|
|
Discussion on Does mild laminitis always return?
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Sunday, May 3, 2009 - 5:03 pm:
Titan is an 8 year old quarter horse. In Jan. or Feb./08 he may have had a mild episode of laminitis. My vet (whom I fired when she refused to come out when he had a more painful laminitis episode in July/08), said that in the winter it was likely his front feet hurt from the frozen ground. My farrier, who is excellent, thought this was likely a laminitis episode and not from the frozen ground. In July/08, Titan had a more definite laminitis episode - this is when the vet refused to come out and finally came out when I called back and she got rude with me. My farrier rushed out from quite a distance to be there for me. Titan had no rotation of his coffin bone and was much improved the next day. He had 3 sets of x-rays. His laminitis was classified as very mild. Since then he has lost 100 lbs. (he was not fat to begin with but it was recommended he lose weight). He wears a muzzle when there is grass in the field. At his last trimming the old damaged hoof had finally grown out. Yesterday my farrier came and she found blood at the front of both hooves. He had been wearing heartbar shoes since the July/08 episode as he had thin walls and no heel support as I recall - they made him more comfortable - before that, he had regular shoes on the front. Yesterday, my farrier said that he had had a laminitis episode recently nobody noticed because he was not lame and now he was back in the recovery phase. She removed his shoes and suggested I get on him in the ring only and walk. He had a couple of stumbles out to the ring - mild stumbles. I got on him. He felt fine - had one little stumble. He seemed comfortable. It was just a 10-minute walk (I should say he loves being ridden). When I put him back out in the field, he moved normally and seemed perfectly comfortable without shoes. My farrier said this laminitis episode was very mild.
My question is whether he will always have recurrences of founder? He is on all kinds of supplements including a hoof supplement. Interestingly, my vet came out to give him and my other horse their West Nile and tetanus vaccinations. She also is testing Titan for equine metabolic synDrOme although she thought he was a bit young and did not appear to be tye type to have it - but we are having him tested. She said Titan's weight was perfect. This was Easter Monday. We had no idea that he was having a laminitis episode. I got the impression she thought he should not be wearing shoes. When my farrier came yesterday, she agreed so now he does not have shoes and seems comfortable. I will go and see him again today to check on him.
But my big question is will he always have recurrences of laminitis and is there anything I can do about it.
By the way Dr. O, I've read your articles on founder/laminitis which are excellent.
Thanks.
Janice
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Sunday, May 3, 2009 - 7:25 pm:
Janice FME many things can cause a little blood (bruising at the toe) other than laminitis. So personally I wouldn't take that as a sign he had another laminitis attack.
Horses that founder usually are more prone to it. Your horse had a very mild episode, and with the way your management sounds he should be fine.
If he's comfortable barefoot, I would leave him that way. He may have been a bit trippy at first because he wasn't used to having the shoes off. Hank just got his on for the summer and he tripped a couple times until he got used to them.
Congrats on Titans recovery and your great management!
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 3:22 am:
Thanks Diane. If Internet Explorer doesn't crash I will try to upload some photos - maybe one at a time.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 3:32 am:
The first photo is I think his worst foot - his left front foot. Here if I can upload it is his right front foot.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 3:57 am:
Closer view of front of left front I think
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 4:02 am:
Let's re-do that one - I made it too small.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 4:12 am:
Here is his right foot
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 4:21 am:
Here's his left foot
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 4:23 am:
Sorry - I am not very good at uploading photos yet. The next message will show the last one I think - of Titan in the field so you can see how his weight is. The vet thought he was perfect.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 4:28 am:
Titan in field
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 4:37 am:
So the question remains - why would he have blood in the front of both front feet. About a week ago he refused to take one of his leads at the canter. But I am just learning to canter on his - he is so bouncy and my aids may not be great plus he does not always listen to me - so that could or could not be a sign of pain. Yet he was trotting normally. He had shoes on so, of course, the blood could not be seen. Is it possible, like Diane says, that it might not be another episode of laminitis? My farrier thought it it was just one foot, it could be from hitting it on something but with 2 feet, it was likely laminitis. But by the time she did his feet and decided to remove his shoes, any laminitis episode was over and the bad hoof was growing out.
So could it be something other than laminitis. And if it was another case of mild laminitis, is it possible that at some point he could stop getting episodes of laminitis - unless it wasn't laminitis at all.
Today I led him across the field to the ring and even though there were pebbles on the ground, his stride seemed the same and he did not stumble. I handwalked him in the ring for 10 minutes and his stride was normal and he never stumbled once. Afterwards, he followed me around the field when I tried to get a photo of him. But I noticed when he came into the barn for the evening, although his stride was normal, he did not seem to be in pain but he was tentative about putting his front feet down like they felt different to him without shoes. He seemed fine walking on the cement in the barn though.
So does anyone have any ideas what is going on and if it is laminitis, will he get recurrences for his entire life?
Thanks.
Janice
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 7:36 am:
I don't believe it likely that without pain that you can diagnose founder and mild founders don't typically cause bleeding. As Diane says, you often find a reddening of the horn on white footed horses often with no history of problems. I presume when you say you found blood in the foot some of the horn on the sole was red. Exactly which part was red?
As to whether a horse that has had one episode of founder must have recurring episodes? The answer is no not if the cause is addressed effectively.
DrO
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 12:48 pm:
Thanks Dr. O. I do not know what I would do without you.
When Diane speaks, I listen.
Titan had a thin red streak of what I recall was bright red at the front of the bottom of each front hoof - I'm no vet but I think it was by the white line. Of course, you cannot see a thing in the photos I posted even though I tried to brush off his feet.
When he had his obvious episode of founder in July, 2008, I did everything recommended. He had more shavings put in his stall. At first my vet refused to come out then I called back and she got rude and came out and gave him some banamine (I fired here shortly thereafter). I consulted an equine nutritionist and my farrier agreed with his recommendations - vitamin E, flax, hoof supplement, biochrome and magnesium oxide plus reduced hay. I bought some thick stemmed first cut hay so he could have some additional hay to munch on that I was told did not have much nutrition in it and was thick stemmed. Titan started getting a small amount of "no grain" grain every day called "all phase lite" that has absolutely no grain in it. He lost about 100 lbs. He is still on that "no grain" grain and still gets the supplements daily. He started to wear a muzzle when he was turned out (he ripped through all of them except the orange plastic one he is wearing in the photo. He wears the muzzle whenever he goes out on fresh grass and even not-so-fresh grass - like spring and summer and likely part of fall. I did notice some tiny pieces of new grass a couple of weeks ago so I should have put his muzzle on him as soon as it popped up but didn't notice it before. The field has little grass in it and what does grow is short except there is more in the riding ring but of course he has his muzzle on so what he gets it restricted. He is certainly wearing his muzzle now.
I like the idea that without shoes I can see what is going on on the bottom of his feet. So far, I think he will do fine with no shoes. I think he finds the lack of added height a bit different but his stride is normal and there is no tripping and no reluctance to move. He seems happy.
Janice
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Monday, May 4, 2009 - 6:48 pm:
One more thing Dr. O - Titan doesn't have white feet - he has brown feet. Were you referring to the white bottom of his hooves?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 7:05 am:
I was writing about horses in general. It is very easy to pick up the reddening in nonpigmented horn so often noted.
DrO
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:41 am:
Thanks Dr. O. Interestingly, my hard-keeper now 26-year-old thoroughbred, Abe, had pink indications of blood for about 5 years when he used to get his feet trimmed (it could have been my old farrier trimming him too close but he usually was fine to ride and sound after his feet were done and the farrier seemed well thought of). However, he never had signs of founder.
An equine nutritionist has suggested that Titan's laminitis episode of July 2008 was aggravated by too much work but Titan has had no training by my trainer since the episode of July 2008 and only light riding - once a week I'd ride for about 20 minutes but just lightly because I was just getting back to it (I've had 2 hip resurfacings in 2006 and 2007 which is like hip replacements - I think there were months where I did not get on him. The lady who runs the place took him out a couple of weeks ago for one road and trail ride and I took him part way up the road 2 times over the past 4 weeks. Initially after what was obvious founder in July 2008, Titan stayed in the riding ring with his muzzle on after the July 2008 incident on hog fuel for quite a while and finally he got turned out with the other 4 or so horses - the vet said it was a "very" mild case of laminitis - he seemed sound in about 3 days and there was no rotation that showed up on the x-rays. But the equine nutritionist said:
"This horse needs a full year to grow out from a laminitis problem. The problem is that the laminae only knit together properly from the top down. This is the only area that actually is healing properly i.e. the coronary band generates new growth that is correct. I think what you have seen is the deceptive early “so-called curing” of founder. What you actually were seeing is the “lamellar wedge’ or scar tissue that forms underneath the hoof wall. It actually seems to be holding the hoof together and the horse walks around looking reasonably sound. Then the temptation is to put the horse back to work a bit early and next thing you know, the hoof wall gets pulled out a bit and you now get what you see. There is fairly severe damage if blood is present...
... I suggest you talk to your vet because I suggest you stop riding and training the horse totally for a year. Make a mark at the coronary band at the top, and until the mark comes down to the final ground line, and until the white line looks very tight and normal, then you and your vet and farrier decide if he can go back to a slow build up level of training and conditioning to work."
This scared me half to death. I thought I had hurt Titan. I was so careful to follow my new vet's and my wonder farrier's instructions re any riding and working up slowly (he never got worked up to a normal length or normal strenuous ride yet). I am having the vet (after I fired the one who initially said in July/08 she would come out if it were "serious" without even looking at Titan) do x-rays just to be safe.
Titan is getting used to having no shoes after about 3 years of shoes so I would think he would feel a bit odd - but his stride is normal and he does not stumble.
The nutritionist really scared me.
You can see the photos I posted and I expect you would notice if there was anything obvious indicating founder (even without x-rays). I did everything that was recommended but now I think I might have ruined him. I know my vet will call me once the x-rays are done.
I should say he has much thicker soles than he had when I got him and much thicker walls but he might still have fairly thin soles compared to other horses - that is just a guess and maybe that could cause blood at the front of the front feet after a trim. My farrier trims about 80-90 horses who have no shoes so is well experienced. She has been excellent. And Titan loves to be ridden, especially outside of the ring.
But I've just been going out of my mind - couldn't sleep - thought he was in a serious condition, although he seems fine and thought I ruined Titan for life.
Janice
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 2:31 pm:
Janice, one reason for the reddish streaks could be that the white line got a little stretched between trims/shoeings. You would notice it them when the farrier cuts off the surface area. Maybe try closer appointments to keep any flare from developing. Just a thought.
I think the nutritionist was quite conservative. If it has been since July with the founder,and the horse is acting sound, he's probably fine with activity. If your case was mild, without rotation he should have enough attachment to keep stable, I would think.
Such a terrible condition. We fight it here constantly to keep my older mare from relapsing. Sounds like you are doing a good management job to me.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 4:33 pm:
Thanks Erika. On the photos, on one foot it looks like the white line is a bit separated but not on the other. As a vet I cannot tell. I've gone through a lot psychologically since July/07 and riding Titan the brief times I did was my salvation. I've had 2 hip replacements and he is a perfectly safe horse. The thought of not riding him for a year has brought back a lot of the depression.
My vet is away this week but another vet is coming on Thursday to do x-rays. He had no rotation after the July/08 episode and in 3 days was much better. The vet I ended up firing said it was a very mild episode of laminitis and I think my wonderful farrier agreed. Now the nutritionist is saying it was likely a lot more serious than anyone thought. I am so confused and so worried and can barely wait for Thursday to get the x-rays done. I so hope their is no rotation.
I, as a non-vet, feel that he must be more comfortable without shoes putting pressure on his feet.
Janice
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 5:58 pm:
Janice here is the way I look at it, Hank had a bad founder. It took a couple years to get him "back to normal" and I'm happy.
If Titan has been sound since last July or August...things are good! If he happens to have some rotation now, it's not the end of the world. I'm sure if I x-rayed Hank again he would have some residual rotation, and it's been 2 years.
We just keep working on that hoof hoping someday it may be de-rotated....last x-ray he was close.
BUT he is very rideable, if Titan has some old rotation in there it does not mean you can't ride him. Good Luck with the x-rays
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 6:15 pm:
Hi Diane (my lady with the always sensible advice). Titan had no rotation on x-rays done twice after the July/08 episode. I hope that for him to be sound since it might be a good indication there is no rotation now - since he did not have it before.
Titan loves to be ridden. My farrier is ordering some boots to put on his feet so he can be ridden on the road and any rocks that are there - so she didn't think I couldn't ride him - only the nutritionist. I've gone through bad depression and anxiety through 2008 and riding Titan was my salvation. With 2 hip replacements, he is my wonder-horse - he is so safe. I so hope he can be ridden. X-rays can't be done until Thurs. and I am going crazy. I just feel like crying and crying. My 26-year-old hard keeper thoroughbred, Abe, had pink in his feet when they were trimmed for a few years and never foundered. So I am getting different info from everyone about Titan - whether it is a new mild episode of laminitis, whether it is the one from July/08 having been aggravated, that the July/08 one was worse than everyone thought (he was pretty well sound in 3 days and had no rotation), whether he even has had another episode of laminitis. I don't know who to believe.
Thanks Diane - the voice of reason.
Janice
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 6:41 pm:
Janice believe me I am no voice of reason! I about pulled my hair out when Hank foundered! And now I supress anxiety about the old mare all the time!
The only reason I can be reasonable about Titan is because Hank had a bad founder and has been rideable for quite sometime now. So just speaking from experience...I was a wreck when hank foundered too!
You are very right horses are great stress relievers(usually) 
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 6:42 pm:
Janice, to ease your mind.. i have a gelding with 4 white socks.. he has a pink line often when being trimmed...he has never foundered.. he is serviceably sound , in other words it does not bother him or me.. I can't jump him or show him , but he can pack my grand kids around all day long ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 6:52 pm:
Thanks Ann. Titan's line at the front of each front foot was red this past Saturday when he was trimmed. Do you think that makes a difference?
Janice
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 7:07 pm:
Janice, PIcasso's were his front hoofs only too.. looked like at the white line.. i might have a picture somewhere i will look for it..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 7:14 pm:
hard to see the red line you can a wee bit on the sides..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 7:32 pm:
Janice, my gray often have some red around the hoof like in the picture Ann posted. I've never had a problem with any of them. In fact, the farrier says they have great, hard, feet. I used to worry about the red/pink, but the farrier said there are many things that can cause it, and it's not serious.
As far as horses being you "salvation", several of us know about that! Many of us here are at that age when health problems and death seem to appear in ourselves or our families, and a lot of us have had great difficulties to deal with and have taken refuge with our horses.
Personally, within this last year I've lost my mother, three horses and a dog and seen my dad really go "down hill." The two years before all that I had some serious health issues. At times I would "run away" and hide out in the barn, even when it was either too late or the weather too bad to ride. Just being around the horses was quiet and calming and somehow reassuring.
It is encouraging to me that you can ride after your hip replacements. I may well be looking at the same proceedure down the road as I have arthritis badly in both hips.
There are some great people on HA, of all age groups. If you ever need a "shoulder" just post.
|
Member:
rtrotter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 7:44 pm:
Hi Janice,
What you may be seeing is the remnants of bruising that may have happened months ago and only visible now because his hoofs are growing out.
I occasionally see this on my own horses, who have not had any laminitic episodes, but do have to deal with hard racing surfaces.
It was my farrier who said by the time you see it on the bottom of the hoof, its been there for quite some time. It's usually gone by the next trim.
As far as Titan goes, he probably has to get used to not having shoes on, it usually takes a few days for them to get comfortable again, but he will probably be better off with no shoes as long as he does not have to deal with extreme surfaces for a while.
Boots are a good idea. You should look at the new Easyboots especially the Easyboot Glove, they are light and easy on and off and can be used with a gaiter. The horse does not have to have them on all the time.
Rachelle
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 8:34 pm:
Not a great pic, but check this out if you want to see a red hoof. This is Hanks awhile ago
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/151293.jpg
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:02 pm:
Diane - Titan only had blood - red blood at the front of his hoof. Did Hank have it all over his hoof????
Janice
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:06 pm:
Ann-I looked at your photos (you can sure post them better than I can) - Titan's line at the front I think was thinner and redder (if there is such a word) than Picasso's and I don't think Titan's line extended to the sides but the location looks the same.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:17 pm:
Sara - it sounds like you and I have gone through similar things. My father has gone downhill and was taken by ambulance to the hospital a few days ago. I lost a beloved cat last June/08, had a car accident in July/08, had hip resurfacing in my 2nd hip 5 weeks later and was off work 7 weeks until Oct/07, fell in Nov/08 and hit the front of my head, got septicemia in Nov/08 and was hospitalized, both my parents got viruses and lost their minds (my mother still had her's) so were in the hospital, I went on long term disability and the firm I worked for did not hold my job open for me so now I am looking for work so I am not cut of long term disability benefits and lose everything. Now I am freaking out about Titan and one of my cats probably needs a endoscopy (appt. next week) as she gets sick every day. So it has been rough. Animals have saved my sanity (what there was of it). So I know exactly where you are coming from.
By the way, Sara, I went through extreme pain in my hips from arthritis but despite the pain kept riding (then fell off and broke my left shoulder in 2005 - the bone was completely separated yet I tried to get up and get back on!). I was unable because of the hip arthritis to move my legs outwards. I did not have hip replacements because they often say don't ride horses afterwards. But there are 2 new procedures - large ball hip replacements and you can ride but they still chop off your femur and stick a metal thing down your femur that remains or, what I had, hip resurfacing - the scar is bigger but the smooth off the top of the hip joint, put a cap on it and put a cap for it to move around in - great surgery! There is a Yahoo group dedicated to it - surfacehippy - you can find a good surgeon in your area who does it - it is still considered a new procedure and somewhat experimental but boy, what a difference - pain gone in joint - I may get a bit but nothing compared to before and I have good range of motion. Think about it before getting the traditional small ball hip replacement.
Thanks for your post. It is clear you understand what I have gone through.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:19 pm:
Hi Rachelle - I think the Easyboot Glove is what my farrier is ordering - she said it is new. The purpose is really for road riding or where it is stoney/pebbly.
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:25 pm:
Diane - I have read your posts for years and yes you are the "voice of reason". You have a way of looking at things that helps remove the hysteria someone like me feels.
Janice
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:29 pm:
Janice Hank did have bruising on his sole.
Sounds like Titan had blood in his whiteline. Hanks most recent trimming was last week, he also had a little blood in one of his whitelines, don't remember which. Farrier calls it bruising. MANY things can cause it.
Ill fitting shoes
Going too long between shoeings/trimmings
trauma
Flares
laminitis
The horse wants to make you worry, because things have been going to smoothly (most likely)
Since Titan has been sound it is probably a non-event...wouldn't loose sleep over it!
Let us know how you like the "gloves"
|
Member:
jchadola
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 10:21 pm:
Hi Diane - Titan had the redness in both feet - that is why the farrier thought it was the recovery phase of another episode of mild laminitis but it could be as simple as shoes. He went 5 weeks between trimmings - now since both my older horse, Abe, and Titan have no shoes, trimmings are every 4 weeks at this point. Titan is sound, he's happy. I am interested in seeing how his feet react to no shoes. For some reason, intuition I guess, I feel good about them having no shoes. Both horses have no hind shoes and their feet look great - really hard. So we will see.
Janice
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 10:33 pm:
Janice, I have an excellent ortho guy here who has already talked to me about the new hip surgery. We are both believers in putting off until really needed. Right now drugs work most of the time.
We could get a big group going if we started one on aging riders with aches and pains!
Diane, our farrier says even changes in hoof growth due to going from wet to dry to wet, or from changes in feed can affect how the soles of their feet look and can cause minor separation and redness. No wonder we all go nuts when we look at their feet; there is always something going on there. I think "the horse wants you to worry" pretty much nails it on the head!
|
|
|
