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Discussion on Levi's white line
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 - 11:32 pm:
Dr. O, Levi has actually been very sound and barefoot for several months now. His white line on the bad foot (left) was very wide and the farrier said it would probably stay that way because of the damage, and the laminitis.
I honestly do not obsess on his feet so much any more. But a few days ago, I cleaned his feet and noticed that his white line was chalky, more like old sole, but it was easily dug out, and he did have what I felt was a seedy toe that I was able to dig out. I put some betadine in it. It seems to be hard under the area I scraped out.
It has been 4 weeks since his trim. Of course it is spring and muddy etc. Should I be worrying? Should I be doing anything to be proactive, so I do not encounter any future problems?
thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 7, 2009 - 8:39 am:
I wouldn't worry Susan, I would address the problem. All abnormal tissue needs paring out, uncovering, and treatment. Catch it early and it will be easy to treat.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, May 7, 2009 - 11:42 am:
If it helps Whiskey and I went thru this also! We are not paranoid  ! But this past winter he came thru in great shape.Our farrier here on Friday with luck OK but will ask him also.There is No such thing as too much info,.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Oct 12, 2009 - 11:31 pm:
Levi still seems to have recurring white line weakness, the farrier basically has said that he is just going to have to live with this. I too, am going to have to live with it, as we have no other choices for farriers in the area. His feet are definately more solid, and he keeps shoes on for the entire time between trimming, but when he removes the shoes, he does have about a quarter inch of soft white line, in different feet, and places. He just dug it out, and said the side wall will probably break off, but if it was his horse he would leave him barefoot, so that is where we are.
My question is, When the farrier works on Levi's left foot, which has been his worse foot, he physically cringes, stretches out his neck and tries to jerk his foot away. He does not do this with the other feet. The farrier, who if he could see the different gestures I occasionally make behind his back, as he discusses my horse, says he is just being a "spoiled brat" and acting out, just being a "problem"! I truly think this foot is sensitive, either physically or emotionally, and wish I was blessed with a farrier who had some behavior experience, rather than being a good rodeo boy!
My trainer went with me and held Levi, and witnessed his discomfort on that foot only. It it possible that it is physically sensitive, or has 3 years + of work been mentally stressful to him?
thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 13, 2009 - 5:04 am:
Hello Susan,
What is the farrier doing when the horse jerks and is there lameness following shoeing?
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 13, 2009 - 2:39 pm:
Hi Dr. O, he has been great as far as the lameness issue goes. That is why I continue to drive the 2 hours to this farrier. Levi is way better behaved than he use to be. This has been going on now for 3 yrs.
I have been riding him all summer with no issues. This farrier did let his toes get too long, although he won't admit that he did. So I think that is why we had a recurrance of the white line softness.
The farrier yells at him to knock it off, jerks on his leg, and continues to work on him. He has never swatted him.
Even when I pick his foot, he seems super sensitive on this foot. It is almost like when someone tickles your foot. I know this is all dead stuff on the surface of his foot in general. I just wonder if there is something physically annoying him, or just mentally he has an issue with this foot. If so what should we do to help him get over it?
suz
He does not refuse to pick up his foot at all, so I can not just pick up reward, pick up reward etc.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 13, 2009 - 3:02 pm:
Susan,
Are you sure its an issue with this foot, or could it be something on the other side that makes him want to jerk his foot away and put it down.
I had a mare that was sore in her left stifle, but always gave me a problem keeping her right hind up always wanted to snatch it back and put it down.
(I always thought it was a problem right hind, until the chiropractor found it, adjusted her and we did not have problem until I stopped adjusting her as frequently)
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 13, 2009 - 6:08 pm:
Susan, as you know Hank also has issues with his hooves, but we are getting there. I have to say FME with the way Levi is acting I would be having a good look at his right front. When Hanks was still painful after his founder he acted very much like you describe Levi when his LF was getting done, in actuallity he didn't like weighting his RF that long because the "cursed hoof" hurt when standing that long on it.
My sure tip off anymore is when the farrier is done with the LF and puts it down I always watch too see if he immediately shifts his weight off the RF or lifts it up(so does the farrier), he doesn't anymore, but used to. Hank behaves well for the farrier, but when his hooves hurt, he was a little bit worse. I don't think that it is behavior, because once his hooves stopped hurting the behavior went away.
Try picking up his LF until you see this behavior, set it down and see if he shifts his weight immediately off the RF and vice versa... might tell you something then again might not!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 14, 2009 - 9:15 am:
Hello Susan,
I am sorry my question was poorly worded. It should have been, "what is the farrier doing that causes the jerking."
However your posting that he jerks when you clean out the sole is almost as good. Unless there is exposed sensitive tissue, most often seen in a deep sulcus, he does not jerk because you are hurting or even tickling him. It is because either he hurts somewhere else like rtrotter suggests or is badly behaved.
rtrotter, I need to note here that equine medicine is not aware of any hip issues that result in it getting out of place and then respond to chiropractic "adjustment" to put it back in.
DrO
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 14, 2009 - 11:11 am:
Hi, Susan, I don't have tremendous experience with horses...That being said, my Cushingoid old guy Paint has low ringbone in his RF which causes periodic lameness. He has always tended to resist when his LR foot is picked up and it appears to me that he is uncomfortable because of the increased load on his RF at that point. All my farriers (and I love my current one) call him spoiled & stubborn, also.
But it has never made sense to me that he would be spoiled & stubborn about one particular foot. I do think animals have what they believe are good reasons for what they do, by and arge...it's up to us to figure out what those reasons are, as best we can, and then try to figure out how to work with, through or around their concerns. When Paint had a LR abcess (my 1st, probably far from his) I was trying to find a suitable container for soaking. One night I tried this good sized black feed tub, big enough, relatively low sides. It seemed perfect to me! But this horse, who always runs to his pen to eat, and puts his head down into his bucket until it's all gone, absolutely bolted out of the pen and refused to go back in. All I could imagine is that it looked like a big hole had suddenly appeared in there, and I wanted him to stick his foot in it! When I switched containers, he was again fine with the soaking.
If Levi's foot hurts, or he is anticipating that his foot will be hurt if he lets the farrier have it, I think it would seem perfectly logical that he would try to take it back.
Not sure what the solution is, but personally, I would try to find a way to respect his fears while trying to diminish them.
Kathy
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 14, 2009 - 11:36 am:
Dr. O,
We are going to have to agree to disagree as far as chiropractic adjustments are concerned. I have personally witnessed many horses getting better after adjustments.
In several cases, I had complete veterinarian exams done to try and locate the lamenesses or problems and spent a lot of money. This included going to a very renowned East coast Equine Hospital.
In the case I referenced above, several vets had looked at her and could not find anything wrong other than sore muscles behind which was treated, but the mare did not get any better.
I had just about given up and was ready to turn her into a riding horse, when someone suggested I see a chiropractor. He diagnosed a problem with her left stifle joint, adjusted that ( I heard it pop)and immediately afterwards this mare completely relaxed and started standing square equally weighted on both hind legs.
I told the chiropractor, that this mare would never let me pick up her right hind foot and keep it off the ground for any length of time and that she was always giving the farrier a hard time. When I went to lift that foot, not only didn't she give me a hard time but she kept it up in the air for a long while and did not try and jerk her foot out of my hand to make me put it down. She also immediately started to jog and train much straighter than she had over the previous two years to the point where I could remove the head pole she had been wearing because she no longer needed it.
This is only one story, I have others. So, while equine medicine may not be aware of things responding to chiropractic adjustments, I have seen it with my own eyes and measured it by the performance of the horses afterwards.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
My main point here was that horses often act like they are off in one spot while the truth is they are off in a completely different area.
Rachelle
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 14, 2009 - 5:56 pm:
I did everyone's suggestions, and today, he was eating his hay, and I picked all feet with no problems, no responses. which is his normal behavior. Sometimes he gets jerky with that Left foot, but it is usually when he is standing there, paying attention. If he is busy eating, there is no response.
However, when the farrier, hammers on this foot, to remove the shoe, or when he is putting in the nails, this seems to be the most discomfort time. I would love to have another farrier work on his feet and see if it is just his response to this farrier since he has been through so much with this guy?
He doesn't act angry, just stretches out his neck, leans on me if I am holding him, and trys to pull his foot away. Right foot does have white line issues sometimes. But he never acts that way when his shoes are removed or put on the right foot.
Just curious, WE are doing fairly well right now, so I am not going to worry to much. Just wish I could find a local farrier to work with him.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 15, 2009 - 9:19 am:
rtrotter your posts suggest a common event witnessed in human and equine medicine where a problem does not get well as quick as the patient (owner in this case) wants and so a alternative methods are used and the last alternative technique employed is the one that fixed the problem. This is the reason such destructive practices are often employed in non-science based medicine, even though the cure may be worse than the disease the patient got well anyway. As to your specific case I would note that the original diagnosis of sore muscles will almost always get well and there is no known mechanism for acupuncture to "heal" sore muscles. At least it is not a destructive practice.
There is some older work that supports the idea that a percentage of horses with chronically sore backs have a better outcome with the use of acupuncture. An interesting part of the work is that a number of techniques were employed along with a control group. The experiment found it did not matter where you stuck the horse (including one somewhat random pattern) or how you stuck the horse including not sticking the horse at all but using a laser to stimulate the skin. It suggests to me something else than "the science of acupuncture" is going on.
DrO
PS, This review of the subject sums it up pretty well when you consider it is impossible to prove a negative:
J Vet Intern Med. 2006 May-Jun;20(3):480-8.
Effectiveness of acupuncture in veterinary medicine: systematic review.
Habacher G, Pittler MH, Ernst E.
University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, Austria.
Acupuncture is a popular complementary treatment option in human medicine. Increasingly, owners also seek acupuncture for their animals. The aim of the systematic review reported here was to summarize and assess the clinical evidence for or against the effectiveness of acupuncture in veterinary medicine. Systematic searches were conducted on Medline, Embase, Amed, Cinahl, Japana Centra Revuo Medicina and Chikusan Bunken Kensaku. Hand-searches included conference proceedings, bibliographies, and contact with experts and veterinary acupuncture associations. There were no restrictions regarding the language of publication. All controlled clinical trials testing acupuncture in any condition of domestic animals were included. Studies using laboratory animals were excluded. Titles and abstracts of identified articles were read, and hard copies were obtained. Inclusion and exclusion of studies, data extraction, and validation were performed independently by two reviewers. Methodological quality was evaluated by means of the Jadad score. Fourteen randomized controlled trials and 17 non randomized controlled trials met our criteria and were, therefore, included. The methodological quality of these trials was variable but, on average, was low. For cutaneous pain and diarrhea, encouraging evidence exists that warrants further investigation in rigorous trials. Single studies reported some positive intergroup differences for spinal cord injury, Cushing's synDrOme, lung function, hepatitis, and rumen acidosis. These trials require independent replication. On the basis of the findings of this systematic review, there is no compelling evidence to recommend or reject acupuncture for any condition in domestic animals. Some encouraging data do exist that warrant further investigation in independent rigorous trials.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 16, 2009 - 7:13 pm:
Dr. O,
I spent a lot of time and money to diagnose an ongoing problem that I bought this mare with. I bought her as a two year old, knowing that the original owner had tried just about everything to figure out what was wrong, they could not figure it out. Everything normal was ruled out, with them and with me. Diagnostic blocks were done, xrays were taken etc.
I was not looking for a quick fix, I never am. I take my time to find and rehab my horses and I never rush them back when I think there is a problem.
Several vets looked at this mare in an attempt to figure out what was wrong, and couldn't diagnose her. Everyone had their own opinions and treated her accordingly, IMO none of it worked, she was still on the line and practically unsteerable.
I honestly did not hold out much hope for the chiropractor as far as this mare was concerned. However, the change was instantaneous. I did not have to wait for something ( medication, injection etc) to work, I saw the improvement in 5 minutes not 5 weeks. And the next day this horse went out and trained about 85% better than she had trained in the previous 6-12 months.
So while, this may have been the last thing I tried, I do not feel it was destructive as this mare was racing 3 weeks later and won her 3rd lifetime start. As long as her chiropractic treatments were done on a regular basis. I did not need to medicate her or inject her, which was fine with me because I do not like doing that anyway.
As far as being destructive goes, I find a lot of traditional veterinary medicine much more destructive then anything I could ever do holistically to my racehorses. Thats why I choose not to do it, if my horses are sore they do not race and they get the time and the treatments that I think will help them the most, and in most cases its alternative treatments and time off and not drugs or injections, as would be done in a traditional racing stable.
So, like I said in my original post in this thread we are going to disagree on this subject.
I think the last few sentences of your post, does not dismiss acupuncture in fact I see the opposite. I see it as they have "encouraging data to warrant further investigation in independent rigorous trials". The fact they could neither prove or disprove the fact that it worked, may have had more to do with what they were looking for as far as evidence was concerned.
Rachelle
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Oct 16, 2009 - 11:43 pm:
It is strange, but my physician does not believe in chiropractic either, If I go to them for pain, I get a script for pain meds. My Chiro adjusts, and I am good to go.
I just had Acupuncture done on my 18 year old and It really was a total difference in his posture. He hops on his back end due to some old age arthritis, and after the treatment, he actually walks swinging both back legs, and his back is noticably less hunched. This is administered by a small animal vet.
I have had chiro done on my horse, and actually have found that an hour massage has shown more relief than the chiro treatment, but if I found someone I trusted with acupuncture on horses I would try it.
suz
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 8:55 am:
Suz,
One thing that I have found since trimming my own horses is that many horses are not comfortable with their feet held up as high as say my Hoof-It stands is supposed to go. The video on their website says put the top of the stand about knee high. I have only one horse that loves all his hoofs done that high, the rest have different opinions as to what is comfortable. Same with where the foot is, like pulled out to the side a bit.
I would not allow anyone to jerk at, yell at a horse trying to remove his foot (Yes, I have lost patience myself and done just that, usually because I should have quit trimming one horse ago)I think there is a reason for them pulling away, and yelling don't help, scares most horses. A "HEY" gets attention if the horse needs a reminder that I am down there in the dangerous zone!
DrO,
Do you mean to tell me you've never in your life been to a chiropractor? Everyone in our family has had results from chiropractic. Not always from the same one, it takes take some searching to find a good doctor of any kind, but it is very helpful for many pain issues.
Went to many experts over a course of 10-12 years to find ear ache relief...chiro fixed it in 3 visits.
If it works on people, I have no idea why anyone would be against it for horses. It will be proven to be safe, and practical for horses at some time, IMHO.
I plan on asking the vet who does the teeth to check 2 of my horses backs next time I have her out. She's given demonstrations at our Equine Fair for years, and it is just amazing.
I think the combo of chiro and massage is wonderful, and I'd let them stick needles in me too if we had someone near by that was trained to do so.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 9:46 am:
All,
We seem to be getting off topic here about alternate therapies. However, Angie I was going to post earlier and ask Dr. O the same question about going to a chiropractor.
Over the course of my 57 years I have had numerous amount of issues, not necessarily with just my back, although getting thrown from my horse did precipitate my first visit. I walked into the Chiropractors office unable to stand up straight and in a lot of pain and after an xray and an adjustment walked out 85% better, after a good nights sleep I was almost 100%.
I have had issues with my arm, fingers and neck which were treated with a tens machine and an adjustment. These were issues that had been ongoing for at least six months before going for an adjustment because I kept thinking I was going to get better. It was so bad, I couldn't even pick up a pen to write. In fact, my horse chiropractor ( who is also a people chiropractor) recommended that I go see my regular chiropractor to get my thumb fixed ( 2 visits and all better). Once fixed, I have not had any more problems. The best part was no medication once the problems were taken care of.
As far as my horses go, I sometimes schedule their massages first and the chiropractor second, sometimes on the same day. I get better results that last longer. Also, when I am dealing with a specific problem my horses get treated at least three times within a 10 day span with lengthening time spans between treatments on an ongoing basis.
My equine chiropractor uses a combination of energy work using acupuncture points and chiropractic and my horses just relax and enjoy it while its going on. All I need to see is the relaxation and contentment in their faces to know its working. I do not need much more 'evidence' then that.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 11:06 am:
I guess you can look at it that way rtrotter but they are saying currently there is no good scientific support for it’s use. Yes they leave open the possibility that further testing might find some support but that is a poor basis for treatment of actual disease.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 11:12 am:
No guys, I have never been to a chiropractor nor has anyone in my family or extended family that I am aware of. I guess we manage to get well without them. The lack of firm evidence for improved outcomes is a real problem with me and concerning equine chiropractic I find the language completely misleading. For more on this see
The largest best conducted study in people that I can find was conducted by the insurance companies trying to find a way to get folks back to work quickly about a decade ago. It brought back counterintuitive results at least to me. They found no differences in outcomes (traditional vs chiropractic) for folks missing work with chronic ailments. But people with acute injuries returned slightly quicker when chiropractic was used, on average, than those receiving just traditional care. I believe this was a trend but statistically not significant but I would have to review that to be sure.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 11:22 am:
Since when has this bunch stuck to a topic for very long?
I'm of the opinion that probably traditional spine manipulation as a cure all, whether in people or horses, is close to quackery; and that is what a lot of folks think of when they think of chiropractors. The only time spine manipulaton should be used is if there is actually a misalignment due to injury I'd think. Today's chiropractors are schooled in so many different ways to treat now. I worked in traditional medicine for many years and always thought chiropractors were quacks until my MD suggested I go to one to treat the pain in my hips from osteo-arthritis. I didn't want to take pain meds. I was treated with accupressure, and after the series of 5 treatments, I was pain free for a year. Since then, I've seen very good results also in horses with accupressure and message, and am now a believer. As Angie states, as with other medical professionals, you have to find one who is "good" however.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 12:06 pm:
O.K., wait a minute. A "Cure ALL" No way, I don't think anything is a "Cure All" all aspects of regaining our health are usually multifaceted. Even being treated with an antibiotic for something that 99.9% of the time responds to it, if a person wants to be ill, or die, I believe the mind can make it happen.
Last year our daughter was playing basketball, and suddenly stopped, she had severe pain her back. Had we taken her to ER, or our family doctor, I have no doubt that she would have been told to ice it, use heat later (a chiro should tell you the same, and we did that) and high doses of something for pain & inflammation..we gave her Advil.
3 days later, she still could not move freely. A few minutes with our chiropractor and she was pretty much pain free. He said a rib had "popped out" and the small amount of touching and adjustment he did to her was simply amazing! We only regret we did not take her sooner.
We are a family who walks on each others backs, pop our own backs, do massage on each other. Yup, loving touch probably has a lot to do with it. We don't mess with adjusting necks, but I know we help each other by releasing tension with back "pops" which is most likely nothing more than releasing the ribs/spine and lactic acid build up??
My husband & I have both found sciatic nerve relief from hip/lower back adjustments.
I would agree that the quackery part comes in to play when chiropractors claim to cure allergies, bed wetting, etc...that does sound far fetched. Yet I saw my husbands daughter, as a teen, have her severe acne clear up from regular chiro appts. It was very interesting as you could see her face clearing from the hairline inwards!
Maybe we can't explain it scientifically, yet, YET I think there are too many positive outcomes to say it is not helpful.
DrO, if you ever visit Upper Michigan, I'll be glad to introduce to my favorite chiropractor, my treat. In fact I have 2 that I really love, and one that I think is an arrogant B*****d, you are welcome to go to any of them, they all do things differently, yet I come out of their office walking straighter, breathing more clearly every time. (when I need an adjustment, swinging my arms forward and backwards, I feel my breath "catching" in my chest...an adjustment frees that up)
I'd say anything that feels good, can't be bad, but that might really get us off topic!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 4:48 pm:
Hello Guys,
This is the problem we have with almost any alternative medicine procedure we talk about. As an example, we have folks who treat their horses with magic water (very dilute homoepathic medications) who have had remarkable outcomes with their use. And you know, it is absolutely true that most sick horses will get better when treated with such preparations or if you rattle chicken bones if front of the stall. But let's digress a bit before we return to this point.
A main purpose of this site is to avoid giving specific treatment advice at all. Mainly we try to apply a system of questions and discovery to educate on the proper diagnosis of their horse's condition. We also try to provide accurate up-to-date information on the treatment of specific horse ailments.
If someone's veterinarian recommends alternative treatments it is not my place to disagree with the recommendation. My place is to educate members and visitors to this site what is known about such treatment. When specific alternative medicine advice or even off the cuff recommendations are given in this environment I feel the chance for disservice to our readers is great. I will always be sure that anyone reading the recommendation understands the science behind it. I have seen dozens of chiropractic adjustments and acupuncture treatments and what I have seen has not made me predisposed to give it a break. If the science changes so will the advice here and I look for such science every day.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 7:03 pm:
O.K., Doc, we understand! And seriously, I appreciate you sticking to your guns looking for Scientific proof where there is none. Some of us just like a good discussion of course. I trust you will be the first to put any "proof" on here as/if it becomes available.
I can't help but add: I haven't tried shaking chicken bones yet in front of their stalls, but I suppose it might be a good "experiment."
On a personal note, I just went through my horse file of receipts for the last 3 years. I noticed many purchases of the same joint supplement which I haven't used for 6 months now. Interestingly, I think both horses that were getting it, are doing just as well as before.
I wasn't brave enough to total up the rest of the "extras!" No chicken bones, or diluted water receipts. 
Keep up the good work, DrO.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 9:13 am:
It scientific! Shaking chicken bones in front of the stall of a sick horse is followed by the horse getting well about 80% of the time.
DrO
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