaction- Allergies
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New Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Friday, Mar 27, 2009 - 5:44 pm:
My horse is almost 4 years old. Born and raised in Kansas, brought to Washington State last April and I purchased him in September. In Nov he had a lump in the cinch area. In January the vet did a biopsy and without writing the whole result. The lab said he has:
Collagen granulomas. Most like from bug bites or parasites.
Last November I noticed less then 10 now he has 40 lumps and numerous small flat spots in the hair that you can peel off. The lumps do this. They start hard, like attached, and then come to the surface under the skin and you can roll them around, you can not pop them, I do think some are starting to break the surface and become scabs.
Locations a few in the side of the cinch area. A few in the folds of his from legs most are on the inside of his hind thighs, his sheath and long the center of his belly. I do think some are now going to ride in the larger muscle areas like the neck and haunches.
They cause no discomfort at this time. He does not itch. He does have some hair loss around his eyes and his coat texture is not smooth, he had been shaved I assume before I got him.
We have now removed items such as his vitamin/mineral supplements; he is now on Rice Bran, ground flax seed and a few oats along with the same hay a grass/alfalfa mix. We have removed his winter blanket.
I’m looking for a direction to go in, how far to look back, could it be his vaccinations, him new to Washington state, etc. Looking for cause and treatment!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 - 10:40 am:
Welcome Laurie,
Collagen granulomas are common in areas of pressure like under the saddle and girth. These granulomas are not commonly associated with allergic diseases but trauma or pressure. Collagen is a proteing and there are some other types of "protein" granulomas as is the case with amyloidosis.
So before we go on to cause and treatment we need a diagnosis and it remains uncertain at least from the information in your post. If you truly feel these are collagen granulomas or chronic reactions to fly bites they can be treated like the description for nodular necrobiosis at Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Bumps / Nodules / Warts / Tumors » Overview of Bumps, Nodules, Warts & Tumors.
I am thinking your more recent descriptions sound a bit more like dermatophilus, for more see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Rain Rot and Rain Scald: Dermatophilus.
Review these topics Laurie and if there is still confusion I would like to know exactly what the inital histopath report said, a bit better description of the current disease, and several good photos might help.
DrO
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New Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 - 10:21 am:
Doctor 0. I have attached the lab results. I have had 2 DVM's look at him and they have different opinions as to how to proceed. I will read the articles that you mentioned and wait for your reply to the results. Please let me know what type of photo's you would like me to send.
Happy Trails,
Laurie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 - 3:17 pm:
Laurie I cannot make out most of the text with the exception of the all cap DIAGNOSIS. This is not descriptive of collagen granulomas. Instead it says there are eosinophils and mononuclear white blood cells, a inflammatory reaction possibly allergic. The dystrophic calcification suggest it is a long standing reaction. Along with this he sees boils (furunculosis) and ulceration but I cannot tell if he thinks these are primary or secondary to the inflammatory reaction. I would love to be able to read the descriptions and comments as they may provide more clues.
This report sounds similar to what you describe above and not collagen granulomas. The images I am interested in are of the new lesions. Well lit and in focus are a must.
DrO
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New Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 - 11:31 pm:
Doctor O,
You give me hope. I have attached the results hand typed. I hope it helps. The two newer lumps are close to the removed lump so the hair is shaved. I feel there are some on his belly line that have broke the skin and scabbed or crusted. I could take the photo's of his inter hind legs and sheath. Nothing is open or oozing. This is what I feel. there will be a hard lump like attached to a bone or something, later it comes to just under the skins surface and is able to be rolled in your fingers, it is hard and you can not squeeze it to pop or make it go away, it does not cause discomfort. Most are the size of a small pea and some the size that was removed, from the surface it feels like a small olive.
When the hair was shaved originally it did look like there was a center hole or enlarged pour. it could not be picked open, etc.
The small flat tight to the skin spots that can be scraped with your fingernail off, it's still not easy they are all about the size of a small pea and are located on the larger areas neck, hips. there are not so many that it seems wierd, I thought they were just small nicks at first. There are not lumps where these are.
My regular Vet has not treated with anything. the 2nd vet I had look at Keeper wanted to have stains done and other lab tests, even by UCD or a lab that works more with this type of item. My regular vet would not release the sample for further testing. One vets wants to try antihistamine shots, one wants to try 30 days of predazone orally. The 2nd vet I allowed to give one steriod shot into one of the pea sized lumps in the same general area as the removed lump and in a few days it was smaller, it ended up about 1/2 the size in a week and has stayed at that size. I've been told I should not give the regular spring vaccinations: west nile, flu, but should do E/W tetanus.
Keeper had 5-way, West Nile, Flu April 08. I wormed him with Eqimax 10-08 which has ivermectin and Tape care plus a Pyrantel Pamoate Jan 09. I will take pictures tomorrow and send them along. I also had blood work done in Jan if you are interested in those results.
Also his previous owner had him on MANNAPRO Sho-Glo as a suppliment and rice bran. I had him on Megadose as a suppliment, rolled barley and oats.
I took him off all suppliments first of March and have him on only rice bran, ground flax seed and some rolled oats.
A question, By having the large one removed could it cause a lot more to develope? or was it going to happen anyway?
I can't thank you so much, I hope you or someone can help me go in the right direction to cure this. He is a beautiful, well bred QH who I love with all my heart and would hate to not be doing everything I can.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 30, 2009 - 7:20 am:
Laurie,
I see you live in Washington State. If I understand your post correctly you have some fresh lesions that have come up late this winter and yet don't have biting flies out yet. Is this true? Look forward to the images.
DrO
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New Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Monday, Mar 30, 2009 - 10:29 am:
You are correct. At our place we really don't get many flies, rarely a horse fly or deer fly is seen. In the spring we will get some nats and during the summer mosquitoes.
Please explain lesions: Are we talking about just the lumps that come to the surface and stay there, some get bigger some don't change in size, they don't open up or anything. The ones on his belly line I almost need to roll under him like on a car dolly so I can look straight up. I will try and shave that area to get a better look and picture.
You mentioned that it most likely is a long standing reaction? What length of time would you suspect?
What do you think after reading the whole report?
If it is a biting insect, I need to protect him, if it's an allergic reaction to a man-made product I could make him worse by using one. Even the blanketing. He's always worn one since we got him, now it's off, due to the possibility of the soap being the cause. We don't have a hotwash or washing place, we use a hose and this time of year that's hard on a horse. Another thing to mention, he has a really thin coat, even the place where he was shaved for the removal has not grown hair back, Where I put the vitamin E oil, seems to have more hair growing. He seems to be losing a little more hair around his eyes, I'll take a picture of that also.
I feel like you are giving me hope, where my vet is not seeming to take this serious.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 11:36 am:
Without examining the horse it is impossible to say what goes where Laurie. I cannot even be sure that all the lesions are caused by the same thing or that what you are seeing now is is fact the same as what occurred earlier. However if this is caused by biting insects, I cannot explain why this is happening just now. I would look elsewhere at least for this latest condition. I do think your veterinarians should consider a superficial bacterial (staph?) infection that now has a allergic component though as the pathologist notes fungal infection remains possible.
Between the seasonal hair coat changes the hair does not grow so it is normal for hair clipped at these time to not grow back until the next seasonal change. I suspect the hair loss around the eyes the first step in loosing the winter coat so a new coat should soon follow or maybe already starting.
DrO
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New Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 4:28 pm:
I shaved around a lump on his belly last night and will take photo's tonight. The vet is coming this Friday. What do you advise about his vaccinations this Friday. He would get: West Nile, E&W Tetanas, Flu. I do not give Rhino or Strangles. Would you give them or not?
The order of what I have seen is: Nov 08 the small lump in his girth area. In a month the lump was over twice the size and another one had started to appear same general area. So I started to feel him all over with my hands. He had a small one in his armpit loose skin it has stayed the same size since January. Another one came up in the girth area so 3 total there. There are multiple small ones like in his arm pit on the inside of his thighs, some on his sheath and up his belly line. I counted 40 lumps/bumps last weekend. he had less then 10 I could feel in January.
I will take pictures of his inner thigh, belly line and the shaved spot on his girth. Also his general condition and his face.
The flat ones on the surface of the skin that can be scraped off have no raised lump, they are flat, when you scrape them with your fingernail they come off like a piece of skin after you get sunburned and peel. They are on the big body parts, THey are not anywhere close to the lumps. It very well could be two issues or one that could have caused the other. The lump where we injected a steriod is 1/2 the size it was and has not changed in over 2 weeks. Be on the look out for the photo's.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 8:09 pm:
If there have been no reactions in the past I do not see a contraindication for vaccination but this is something your veterinarian and you must decide weighing the risk vs benefit.
Concerning the lumps you can scrape off did you review the Dermatophilus article? Are these dermatophilus scabs?
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 12:12 am:
This first pic is the original cinch area, on the left is the spot where the first one was removed he tore out his stitches and so there is scar tissue to the right is the newest one
This one is on his belly large pea size
these are on his inner thigh and are small pea size
his eye
Keeper, not the best pic of him but recent.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 10:43 am:
Laura note that my last post should have been: "..not a contraindication..".
In your images you have two different lesions.
The girth and belly lesions are either deep dermal or subcutaneous nodules. Unlike the earlier sampled area that was tested these are not ulcerated and I would not expect them to ulcerate unless traumatized.
The inguinal lesions are superficial nodules of the epidermis and may represent a mild but chronic superficial infection though I cannot rule out a unexplained inflammatory disease or neoplasia.
Based on appearance alone, both of these are common lesions in horses, have dozens of different causes, and not typically serious health issues as they are self limiting. There are exceptions but if the above pathology report applies to the girth and belly nodules I would say these are not serious disease and represent some sort of unexplained immune reaction. However the appearance of dozens over a short period would worry me however.
I would consider with your veterinarians that the superficial small nodules be treated with topical antimicrobial/steroidal cremes (Panalog or some generic) massaged into the lesions.
As to the deeper lesions, I do not see a indication for antihistamines as these are not the product of histamines. If you had hives or other signs of histamine release it would make more sense. I often successfully treat individual or multiple cutaneous nodules that I believe are an allergic response with intralesional repositol steroid (Depo-MeDrOl) injections. If the allergic nodules were rapidly arising in different areas, systemic steroid administration seems logical. This is where your veterinarians are and the choice depends on how you see the problem. Whether to treat the individual lesions or systemically is really one of practicality. The intralesional treatment is stronger but may not be as effective at preventing new lesions.
The fact that intralesional steroids did not make the other lesion completely disappear may not be because it did not effectively treat the reaction it but because you have some chronic pathology that is permanent or may require much longer to go away like the dystrophic calcification described in the report.
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 10:09 am:
The saga continues:
My vet came yesterday to re-check Keepers lesions and his knee, vaccines etc, Perfect day to show up. I see my horse just about everyday. He lives on our property. I had not seen him for two days straight due to family illness. I go to get him from his stall. And he has a sticky substance under his jowl. I feel it look at my fingers no blood. Look up at it which is just a little higher to the neck from the center of the right mandible towards the inside of the bone. I see an opening about the size of a dime, no blood. First thoughts an abscess burst.
This is what my vet said and did. First she went over him with her hands, feeling the lumps and the flat scabs. She went under his belly and at the junction when you look at the horse from the side where you see the hind leg join the stomach just inside there on both sides are lymph nodes they were at least the size of a large egg, each side. You had to reach up to feel them. Either I’d been missing them and did not know to look for this.
So she checks out the jaw. shaved it. The dime size open wound and two much smaller dark spots it is if look up between the two sides of the round part of the jaw, on the inside of the right side a swelling about the size of 1.5 inches and ¾ inch wide. Not huge. Left side is fine. She called it a draining tract on the mandible. She was able to stick a pair of scissors all the way to the finger holes up in it. Not very painful to my hard headed horse. No med’s needs to do anything. She said it is going into the bone, not along size it. She did a culture the q-tip on the long stick, went all the way to the end where she had to hold it. Again my horse hardly moved his head. I was not on the side she was on, so all I could see was this long squab disappearing into this hole. I have to wait 3-4 days for the culture. She flooded it with antibiotics and he is got an Antibiotic injection IM/SQ and is to take 15 tables 2x per day of SMZ DS bottle says: Sulfamethoazole and Trimethoprim tablets UPS 800MG/160MG.
7 days ago we moved him to a little larger area down by the boys. We do have hot wire and t-posts, which he did take the caps off of 3 4 days ago.
What is the length of time it would take to cause this? 4 weeks ago he had a situation with a Molasses jar, he bit the plastic top off and had pieces of that in his mouth, never any blood, ate and drank immediately after. I hosed his mouth full force for 3 minutes and nothing. Could this have anything to do with his lumps?
He had his teeth floated and the vet looked at what she could see and said nothing about glass or plastic in his cheek or bad teeth. She said the drainage tract is to far back to have teeth involved.
Any help would be wonderful. Getting much information from my vet is hard. She does not alarm you like some vets do yet I seem to come way with holes in the diagnosis. We did Blood work in January and he did not have an elevated white blood count. Good news his knee is good to go back to work slowly. His flexion test was good, so I can start him back to work gradually. He has been hand walked and or rode bareback at a walk with some light jogging since January.
I’ve raised three kids to adulthood and I have now learned you can’t take your eyes off a 3 year old gelding that has a very high play drive and puts everything in his mouth, and eats anything. Pine branches and all.
I look forward to your ideas on this part of Keepers sage.
Laurie
PS I'll try and take some photos today
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 12:02 pm:
Laurie, I sympathize with your lack of ability to get info from your vet. I think sometimes vets think you are able to read their minds!
As you are learning, having a young horse is every bit as difficult as having a 2yr. old child running around the place. They certainly are able to get into trouble! I've no advice, but am reading your posts and wish you well. Hopefully, Keeper will grow up one day, just like your kids did!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 8:29 pm:
Laurie, It would seem that a horse could potentially have an adverse reaction to eating pine branches if he has been doing that.
Hope that you get some healing with the deep "draining tract" and some answers from the test.
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 12:27 am:
Sara and Vicki thank you for your response. He does not eat evergreen needles from the trees in his pasture, but if he's around one while out on the property, he tastes it and eats it. My last horse was a Rocky and he did that for a few months when I first got him. Since all of these lumps have come up. Starting in March we have monitored everything he eats and trying to make sure he does not get into anything.
I've just not been around 2 and 3 year olds. It's a learning experience. He is the best horse I have ever had the opportunity to be with. My last horse was 4 when I got him and he had his own issued of being the bully. Can someone really explain what a drainage track is and how it is created, also how long does it take to get this way?
Thanks in advance,
Laurie
But it does seem like one thing after another and I'
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 9:13 am:
Did your horse have a fever Laurie? As to how long, it is impossible to tell if this is a mature draining track. That could have been there quite some time. It is possible that sharp piece of plastic did this but then again many things are possible and what you really need to do is focus on what is and not what might be. Then again unexplained draining lymph nodes from a horses head is a pretty common event and often will heal themselves up. Your location and size are a bit off the normal however.
If your veterinarian feels this is a ruptured abscess and it is a draining tract, the number one and two questions should be: "where is it draining from?" and "why did it become abscessed?". If a good physical exam does not answer this it may require ultrasound or radiography.
If this is a lymph node that is draining there may be a relation between this and the other enlarged lymph nodes but with lots of possibilities. Considering this possibility of a systemic disorder I would wonder what a complete blood count with differential (CBD) revealed. Since the skin nodules have a inflammatory component it might stimulate the lymph nodes.
Figure out where and why on the draining lymph node then postulate a connection is the proper order of things.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 10:29 am:
I would be very surprised if a horse had a reaction to pine. I guess it's possible, but not probable. Deer eat pines a lot as do most other ungulates; pine nuts were a staple food of many native american tribes; Muir made tea from the needles; and I've had horses eat pines with now problems. Yews and larches are another matter, however. So be sure there are none where your horse is turned out.
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 10:55 am:
The vet did not list a fever so I would assume no. 1-20-09 his WBC was 7.4 his RBC 7.79 She did not feel doing another blood work yet was necessary. Her words on my receipt are:
He has a draining tract on the mandible. Shaved scrubbed and probed it's quite deep but has minimal discharge. His out part of the mandible was swollen yesterday, but I'm sure it was from all the probing and the antibiotics she shot up the tract. this morning the opening is still crusted over yet a drip happen every so often of clear, with a tint of yellow/orange DrOps out. He's is eating fine and taking the pills fine. She did not say she thought it was for sure a lymph node cause or just an involvement due to a wound or the plastic possibly. No ultra sound was done and no x-rays.
If it was your horse what would you do at this point after reading what has been done.
What is days would be the quickest and longest it would take to do this? She said the track is in the bone?
I'll send photo's later today.
My vet is pushing for the blood allergy test that is $300.00.
Thanks
Laurie
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 11:43 am:
Some say lots of pine needles over a period of days will cause cattle to abort.
As to horses eating pine, here is the
answer to this question from Cornell University:
BRIEF: Are pine trees harmful to horses?
QUESTION:
I am trying to find out if Pine trees are harmful to horses. Should they eat them?
ANSWER:
Pine trees will do them no good. There is very little there of nutritive value in it and there are essential oils, terpenes, etc. that can cause problems for some individuals. Some of these compounds (eg from Ponderosa pine needles) kick up estrogen levels high enough to cause abortion. Another problem is that some people think the ornamental yew bush is a pine, but a few mouthfuls of THAT and your horse is dead. try to find out which species you have.
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Member:
3chip
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 2:41 pm:
Pine Needles will cause cattle (cows) to abort if consumed. There is no effect on horses (mares). Pine Needles contain a certain acid (I don't recall its name) when ingested causes cattle to abort but has no effect on most other species. At one time it was thought that turpentine in the needles was the culprit but that no longer holds true.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 4:12 pm:
Interesting about the pines. You learn something every day here on HA!
Laurie, I've read that allergy tests aren't very helpful on horses. It seems like Dr. O has commented to that affect also; there may be more info on them on the HA site; I haven't looked.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 8:11 am:
Laurie, your most important statement was more of a post script but should have been in bold enlarged letters: the veterinarian believes the infection "is in the bone". It is recommended to confirm this and try to determine the source (which bone and where on it) and nature of the infection (trauma, tooth, etc)and whether surgical debridement to remove any dead bone (sequestrum) is necessary. This may require contrast radiography where a radiopaque liquid is flushed up the tract to see where it leads. You can take a wait and see if the antibiotic and local wound care works but in general bone infections do not spontaneously develop: there is a cause that may be ongoing.
It may be possible this infection has been seeding the blood (septicemia) resulting in the enlarge peripheral lymph nodes, though without fever it suggests this might not still be going on. I still have problems relating this to your bumps but we continue to struggle with an exact cause of your bumps.
Concerning the skin bumps as long as they seem more of a nuisance than a life threatening problem I would put on hold any systemic steroid treatment until the jaw problem is under control and healing.
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 2:06 pm:
DrO, I'm sure everyone on this site wishes you could come see their horses, I do. I'm going to wait and see what the culture tells the vet when the results come back that should be soon. I'll wait to send the pictures showing the location of the opening to the draining tract. The lymph nodes that were the size of large eggs are going down. I hope the swelling from all the probing goes down also. He now is very sensitive to having his check touched and that I would expect.
From what you wrote I should be alarmed and the vet should want to know the why. I agree about the steroids. nothing till this is resolved, for me it's the most important issue he has at this moment. I can also assume if the infection is in the bones as she thinks, we have to find the cause, antibiotics will not be the cure alone, Am I correct to assume that? Also if it has gone into the bone, that sounds like it would take more then a month to get to this point, do you agree?
I love this site and it has been wonderful to get such great responses.
Thanks all,
Laurie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 9:36 am:
No Laurie, we don't ever recommend alarm. You see I don't know anything about your horse but what you tell me. The hardest part of my job here is separating out faulty assessments from the facts and finding unnoted but important observations. I can never be sure how well I have done that.
So I put forth this information not as a diagnosis and treatment plan that should alarm anyone but as educational information hopefully with enough background that you understand the reasoning so that you can see how it applies to your situation. This gives you a firmer basis for discussion of the pros and cons of your next step with your veterinarian.
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 12:01 pm:
DrO,
You did not alarm me, I was already alarmed. I hit the internet, when I don't understand something, read as much as I can find, using different searches. That's how I found Horse Advice. I have been reading the discussion articles as Keepers symptoms developed. I've made a time line of all that I can come up with, I have talked with the breeder in Kansas, the previous owner and the lady that has 2 other horses from that breeder same stallion who came from Kansas at the same time. My vet never even looked at my time line or asked questions of me.
The word draining tract is very new, what I found on the internet, talks about teeth involvement. My vet said it's to far back to have teeth involved. She said possible Strangles, that's why the culture. Last September when he had his pre-purchase he got a 100. She found absolutely nothing wrong with him; she even said that is unusual. She floated his teeth, pulled his wolf teeth that were very large and two baby teeth that were loose. He does have a mild overbite that was mentioned last Friday. Last Friday she pulled another loose tooth (he turns 4 this month) and floated his teeth again. I asked why pull it, why not let it fall out and she said it's best to pull so they don't swallow it. She made no mention of anything unusual in his mouth that would be related to the draining tract. She does lots of refreshers in dentistry and loves that part, so I have good faith in her decisions with teeth.
Keeper is responding to the antibiotics. Last night he looked better. I looked at the hole inside under his right mandible, it had been crusted and hard with a line of hard discharge that had run and dried (golden clear look to it) Last night it looked like a scab on a wound. Clean as can be, dark red scab and less swelling, I even had to ask my husband if he washed it, it was so clean. I am amazed each time I look at this horse, from dry and crusty to clean and scabbed? Should radiographs be done before the tract tries to heal with the antibiotics? For me logically, it could heal and come back later once the antibiotics are done if the cause is not determined, let alone deterioration of his mandible if the bone is involved. Should we be taking a wait and see approach? How much information does a culture give?
As a note to his now less important issues:
We had a nice hot day on Sunday so I gave him a bath with Microdex shampoo. It seems the flat scabs that are small are going away, He had less I could feel and scrap off this time compared to the last bath 2 weeks ago. His coat looks better now.
Fecal sample came back yesterday no Parasites. Waiting for the culture and will count his lumps again this Saturday, they have not changed in size as I can tell.
Your information helps me find my way and try to ask the right questions to my vet and put things in order of importance.
What lead me to horse advice was having two different opinions of treatment and concern from two vets, seemed they agreed he had bumps, but that was about it.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 10:05 am:
If the draining tract is not healing well I would pursue further diagnostic work but I would not take apart anything that looks like it is healing up. As to whether to go ahead and radiograph that is a call on your part: Do you want to know as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and no matter the cost? Or do you want to spend as little as possible if there is a chance it will go ahead and heal? Most folks lie between these two extremes but only you can decide where your goals and resources are at.
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 11:32 am:
Thank you again,
I checked Keeper over again last night. I don't feel any of his lumps/bumps getting smaller or increasing in great quantities. I do for sure know the one that was given the steroid is almost gone.
So with that said, once the draining track is taken care of and he is off antibiotics. I plan to do the steroids.
How long would you suggest to wait between healing of the track/antibiotics and steroids?
Would you suggest doing the steroids first then give E/W tetanus, West Nile and flu or visa versa?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 7:50 am:
Hello Laurie,
Concerning how long to wait this is best as a clinical judgement by the veterinarian who is looking at the horse. In short when the exam suggests the infection in cleared up.
It could be done either way, just give the vaccines at least 3 weeks before the steroid is administered. In the case of the steroid first it depends on the type, amount, and how it is administered.
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 1:26 pm:
Culture came back per my vet’s voice mail to me last night she said: NOT strangles but is STREP infection, glad we have him on antibiotics.
He is drinking less and less and more and more lethargic. He is eating well and taking his antibiotics well, he has a good look to his eye. No change in the lumps and bumps except more seem to have crusty tops now. The lymph glands by his hind legs are smaller and much softer then when the vet pointed them out. His draining track is looking better and better, still some drainage, but all swelling is gone.
How serious is a strep infection? Is it contagious like strangles or is it a secondary to something else?
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 2:11 pm:
Talked with the vet. She said he has 2 forms of bacteria and the antibiotics he is on usually works. She said he is NOT contagious. He has Strongles so I am again to worm with a straight ivermectin. He was wormed on 3-1 with Tape-care plus, which is a Pyrantel Pamoate paste.
Any suggestions?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 6:47 pm:
It is not the strep that is as much a concern as the cause of the infection. Strep is largely treatable but if the cause not eliminated it may be difficult to eradicate.
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 3:23 pm:
Update: Draining track is healing well, Antibiotics finished on Tuesday, Most of Keepers bumps seem to be crusted, I feel a few coming up to the surface, not many and it seems no new ones.
He has no fever, eats,drinks and poops well. He just seems dull. Even when he had his lumps and a bad knee, he had ambition and spirit. My vet feels the draining track and strep could have been from a puncture wound (t-post). If that is not the case how long would you say it will take for it to return? After being on the antibiotics should he be acting like his old self by now?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 7:47 am:
Laurie, how long will depend on what's else might be wrong. As to whether he should be his old self depends on whether he has gotten well from what you are treating, whether there is some other illness, and/or if he is having a reaction to the antibiotic.
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 2:22 pm:
More on Keeper. I waited 15 days after finishing the antibiotics for the strep infection under his jaw. It is staying healed, no swelling and no raised temp. I decided to start with two vaccines the Tetanus and West Nile(Fort Dodge). These were given at the same time on Wednesday afternoon. This morning he is having a reaction of being very stiff in the neck. He will lower his head but very carefully to the ground, he will not raise it above his top line and very little side to side. He did eat his hay and has grazed some on the pasture. He has that I don't feel good look and does not like being touched around his neck. I do not feel any signifficant swelling in any one part of his neck or at the injection site. My vet said give 1 gram Bute once a day, to make him more comfortable. I've read your pages about vaccines. So withthis reaction and all the other auto immune reactions. How do you advise me to go further?
Would you give any other vaccinations and if so when. Once we have done all the vaccinations and waited 2 weeks I'm going to start the Steroids for most likely 30 days. The one Steriod injection site is basically gone, Most of the others have crusted and He seems not to be getting a lot more of them. He's been getting a bath at least every other week and wearing a fly sheet.
I look forward to your reply
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 2:26 pm:
More on Keeper. I waited 15 days after finishing the antibiotics for the strep infection under his jaw. It is staying healed, no swelling and no raised temp. I decided to start with two vaccines the Tetanus and West Nile(Fort Dodge). These were given at the same time on Wednesday afternoon. This morning he is having a reaction of being very stiff in the neck. He will lower his head but very carefully to the ground, he will not raise it above his top line and very little side to side. He did eat his hay and has grazed some on the pasture. He looks like he doesn't feel good and does not like being touched around his neck. I do not feel any significant swelling in any one part of his neck or at the injection site. My vet said give 1 gram Bute once a day, to make him more comfortable. I've read your pages about vaccines. So withthis reaction and all the other auto immune reactions. How do you advise me to go further?
Would you give any other vaccinations and if so when. Once we have done all the vaccinations and waited 2 weeks I'm going to start the Steroids for most likely 30 days. The one Steroid injection site is basically gone, Most of the others have crusted and He seems not to be getting a lot more of them. He's been getting a bath at least every other week and wearing a fly sheet.
I look forward to your reply
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, May 2, 2009 - 7:04 am:
Hello Laurie,
The decision to vaccinate must be made in light of the risk of the disease vs the cost and risk of the vaccine. This is a decision best made by you working with your veterinarian.
I have several horses in my practice that get sore necks following vaccination if not pretreated with bute of flunixin, for more on this and other ways to lessen the reactions see, Horse Care » Horse Vaccines, Vaccination, Coggins Test » Vaccines and Adverse Reactions. I would note that the dose of bute of 1 gm once a day is very low for a full size horse and if the horse is not getting well on that you might consider higher dosages with your veterinarian. For more on this see Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Phenylbutazone (Bute).
DrO
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Member:
machtoby
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 11:58 am:
Dr O.
Update on Keeper. I gave him West Nile and Tetanus. Waited and started Prednisone 2 grams for 10 days and then DrOp to 1 gram for 20 days. It’s a powder so 2 scoops, then one scoop. I also have been mixing 50/50 Nolvasan and Aloe Vera gel and putting it on the lumps and bumps area’s between his front legs, inside of his hind legs, around his sheath and up his belly line. His surface bumps have almost ALL disappeared. The deep lumps seem to be going away also. This is all in the first 10 days. Also has a brighter look in his eye and doing really well in all area’s. His knee is doing awesome, I am gradually stepping up the work out and he has gone from not being able to turn on the forehand to the left without stepping on his own hoof to making a good cross over, so the knee is getting back in shape, he is gaining muscle and endurance. He still is having trouble under saddle on step down hill grades when riding on the trails we have. It appears his knee gets somewhat sore, so I have backed off on that again.
I have to thank you for all your input in these matters and will continue to keep you updated as to his progress.
Thank you
Laurie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 5:09 pm:
Thanks Laurie and delighted to hear things are straightening out somewhat.
DrO
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hand typed lab results
Keepers abscess