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| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot » |
| Discussion on Lame/ horn wall is peeling off? | |
| Author | Message |
| New Member: jsams |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 6:57 pm: I called the vet and he doesn't know what the problem is? He said he will do some research and get back to me. It is not founder. This is a donkey and the simptums started with the left front hoof. The first sign was a patch about the size of a quarter that appeared round and as if someone had taken a nail and scrapped groves in the horn starting about half way down the wall. She appeared to be off on the leg sometimes and sometimes limping. Nothing regular. I cleaned and watched. No heat, no swelling. The limp became worse so the blacksmith cut out the place and trimmed. She seemed better. Then 3 more places appeared on each of her other hooves. One on each hoof exterior. First the spot is small and appears yellow and small, then it enlarges and the first layer of the horn lifts up and starts to peel away. Now she is limping on both front legs. The vet examined her and said she is not overweight..has grass belly. Other vitals are normal. No pulsing at the area above the hoof. Thats why he ruled out founder. Does anyone know what this might be. |
| Member: gingin |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 7:05 pm: Hello Joyce, can you please send pictures of her hooves and these lesions?Christine |
| New Member: jsams |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 7:09 pm: I will have to do that tomorrow, its almost dark now. Have you ever seen anything like this. To me it must be systemic since it is on all four hoof exterior walls. |
| New Member: jsams |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 7:13 pm: It isn't from water or a dirty barn. The vet checked all that. I keep everything clean and standing water free. |
| Member: gingin |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 9:16 pm: Not sure, Joyce. Where are you located? Is she on any supplements? What does her hair coat and mane/tail hair look like? The closest I have come to something like this is chronic selenium toxicity....Dr. O. would know better, though and pictures would help. Looking forward to seeing them tomorrow. Christine |
| New Member: jsams |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 9:30 pm: Christine, Sweet Pea still has her winter coat which she is shedding now. It took along time last year for her to shed. Everything looks normal. Lots of hair. She keeps my mare company. The only thing about feeding is I don't give supplements, I feed alfalfa hay 1/3 to 2/3 orchid grass. The vet said no more alfalfa for her. I also (before this) gave her about a 1/2 quart of sweet feed (10%) every morning. The vet said no more sweet feed either. Thats why I thought initially she was foundered. |
| New Member: jsams |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 9:33 pm: Oh, Christine, I live in Maryland along the Charles Co., St. Mary's County boarder in Charlotte Hall. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 12:42 am: Just off the top of my head, fungus comes to mind, but pictures would help. The other thing that comes to mind is either a deficiency or too much of some mineral maybe. I know donkeys don't need much quality feed and have different requirements than horses. Maybe some blood work to test her selenium and other levels would help.I hope you get it figured out! I'm partial to donkeys and burros. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 5:55 am: Welcome Joyce,I am having a hard time picturing what you are trying to describe and exactly what the farrier cut out. Though the veterinarian may not know the cause he should have been able to accurately describe the changes: did he leave any notes? As Sara notes, selenium deficiency or chronic over supplementation can cause shelly hooves with poor quality horn for more on this see Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Selenium in Horses. However at this time I think a good overall look at possible causes so as not to overlook anything is a good idea, for more on poor quality horn see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Wall Cracks and Thin Sensitive Soles. Be sure your photos are well lit with the light coming from behind the photographer and the images of the lesions as big as possible but still in good focus. DrO |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 3:55 pm: Picture: I hope this helps.
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| Member: jsams |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 3:58 pm: Another Picture: This is how it starts, see the yellow around it. First there is yellow, then the peeling of the exterior horn.
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| Member: mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 6:12 pm: This is different than I pictured it and I've never seen anything quite like it. I notice, however, the donkey is standing in clover. What kind of clover is it? Is he on it very often/very long at a time? |
| Member: gingin |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 6:46 pm: Hmm....this somewhat reminds me of white line diseases in a mare I used to take care off...the lesions also started with hollow hoof (I suspect this is what you see as a "yellow area" first) and the the hoof would peel off in layers. Also, the consistency of the horn, as it looks in the pictures, also reminds me of white line disease....Can you take pics of the bottom of the hoof to see what the connection between the sole and outer wall may look like? Or better, when your farrier is out next, ask him/her about white line disease and what he thinks. How long has this been going on and has your donkey been evaluated for potential cushings disease?Christine |
| Member: mitch316 |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 7:02 pm: It seems like I remember a specific kind of fungus that causes "sloughing: of the outer hoof. I would think that white line peels from the other direction, but I am not all together sure on that one. We had a welsh pony do something similar that was fixed with shoes (we never shod the ponies). Joyce, does the part that peels off have a smell to it? (other than normal) And, does the foot feel kinda oily when you touch it? |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 9:38 pm: White line disease is the first question I asked my blacksmith. He said no. That was 4 weeks ago at trimming. The other 3 hooves only had small yellow spots, now you see the size of them. |
| Member: gingin |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 9:15 am: hmmm......that is strange....Joyce, do you mind if I cross-post your issue on another site that is specifically for farriers and veterinarians who deal with hoof/leg issues (I will not mention your name) to see what they think?Christine |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 9:44 am: Christine thank you. I'm looking for help! I don't care about whether you use my name or not.
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| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 10:01 am: Joyce that is quite remarkable and not much like anything I have seen before. Someone needs to take some samples of freshly diseased areas for bacterial and fungal assessment.Treatment should be aimed at removing all diseased horn and then treating the remaining healthy horn with a broad spectrum antimicrobial, I would suggest formalin as it gets both bacteria and funguses and there are no resistant organisms. The feet should be kept absolutely clean and dry and parings should be carefully disposed of not to contaminate the environment. Lastly your farrier needs to sanitize his tools following there use on these burros. You should still double check the nutrition of these guys but the bottom up appearance and focal nature argues against it just a little bit. DrO |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 2:02 pm: Dr.O, My donkey has been on 1/2 tablet of bute twice daily since Monday. Stiffness in her legs seems to be getting worse. She had been laying down in the field all morning and when she got up, her back legs as well as her front legs almost gave way. She limped on both front and back legs. She seems to get better as she walks around, but only a little. Could this hoof thing be a side effect of something else. She is only 2 years old and healthy otherwise. The limping started on the LF went to the RF and now seems to be in both back feet now. |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 3:18 pm: I just called poison control (the number listed on this site) and described the donkeys simptoms and they said it wasn't plant related. They said they will work with my vet and try and figure it out. |
| Member: gingin |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 4:44 pm: Hello Joyce, can you please send me the pictures by E-mail so that I can put them on an accessible web album for cross posting, or do you already have a site I can refer people to?? If not, my address is jnksize@comcast.net.If you can take/post more photos of her hooves, the whole animal would be helpful as well. Christine |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 6:45 pm: Hi Christine, I just sent photo's. I'll take more tomorrow. Let me know if you don't get them. e-mail:joycesams@mris.com |
| Member: mitch316 |
Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 11:14 pm: Christine, I called an old vet that treated our welsh pony mentioned above. He said it was a "nail fungus" like humans get. It is a total different species than the fungus that causes thrush. He said to take a sample and examine it under a microscope. He said any vet should be able to do this. He said it would be "an obvious fungal wall, but different in appearance" than common fungus. He also echoed Dr. O's advice above about cross contamination. He did add that he thought the only lab that could test for this specific fungus is Texas A&M, and that it is a "reportable" infection, and that oral antifungals for twelve weeks, in addition to the paring of the hoof, should clear it up. He has been in practice for 50 years and seen two cases. One was our welsh pony, and another was a mule. it is not common, and unless a farrier or vet has seen it, would probably not know what it is. Said we got lucky. Like I said, we pared the hoof, packed with tinactin, and used shoes to hold it all together.But your best bet is to get it looked at under a microscope to first confirm that it is indeed a fungus. Oral antifungals have too many side effects (in my opinion) to treat unless absolutely needed, but Dr. O may disagree with that. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, May 2, 2009 - 7:28 am: Jesse the nail fungus of horses is commonly referred to as White Line Disease or lately onchyomycosis and does not typically look like the above case: the defect in the wall appears a bit more superficial than the junction of the insensitive laminae. We have had numerous cases described on this site and I have two in my practice right now.That said, I believe burros predisposed somewhat and not all diseases look the same in all animals. If it does turn out to be onchyomycosis the treatment outlined above is what I would prescibe. However I think other possibilities need continued pursuit so nothing overlooked. Joycer as to whether this disease is causing the lameness or associated it in some other fashion I do not know. If the defects are reaching down to sensitive tissue, yes that would set up a infection that would be painful. This is a question definately for the examining veterinarian. DrO |
| Member: mitch316 |
Posted on Saturday, May 2, 2009 - 3:43 pm: Dr. O, Dr. Stevens was pretty adamant that what he was describing was not onchyomycosis. Unfortunately, at 83, he could not remember the name of the organism. Also, I thought white line would peel from the other direction?? Might be different in donkeys...One thing I did not ask Christine was whether the hoof wall was very soft with a sweet/rotten smell to it. I tried to find different fungus's that would infect horses feet, but could not find anything. Dr. Stevens has probably forgotten a whole lot more than we will ever know in 50 years of practice, but still, I am thinking he may have this mixed up with a fungus that infects sheep and pigs...dunno, but I hope to call him again today, but he is extremely hard to get in touch with. But, wouldn't it be fairly simple to look at the sample under a scope to see if a fungal wall is present? That way treatment could begin while awaiting the lab results naming the culprit. If it is causing lameness, I would think that the sooner treatment can begin, the better. |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Saturday, May 2, 2009 - 8:48 pm: Thank you everybody!!!I talked to my vet today and he hasn't found anything yet and has called the vets at Virginia Tech to see if they have any info. I still think this might be systemic because she was so lame in both front and very stiff in the rear. I'm continuing with the bute and now keeping her in a dry lot for 12 hours and in my ring with some grass for 12 hours. I found a small choke cherry growing just beside my dry lot that she had been chewing on. I called poisen control and they said they didn't think that could be the problem, but wouldn't rule it out. Sweet Pea is now under constant supervision by me and has no way to get anything other than what I give her. Cut that choke cherry down today and was careful to get up every leaf. |
| Member: mitch316 |
Posted on Sunday, May 3, 2009 - 12:56 am: Joyce, thanks for the update. Please keep us informed so we can put this in the "lesson learned" category! Praying that Sweet Pea makes a full recovery! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, May 3, 2009 - 5:57 am: The problem Jesse is when tissues become unhealthy all sorts of things start growing secondary making it hard to know what started the problem and what took advantage of it. However it is the place to start the investigation. Just looking at it under a micorscope will not likely show much it takes special preparation (microtome at the least to get a thin enough slice that light will go through it) and possibly staining to get the best look.Joyce have you begun investigating possible systemic causes like nutrition and toxins? How about local treatment of the hooves? DrO |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Sunday, May 3, 2009 - 10:06 pm: Dr.O, I have sweet pea isolated toxin wise and am continuing with benedine on the exterior of the hoof and over the frog area. The problem is now she won't let me clean her hoofs as well as she used to. I think everything hurts on her and standing on three legs really hurts. She is about 600 pounds (according to the vet) and she is alot to wrestle with. According to poisen control I should see a change in 7 to 10 days if the choke cherry is a toxin problem. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 8:50 am: Choke cherry (Prunus species) causes a cyanide poisoning when wilted leaves are ingested. So the symptoms would not be consistent with what you are seeing.Concerning sweet pea (Lathyrus odoratus): which toxin has been isolated from where? Also where would your horse have come into contact with lots of sweet pea seeds? Horse poisoning from sweet pea is apparently quite rare as I cannot isolate any indivirual reports. I can find second hand reports that it appears hind limb incoordination is a primary sign. It is also associated with bone deformity and degenerative changes in blood vessels. I do not find hoof problems as a symptom. So why would you suspect sweet pea? Was your horse exposed to a large amount of sweet pea seeds? If this is a infection the most important step is removing the infected horn. See post above. If lameness is becoming a major problem having it diagnosed as to the cause (not apparent in these posts yet) is an important first step. In the mean time phenylbutazone should be considered for comfort sake. DrO |
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 9:30 am:  (((((((((Dr. O.))))))))) . . . lol . . . Donkey's name is "Sweet Pea." 
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| Member: erika |
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 1:30 pm: Ha ha ha! Thanks for a much needed laugh today over the Sweat Pea!Joyce, I hope you get some answers soon. Sounds quite baffling, not to mention painful. Erika |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 2:03 pm: Dr.O, Sorry for the confusion, Sweet Pea is the donkey's name. The choke cherry is my suspected toxin Poisoning. The donkey has been away from the choke cherry since saturday morning. Today, it may be my imagination but she seems less stiff, especially in the rear. Poison control told me they don't have any record of green choke cherry leaves and branches causing toxin problems, but they wouldn't rule it out. The donkey is really giving me problems cleaning her feet. I couldn't because now when I pick up her front feet she lifts both front putting her whole weight on me. I know she hurts. The blacksmith is coming tomorrow and I'll collect some samples. All I need to know is where to send them??? Dr.O, any ideas. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 8:42 pm: Wow, and I had my 5th cup of coffe by that time. I thought two words had been transposed and read it: "sweet pea toxin isolated". It does explain what was a very confusing post when I read it.Joyce, while "Sweet Pea" may be better, choke cherry does not cause hoof horn problems, stiffness, and lameness. It causes an inability for the body to process oxygen and therfore create: weakness, coma, and death are the symptoms. None of your symptoms are consistent with this. It is true the green leaves do not cause poisoning. When the leave wilt the toxin is formed. DrO |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 2:02 pm: Dr.O, the donkey is better today. Not well, but her hind legs don't seem to be stiff and the limping in the front is less. Her attitude is better and she is not laying down in the field as much. I just remembered that I had a girl friend that lost her horse due to kidney failure because a stick from a cherry tree got lodged in her throat apparently producing toxins to shut down her kidney's. I will keep you updated. |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 5:12 pm: Dr.O, Good News!!My Vet Dr. Benedict called his professor at VA TECH Dr. Scarret,and he said he had seen this before. It looks like peeling paint on the exterior hoof wall and a low grade laminitis. It is caused by the Black Walnut tree. Not so much eating it, but when the walnuts fall to the ground and we have a lot of rain it causes the toxin from the nuts to leach into the ground causing the problem. He said not to cut it out, but let it grow out and keep her on bute. The donkey (sweet pea) liked to make her nest on the gound under the walnut tree, which was on the outside of the fenced area. I'll get busy cutting down the tree and the 20 or so others around my fence line. You never know what can make your animals sick. I'd read that Walnuts were toxic to animals, but knew they couldn't get to any of mine. I never thought about the nuts.
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| Member: jsams |
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 5:24 pm: Dr.O, By the way, Dr. Scarret from VA Tech said he guaranteed this was the problem. I'm so happy!!!!! |
| Member: erika |
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 5:25 pm: Holy Crow! Who would think it would rear its ugly head in spring! I have lots of walnut trees around my pastures. I thought I only had to be vigilant in the fall when the nuts and leaves fall.They are such stately huge trees. Hate to cut them all down. I wonder if just keeping debris cleaned up will be enough? I gotta look into this further. My mare has a laminitis history and it has almost always happened in early fall--coincidentally just when the leaves and nuts are everywhere! Glad Sweet Pea is on the mend. Thanks for posting that Joyce. Boy, you never know what you'll learn here! Erika |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:11 pm: Hi Erika, apparently it is the nuts leaching their toxin in the ground that mostly causes this. So if you keep everything cleaned up, especially the nuts you should be ok. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 - 12:29 am: Joyce, I hate to keep being the contrarian voice but I have seen several black walnut poisonings (founder from standing on the shavings) and I have never seen it effect the horn of the hooves in this manner. You may get rings forming at the coronet but not what your image shows above. I have gone and checked several references to see if others report these type changes and I cannot find any source that discusses it.That is not to say the lameness might not be due to black walnuts but even your description of back leg stiffness does not really sound like founder which usually is a front leg stiffness. By all means if there is exposure to black walnuts consider removal but you should note in heavily contaminated ground the toxin, jugalone, can be persistent. DrO |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 - 11:05 am: Dr.O, the donkey is much better today, only limping a little on the Lfront. Attitude is good. Maybe the problem was Black Walnut toxin together with choke cherry leaves and branches. Whatever it was he now can't get to either, contaminated ground or leaves and branches of the cherry and she is getting better in only 5 days. This donkey will eat anything. Yesterday, I brushed both my donkey and horse out in the pasture and when I finished she reached down and eat her own hair. Believe me, the donkey has plenty to eat without all this other stuff. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, May 7, 2009 - 8:37 am: Joyce I am delighted to hear the horse is doing better but in the interest of accurate assessment, these two toxins have entirely different modes of action and it seems unlikely the combination can cause the degeneration of the horn in the above pictures. I continue to maintain the light color around the defects looks most like a infection but this is not definite.DrO |
| Member: jsams |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 11:01 am: DrO, today is the 8th day of my donkey being away from all trees and on bute 1/2 tablet twice a day. I found where she had been chewing on young walnut trees. Also her legs had swelling and I never realized it. Now I can see her tendons and how small her legs really are. She was so young when I got her I didn't know how she would mature. Her joints are also smaller. There was never any heat in her legs, they were solid, thats why with all the hair I couldn't tell how swollen she was. Anyway (Sweet Pea) my donkey is much better. Walking a lot better, hardly any limp, attitude much better. I'll give another update in five days. Thank you DrO for helping. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:00 pm: Thanks for the update. This really started with problems of the hoof horn. How are the lesions on the horn of the hooves doing?DrO |
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