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  Discussion on Thrush?
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 7:30 pm:

Dr.O. when Hank was trimmed and shod about a week ago he had a black ring going all around his white line. The farrier dug out as much as possible(most of it) and I put Tomorrow on it right before he applied the shoe. Hank had broke out a bit of his quarter before trimming which left a tiny gap at that area after the shoe was applied.

Today when I was cleaning his hooves I noticed that defect at the quarter had gotten much bigger. I dug the mud out and the hoof pick went all the way inside the hole! Once I reached something solid inside he pulled away like it hurt.

Tonight I dug the mud out again and that is one deep hole. Black gunk came out and smelled strongly of thrush. I squirted half a tube of tomorrow in it and the hole held it all.

I really feel I should cover this up as much mud as we have. I thought about a betadine soaked cotton ball but I believe I would never get it back out of that hole (really) it's that deep.

How should I go about treating this???

Thanks
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 10:02 pm:

Diane,

Get yourself a box of 3" by 3" gauze pads. After you've cleaned the area, put some Tomorrow in the hole and then push the gauze pad in. If you can squirt the Tomorrow on the gauze pad as you are putting it in that's even better then saturate the top of the gauze pad as you continue to push it in the hole.

Using the gauze pad accomplishes two things. It keeps the medicine in the hole and it packs the hole so dirt and mud can't get in. Also, the gauze has no problem staying in the hole. You will know if you are getting to the problem because each day you will need less and less gauze.

You need to have a good talk with Hank and tell him to stay out of the mudholes and to not worry his mom.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 10:27 pm:

Good Idea Rachelle. Should I not cover it with something? I'm afraid the gauze may become soaked with the outside debris. I wonder if a piece of duct tape would work if I got his hoof good and clean before applying it?

Hank can't stay out of the mud...it's been quite wet here. I guess I could lock him up with his mother...that would be entertaining!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 10:41 pm:

Duct tape might work, but that would get wet too. The only thing I can think of that you can wrap his foot with and not be so susceptable ( Sp?) to water would be vetrap and that gets a bit expensive to do long term. What about a boot over the shoe?
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 11:07 pm:

Rachelle, Diane, what is "Tomorrow?" This interesting, and useful for me too.
Susie
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:56 am:

I do the same thing as Rachelle, but use cotton balls and use a large size crochet hook to pack them in. They don't come out until they are pulled out with the hook, and the crevaces stay nice and clean.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 6:59 am:

Susie Tomorrow is mastitis stuff for cows....works great on thrush.https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/311785.html

This hole is in his hoof wall and runs like a tunnel along the hoof wall towards the toe about halfway. (I really hope this isn't WLD). That's why I don't know if I stuff something in there if could get it back out. I have a feeling I couldn't. The whole head of the hoof pick fits in there.
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 8:39 am:

Try swimmees diapers. Duct tape the leg openings and tape the top to keep it on. It gives you enough space for the hoof to get air to heal, and yet keeps the mess away.
I buy up a few packages of the small ones at the end of the season when they are on sale at good old Wally World... then I can change them daily at a fairly well-managed cost. I seem to remember that I learned this trick from HA!!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 8:54 am:

Cyndy I am the one that accidentally found the little swimmers and gave the tip.

Imagine that I forgot about them...have 2 packages in the tack shed! GOOD IDEA!

Thanks
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:13 am:

Thanks Diane, and by the way, I found your tip on swimmees a litte earlier than I found this discussion. Good stuff. Thanks so much
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:15 am:

I hope things go well with Hank's tunnel. Sounds like he's in good hands.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:18 am:

All,

The reason I use the gauze is because you can stuff it in all in one piece and pull it out in one piece.
As far as the swimmies go, I think you may have a problem because Hank has a shoe on and he may wear through the swimmie defeating the purpose of putting it on.

Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 11:03 am:

The reason I use the cotton is because I always have it on hand and the crochet hook is the only way I can pull it out! Maybe I should try the gauze with the hook next time.

I agree with Rachelle about Hank's shoes. If he's moving around much, they will wear through the swimmies or duct tape. Do you have a boot you could put on him that will fit over his shoe?

Really though, if the gauze or cotton either one is packed in there, I'm pretty sure it will at least last for a day. I don't think I've ever had it come on until I pulled it out. If you're concerned about getting either cotton or gauze out, small tweezers would help.
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 11:41 am:

I can see the good reasoning behind using the gauze, Rachelle. Sara, the crochet hook is a great idea.

I don't think there will be any problem with leaving the hoof naked if the gauze/cotton is soaked with the TOMORROW solution and packed in tightly. Any water/bacteria that tries to enter will have to enter from the bottom, and the medicated packing will already be in there to stop the entrance of bacteria and water.

I wouldn't even worry about tape or diapers or vetwrap or anything.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:02 pm:

Since the hole is in the side of his hoof, starting directly above the shoe and then running sideways through the hoof wall I thought maybe a piece of duct tape might stay...nothing has to go on the bottom of his hoof. I will try the gauze.. hope it doesn't disappear into the black hole! I hope I don't have to remove his shoes to treat this, he is so much more comfortable with them on
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:20 pm:

Diane,
Can you get a picture of this? You might have the beginning of a wall separation. In order to pack the hole the gauze needs to disappear into the hole.
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:59 pm:

Of course I can get a pic It probably won't be very good tho. Hank has wall separation no doubt..we are still dealing with crappy hooves since his founder. I'm sure when the farrier dug out the black line it compromised the "connection" but it had to be done! I'll get pics when I go out to work him.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 2:46 pm:

Here's a pic..the tunnel runs towards his toe

Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 7:57 pm:

I got the gauze in Hope that helps get rid of it. His hooves have really gotten shelly again, I think I'm going to start him on a hoof supp again. They did seem to be better when he was on it.

THANKS
Member:
quatro

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 9:43 pm:

Hi Diane, as you know I have been through the ringer with Levi. I just had the farrier check his new chalky white line. So I am in worry mode as well
You might check into Keratox, it is a treated waxy like substance that you make a soft blob out of, and then stuff it in the hole, it keeps moisture out, and also treats the foot.
the black stuff, is it crumbly, like black cottage cheese? If so that could be the white line that we have been dealing with. Why they call it white line disease, it is usually black in the white line.
Good luck, we too have mounds of mud,and I have put thrush buster in levi's bad hoof, wrapped it with a diaper, taped it with gorilla strength duct tape, and then put a cavalla boot on, just to keep the mud out.
My old gelding, has hooves of a mustang. I wish I could transplant his to Levi's
Suz
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:12 pm:

Susan the stuff coming out of the hole is tar like, and stinks just like thrush. What was in his white line at trimming was kind of cottage cheesy UGHHH.

Have to see what's under there next appt. if his shoes stay on that long
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:15 pm:

I strongly recommend wall undermined by disease be removed: treatment is easier, the prognosis much better and the cure faster.
DrO
Member:
paul303

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:24 pm:

Farrier's formula is a great supplement...worked better than Shoer's Friend for mine...After the foot problems cleared, I've kept them on at 1/2 dose, and their feet grow well and produce healthy horn.

Plugging the hole with 1 long continuous strip of gauze soaked Cefa dry ( tomorrow ), should work and you should be able to remove it easily with a hoof pick or forceps. I don't think you need to cover it, but if you find it necessary, I've found that covering the hoof with a premie diaper or "swimmies", then vet wrapping that, then making a 8"x8" mat of overlapping strips of duct tape, placing the wrapped hoof in the center of the mat, and folding the mat up ( cutting the mat down towards the hoof with scissors and overlapping the pieces as you work your way around the hoof....and finally, winding a couple of strips of duct tape around the hoof for extra security - will keep the hoof secure and dry for a day or so. I don't think you need this if you pack the hole tightly with treated gauze bandage. I only use it when I suspect an abscess and I'm packing the sole with sugardine.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 7:53 am:

I couldn't find the gauze this morning..packed with mud! I'll have to dig around a little more when I get home, hope it didn't get lost in the "black hole" UGHH
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 11:56 am:

Diane, from the pic and what I have read, it looks like you have a case of White Line Disease. I am not sure if Dr. O can confirm, but this looks a little more serious than thrush to me.

I fought w a severe case of White Line Disease with my one gelding. He started out with a few toe cracks. My farrier decided to 'cover up' the cracks w equithane and I, trusting his advice, let him. (dumb me) Turns out he had some seedy toe (white line disease) going on under there and covering it up made it fester and blow up into a horrible case. I almost lost him over this stupid mistake, as his hoofwall became so unstable his coffin bone began to fall downward almost like a founder. It took over a year (with a new farrier of course) to grow out his hoof and get him completely sound again. It was just awful! If caught early it is easy to cure, but if let go it can be a terrible nightmare.


If indeed it is white line disease, your farrier or vet may have to come and remove the diseased hoof wall like Dr O mentioned. It is easier to treat this way and will allow it to get air to it which kills the white line disease. At minimum you need to soak him in some stuff called 'clean trax' and/or use Podi-green gel to treat kill the bacteria and fungus. Both are available from Valley vet. Just follow the instructions to the letter on the clean trax as it is a multiple step process. The podi green gel is more convenient since you just squirt it on some gauze and pack it in the affected areas. In a severe case I say use both, but in a mild case probably Podi Green would be fine I think.
Clean Trax
Podi green

Keeping the mud out of the hoof will also be so important until his hoof cleans up and starts to grow out. The dirt is what carries the bacteria and the mud clogging up the hole will only make the problem worse. I used the 'Quick Fix Hoof Wrap' (also at valley vet) as well as a hoof boot/slipper (from KYhorse.com) to keep my duct tape bandages on and the mud out. I will warn you, if your horse is out in the pasture with the wrap, the quick fix wrap will wear down pretty quickly so you may need to order a few of them.
Hoof Wrap

Hoof Slipper
Hope this helps.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 4:11 pm:

Thanks Jennifer, being fairly new here I'm sure you don't know the multiple problems I have/had with hank over the years. I have all those things in my arsenal and then some.

This year is the first year he has made it through the winter with no shoes. I could keep him barefoot, but he has terribly thin soles so for riding I'm not fighting it anymore the shoes go on

You are right, I don't know for sure if he has WLD or not. I believe his broken out quarter is from my farrier always leaving the wall to long there. There was a small gap after he was shod, but now it is much bigger...possibly from the mud getting stuck in there and him digging the black ring out.

He had something similar to this last year and I believe it is maybe WLD. The vet dug it out of his Right front, the left front was OK then....now it has switched hooves!

The farrier did dig out the black ring and I applied the Tomorrow right before he put the shoes on.I will know more when the farrier comes and removes his shoes.

I still haven't found the gauze, hopefully it fell out! When I cleaned the mud out of it today it didn't stink and wasn't tarry anymore. We have dry weather forecast until Tues night and Weds. I am going to fill it up with Tomorrow again but put some duct tape over it this time.

I don't know if it is wishful thinking, but my hoof pick didn't go in as far today...unless the gauze is stuck back there

THANKS!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 9:49 am:

Until you remove the overlying horn, you will not get to the root of the problem Diane.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 5:10 pm:

Dr.O would it hurt anything to wait until his next re-set which I believe is the first week in June?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

Probably not Diane.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 6:45 am:

Thanks Dr.O. that hole is getting to be a pain, I'm always digging mud grass ect. out. The rain has started again so I wrapped it and locked him in the lean to paddock area (it's that time of year anyway). I think I will call the farrier and see if we can't get it fixed somehow.

I'm kind of stuck like Susan as far as treatment. When I saw the black ring the farrier was getting ready to put his shoe on, I asked if that was WLD he said yes, but wasn't going to dig it out...I made him...same with vet last year. I am not sure if a black ring indicates WLD or not? It did not seem chalky when he dug it out. Hank has been SOOO sound with his shoes on I am finally able to work him.

I am not real pleased with this last shoeing anyway, I think he needs a bigger shoe.

Where would you start with this vet or farrier?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 5:46 pm:

I called the farrier he is coming out this weekend to see what's going on. The plan is to remove the shoes. See what's going on under there and possibly leave him barefoot for a couple weeks if necessary. There goes his exercise

Thanks
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 6:09 pm:

Diane - so sorry to hear about this. Between this, and Sam, and before that Flash you have had your share of horsemom worries.
Just wanted to wish you good luck,
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 6:21 pm:

Thanks Lilo, the good news is they all seem to be on the upswing (I hope)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 8:05 am:

That sounds like a plan to me. Thrush can complicate the defects made by white line disease but the existing thrush does not diagnose WLD.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 12:02 pm:

Good luck with this Diane. I hope that it is a minor situation that you will overcome quickly.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 9:03 pm:

DrO. I am starting to re-think pulling Hanks shoes.

When It's dry out I just try to keep the hole clean and squirt Tomorrow in it twice a day. When it's muddy(which is quite often, I have been keeping him up in the lean-to mostly. When I let him out I squirt the Tomorrow in it and wrap it with vet rap and duct tape. The hole IS filling in, it's about half the size and doesn't stink or appear "tarry" anymore.

I know you can't diagnose his problem, but was wondering if you could offer up an opinion on a couple things, before I decide for sure.

Since the hole is filling back in, would that indicate it is NOT WLD? (at least in that spot)

Hank is doing so well with shoes on. I am able to work him now, which I feel imperative for him. His next scheduled farrier appt is 6/10. The farrier is going to be out of town for 2 weeks starting next week, so if something does happen he won't be here. Since his "hole" is filling in and I am wiling to keep treating it would/could it hurt anything to leave his shoes on until next scheduled appt.? I REALLY like having a sound Hank for once, but don't want to compromise his hoof if this is something I should get aggressive about right away.

Thanks
Member:
dres

Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 10:04 pm:

Diane follow your gut feelings.. treat with the tomorrow stuff / watch / wait and see.. he will surely be sore when you pull the shoes off..

but , i am no Dr. O.. :-)

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 10:33 pm:

Diane,

Is there any reason why, you just don't boot Hank instead of putting shoes on him. There are so many different types of boots, you should be able to find something that would work, so he would only have to have them on when you want to work him.

The other reason you might want to do this is so that he does not have a difficult time transitioning back to barefoot from regular shoes.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

Rachelle, there is a couple reasons I don't boot him (I have before) he has a never ending changing hoof...thus I have boots that fit one month and a couple mos. later they don't. At this point I have 2 pair of boots, One pair is way too big now, since we have been trying to get that toe back....the 2nd pair is now too small and I'm not buying anymore.

I don't believe he will have a hard time transitioning out of them...he didn't last year. He is fine barefoot in the pasture, but if I want to ride or work him his thin soles tend to bruise, I have been fighting this for years trying to keep him barefoot...just isn't worth it, when he can be perfectly sound and not bruise with shoes on.

The second reason is I'm lazy and don't want to deal with boots, I know they are easy enough, but there are days that when I get home from work the less I have to do to ride the better...or I won't!

Ann you are right in following the "gut feeling" tho I don't think he'd be sore barefoot, I just wouldn't be able to work him much...which isn't good this time of year for him.

Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 10:27 am:

Diane, if there is healthy tissue at the bottom of your whole, by definition there is no infection. If you cannot tell what the whole if filling in with, you cannot know if it is healthy down there or not.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 12:02 pm:

The farrier called and is coming today at 12:30, I was kind of hoping he forgot about us.

If he feels the need to pull the shoe I will take pics...I hope we can leave the shoes on!

Thanks
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 2:31 pm:

The farrier probed around the hole and thought it wasn't diseased hoofwall. He suggested I just keep cleaning it. Leave the shoes on, and hopefully he will have enough wall grown by then for a reset. He thought removing the shoe may lead to further cracking of the hole and that the shoe would help hold it together.

So there we have it, he thinks I worry too much!...off to ride
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 6:41 pm:

Dr.O. the farrier came out and pulled Hanks sprung shoe.

He is going to stay barefoot until Thurs. farrier didn't trim anything just pulled shoes.

I checked where that black line was in his white line and it is kind of soft and crumbly there. I dug it out until I hit solid sole about 1/4 in.

Does this indicate WLD? He is moving ok barefoot his flare is definitely getting better which I takes as a good sign

You can see how deep I dug at his quarters.





Flare

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 7:20 pm:

I just re-checked and put Tomorrow on his white line. I can't believe how much harder that area is already. Could it have been soft and crumbly just from having shoes on? He is also shedding his sole if that makes a difference.

Surprisingly he is moving VERY well barefoot, even on hard ground
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 10:21 am:

Diane,

I don't know about the WLD, or if it's thrushy, but I see a very long hoof wall at the quarters causing flare. Tango has that too (who else?!) and I am following the methods at www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot "a wild horse trim" and "flares" I know you are putting on shoes, yet I would think long wall would be bad no matter what. When I backed the flare up, and rasped at 45* from the bottem, it took care of most of what I was worrying about regarding that "valley" I was also digging out.

Tango didn't have flares before I took on trimming him, I created them, so now I am fixing them!

But now you've got me wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to squirt some Clean Trax or something in there, it is very wet here lately.

This is from the website:

"What is a Flare?" (paraphrasing some)

"A flare is separation of the hoof wall, away from the coffin bone....Flare tells us that white line strectching or separation has occurred and the hoof wall is not attached to the coffin bone in that area. FLARE AND WHITE LINE SEPARATION ARE THE SAME THING. When you look at the sole of a flared hoof, the white line beside the flare is dirty(stretched) or makes a small groove (separated...I call this a valley) between the wall & the sole.

The last paragragh discusses WLD, and it says there very seldom is true WLD, it is a stretched white line folks see. If it is true WLD, the fungus or bacteria will travel far up under the hoof wall. It you tap on a hoof wall with WLD, with a tool, it will sound hollow.

Huh, I didn't know that!

'Nways, FYI.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 11:03 am:

Hi Angie, the hoof wall wasn't that long until I dug out all the cruddy white line next to it It was just about flush with the hoof wall before I did that.

I do believe (not sure) that if I leave the "cruddy" white line it will continue to flare.

Hopefully when the farrier come Thurs he can straighten out the mess I made, but I think (hope)it was a necessary mess?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 11:23 am:

Cleaning out poor quality and diseased horn is always indicated. As for deciding what is eating away at it read the two articles on white line disease and thrush, it should make your assessment easier.
DrO
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 12:10 pm:

Related to the 'long hoof wall'... When shoes are on, you should not be able to slide more than a credit card between the shoe and the sole of the foot. If you can, then the farrier is not taking enough hoof off and setting you up for WLD, abscesses, etc. If there is too much of a space, mud and debris (and bacteria) will pack up in there and cause bruising and infection.

Other than the long hoof walls, Hank's hoof looks pretty good to me.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 12:20 pm:

Thanks after reading the 2 articles again I tend to think it is a limited (hopefully) case of WLD.

When I dug the white line out I did hit solid horn, and am now treating with betadine.

Dr.O. should I put off getting his shoes back on so I can continue to treat this? OR can we put a treatment in place such as cotton soaked betadine and put the shoe over it? Thanks
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 1:11 am:

Time for comic relief! Okay, its late and I'm punchy, but I've gotten so tickled at the description of sliding a credit card into the space between a horse's hooves and his shoes that I just had to post.

Its a great description Jennifer, and makes your meaning very clear. But... my horses are such money pits... that the mental picture I got was of using my credit card (slid under my horse's hooves) just like I slide it through the little electronic payment box at the feed and tack store. I can even hear the little ding accepting the payment!

How much more efficient to put my money right into their feet! Perhaps I could even set up payments to my vet and farrier using this new method of "direct deposit"!

Thank you for the laugh as well as a great visual. I don't think that I will forget how to check my farrier's work next time we need shoes!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 6:40 am:

Jo Ann!!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 8:16 am:

Diane, I don't think you will be able to treat the white line if a shoe is on.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 6:50 pm:

Thanks Dr.O. I will leave his shoes off for now.

Tonight when I dug I didn't hardly get any "cheesy" crumbly stuff. Is there a way for me to know if this is deeper than it appears? I am hitting solid horn. I have been dumping betadine in it after I dig.
I also have been using Tomorrow since it is an anti-fugal/bacterial with some waterproofing qualities.

My vet and farrier don't seem to think WLD is a big deal and unless I really get after them won't pare it out. I asked the vet last year about removing the wall over Hanks WLD and he said no they don't do that...and I wouldn't dream of letting my farrier do it...even if he was willing. (which he's not)

I'm kind of lost what to do, other than to dig what I can out.

IF Hank had a bad case of WLD last year wouldn't it show up somehow? He holds his shoes well.His rotation seems to be improving quite a bit. The hooves don't sound hollow, tho his quarters do seem to break out easily, think that is the farriers trimming tho...not sure.

How long does it take for untreated WLD to eat the hoof and complications of it to show up?

Also how can I determine when he can have shoes again? When the WL fills in solid?

Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 10:02 am:

Sometimes it takes months Diane.
DrO
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 12:04 pm:

Diane, when my gelding got white line disease the first (and only) sign I had was he kept getting toe cracks. He never went lame. I later found out that was a where the WLD started (sometimes called seedy toe) and the cracks were the result of the WLD weakening the hoof wall.

I am sorry your farrier doesn't take it seriously. He should... I almost lost my gelding over a similar farrier not taking it seriously and actually covering the cracks up with Equithane. I spent a whole year growing out his hoof again. My vet DID remove the bad hoof wall. If he hadn't I probably would still be battling it. It does no good to keep it there and only creates a crevice to harbor mud and bacteria, perpetuating the disease. In my gelding's case, it was a bad bad idea to keep the shoes off because it just allowed more mud, etc. to pack up in his hoof. She shoes kept him up off the ground more and helped to stablize his hoof while new healthy hoof grew back in.

That all being said, based on the pics I see here, Hank's hoof looks like it is on the way to recovery. If he is foundered and can not go barefoot I personally would put shoes back on him after you have treated his foot for a week or so and feel that you have the WLD at bay. Then with shoes on I would treat him periodically by soaking with Clean Trax to prevent reinfection at least until the next shoeing when you can confirm it is all gone. The soak penetrates the entire hoof while topical treatments may not.

Here are some pics of Dude's feet after the vet 'resected' the diseased hoof. I don't have 'before' pics (kicks self) but basically his foot looked pretty normal except for a toe crack and some flaring. Xrays revealed that the whole front of his hoof had separated and his bony column was starting to shift down and was only a short ways from coming through his sole. It was terrifying.

Dude WLD
Dude WLD2

I need to repost all of this as a learning experience for others in another thread if I can ever get the time. I have the digital xrays to share too.
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 12:46 pm:

Yikes! Jennifer, thanks for the graphic warning. Now I need to shake off the visual shock! I hope that the story had a decent ending.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 1:40 pm:

Thanks Jennifer, those resects can get pretty ugly. I'm doing my best. The vet is coming out to US Flash this afternoon and I am going to have him look at Hanks feet for his opinion.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 4:10 pm:

Jennifer, I hope you will post about the resection especially with the x rays.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 5:37 pm:

Dr.O.I guess I'm confused what WLD. The vet looked at Hanks hooves and said it was just stretched WL. To put his shoes back on and work his fat butt.

Here is a pic of what I'm concerned about. I have it circled. When I scratch that lumpy WL it crumbles off just like cheese and is black underneath it, it has a rubbery feel to it. I have dug it out as far as I can go with a hoof pick (that's why his walls look so long) I left this little bit so you could see it.

Hank had a a raised DP pretty much since his shoe removal Sat. Vet said because of his thin soles...that do seem to be improving....vet said if he x-rayed him again he would bet his sole ha thickened quite a bit

Here's a pic is this just stretched WL? It crumbles right off.




Here's a close up of his toe, you can see how deep I dug th WL out and the white powdery stuff left behind...OR is this just normal powdery stuff? HELP

Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 9:37 am:

LOL sorry Suzie, I guess I forget that those pics can be kinda graphic. Believe me it was pretty awful to watch them (the vet and farrier) take that hoof off. I thought that there was NO way this horse was going to make it.

Yes, Julie, Dude has completely grown out a whole new hoof, is happy, healthy and completely sound. It was a long haul though, with a lot of tedious work from my farrier to keep shoes on him and from me to keep it treated and clean.

I will post a new thread (one day LOL) with detailed pics and xrays so that everyone can learn from my experience.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 3:06 pm:

Thank you for sharing.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 6:06 pm:

I think it looks suspicious Diane but images can be misleading. Maybe this is something picked up from the ground. Stretched WL do not typically have white chaukly stuff, if anything they are usually thrushy if anything.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 7:28 pm:

The farrier re-shod Hank today and he was able to remove all that hoof wall since I dug out that crater. I have to say his WL looked the best it has in a LONG time once he was trimmed.

The farrier asked what I had been doing, I told him digging all the dead stuff out and treating with Tomorrow twice daily. He said he doesn't say it often, but he was IMPRESSED! Said he was going to get himself some of that stuff

After his trim we were down to nice WHITE,more solid WL, not black and white crumbly stuff. The WL seemed much tighter there too...still stretched a tiny bit...I wish I would have had my camera with me so you could see the huge improvement. Here I was scared I was making him worse. Digging that stuff out was the best thing I could have done.

Thanks MUCH!
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 12:49 am:

Hooray for Hank, you, and the farrier. Great conclusion.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 7:07 am:

Thanks Suzy, maybe that sprung shoe was a blessing in disguise.

When I had the vet look at Hanks hooves he said it was not WLD...I think it was a limited version of it.

I asked my vet to describe WLD to me, in case I was missing something.

He said WLD was when their WL is all bloody and the horse is so lame he can't walk. The man confuses me, I told him they can have WLD without lameness in the beginning, and it can eat their hoof away if left unchecked...he did not agree.

I was not being snarky, but told him maybe he should go read up on it a bit...I got a look! We had a quite a conversation about it and agreed to disagree! I like my vet, he is all I have anyway.

He also said I should put Hank on thyroid meds and cimmedine (sp) because he had DP's. I told him he had them since his shoes were pulled. He told me he was foundering because of the DP's HMMM

He was walking fine...SOOO Dr.O. I got the question! He asked me what causes a DP other than founder...I was armed with ans. for that one!!!!

I asked him if he thought horses could get a pulse just because...he said NO, only founder and abscesses cause them. I then asked if he thought Flash had ever foundered or has hoof problem (she never has and has hooves of steel) he said no...well I told him she occasionally has a DP for no obvious reason...He didn't know what to say then!

As he was leaving he again told me he thinks Hank really should go on those meds... even tho he said he wasn't fat...was just going by dp's. I declined, said he was be managed just fine with diet and exercise.

I am SO glad I have this website to help me figure things out!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 7:32 am:

NO detectable DP this morning
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 7:58 am:

Dr.O. sorry I am rather obsessed with Hanks hooves As far as the DP goes, when the vet asked what I thought was causing it, I told him the 1st day his shoes were pulled he did not have one, but the next day is when I started digging all the diseased WL out (that's when the DP appeared) and why it kind of scared me to keep doing it. I thought since I had dug so much WL out and had left him weight bearing on VERY long hoof walls and long toes, the torque was causing the DP. Since he got his walls(A LOT) taken down yesterday his DP has disappeared. Vet said NO!

Is my theory possible? I can't believe if he was foundering he would be moving just fine, and the pulse would disappear overnight.

Thanks
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Jun 6, 2009 - 4:08 pm:

Diane,

I am not sure if Dr. O will agree with your theory, but I do. I also think that sometimes increased DP's are a horses way of saying that his feet need more circulation.

With my horses, there are times that their feet are very warm before exercise Higher DP and cold after being worked, no DP. They are not lame or foot sore and half the time I don't even pay attention to their DP unless something makes me suspicious. Since Hank has had a founder problem in the past, you are regularly monitoring his DP's and would know what would and wouldn't be causing their ups and downs.

I wouldn't have been overly concerned about the long hoof walls causing the increased DP's, but instead the fact that by digging out the WLD, it made Hank land more on his thin soles instead of his inside walls. At least this is what I see in the pictures.

When your farrier trims Hank when he's barefoot, does he pare the sole or let it exfoliate by itself?

As far as the Meds go, vets would not make as much money if they all told their clients that their horses would be better off with better management practices regarding feed, environment, exercise and weight monitoring. But, then again, there are some horse owners, who think the more stuff you can get into their horse the better it is and if the vet doesn't leave you with a whole lot of stuff, he isn't doing his job. I think there is a time and place for everything and as horse owners we need to have information available to make informed decisions as to what constitutes proper care of our horses.

I also think that the members here on HA have more on the ball because we are more educated because of Dr. O's articles and advice and the feedback we get from each other. The vets we deal with sometimes get intimidated because we sometimes know more then they do, especially about the animals we deal with every day and they sometimes take offense when we turn down something that they think we ( our horses) need. But we have to be the ones that are the advocates for our horses and do what we think is right even if it goes against what the vet thinks.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 12:17 am:

Rachelle, I was actually kind of disappointed with my vet when he suggested the drugs based only on an
elevated DP. Hanks weight does have to be monitored very closely, he has even admitted I am doing a good job...he actually was a big influence in getting Hank down to a reasonable weight.

He has told me many times he wishes other horse owners would listen to him about obesity. He said he has clients with horses that are foundering and will feed them a big scoop of sweet feed as he is standing there preaching about diet. I suppose the poor guy has just got sick of it, and started prescribing meds instead of preaching about better feeding practices.

He said Hank was in good weight. I am friends with my vet and am not afraid to say what I think, he even asks my opinion sometimes

I said, Dan it is kind of scary that you are prescribing meds instead of what is healthy for the horse. He said he knows, but it is the only way he can MAYBE help the horse and that the owners quit using him or complain to the practice that he isn't "doing anything" for the foundering horse other than telling them they have to change the ways they keep their horses. They don't want to hear their horse is fat and can't have all the grass and grain they want and never exercise.(I have a neighbor like that) Dan told her to get the weight off the pony it was fat and that was why it founders...she still turns the pony out on grass and it is so pitiful that pony can't hardly move...she fired Dan for telling her the pony was fat.


Dan was very instrumental in helping Hank in his founder recovery and I am very grateful for that...he is a bit off the wall sometimes tho, but that's OK too, because so am I.

I do feel sorry for vets sometimes they must feel
like banging their heads against the wall at times. He is very aware I ALWAYS ask his input and he gives it freely over the phone, once in awhile I DO wonder about his advice, but he also knows, I know my horses like a book and take everything into consideration.

His WLD disease description didn't fit anything I had ever read about it so I didn't say anything at first...then he looked at me and said you aren't going to say anything??? That's when I told him what I understood it was, and maybe he should read up on it

I'm not totally sure why Hank had a DP bigger than norm, but I am 100% sure he isn't foundering. The vet insisted he was even though he was moving fine, in good weight, no heat in his hooves, no grass, and no grain. I thought it odd for him to say that, so again I just shook my head in silence. Then he questioned me why I disagree and stated the above reasons, then he agreed with me.

I think maybe he was having a bad horse owner day that day.

Hanks DP has disappeared, he is sound and I am riding him. I have no intention of controlling his weight with meds, diet and exercising is working well, he hasn't looked this good in a long time. I can't say if there was a magic med to keep him from foundering I wouldn't use it, but micro managing him is working just fine...tho a pain in the butt sometimes. I would much rather have him out in pasture eating grass, rather than feeding hay, and buying bedding. Come July hopefully he will be able to graze a few hours a day, but right now it is too big of a risk and I have my vet and HA to thank for getting that through my head and being able to enjoy Hank again. Micro managing beats founder by a landslide!

Now if I can ever get his hooves straightened out, I guess they are coming along slowly but surely
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 9:27 am:

Diane, if all you dug out was degenerated or diseased WL then you did not loose any support by digging it out: it offers no real support of the wall.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 1:39 pm:

From what I've been told, when shoes are pulled, the circulation to the feet is improved so perhaps that could also create an increase in D.P.?

I just received this information about a new product: (There are also some other items on the site at the bottom here that may be of interest).

Energetics Brand Announces Release of SILVETRASOL
Revolutionary Hoof Care Product for Thrush, White Line Disease and MORE!
Old Town, Florida, June 5, 2009 - KC La Pierre, RJF, founder of the Institute of Applied Equine Podiatry and Energetics™ Brand products, is pleased to announce the release of a revolutionary hoof antiseptic: SILVETRASOL. This ALL NATURAL, ANTIMICROBIAL, colorless, odorless topical spray has been tested worldwide and proven effective against bacteria, fungus, and viruses found on the equine hoof. And it's AFFORDABLE!

SILVETRASOL works ten times more quickly than most other hoof care products used to kill bacteria, including commonly used Lysol or Clorox. SILVETRASOL kills most harmful bacteria in less than 30 seconds, and the fungus often present in white line infections in less than 10 minutes. SILVETRASOL contains a high concentration of sub-nanometer sized (0.65nm) silver particles and silver ions (.00015%). The total silver content typically consists of 75% silver particles and 25% silver ions.

SILVETRASOL is only approved for topical use on hooves. Energetics™ Brand Products are developed based upon the theories and sciences of the Institute of Applied Equine Podiatry, which is dedicated to Whole Horse Hoof Care.

To order SILVETRASOL or other Energetics™ Brand Products, including Perfect Hoof Wear (the non-cast alternative to replace horseshoes and boots), visit www.perfecthoofwear.com.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 4:35 pm:

Seems many people think "Food = Love" when it comes to dogs, cats, horses, etc. I find those people often have unruly children, perhaps even overweight children...They find it difficult to say no and be the "bad guy"... I micromanage the feeding on my three I think. I wish they could be out 24/7 also, but it would kill the Haflingers in no time...They get grass and hay. Almost no grain. If they have had more work than usual, I will bang their feed box with 1/4 to 1/2 cup of Purina Strategy and that's more reward than necessity if they have done well.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 8:21 pm:

All,

In my barefoot travels over the last several years, I have at times used Perfect Hoofwear and found in most cases it worked well. I used it because my trimmer was trained by KC La Pierre in the HPC trim. This stuff rolls on ( After being wetted) like vetrap and it grows the foot out much more quickly than normal. It worked well in situations where my horses were not being worked hard on a stonedust track, worked better on the dirt track and great when rehabbing my horses feet (little work, lots of turn out). The only downside was that my horses tended to slip on concrete surfaces.

Diane, this might be something to consider for Hank, if he continues to have any problems with his shoes or WLD. They have a medicated version of the Perfect Hoofwear as well. Because of the way it goes on the foot it protects much of the sole with little to no sole pressure and depending on the amount of work can be left on for several weeks.

Rachelle
New Member:
fame

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 11:33 am:

After reading all above, please advise me .
I have two horses - Violino , never with shoes and Trubador shoed by the breeder , but I took shoes off when I got him - 4 years ago. He chipped his right front hoof on a metal hook last year. It got better and worse and now I am suspecting thrush - cracks appearing and the "p" wall is not growing out . I soaked all four legs with Clean trax . According to Pete Ramey. He recommends soaking three times a week and when healed, ones week . This is costly and time consuming process . I bought "easy soak" boot which covers only the foot . Only after I discovered that there are soaking boots which go all the way up to the knees . Is it important to use those high ones ? I don't even think the horse will accept those easily... Can I switch to "Tomorrow" or betodine or 50/50 antibiotic/athletes foot cream or Silvetrasol ?
My next question is humidity . my horses are out 24 hours , stable open of they with to go in - thy sleep at night on the shavings . My water pool has muddy patch and it is rainy season - constant moisture . Must I lock them in the stable ? They and I want like it . Or should I put "boots" on the worst foot ? One of those "boots" you describe above ?
Diane, what you've achieved with Hank is amazing !!
Thank you for listening.
Today my trimmer has made a big V cut and cleaned with betodine - it went about 1 - 1.5 cm deep and 1 - 2 mm diameter.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 12:23 pm:

Hi Farrell if you only knew how far Hanks hooves have come! Thank you.

I can only comment on my experience, boots made Hanks hooves worse, I guess by trapping the moisture. How I finally got rid of the whole mess was by cleaning them and digging all diseased looking stuff out twice a day and alternating thrush buster and Tomorrow every other day....both of them have some water proofing ability. The most important factor was getting his hoof in better form. I still put either thrush buster or Tomorrow on his hooves twice a week, is very wet here too, it keeps the thrush away so far. Like you I don't like to stable them, but they do have a dry place to spend time in. I keep their paddock and lean-to very dry, with clean bedding in the lean to.

If you start your own thread and post pictures of the hoof, I am sure you could get some very good advice. HA helped get Hank sound, barefoot, and a nice hoof to boot...Only took 4 years Of course he had multiple problems
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 5:51 pm:

Hello Farrell,
Let me help you get started off right as there are several advantages to you if discussions are kept separate:
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Thanks for helping us stay organized.
DrO
PS, by copying your post you can easily paste it into a new discussion.
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New Member:
fame

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 6:03 pm:

Diane, thanks for sharing your experience . Will look into it and will try to take some pictures . We did have sick computer and pictures in the past couldn't be sent .
Not only Hanks hoofs, but your work in liberty training with Henk is great .
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