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  Discussion on Stallion negative, foal solid white.
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Member:
lindas

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 3:13 pm:

My mare foaled this morning and I am very worried because the filly is solid white with a little black only on the tip and underside of her tail. Both horses are overo Paints, but the stallion was tested for lethal white before the current owners bought him and he was negative. The testing papers are in his file, so I know the current owners were not just told he was negative. I do trust the breeders as they are very good friends and professional Paint breeders, so I did not insist on seeing the papers for myself. (which I would have done if I did not know the breeders well) The mare is a maiden, bay frame overo with white on her back legs and under belly. The stallion is a light red roan splash overo, with 70% white on his body. He is 19 years old and been mated to dozens of overos and has never had a lethal white. I thought we were safe on this one, even though I did not test the mare. (yeah, I know, bad idea, but my daughter wanted a baby out of her "baby") As far as I know he has not sired other solid white foals, but he has sired a lot that are exactly like him (not a lot of dark color) We are in touch with our vet, and basically it is just a wait and see game now. He said we would know within 72 hours, but your article says 12 to 24 hours. What are your thoughts on this? Is there any way my friends could have misinterpreted the test papers?
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 3:43 pm:

Linda, my experience agrees with the article - 12-24 hours, with the start of decline usually seen sooner than later.

I have known at least one paint baby that was very nearly all white that was fine.

Hoping upon hope that yours is too...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 4:18 pm:

Linda congrats on your baby! Since your foal has a tiny bit of color (even if it's on the tail and underside) doesn't that rule out a lethal white?

Hope your foal is OK
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 6:02 pm:

Linda, or Dr. Linda, ha, whichever you prefer, I am with Dianne, I think a splash of color rules out lethal white. And these colts are funny things, on my Dad's Qtr horse farm (he has about 150 head, give or take) I have seen paints literally "grow into" their spots, seen solid whites turn palomino, and palominos turn into roans, so who knows, right? And the closest breeding and bloodline watching cannot do away with those genes and chromosomes that have been dormant for 100's of years, and are just now "triggered", and that is totally unpredictable. I am sure all of us could tell stories or two (or ten) on our foals colors. I mean, just ask someone trying to get a buttermilk buckskin! I tried for years, and never got one until I rescued a buckskin from an abandoned coal mine, lol. And now that she is healthy, she may end up being a Dunn. Oh well, she is still my baby.

But congrats on the baby. I have seen an appaloosa show where a horse with two spots could compete as long as both parents were appaloosas, so maybe that is the case with paints...I wouldn't know, even though I have three paints now I am trying to get rid of (rescues as well).
Member:
lindas

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 8:37 pm:

Ya'll can call me Linda any day...I'm not at work here! My techs and clients call me Dr. Linda because most of them have trouble with my last name. Not too many names like that in the south!
A tiny splash of color does not rule out lethal white. My large animal vet was just out here and he says the only thing that gives him hope is the paperwork from the lab that says the stallion was negative. He has seen a few that had a spot of color. Unfortunately I just found out that my friends sold their stud a couple of weeks ago so we can't go back and double check the paperwork. On the positive side, perhaps she is just a cremello or light palamino. The skin on her back does not appear to be pink like that on her belly and legs. It's hard to tell because the hair is so thick in that area. We will have to wait and see.

My vet came out because the foal had not nursed after 8 hours, and he tubed it and gave it an oral solution to replace antibodies. The little filly has been trying but could not find the teat. I tried to help after 3-4 hours of frustration, but she still did not get it. Of course, as soon as the vet left the baby found her mama's tit and has been going at it ever since! He gave her an enema and she did not pass anything yet. We are hoping that it is because she had not yet eaten and had not pushed any meconium into the rectum. Otherwise that raises the concern for lethal white. She is now 10 hours old and with renewed strength from the dextrose/antibodies he gave her along with her mama's colostrum she is very vigorous. I hope it continues this way. I'll keep you posted.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 9:29 pm:

Linda, I hope things continue to go well and we will soon see pics of her.

Good Luck
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 9:45 pm:

Hope the little one does alright. Keep us posted.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 11:32 pm:

I don't know a whole lot about lethal white, but I just wanted to offer my well wishes and congratulations for your foal. Aside from the concern with the white, I bet she is just beautiful. Maybe she is cremello like you said, or maybe even perlino. Those darn babies can sure fool you with their colors. We have the hardest time guessing colors and a lot of times end up guessing wrong. I have a sorrel papered chestnut and a chestnut papered sorrel to prove it. hehe

Anyhow please keep us posted. And we would sure love to see pictures if you get the chance.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 5:50 am:

Hello DrS,
The half dozen lethal whites I have seen were always quicker than 24 hours. Delayed feeding may delay the onset of colic however. I too am hanging on the genetic testing but will worry until you see stool.
DrO
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 7:17 am:

Linda,

I too am sending my best wishes for your foal. Hope all turns out well and baby continues to thrive.
Member:
lindas

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 8:03 am:

We have poop! This morning she was sleeping in the stall and has black sticky paste plastered under her tail. Her dam is EXTREMELY aggressive so I can't get too close. Last night we had to give the mother a short acting tranquilizer so we could work with the baby. I could not hold her even with a twitch. The baby likes to sleep under her mother and I am afraid she will get stepped on. It has already happened at least 3 times and I don't want her hurt. No nursing observed this morning. The baby is very sleepy, I hope the tranquilizer did not pass through the milk, but we really had no choice. The vet is coming out at 6 tonight to check passive transfer. Weather permitting we will take them out to a grassy paddock this morning so we can clean the stall.
Now if I can figure out how to download pictures on to this site I'll send some.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 8:18 am:

VERY good news Linda! Look forward to seeing pics of her. Babies do a lot of sleeping for the first few days. It's hard being a baby!
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 8:49 am:

Linda, I thought I posted this a.m., but when I just got back to my computer screen, I found that I just did the "Preview post," but I'm glad because now I can say, "GREAT NEWS!"
I read about the disease this a.m. Since I was a teen, I've never been really focused on the breeding of horses, so don't know about lots of the unusual pitfalls that accompany it. I'm very happy for you. It must have been a tense night. Maybe the foal will, indeed, get more color as time passes. Always like to see pictures, so am looking forward to yours.
Take care around that grumpy mare. Sounds like she needs a few glasses of jos's best wine.
Now you can start thinking of names for your baby :-)
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 11:28 am:

Linda, So glad to hear the good news! Keep watching for more nursing though. I am like you, I wonder if the tranq passed thru the milk. If so, I would think (hope) it would be a small amount and wear off soon. Keep watching for her to nurse and pee, and of course, poop some more. If you can get past the mare to clean off the baby's butt it might help you be able to tell if she poops more. Those darn mares make it hard to 'doctor' babies sometimes.

As for pics, once you DL them to your computer, you can upload them by clicking "upload attachment" just below the "post" window. *points down* The only thing is... you may have to resize them to make them smaller files before you upload. Hope that helps.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:35 pm:

Linda,

Hopefully by now its 3:18 EST you have a positive answer and that it is good news.

I read about lethal whites after I read this thread. I'm just curious what color are the foals eyes? The article I read said lethal whites have blue eyes and very little skin pigment.

As too your grumpy maiden mare, be careful. When my mare foaled her first one ( my now 3 year old). She was not very cooperative about anything and very protective of her baby. She foaled on a breeding farm and I got there 5 minutes after the foal was born. The owner of the farm who has lots and lots of experience with all types of mares had tried to help the mare while she was foaling, the mare wanted no part of it and promptly stood up at any attempt to help. She finally left her alone and the foaling proceeded without intervention.

When I got there the baby was in the corner and the mare was delivering the placenta. The farm owner bent down to deal with the normal baby needs and the mare put her shark face on, charged the owner and put a hole in her head. The farm owner was ok, even though her head hurt. The mare had to be handled carefully anytime the baby had to be messed with and they had a special hook that they used to catch her. It seemed once she was caught she was ok. It took about 6 weeks for the guys on the farm to be able to handle her without the hook.

In contrast, when she had the second baby in 2008. She was only protective the first week and after that she couldn't have cared less. She did wear a rope, so they could catch her more easily.

I hope everything turns out well for you and I am looking forward to the pictures.

Rachelle
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:46 pm:

Glad to hear about the poop, Dr. Linda (cutting down the middle). I hope the baby's vigor improves, along with the Mom's attitude.
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 4:32 pm:

My gosh.....I remember seeing a foal several years ago and someone said "lethal white" but I forgot all about it until now..........

Have my fingers crossed that your new baby is doing well this afternoon. I would wonder about the tranquilizer passing thru to the baby too......any thoughts on that DrO?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 7:49 pm:

Yes all the common sedatives will come through the milk. I don't usually see an effect on the foal however until the second or third injection of sedative when trying to get a mare to accept a foal. Have things improved Linda?
DrO
Member:
lindas

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 9:06 pm:

Sadly, they did not improve. The foal became very weak as the morning went on. I gave her some banamine and another enema, as she was painful. My large animal vet was two hours away doing herd work for the morning, so I DrOve in to work and picked up 2 bags of fluids and added dextrose. We moved the mare into another stall so we did not get hurt, and with some friends helping I put an IV catheter in her and ran two bags of fluids. The only thing that improved was her gum color. Her legs were ice cold, as she was in shock. Her eyes, which had been blue, turned green...(sepsis, Dr. O???) When my vet arrived at about 3 pm we decided that she could not survive, even if I took her to a university for special care, and we euthanized her.

Of course we are all broken hearted, especially my sweet 14 year old daughter and her wonderful mare that gave birth to this foal. My vet and I have decided that this is most definitely lethal white, even if the stallion was negative. All the signs were there, and the stool was just leaking out of her...there was no rectal tone at all. I'm sure she had an impaction beyond the reach of our fingers and was having diarrhea around it. I see that in dogs and cats all the time, why not horses? University of California-Davis Genetic Laboratory has information on their web site under testing for coat color. The last paragraph in the lethal white section says that there is still a possibility of a carrier state if by chance the parent(s) that tested negative had an unusual condition in which they carried the gene at a site other than that which was tested in the laboratory. I did not know this, apparently it is rare.
I do not know if I will breed this mare again, (my daughter is still talking about having one of Gypsy's babies) but if I do it will be to a Quarter Horse with no overo lineage or cropouts in the bloodline. I would rather have a healthy solid baby than paint color. Then the baby will be tested to see if it is a carrier. We will see. Maybe I can talk my daughter into buying one of this years crop of weanlings later in the summer to raise as her own.

Thank you all for your wonderful words of encouragement and support. It really means alot.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 9:16 pm:

So sorry to hear about the sad outcome, Linda. I hope your daughter can find a foal she can love and raise.
Lilo
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 9:44 pm:

I am sooo sorry Dr. Linda.....I know many here had their fingers crossed that all would turn out well.

((((((((((Dr. Linda and family))))))))))
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 9:45 pm:

Linda, I'm sorry to hear about your baby, what a sad outcome for you all.
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 10:11 pm:

So sad for you all, Linda. Will you be able to track down the stud and let the new owners know? I don't know how difficult (or easy) it is to track a registered Paint. Some registries have a really good tracking system.

From your post, I now know more about the Lethal White Gene disease and understand how devastating it is.

If your daughter really wants a foal, I know there are so many available right now. Maybe it wouldn't be a Gypsy baby, but it's really tough to wait another year for a foal. Can you find an orphan foal to nurse your mare?
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 11:30 pm:

I'm so sorry Linda. I know that you had really been looking forward to this baby. And please give your daughter a great big hug from all of us on Horseadvice.
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 12:02 am:

I wanted to post this link since there are thoughts of rebreeding the mare for another foal next year? From everything I just read, this short article appears to have the most pertinent info. My guess is that the OLWS is a recessive gene and when seen in a foal, both parents will each carry one of the genes? Makes me wonder how the stallion tested negative......... At the same time, that would mean that the mare also carries one of the genes. To be safe, the stallion would have to be proven to carry no LWS genes...but if the mare does, wouldn't that mean that the foal may be a carrier DrO?

Such a sad disease or everyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_White_SynDrOme
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 8:26 am:

My condolences Linda,
Your foal started with problems as demonstrated by the slow development of nursing. This is not consistent with OWLS as they normally start out just fine. I have not seen a lethal white that had stools including meconium so I remain skeptical of the diagnosis. If this is lethal white I think the results of the testing on the Stallion was simply erroneous at least more likely than preposing a brand new genetic defect. I would certainly inform them of your problems so they can consider a retest.

Linda as to the increasing depression I would consider two possibilities: sepsis and/or hypoglycemia. Linda how much dextrose did you give?
DrO
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 9:16 am:

Very sorry to hear about your foal, Dr. Linda. So many things can go wrong with newborns. I have only heard second-hand accounts of Lethal White foals, but none of those foals (according to the story) passed anything at all.

Here in CO, I believe the test is $25. It may be worth running it on your mare, when the dust clears from your loss.

For the foal, it doesn't matter, but it may be significant for the breeding reputation of the stallion and (possibly) the breeding future of the mare. PattyB has it right that she would have to be a carrier to produce an OWLS foal (so would the stallion), and would have 25% chance of producing a carrier, even bred to a n/n stallion. (If the stallion is positive, these odds change to 25% OWLS, 50% carrier, 25% mutation free).
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 10:53 am:

Aaaawww so sorry Linda. I know losing a foal is absolutely heart breaking. My sympathies to you, your family and your wonderfully protective mare. I always recommend to owners that have lost a foal to ask around to see if anyone has an orphan that needs a nurse mare, assuming of course, your mare is accepting to it and you are willing. Sometimes it helps to heal the loss and brings a little good out of it.

Again, my condolences. *big horsie hugs*
Member:
stek

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 11:22 am:

So sorry to hear that Linda, how heartbreaking. IMHO I don't think the trouble nursing was related, I have seen many many foals have trouble latching on in the beginning. We would always milk out the mare and bottle feed from near her udder every hour if the foal hadn't nursed by hour #3. With a lethal white though there is absolutely nothing you can do to help, the most frustrating and heartbreaking thing of all I think.

Big hugs to you and your daughter, and best of luck finding a weanling for her to raise.
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 1:16 pm:



Please give a big HA hug to your daughter.
L645
Member:
frances

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 1:57 pm:

Such a sad thing - I'm so sorry to hear it Linda. Like many others, I thought it was going to be alright when some meconium seemed to have appeared.

All the best to you, your daughter and the mare at this sad time.
Member:
erika

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 3:50 pm:

Oh, so sad for you all. My friends recently lost a Lethal White foal. Such hopes and dreams we all have for any baby. Very tough to lose one.

Hugs for you and your daughter.
Erika
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 7:49 pm:

Dr. Linda,

I am so sorry for your loss, I really was hoping to hear better news. Condolences to your entire family.

I know its too late to test the baby, but perhaps you should test the mare.

If Dr. O is right, maybe something else was wrong with the baby and the coat color was just a coincidence. If the mare tests negative, then you may have your answer and your daughter may be able to breed the mare and get her baby, maybe not this year but in the future.

I'd be curious as to whether the breeders may want to test their stallion again, I am sure they do not want to be known as the people with a stallion that throws lethal whites and if he is positive, they may only want to do breedings to totally negative mares.

Rachelle
Member:
lindas

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 10:53 pm:

Yes, there are a lot of things to consider here.

Dr. O...I do not know how much dextrose my vet put in the oral antibody solution, but it sure perked the baby up. Within a few minutes she was nursing well, and continued to nurse until I went to bed about midnight. The next morning at 7 am I went out and she had colic symptoms. She was extremely painful and deteriorated throughout the day. I gave a total of 100 ml 50% dextrose in two liters of fluids. It improved her gum color but her extremities remained ice cold and it did not help her mental attitude at all. Did I give enough? The eye color change was very weird.
The one sign that made my vet strongly consider lethal white was the complete absence of rectal tone. Upon palpation once you got past the anal sphincter the rectum was like a giant cavern, with no tone at all. When we gave the enemas the fluid disappeared up inside and nothing came back. She did not even try to defecate. Not normal at all.

We have considered breeding the mare again, of course, but are concerned about passing on a lethal gene. Funny thing is, I have read that the lethal white gene is so intimately connected with the overo pattern that something like 90% of frame overos have it. And you have to breed overos to get overos most of the time. So it is always risky, but we thought we were safe because the stallion was (supposedly) negative. I do have tail hairs that my veterinarian pulled out just before we put the filly down, and will be shipping them overnight to UC Davis tomorrow. It took me a day to get in touch with the lab but they were not concerned about the delay. That should tell us for certain if it was Lethal White. I will keep you posted. One interesting thing is they were able to tell me that, while the stallion had been genotyped for registration purposes at that lab, the Lethal White test had not been performed. Which makes me wonder if another lab had done it. Minnesota no longer does the blood testing, but they would be the most likely place since it was done a few years ago. Obviously if this is LWS, the lab work was either in error or a forgery. I'll leave it up to my friends to inform the new owner. (the stallion came to them with the lab results in his file, they saw no need to retest at the time)

Gosh, I wish we could find an orphan foal. I have asked around. Today the mare is much quieter, with only an occasional heartbreaking whinny. No more trying to jump over the stall door, and she seemed to enjoy her short period of turn out. We are keeping her legs and bag rinsed off with cool water, she seems to enjoy the cold hose, maybe it will give her some relief. My daughter has been online all day looking at draft breeds. She thinks she would like to look into purchasing a draft cross weanling or something similar later this summer if the baby is LWS positive. So things are looking up. She wants a bigger horse to train later on for showing/jumping and maybe dressage competition when she is in college. And that way she can continue to enjoy Gypsy for riding, trail, and shows for the rest of this year and all summer next year, without having to retire her again for "maternity leave". I think she missed her horse over the last two to three months since she had to stop riding her.
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 11:39 pm:

Dr. Linda, sorry for the late post to add my condloences. What you said about the lab test made me think though, we just had some folks get caught paying a lab tech to fudge some results on some gene test for Tennessee Walkers...so it is not unheard of. With photo shop, it is definitely plausible as well. With an expensive stud, and the likelihood of matching with a positive mare relatively low, it could definitely be a case where they told you he was tested and was not, or that the test was fudged. I guess it would have to depend on how much you trust the breeder.

And we even had an orphan foal...a filly whose mom rejected, and actually tried to kill. They were a "patient" of mine, as I helped with the delivery, and she tried to kill us both. The poor thing would not even think about sucking a bottle. We tried forcing it down, but she did not make it, and they chose to euthanize rather than watch her starve. If you were close, I would have brought her too you, but alas a week too late. And the hard headed owner refused to try much any way and would have given her to anyone who wanted. Some of these breeders, I tell you, are just heartless when it comes to stuff like that. They are the same ones who want to give me ten dollars after I have had my arm up twisting, getting pinched every contraction, losing feeling for hours, and getting kicked in the face more than once...well you get the picture, and I am sure their are others on here that can relate. I usually charge them a little extra, and call it the a**hole tax...pretty grim for a minister I know, but I do not hold them in high esteem.

On a soap box again, sorry. I wished I knew where another orphan was...I will try some of the rescues around here, as they are all plum full, and since they were running around wild last year, I am sure they are brooded up as well. We have 28 due in the next three weeks (not mine, clients), so if there is a rejection and yours still has her milk, we might could work something out...who knows. I am a praying man, and He (The Man) has surprised me more than once!
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 7:36 am:

Dr Linda,
I'm very sorry to hear of the loss of your foal. My condolences to you and your daughter.

Fran
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 9:32 am:

Shannon, you have it backwards. It is not that trouble nursing is responsible for the problems, it is that problems lead to a poorer a poorer investigation and suckle reflex.

Linda it is very hard for me to judge what might have made a difference, it certainly seemed hopeful that night before the death and if truly OWLS nothing would have helped.
DrO
Member:
lindas

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 12:34 pm:

I sent off the tail hairs today for the lethal white test. The test is only $25, but since it was the end of the week they asked me to overnight it. ($39...ugh!) It had been a while since I had to overnight anything and I was shocked! My advice is, if you have a Paint horse that you want to test to avoid this horrible synDrOme, take your hair tests on Monday and send them 2-3 day shipping. Most of these tests are not "emergencies", like it was in this case, but after many days the roots will start to deteriorate so it cannot sit in a UPS warehouse or truck over the weekend.
I also sent in a CBC on the filly. It should indicate if septicemia was part of the picture.

One of my weaknesses is that I am too trusting. I had seen the stallion's registration papers, but never thought to insist on seeing the rest of the file. After all, she was (and still is), a very good friend. They were not the ones who ran the test, the previous owners were. I have a feeling that someone forged something somewhere. Even I might have been fooled if I had looked at the papers, as I have never seen one of those test papers before. Don't know if there is a requirement that a DVM pull these samples. If not, the previous owners could have pulled a sample from any Overo Paint horse known to be negative and say that it was from that stallion.

Today the mare's bag is smaller and not distended. She still has milk but is not so uncomfortable. She seems calmer.

Dr. O...when you have time you might want to update the laboratory info on lethal white. The lab in Minnesota no longer does these particular tests. The only lab in the US that does them (according to Minnesota) is University of California-Davis Genetic Testing Laboratory. All of the information is on their web site.
Thanks to all of you for your support. I'll let you all know when the results come back, probably late next week.
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 1:28 pm:

Linda, we will all be interested to hear the test results. As far as I know there is not a requirement for a DVM to pull samples for testing, but I have been out of the paint business for nearly 10 years.. My guess would still be no since it's a voluntary test? I hope this doesn't turn out to be a case of fraud, but unfortunately some folks have no scruples.

Dr. O, I understand what you mean and have seen the decreased nursing reflex that goes along with lethal white foals. But the ones I have seen started strong initially and did not have a delayed ability to latch on, and only developed problems later. I was speaking specifically to the ability (or lack thereof) of the newborn to latch on and nurse vigorously the first few times as being unrelated to lethal white, at least in my experience, with is of course anecdotal.
Member:
lindas

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 10:03 pm:

From what I have heard from various people with different experiences is that some of these foals start vigorously and others are weak from the beginning. A friend worked at a very big Paint farm, and they have had several of these foals. The ones that never seemed to have a will to live had pink eyes, almost like albinos. I wonder if there was something else wrong with those foals in addition to the lethal white.

In my particular case the filly had a delay in nursing, but she did get up quickly and went right to the teat, she just could not figure out where the milk came from and how to turn her head to get to it. My mare was a maiden and had very small nipples, I'm sure that did not help. They would have stretched out if the foal had nursed on them awhile. Then again, one of the sayings I have when working with clients is "There is no rule that says you have to have only one thing going wrong". There could be lethal white (and I think that is what it was) and some other problem at the same time.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 11:04 pm:

I am so sorry to hear of your sad outcome with this baby.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 6:45 am:

Shannon you again misunderstand and misrepresent what I wrote. I was using the initial poor ability to find and suck the teats as an example that was not consistent with OWLS. My experiences are the same as yours as I state several times above and in the article.
DrO
Member:
stek

Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 10:18 am:

Dr O, sorry for the confusion .. sometimes things get lost in translation over the intertubes :-)

Linda, you make an excellent point, there can be many contributing factors, one of the things that makes animal medicine (or any medicine!) such a challenging practice. Hope your daughter is doing OK and starting to recover from the experience, that's a tough thing for a kid to have to go through.
Member:
lindas

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 8:36 am:

The genetic test results came back yesterday. The results on our filly were O/O, which is only found in Overo lethal white foals. Looks like we all got fooled. I smell a rat somewhere. I have not shared this with my friend who owned the stallion yet. He was a popular stud around here because of his sweet disposition, great conformation, impressive show record, and gorgeous babies. A lot of overo mare owners would breed to him with confidence in his supposed lethal white status. I don't know how many babies are expected this year. I just hope there aren't any more of these little ones. It is just too heartbreaking.
In my reading I have come across some information that this could have been a very rare condition in which two N/N (or N/N and N/O) horses produce a lethal white foal. It has something to do with the part of the gene that is carrying the allele. They only test one part of the gene and it is possible that it could be carried elsewhere on the gene in rare cases. Maybe that is what happened here.

Thank you all for your condolences. My daughter is doing much better. She is researching draft crosses...I may have to start another thread about that later. In the meantime, after I inform my friend of these test results I think I am going to let this go. It's time to heal and move on. But at least I know for certain now that I did the right thing by euthanizing the poor little filly when I did and not transporting her to a neonatal ICU and prolonging the agony.
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 9:34 am:

Well, that solves the mystery doesn't it, Linda? What a shame for all involved. But at least you don't have to second-guess your decision to release this foal from its misery.

Good luck in the search for a new horse. There are a lot of nice ones out there now.
Erika
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 10:59 am:

Thanks for sharing the results, Linda. Peace of mind is definitely worth a lot, knowing you did the right thing. Glad to hear your daughter is feeling better too. Good luck in your future breeding endeavors with the draft cross or whatever you decide on.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 9:58 pm:

DrS,
One questions may be solved in that the outcome would have been grave no matter what. And this assumes you believe that the genetic test has more diagnostic weight than the clinical features of stools being present. But the other mystery of the initial cause of illness still remains as this is not caused by OWLS.
DrO
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 10:19 pm:

I was just reading about that orphan foal, how sad. My mare also rejected her foal but she allowed me to milk her so I fed her with a syringe until I was able to get her to drink from a bowl. I bought a nipple from the feed store but I was never able to get her to suck on it, I even tried cutting the hole larger. I was lucky to have the filly's 31 year old grandmother, who was anxious to take over mothering the new baby. She even started producing milk after 17 years! I continued feeding her around the clock because I would not take a chance on her starving. You might contact all the vets in the area in case there is a orphan that they know about.

Cynthia
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