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Discussion on Founder, colic or something else
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 4:44 pm:
DrO. You don't hear about Sam too much he has been a very healthy horse in 20 yrs I have owned him. I think he is about 22 yo possibly 23. I believe he has cushings and is very definitely IR. He had a bout of laminitis with no rotation about 5 yrs. ago I think.
The last week or so he hasn't been acting himself, has a glazed over look in his eye, the arab spunk...not there, can hardly walk up a hill without stopping 10 times and resting his back leg? When I feed him he was acting like it hurt to put his neck down (like when they have a vaccination soreness) except he has not had a vaccination. His vitals are all normal, I can not detect any bounding digital pulse, or heat in his hooves. He just isn't himself but I can't finger it.
SOOO to get to the point, since he has been acting weird and stiff I decided it was time for the "spring lock up" just in case. Hank and Sam have been going in the drylot during the day and I lock them in the lean-to/paddock at night for the last 3 days.
This morning when I went out to give them their hay and pellets Sam was acting like he was colicking. He didn't want his pellets and was pawing profusely, finally he laid down quietly (no rolling) He has never colicked in the 20 yrs. I've owned him (that I've seen anyway) so this through a bit of panic into me. I checked his vitals which were surprisingly normal. DP's fine and no heat. Normal gut sounds to my ear...not wonderful at that but it wasn't "overly active" and I could hear sounds on both sides.
I threw some hay in the lean to for Hank and came in the house and called the vet on his cell phone(wasn't office hours yet) and left a message.
Went back out, and there he was standing, eating hay with Hank . Since I didn't know if he was impacted, gassy or neither I put his halter on and took him out to walk...he walked just like a foundering horse UGGH. Now this horse has not touched grass in 3 days and gets no grain..I honestly can not detect a DP or heat!
Vet returned my call he kept thinking I was talking about Hank. Finally I got it through his head it was SAM. he said that's weird he has no history of this (I KNOW) but if you could see him walk, founder would pop right in your head. I told him of all my finding when I examined him and he said he could come out, but from my description he felt he would probably just give him banamine. OK so I decided to wait on the banamine and keep an eye on him. I came home every hour and he was munching hay and looking more like himself.(no banamine) When I got home this afternoon he is moving normal and his araby self...What do you make of this??? I WOULD pass it off as a gas colic except the founder walk he was doing and his strange behavior this last week.
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Member:
annes
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Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 5:56 pm:
Diane, when my older TB first started having mild choke episodes, it looked a lot like colic. He paws and then circles and tries to lay down. My horse eats too fast and will cause this and then it clears up within 15 to 20 minutes. Now I can manage him and it hasn't happened in a long long time but I remember it always looked like colic until I figured out what was happening. I hope Sam continues to improve.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 6:14 pm:
Thanks Ann, Hank acts like that when choking also. I did consider this, but ruled it out.
Sam didn't touch his breakfast, he was pawing when I went out, since they are on a "diet" I'm sure their hay was cleaned up long before this morning. He's just been "weird for a week or so, I even commented to hubby that something was "up" with him.
Vet said maybe it is related to his cushings, I guess this time of year can be hard on them. I hope he stays normal too...he's always been the one who has never had any problems. I've never had to have a vet for him except once...in 20 yrs that's a pretty good record...hope he isn't going to start making up for it!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 6:59 am:
DianeE, you sum it up: he was not acting right but you cannot just figure it. There was one clear episode of distress that could have been colic or choke. But you feel you have ruled the choke out.
Do we know what his vital signs (TPR) were during the weird time?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 7:25 am:
Thanks Dr.O. YES it has been acting like colic, but he acts like founder too
I think the mystery solved, this morning he has some BIG DP's and is walking tenderly again. I wonder if what I saw yesterday morning was the beginning of laminitis. The red herring of "founder" Hank has no DP's it is strange for Sam to founder, his weight is Good, even the vet commented when he was here last what a good job I had done with him and how he looked 10 yrs. younger.
Maybe the cushings is progressing enough to make this happen. He has not shed off as much as usual (I have had to clip him the last 5 yrs.) He usually looses at least the long curly hair, he hasn't shed all of that yet this year.
I have run out of pure grass hay and what I have left is about 40% alfalfa. I have been transitioning them to this slowly over the last mo. with no problems. HMMMM I wonder if it is the alfalfa doing it??? I have some 2 yr. old grass hay, think I'll dig that out and see if it helps.
Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 11:59 am:
Hope Sam will be okay, Diane.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 11:30 pm:
Thanks Vicki . Since I thought maybe it was the alfalfa, I went and dug out a few bales of grass hay early this morning. They got it for breakfast and supper. This evening his DP is way down...not quite "normal" but much "quieter". He is moving much better too. That was a close call I think, I guess the boy can't have much alfalfa! He seemed OK on it when I was mixing it with grass hay.
In retrospect when he started acting "weird" is about the same time I eliminated the grass hay.
They love to keep us on our toes, guess I'll have to hunt down some grass hay somewhere, that will be a chore this time of year.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 9:04 am:
Diane - My TWH mare will founder off the alfalfa base used in supplements. If she smells someone cutting alfalfa a mile down the road - she will founder. I gave her a supplement - think it was probably a ounce - alfalfa supplement - the morning after her 2nd feeding with it I went out and she was in the famous founder stance. She has had a total of 15 or 16 founder episodes - all caused by alfalfa - the last few caused by people who did't know or who didn't believe what would happen. If Sam is sensitive to alfalfa I would be really careful to see that he doesn't get any. I don't know if the effects build up or not but with Fox they certainly seemed to. Good luck - it ain't no fun a'tall.
Cheryl
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 12:10 pm:
Sorry to read of Sam's difficulties Diane. Is he on Pergolide? The capsules that I mail order are not that expensive. I just went to hear one of our local vets talk about Cushing's horses and she said that some of the first symptoms can be long coats and laminitis. The Pergolide will help a lot.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 3:42 pm:
Cheryl, it would appear he can tolerate a little alfalfa, I really have been mixing it in for at least a month with no problems. Since I was getting low on grass hay I wanted to save that for Tubo mare, with the tendon problem.
Thanks Jo Ann, he is not on pergolide there really hasn't been a need for it, he is very healthy other than having to clip him. The expense of pergolide isn't the problem, I just don't like giving drugs if he is manageable otherwise. Hopefully removing the alfalfa will do it! He still is improving slowly.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 9:48 am:
It needs to be noted that Cheryl's experience is highly unusual and should be looked upon as a unique event. In general alfalfa, when the energy and protein needed, is a good forage for horses prone to founder as it is low in NSC's (12% in one study) compared with many of our grass hays.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 11:53 am:
DrO. I know I have read that alfalfa is low NSC's. In this area anyway I have a hard time believing it.
For a couple years we had more hay than the cows needed, so we decided to sell the square bales at auction, I believed my horses wouldn't tolerate it well. To get a decent price at auction you need to have it analyzed. Everytime it was analyzed the NSC's were around a whopping 32%. I was very glad I decided not to feed it to my horses!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 10:23 am:
Diane,
I have read wide ranging numbers and wonder exactly what they are measuring to be at such a disparity with what is listed in NRC tables of 12%. Some labs test for nonfibrous carbohydrates (NFC’s) and using this as a measure of nonstructural carbohydrates (NSC’s) which overestimates the levels of rapidly digested carbs in horses but less so in cattle.
When reading about the subject of measuring NSC's there is currently a lot of controversy. And when trying to understand the significance as to how it relates to founder puts you in the arena of conjecture. Throw in the poorly digested fermentable NSC's and the role of the indigestible NSC's (like fructans) that the founder inducing bacteria can use as a feed source and discussion sounds more like a attempt at obfuscation. In short I think a lot of observation can be explained that it is not the NSC’s and subsequent hyperglycemia that induce founder in sensitive horses but instead a combination of obesity, insulin resistance, and fructan-type carbs that do. All of this is covered in detail in the various articles on these subjects. I would like to see the whole analysis of your samples if possible.
From what I know about your horses we don’t need any of this to predict trouble from a rich feed fed to your horses. Your horse’s are easy keeping and prone to obesity and have no business on alfalfa. With no science than my observation of horses over the years, I would predict this would be trouble for your horses.
In dozens of cases over several decades I have successfully used alfalfa extensively in Cushings Horses with weight loss problems. For me it was the original high energy low NSC forage before we were aware of what NSC's were.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 11:48 am:
Dr.O. those analysis got thrown away a few years ago. We don't put up squares anymore.
I know my horses should not have alfalfa for the reasons you stated above. What I was giving them was no more than 40% alfalfa, because I am running very low on grass hay and was saving it for the fat bowed tendon mare Who actually is the only one of the 3 that has never foundered. I did manage to find some decent 2 yr. old grass hay buried in the hay mow. Sam is doing much better now with the removal of the alfalfa.
I agree if you want to put weight on horses alfalfa will do it and it is a great feed for those not prone to obesity. There has to be something in that stuff that puts weight on them! If it isn't carbs then what is it??? If my horses love something it is usually sugary, and alfalfa would be at the top of their list as far as favorites! Told hubby to feed my 40% alfalfa hay to the replacement heifers!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 6:49 am:
Besides digested carbohydrates and absorbed sugar, there are two other important sources of energy from legumes like alfalfa.
1) Protein not essential for protein systhesis is matabolized to energy and contains the same energy density as do carbohydrates.
2) Much of the structural carbohydrates cannot be digested by the horses enzymes but are fermented to fattty acids and are then absorbed. Essentially these "nondigestible" carbs are converted to fat by the bacteria that then can be absorbed and used by the horse.
This last process can account for as much as 60% of the energy content of stemmy forages.
DrO
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