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| Discussion on 20 year old Percheron mare going down every 3 weeks | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 4:22 pm: Hi all,I am at my wits end on this one. We have a 20 year old Percheron mare that seems to go in cycles of going down every 3 weeks or so. We find her laying down in the field and we need to flip her to her other side for her to get up. The first time she laid down, she was in a box stall and we had quite the time getting her up in there so we made a standing stall thinking she could lean on the side some support but now she has gone down twice in there. Here is kind of a time frame -- started late November 2008. She went down in the box stall (all our horses come in at night and have box stalls). Banged up but not bad -- mostly rubs. We got her up, made a standing stall for her to be in at night and she did fine in the standing stall. December she was found down out in field by the hay feeders -- not pretty as snow and ice are a bit more damaging to tissues then rubber mats. Flip her over (with lots of friends and muscle) and up she comes. January, February and March -- same thing -- down in the field, flip her over and up she comes. Friday, she went down in the standing stall. Got a very good lesson on how to use tow straps over the chest to pull her backwards out of her standing stall, flip her over, and up she comes. She has always been going down on her right side. These have all been about 3 weeks apart. Now, 3 days later, she went down again, but this time on her left side, and she got her eye banged up pretty bad and shoulder, hip, knee and ankle rubs. She also has mats in her standing stall (thank goodness.)My plan for tonight is to put her and her team mate in a smaller outside paddock so if she goes down, hopefully damages will be minimal. The strange thing is once we flip her and she gets up, she walks out the stiffness in her muscles and you would never think anything happened except for her rub marks. I certainly don't mind treating her wounds, but my question is -- has anyone ever come across this before? Do you have any suggestions? She is in good flesh, on a regular deworming program, has had her annual and spring vaccines for this year (and every year -- 6 in one, rabies, west nile, potomac), has a great appetite, she gets vitamin E and selenium supplements as she was low normal on her blood tests, but all else on the blood tests were normal. Normal TPR. I guess part of what I'm really asking, is if you have any opinions on what it may be. Every three weeks -- cyclical? Original weakness seems to have been on the right side, but this last episode was on the left. I'm kind of lost at this point and don't feel that she is suffering, so I'm not quite ready for euthanasia unless she let's me know it's time and I haven't seen that yet. Any thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanking everyone in advance, Sherry from Michigan |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 6:20 pm: Hi Sherry, I'm kind of confused. What do you mean by "goes down" does she fall? or do you mean she can't rise from the lying down position?What does she do when she is trying to get up? Do her front legs go out but she can't lift herself with the hinds? Can you give a little better description of what she does? That might help ring a bell with someone. |
| Member: mitch316 |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 7:12 pm: Sherry, if you mean that she is lying down when found, you have a very perplexing problem indeed. I have seen and heard of horses with conditions like this, but would hate to speculate. I can however offer advice on keeping her up in her stalls.The standing advice, mostly wives tales, but some truth, was that if you had a horse (or cow) down, if you could keep them on their feet, their survival rates would increase. I am not sure how true that is, but the way my grandpa and dad would keep them up overnight would help you here. First off, remember that while the majority of horses sleep standing up for a good part of the time, they CANNOT stand during REM (rapid eye movement sleep, or dreaming sleep). So if a horse is sleeping lying down (foals are the exception), they are "REMing". It used to be thought that they would dream during this stage, but recent studies have proven this to be unprovable. Useless knowledge for keeping one standing. Here is how we would do it. When placed in a "standing stall", we would place two ratchet straps, one right behind the front legs where the girt would go, and one under the flanks. They would need to form a bow, with the ends higher than the weight bearing portion. They would need to be tight, but not enough to lift her feet off of the ground. I wished I could draw this for you, but consider a u, with weight bearing at the bottom. Pad the sides of the stall around her head in case she has an episode. I hope that did not confuse you, but you are basically using the ratchet straps as safety harnesses. Now, as to what is causing the problems to start with...the only things I could suggest were seizures of some sort (brain lesions can cause periods like this) or low blood sugar can do the same. But really, there are dozens and dozens of possibilities as to why a horse would "fall down" and need help back up. With a 20 year old, she could just be lying down for her REM sleep and have arthritis that prevents her from getting up unassisted, but that too is speculation. So it is all speculation EXCEPT the straps...they work, I have used it on both horses and cows. Ratchet straps can also be used to help one person lift a large animal if they know how to position them, but should use caution because they can injure as well. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 8:06 pm: IF you find her already lying down, I'm also wondering if she doesn't go down to sleep then can't get back up. Our old mare (the same one that wasn't eating a few weeks ago if you read that thread) went down and got cast (we think) and strained her upper inside right leg trying to get back up. The leg has now become weaker than her left rear leg and it's very difficult for her to push herself up if she goes down on the left side and has to use her right rear leg for leverage. She's smart, and kind of scoots herself around so she's more up on her chest then uses her left leg. I wonder if with your old girl, she hasn't down something to weaken a leg, or as suggested above if she has arthritis which is making it difficult for her to get back up. If she is rolled over to her opposite side, can she then figure out how to get up? Or are both her hind legs weak enough to make this difficult? Or, do you think it is some other problem? Are there any other symptoms? |
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 9:32 pm: Hi, Sherry,Having a horse go down is an awful thing. Just can't pick 'em up like a dog or cat, and you certainly don't want them down for many hours. It is my understanding that drafts are prone to hind-end weakness as they age. I have a half-draft, who looks all draft, who is a bit older than your mare (29) and I have noticed this year that he does have to really heave to get his butt off the ground after lying down. Maybe, the Morgan part of him is keeping him more nimble than if he were all Belgian. I can't offer you much in the way of solutions and it sounds like you are doing a wonderful job with feeding and keeping an eye on your mare. As they age, horses do develop more physical weaknesses. (don't we all?) You can only do what you can do. When it becomes more than you can safely handle, or when the mare's quality of life isn't what you desire for her, then you will know what to do. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 7:27 am: Hello Sherry,I would like a little more information too, specifically: 1) How does she lie down? 2) What does she do while she is lying down? 3) Does she make unsuccessful attempts to rise and what does that look like? 4) Does she ever get up and down on her own? DrO |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 9:17 am: Thank you all for your responses. Let me try to clarify some of your questions.We have never seen her go down. I am assuming that she lays down to sleep but then can't get up. When she does it outside, the ground is always worked up around her so I think she has been trying to get up, but is unsuccessful. When she is laying down, she lays flat out, or at least that is the way we find her. When she hears us coming, she seems very peaceful but will usually try unsuccessfully to get up once or twice on her own. When she tries to get up from laying flat, she swings her head up, but doesn't seem to be able to get into a sternal position or sitting position on her own and initially we tried to help her to gain this position, but were unsuccessful. I have never seen her thrashing her legs and her eyes always seem focused and watching you, not twitching. Once we roll her over, she lays there, thinks about it for a minute or two, then can usually get into a sitting position followed by standing up. She is usually a bit unsteady for only a step or two and then seems to give us the "Well, what took you so long" look and then wants to eat, pee and poop almost all at once. I don't think she gets up and down on her own. I do not see any of the usual scuff marks or dirt/sawdust on her like you see on horses that have been laying down. After an episode I give her 20 cc's of banamine IV and put her on bute for 3 days -- as well as tending to her rub marks with ointments. For her, bag balm is my ointment of choice as it is nice and thick and stays put. I hope this helps to clarify things. She stayed up last night and dove into her breakfast this morning and trotted out with her team mate. I am so confounded.... |
| Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 9:56 am: Hello Sherry,I think I follow your explanation. Do I have this right? 1) The problem isn't getting up; it's getting from a prostrate or "flat out" position to a sternal position. 2) She appears to get stuck every time she lies prostrate, regardless of anti-inflammatories, resting surface, etc.. If the above are correct, I have a couple of thoughts, in no particular order. Thought A: horses lie down more than most of us realize (I've spent the last 10 nights in my barn, and can vouch for this-- horses that I have never seen down do in fact lie down at 2AM). Many of them are in deep sleep when they are prostrate, and some of them churn their legs (part of REM sleep, we've talked elsewhere about whether they're dreaming). So it's possible that your horse isn't stuck, but just sound asleep. I would test this theory by bedding her in deep shavings for a couple of days, to see whether you find tell-tale shavings in her ears etc. in the morning, and her standing. This may not be likely, and you may be sure I'm wrong, but I had to suggest it. Thought B: Sometimes when horses get stuck, they get up on their own later, even though we think they can't. I've owned one of these. So even though this sounds horrid, it may be worth walking away for a while and watching from a distance, next time you find her down. It may be important for future decision-making to know whether this horse truly is helpless when prostrate. Thought C: full physical exam, with a focus on neurologic/spinal health. Thought D: If it comes down to a situation where she must be prevented from going prostrate, you can take 2 baseballs, sew them each in the toe section of a tube sock, and attach the ball-pouches to a surcingle or overgirth at about 10am and 2pm (looking at the horse from in front as a clock), and have the horse wear it where she would normally wear a girth. That rig will allow her to lie down, but should discourage her from going prostrate. Desperate measures, but they can work. Good luck, and let us know what you find! |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 10:25 am: Thanx Elk for your thoughts and suggestions. The answer would be yes to both of your questions. We know for a fact that she has been down at least 8 hours outside for one instance that a neighbor can document. I truly feel that she cannot get up after laying down when she tries on her own. One of my theories is that she lays down to sleep, may be down for an hour or two and then because of her weight, the limbs on the underside (usually the right side) fall asleep and she can't use them to get up with. That's why when we turn her over and allow the circulation to return, she can get up with just a bit -- 4-5 people and lots of muscle -- of assistance. The drive and the will to get up always seems to be there, but unless we get her to her other side, she doesn't seem to be able help herself up.I would love to put her in a deep bedded stall, but fear that I can't as she might get herself stuck into a position that we would not be able to help her. In our situation for her and as big as she is -- 17 hands and ~2000# -- a field "rescue" goes much easier than a stall rescue. Jesse -- I think I have the concept of your sling. What size are your ratchet straps (I would think the wider the better) and how are you anchoring them -- side of stall? rafters? Sherry |
| Member: mitch316 |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 10:46 am: Sherry, we would anchor them to the top rail of the stall, one on each side. The straps are the standard 3 inch ratchet straps, but you can get them as wide as you can afford at a good hardware store. I don't think I mentioned that we did pad them with blankets, or that this cannot be a very long term thing, as they do need their REM sleep, and if they fall sound asleep in this position, their head will hang, and that could cause some problems, however I have never seen it cause anything.From reading all of this, I think you may just indeed have an arthritis problem and or some nerve weakness as Elk suggested. You may want to have that check out for a pinched nerve, or even a herniated disc (they can be caused by the same thing). What leads me to say arthritis is her stiffness upon rising, which that would indicate, but on the other hand, her inability to rise suggest nerve/muscle problems. I can see how you would be confounded. Really, you can attach the straps to anything that would be sturdy enough to hold her, as long as both ends were the same height and higher than the weight bearing portion. Hope this helps at least a little! |
| Member: stek |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 7:49 pm: I have only seem something similar once, with an older broodmare who was physically unable to get up if she was down for more than 30 minutes or so towards the end of her pregnancies. (if you ask me she should have been retired, but that's another story.)If she was down for longer than that she would require a hoist and several strong arms to get her back up off the ground. This was when I was doing foal watch so the solution was easy .. check her every 15 minutes and make sure she didn't oversleep. Not so easy for you tho... If I'm understanding right though this is just on one side, and if you flip her over she's OK? Personally I would probably lean towards leaving her out where you would have enough room to get her flipped over whenever you find her down. If you have enough room it's pretty easy to flip them once you get the hang of it as I'm sure you've found. The straps to keep her from lying down might be a good short term solution, but I wonder about not allowing her to lie down as a long term solution ... of course if she's out during the day and has the ability to lie down, then that's not an issue. Is there a reason she has to be stalled at night? As far as a cause I can only guess but I would assume as mentioned above some sort of nerve damage... if your vet is confounded I might try a chiropractor or acupuncturist. Doesn't hurt to try! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 10:03 pm: Sherry is it possible since your horse is a draft that she has ESPM? I know from doing a little research on it trouble rising is one symptom.Here is the list of symptoms from rural heritage if you have never visited it. Notice the last symptom... They don't necesssarily have to have them all to be afflicted. Trembling, especially after exercise. Difficulty rising, backing, or reluctance to back. Lack of energy. Poor performance. Reluctance to pick up feet for shoeing. Lifting or "stomping" of hind limb or limbs, especially while standing. Episodes of colic, especially after exercise. Slightly stiff, awkward, or short strided hind limb gait (often with no hock action). Tying up. Lying down suddenly, unable to rise. Affected draft horses may appear completely normal for many years. Although EPSM may result in slightly abnormal blood levels of muscle enzymes, some EPSM horses have normal muscle enzyme levels. Diagnosis is best made by examining a muscle biopsy for the characteristic changes. The biopsy is taken while the horse is standing and sedated, and the site of the biopsy (the muscle of the caudal rump) is injected with local anesthetic. Taking a biopsy is a simple procedure that results in minimal scarring. Testing your horses for EPSM provides valuable, perhaps life saving, information This is also from Dr. Valentines site....PLEASE,PLEASE note I am not in anyway saying she has this it could be many things...but may be worth looking into. The most devastating problem, seen almost exclusively in drafts, is a sudden development of severe muscle weakness or damage, such that the horse is unable to rise. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 8:05 am: Thanks Sherrywe do have a much better idea of what's going on. It does sound like she has problems rising and while I can think of a explaination of why she needs to be turned I am uncertain if this is a primary or secondary problem. It is possible being down on one side causes the muscles of the down side to go to sleep and then the muscles loose their ability to upright the horse. If you carefully watch a horse going from flat out to sternal, first the horse raises the neck and then extends and plants the underside legs to bring the a horse upriht to the sternally laying down position. Once he is flipped the underside muscles are fine and the horse able to rise. The question I cannot answer from the available information is this a primary problem due to size and age or is it secondary to:
DrO |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 8:41 am: Hi all,Thank you for your continuing thoughts on Ms. Judy. I had considered EPSM at one point, but it was very far down on my list for her as she shows none of the other signs (thank goodness), but without absolute proof (muscle biopsy) we can't truly rule that out either. She is not overweight. She seems to have a pretty high metabolism for a draft and is more spirited than most (as some percherons can be I'm told). I have been trying to work to keep her in good condition this winter as each episode seems to take a bit out of her. She had her teeth done this fall also (they weren't bad). She gets a combination of soaked beet pulp, soaked alfalfa pellets, a bit of sweet feed (my own mix that is mostly oats and beet pulp, bit of corn, vitamin E and selenium and a touch of molasses to help stick the vit E/sel), her supplements and all the hay she can eat. I normally stall all my horses at night until the weather starts to get to that 40+ degrees at night. It's probably more for my benefit and peace of mind than their's. But Michigan weather right now is so unpredictable (still at the freezing point overnight) and with most of the horses having lost their winter hair and with these drizzly rains, I don't want them getting a chill. If she goes out during the day and the weather prediction is cold and/or rainy, she gets a lightweight, waterproof blanket on before she goes out for the day. I also feel with all the mud, it's best if the horse's feet have a chance to dry out at least overnight. It looks like the weather might be breaking by the weekend though, and then all of the horses will be staying out. If I have to, I can put her and her team mate into a smaller holding area overnight instead of in her stall. At this point, we just don't know how much more we can financially afford to spend on her. I am grateful that I can do a lot of her treatments myself which saves the budget a bit. My plan for the next couple of weeks for her will be the following (and please let me know if this sounds reasonable): 1) get her outside as much as possible, even in the evenings when the weather will permit 2) start slowly with training exercises to help build her hind quarter muscles -- free longing so she can pick her own pace (start at 5 -10 minutes and gradually work up), do some backing exercises with her, back her up a small hill a few times each session if she is capable 3) continue with her vitamin E and selenium supplements And basically see how she responds. If anyone has any additional suggestions, please feel free to send them along. I won't push her to the point of getting tired (heaven knows I don't need to add that to her symptoms), but just enough to help warm up those muscles and start strengthening them again. |
| Member: astbury |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 9:45 am: Probably totally irrelevant but just spotted the "every three weeks or so". If there is a definite pattern in terms of timescale, could there be something which occurs every three weeks which precipitates the problem. Can't for the life of me think of anything which would, but mention it just in case.In any event, Sherry, hope you get improvements quickly. Jenny |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 10:20 am: My initial thought on the "every 3 weeks" was that maybe it could be timed into her cycles somehow but she should not normally have been cycling for some of those winter months. She does tend to have more silent cycles, but I'm still having trouble trying to tie the two together. Side note -- I have not seen her come into cycle this year yet, but some of my younger mares (Morgans and a Percheron) are already cycling. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 7:40 am: From a diagnostic standpoint I think you first have to discover the symptom before you diagnose the disease: laying down and not getting back up is not really a symptom. But the base cause (pain, weakness, or incoordination) that causes the inability to rise would be the symptom.I am interested in one aspect of the feeding program you outline. What Vitamin E/Se supplement are you using, what is it's composition (percent active ingredient), and how much do you feed? DrO |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 8:14 am: I cannot seem to pinpoint any painful areas as in her back or joints. She does not seem to be arthritic and her movement seems free. I have tried to get her off balance -- pulling her tail right/left side while she is walking -- and she compensates well. Her vitamin E and Selenium supplement is called Vita E & Selenium Crumbles. She gets one half ounce daily which puts the selenium at 1 mg/day and vitamin E at 625 I.U./day. So far she seems to be recovering well from her last episode. Michigan is still having its ups and downs with the weather and temperature. Days with showers and mid 40's she goes out with a rain sheet on to help her preserve her calories. They have good quality round bales in their feeders right now so everyone is getting all they could possibly want as well as starting to nibble on the pasture grasses that are trying to get started.Sorry for the delay in responding. Hard to get the internet connection at home! Thank you all again for all your time and suggestions. It's hard right now to spend more $$$ on her to get a more thorough exam with muscle biopsies, more blood work, chiropractor, etc. If we had the extra cash we would surely do whatever we could for her. As for right now, I want to try exhaust all my own possibilities first. Thanx for hanging in there with us and trying to help! Sherry |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 8:30 pm: Sherry are there any other sources of selenium in the diet, like a trace mineral salt block? As you probably are aware MI is one of the states that is pretty consistently low in Se. NRC requirements, now considered a bit low, but adequate are 0.1 ppm of the diet. If your horse weighs 1500 lbs feed consumptions should be around 15 kilos daily. 0.1 ppm would translate to 1.5 mg. As I do the calculations I think this is not likely to be a problem but one of the first things seen with selenium deficiency might well be muscle weakness and pain. A heavy older mare with increase anti-oxidant needs and the already low recommendations these calculations are based on does not leave it out however.DrO |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 9:01 am: Thanx Dr. O,All the horses do have access to a TM block and they get 1/2 # VitE (20K/#) and 1/2# Selenium (90 units/lb) added to 500# of feed. My feed mix is 300# oats, 100# cracked corn, 200# shredded beet pulp, the vitamin E and selenium as above, and wet molasses to help it all stick together. Judy gets a full scoop (regular plastic square grain scoop, sorry don't know the #'s it holds) grain and a full scoop of Purina Senior 2x/day plus all the hay she can eat. They all have free access to water too -- water trough and creek. Not crazy about them drinking the creek water as it runs through several farmers fields before it gets to our house, but we would have to fence it off to keep them out of it (which would equal a couple of miles of fencing). So far she has gone a week now w/o another episode. My next concern with her will be covering her wounds to keep the flies away as Michigan is supposed to have better temperatures for the later part of the week. I'm most concerned about her knee and ankle rubs so my plan is to use stockinette placed over telfa pads. I plan on holding the stockinette in place with loose tape above and below each joint. And the saga continues...... Thanx again to everyone for their thoughts and suggestions! Sherry |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 6:57 am: Ladyhawk, what is a unit of Se? Minerals are usually measured by weight. Also is the TM block for low selenium areas? I believe but it needs to be checked those blocks are blue. And how quickly do how many horses go through it?DrO |
| Member: sherryw |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 7:31 am: Dr. O,I must have misinterpreted the selenium. As written for the amount added to my feed mixture it only says 90/#. I had interpreted that to be 90 units. Sorry for the confusion. I was unaware of the blue blocks and don't believe I have seen them but I will inquire at our local feed stores and at Tractor Supply. The mineral block we use is a red TM block. It takes 12 horses about 6 weeks to go through one. |
| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 8:15 am: Dr.O - Are you sure about the color of the TM blocks - Here in Idaho the blocks with selenium are yellow - the blue blocks have cobalt added - do they also have added selenium?Thanks, Cheryl |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 7:35 am: Hello Ladyhawk,because we don't know what the selenium content of the feed is I would not recommend you go to extra supplementation until you figure out how much they are getting now. I was trying to get an idea if the selenium was adequate but it takes figuring out how much the horse is getting in the diet. Hello Cheryl, our area does not need special supplementation so all I ever get to see is white and plain red which is why I asked her to double check the information. To get a better handle on this I went to Tractor Supply sight and this is what I found:
DrO |
| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 9:21 am: Dr. O - I just smacked myself on the back of my head - I did not read the label. I was told they had the added selenium blocks - period - one place does carry plain white also - I will read the label on one next time I go to town. I purchased a cobalt block years ago for Fox when she had EPM can't remember what Vet suggested it only that EPM horses were low in cobalt. It was BLUE - the blocks I'm feeding now are yellow. Thank you for going to all this trouble - It's so nice to know I can ask a question here and end up with a correct answer or the place to find the correct answer Cheryl |
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