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Discussion on 2009 colt with lateral angular deformity
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 12:18 am:
Well, this is one of those things that breeders (even VERY small breeders like myself) try to hide behind the barn. No one wants the word to get out that their mare had a foal with a deformity that may or may not be genetic. But, this site is for giving and getting information and I know that I've found the other posts on this topic very helpful so I'm hoping my post can be of help to others. As well, any advice from Dr. O or other members will be welcomed and discussed with my vet.
So, a little history for those that did not see the "More Belly Shots" post. This foal was born early on Saturday morning. He had a little more trouble than usual getting up to nurse but got things figured out quickly and was getting around well by the end of the day. He had both flexural and angular deformities but it was hard to tell which was worse that day. Today is day 4 and the view from the side is quite a bit better making the angular deformity more apparent although that seems to be improving a bit on it's own, as well. Might just be wishful thinking, though!
A vet visit yesterday met with a disappointed vet as she was very much looking forward to the arrival of this foal, too. But, you get what you get and learn from it. We discussed possible causes and her opinion is that it is usually nutritional and possibly genetic. After discussing my feeding program her first reaction was that it wasn't a nutritional problem although we will be discussing this in more detail as I'm not altogether convinced this doesn't have something to do with the mare's age (she's 23 years young) and her changing needs.
Although this mare has always had correct foals (that I'm aware of) and the stallion is the same I guess there's always the possibility that the combination of the two had something to do with this so the decision has been made not to breed back to him as I'd originally planned so the hunt is on for my new perfect match. Since we don't know if this is genetic or not, even if he straightens out perfectly, this colt will be gelded for sure when he's old enough.
So, for our course of action; my vet did bring up oxytet for discussion but she believes that the flexural contracture is not nearly as concerning as the angular problem and is self correcting. She does not feel that oxytet would have much effect on the angular issues. We also discussed splinting, corrective shoes and surgery. She does not feel that this is a bone issue but we'll be doing x-rays to be sure. He will be allowed to be a horse until he's two weeks old and we'll watch for any additional signs of change (positive or negative) then a splinting regime will be started and his progress will be evaluated as time goes on. After a month of splinting, if there is not significant progress, we may discuss our surgical options.
Here are our first pictures for comparison:
About 5 hours old
3 days old
About 5 hours old
3 days old
And for added measure here's a short video (I hope!) of his movement this morning at 4 days old:
https://picasaweb.google.com/sdmsears/Legs02#5340553351634041618
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 12:40 am:
Sara, I can only imagine how disappointing and discouraging this is. Such a nice colt in so many other ways--neck, shoulder, hip, that cute head and as we discussed--COLOR! It sounds as if your vet is on top of things and you have a plan. All of us Aunties will be hoping for the best right along with you! I'm hoping Dr. O will comment as well. Wish I had some helpful advice, but no experience to draw from. I do think I've seen remarkable improvement with early intervention. Keep posting and keep your chin up!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 7:41 am:
Hello Sara M,
While most of these will be fine with you doing just what you are doing, the next step should be based on a diagnois that will take a radiograph. If I understand your post correctly, I appreciate her feelings this may not be a immature carpal bone but if it is, then enforced rest while it ossifies will improve the long term prognosis. Even if this is growth plate problems exact measurements can help with deciding on the surgical options and this is discussed in detail in the article.
I don't believe these type events are genetic and with the lack of other symptoms I doubt nutrition accounts for it either, other than possibly over-nutrition. What is the mares body condition? It is best to just concede we really don't know why some are more crooked than can self correct easily and realize there are surgical options. Quite frankly I am always amazed when they are born perfectly straight. How does mother nature do that?
DrO
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 7:50 am:
Hi Sara,
He's such a cute little guy! I sure hope he straightens up for you before you have to resort to surgery.
Good luck & keep us posted!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 7:58 am:
Hi Sara,
When will you be doing radiographs? I'd think the sooner the better, just to know what you're dealing with, and whether he can go out or not.
Unless you see a pattern of this in certain bloodlines, I don't know whether I'd go so far as to change my breeding plans. There really isn't evidence that I've seen that this is genetic. FWIW, the only pattern I've seen in my program is that one mare produces ALD foals from the right horn of the uterus. When we settle her on the other side, they come out straight. Too small a sample to mean anything, but I find that interesting.
As you know, I've dealt with ALD (and contracture, and laxity) several times, so far with non-surgical early intervention, and excellent outcomes. My "worst" case is now 3, well started under saddle, and quite a remarkable athlete. It's uncomfortable to watch and worry about these babies, but many of them do come straight with the proper early care.
I'm with DrO-- at this stage, I have no idea why any of them come out right, long legs and all.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 8:39 am:
Thanks, Dr. O for weighing in. I guess I did forget to mention that he's not getting turned out like he normally would. He's not confined to a stall but is confined to a small paddock with a shelter. Your opinion does give me hope and comfort of a good outcome. This mare can be a hard keeper; probably because of her age. I was able to keep her between a 5 and 6 body score during her pregnancy up until about the last month when it began to DrOp. I would say right now she's a 4 to 5 but we're working on that.
Elk, when you say your "worst" case was that the baby that was windswept behind? I seem to remember reading a post and seeing a picture of a foal that would have truly given me a heart attack to find! Your posts have been VERY encouraging. The radiographs are actually planned for the first day we will put the splints on, the 8th of June. Because the vet wanted him without splints this first two weeks (with confinement) she didn't want to take radiographs on Tuesday just to have to take them again before we splint to see any changes that might have occurred. She's always very helpful at looking out for the well being of my pocket book, too.
I did read that we never really know what causes these foals but I the thing that really had my confused was my foal LAST year. She came out almost twice this little guy's size and straight as an arrow. Now, that's one you'd a thought would have been cramped for space!
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 8:43 am:
Julie and Fran, thanks for the compliments and encouragement.
Julie, I've been thinking over the last few days that you're the smart one. You get to see and choose your babies before they're yours. I'm playing a crap shoot! I suppose I'd miss it, though, if I weren't breeding my own. You know...the stud fees, the year round mare care, the sleepless nights on foal watch, the stress over babies that are perfect.... Hmmmmm...I think you ARE onto something! 
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 8:52 am:
Hmmm...my post went "poof-o" so I'll try again. He's a cutie, and in the video he sure seems alert, and acts like he's dealing with his legs just fine.
Best of luck for a good outcome.
Ang
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 9:01 am:
Hi Sara,
If you want to e-mail me privately, I can send you the ugly photos of that filly! She was so terrifying that I hauled her to Littleton at 2 weeks old in 100'F with a surgery on the books. They sent her home shaking their heads-- radiographs don't lie, and she was mathematically straight on radiograph, even though she was almost unbearable to look at. Early radiographs can bring great peace of mind, or they can encourage you to move up the schedule.
We leveled her feet carefully every other day and I was very careful with turnout. I confined her in a stall for much longer than I could stand. Today she is spectacular. Don't want to jinx her, but she really looks like an FEI candidate, and just came back from 3 days in the mountains, sound as a bell and full of herself.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 3:12 pm:
Sara - best wishes for a good outcome for that beautiful colt. Keeping my fingers crossed for you,
Lilo
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 10:29 pm:
The contracture issue seems to be getting better on that video. I hope you keep photo-posting as he improves. It seems from the postings the chances are better than not.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 1:56 pm:
Well, the contracture issue is almost completely corrected and I'm sure we can take care of the ALD with splinting. Here are a couple of pictures from this morning.
He is holding his legs more directly underneath himself so it appears as if he's more knock-kneed but I don't believe the angle of the deformity is increasing. His legs are beginning to rotate in where his toes were quite turned out before so the ALD is more obvious from the front.
And this one he took a step toward me just as I was snapping the shot.
"Hey...whatcha doin? Can I help?"
It's pretty obvious I'm going to need an assistant from now on when taking pictures.
"Yup, pretty sure I can help."
"Look what good help I am!!"
I guess I'm going to have to be more stealthy when taking pictures in the future!
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 4:13 pm:
Great pics! Contracture is coming out fine. Thank you for posting them. It might be fun to start a thread where we all post our "nose to the lense" pictures. What do you think 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 4:34 pm:
I have to say that with homemade splints, usually heat treated pvc to conform to the leg, I did not have a lot of luck but you have time on your side and if you don't get a response periosteal stripping is quick, easy, and always worked for me.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 5:00 pm:
Sara,
I am of the same opinion as Dr.O, it amazes me that sometimes babies can come out correct. Most have an issue with something or other. I was surprised when I looked at the photos that your baby looked so good even if his legs were a bit splayed out.
My 2008 colt looked like a daddy longlegs with broken legs. He had one front and one rear leg that went sideways from the ankle joints down( I wish I took pictures). His pasterns were so long his ankles scraped on the ground.
Early intervention with glue on foal extensions and restricted turnout turned him around. It took a while, but by the time he was 4 months old you wouldn't even know he had a problem.
He is now 14 months old and will be coming into the barn to start his basic training as a pretty correct individual. He still looks like a daddy long legs but at least his legs are straight.
Your foal will be fine, you are starting early and have a good handle on it.
Rachelle
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 5:13 pm:
Thanks Dr. O and Rachelle. My vet and I have discussed the periosteal stripping as the next step if the splints don't work. The home-made PVC splints are the ones we're going with. We've got a game plan; I just hope the colt wants to play the same game! He's already got a serious attitude.
While at the vet the other day (day 3 of life, mind you) I squatted down next to him while he was nursing to scratch his shoulder. Apparently, I was annoying him while he was trying to eat because he pinned his ears, bared his gums and snaked his little neck at me! I was so caught off guard and laughing so hard he got away with it twice before he got scolded.
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Member:
kshayden
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 10:23 am:
I didn't have good luck with the splints as they actually caused more damage than they fixed. Of course the vet that charged me 1300$ that splinted him didn't heat them to his legs and placed them on the back of his legs rather than the front the 1st 12 hours and the 2nd set when he was 24 hours old went on the front. Both sets caused irrepairable damage to his knees, ankles and coronet bands. The PS surgery was an immediate success with no further treatment. My vet did the surgery at the house. It was quick and easy and cheap ($150). His severe contracture however took alot of time and he is a year old today and still not correct. The damage done by the splints to the coronet causes his hoof to grow funny on his right and though xrays showed he was not club footed, he is severe in his left due to his upright cannon and fetlock. He saw many vets and farriers and the only thing they could agree on is the last guy did it wrong. Half said to euthanize The one thing that stood out is each time an expert messed with him, he was very lame for several days or weeks. When we left him alone, he was better. So, he is on pasture and may stay that way for life. Good luck with your baby. Kathy
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 1:43 pm:
Hi Sara, Like some of the others that posted, I too have seen foals worse than yours that turned out just fine with treatment - usually just splinting. I don't believe it's genetic or, esp. in your case, nutritional. I have a friend who is a well known breeder with several National halter and performance champions in her barn that she has bred and raised. She has had two foals born very "twisted" or wind-swept, both of them from champion mares that produced beautiful foals. He vet was of the opinion that it has more to do with the size of the foal and position it lies in while in the womb; so I think, like Dr.O. says, it's really just "luck." In one foal's case, the front foot was trimmed a little every day and the leg straightend out; the other leg required casting for a couple of weeks (I think it was.)
Our local vet had a foal come in last year that was so bad you wondered how it could even walk. I saw it as a yearling and he's beautiful!
I agree with Rachelle, with early intervention he'll be fine! He is SO pretty with such a great head. Evidently he has quite a personality, too! LOL!
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 1:10 am:
"Pretzel", that was the name of the colt of a friend, born back in the eighties. The legs were so twisted, that the colt could barely stand. We used to assist the colt in rising. The vet recommended splinting ( back in the "dark ages" of twisted foal leg medicine ). It looked so barbaric to us ( the casting )....but eventually, "Pretzel" lost his nickname. He did just fine in the show ring in the ensuing years, and fathered many a straight-legged baby. Who knows the exact cause? Last Feburary, I assisted in my neighbor's birth of a calf. We had to pull it out with chains. The calf was HUGE and twisted and we thought it was dead....but I saw the eyelid move, and we blew our brains out into the calf's nose and mouth....and it moved. "AB" is a real character, now. ( AB = A$$ Backwards ). But, boy, you should have seen those twisted legs in the beginning! Straight as an arrow, now.
There has been so much breeding for size over the years, that it's not so unusual for some limb deformities to occur all over the place. Give your baby some time and, following your vet's recommendations, lets see what occurs.
At two days old, let's hold our ( panic ) judgement. I'm in love with that cutie already! Name, Sara???
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 6:50 am:
There are many causes of deformities and sometimes splinting is strongly indicated for instance if joint instability might lead to damage. The location of the deformity, the structure causing the deformity, and the severity of the deformity all may effect the best treatment. I guess the take home message here is don't think that specific comments about this case can be generalized to others, they may not apply.
DrO
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 9:23 am:
Sara, what a nice colt! I agree with the others... there is still a lot of hope left that he will straighten up and be just fine. I would definitely look into x-rays, splinting him, surgical, etc. I have seen them put splints on babies and have really good results. Good luck! Prayers and thoughts with you.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 12:05 am:
Sara, what color are his eyes? Looks like he could be a "champagne"? He sure looks like a sweetie.
BTW, when I was researching breeding traits in anticipation of Cleo, I recall reading that straightness of legs has a very low heritablility. Meaning that it is usually due to foal position, not genetics. Wish I could remember what source it came from, but trust me, I have an excellent memory for trivia.
My brother used to call me a "walking encyclopedia of useless knowlegdge". Cause a lot of chasing and punching!
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 12:33 pm:
Thanks again everyone for the stories. I'm not nearly as stressed as I was a week ago but am not looking forward to the splinting for a month, either. He's either going to be super broke at the end of the month or hate me...or both!
As far as genetics go, the more I research the more I lean away from that as a cause but I have decided to go with a different stallion this year anyway. He may not be headed for an early castration after all but we'll have to see how he turns out all around.
Kathy, I went back and read your post from last year. I remembered it immediately because I'd posted your first pictures for you. I made the comment that I hadn't had to deal with this before...guess I'll keep those comments to myself from now on. I'm so sorry to hear what a tough time you've had to this point.
Erika, he's not a champagne because as I understand it they're born with blue eyes and his were and are brown. A very pretty brown but brown none the less. I guess it will just be a waiting game to see what he turns out to be.
Splints go on Monday. I'll update with pictures then. Can't wait to see the go-to-hell look he gives me when I take THAT picture!
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 12:52 pm:
lololol, Sara.
Love you. lol . . . gotta have a sense of humor with horses. Can't take ourselves or them too seriously or we'll get hurt emotionally or physically . . .
Can't wait to meet the little turd. Hope I can work it out this summer. He's lovely . . . With his attitude, I think the leg problem is God's way of keeping him humble. Imagine what he'd be like if his legs were perfect!!!!
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 1:14 pm:
Holly, I think you've hit the nail on the head with your reasoning! Did I tell you that he double-barreled me at 5 days old?? One foot on each thigh...two pretty blue bruises to show for it. And one pretty purple bruise on the palm of my hand from spanking him! He must have at least some kind of brain in that pretty little head because those feet haven't come off the ground since.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 1:21 pm:
Sara, good luck with the splinting. Most definitely sounds like your little guy has a BIG attitude!
Of course, it's that attitude that may make him a spectacular show horse if that's the career path he ends up with.
Stop telling him he's so cute - it's all going to his little head!
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 1:43 pm:
ha, ha, Fran . . . Maybe his little head will become SO swollen, he'll tip forward on his cute little nose . . . and be immobile for awhile. That would be a bit humiliating . . . 'cept his feet would be free agents, and I'd hate to see where they next blue spots ended up . . . lol . . .
See, Sara??? Only five days old and already left his mark in someone's life . . . Imagine what mark he will leave in the Show World as a Champion!!!! or as a FABULOUS and FAMOUS Stud!!!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 2:26 pm:
I am more and more leaning towards the opinion that QH's have horns just as all the other horses...Can't wait to find out if next year will bring me sort of a saintly unicorn or a little devil like Sara's is obviously trying to become.[think I personally prefer that type!]
Jos
PS Those pics of him with splints...PLEASE a pic of how he looks at you too?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 3:34 pm:
I'm sure Sara M. is exagerating. With such a cute face how could that little guy be such a problem?
Sara, most of the foals I've been around are very forgiving and take a lot in stride. I think he'll do fine, and with a beer or two you will also. LOL!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 5:52 pm:
Sara - all I can say is "good luck". I sure hope the splinting will do the trick! And - that he won't kick you anymore .....
Lilo
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 9:07 pm:
Er....maybe the splinting is a "Higher Power's" way of keeping YOU safe, Sara.....how're those bruises coming along?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 10:33 pm:
Hi Sara,
I must be weird-- I want my foals to kick me early in life. They all do it, so I prefer to wear smaller "hoof tattoos" than larger ones, and the correction makes a lasting impression. In fact, I will often invite the kick somewhat by crowding them from behind when they look playful or cross, just to get it over with. Consider those marks a "breeder's brand" and carry them with pride.
I have never used splints for longer than 48 hours (to handle a case of persistent knuckling, in conjunction with oxytet), but even then had to be extremely careful about sores below the splints and making sure that I knew exactly how to reapply the splints correctly. Last time, I asked my vet to remove them and let me reapply them as soon as they were on, and I'm glad I did. It looks easy when someone else does it. Soring can be a serious problem, so get good guidance from your vet and make sure you have lots of whatever you need on hand to protect those baby legs!
Let us know how the little duckskin rolls on. I hope your weather is better than ours right now....
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 2:01 pm:
Sara W., I'm sure you know too well that the little ones with those precious, innocent faces are the most ornery! I do have to admit he is very sweet and friendly...about 90% of the time. That other 10% keeps me on my toes. He and Highball (2 yr old Coonhound) were playing through the fence for about 10 minutes this morning while I attempted to clean the pens. I wish I had had my camera with me because the cell phone picture is terrible quality.
Jos, Quarter Horses can absolutely have horns. I have a couple like that already. And since you like that kind here's to hoping that you get kicked by your little one next year about this time!
Lee, nope, no name yet. I have called him several things over the last week but I don't think AQHA would approve of any of them. So, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to throw them at me.
Elk...yup, I'd have to agree you're weird! LOL I want them to kick AT me but I'd just as soon not be within reach when they do it. I do suppose, though, my reaction had a little more "oomph" behind it after he connected! Not sure what kind of weather you were getting but we got dumped on all day yesterday. Right now we've got about 4 inches of mud which will hopefully dry up quickly today with the sun shine and 80 mph winds!
I ordered a lot of supplies last week that should arrive today so I should be stocked up to handle the splinting. We've discussed 12 on/12 off and 24 on/12 off but I haven't decided which way will be our best option yet. Obviously, the latter will be the easier option but I'll talk to the vet more after the x-rays to see what kind of schedule we should work with.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 11:55 pm:
So, today was the day. Vet came out this evening and we splinted the little monster for the first of many times over the next month. The plan is to start with 12 on and 12 off then move to 24 on and 12 off depending on the progress. The inside of the affected joints are padded quite a bit so we will have to experiment with the amount of padding and possibly splint one leg at a time because the padding rubs and bumps when he walks.
He stood up like a big boy to have both legs splinted. Then he fired one off in David's direction after he was let go. David was prepared (he learned from my experience) and pushed his little behind away then spanked him. I think the splints just give him more support in front to be able to kick harder! Actually, that's the first time he's kicked since his spanking when he kicked me. He was obviously pretty ticked off.
The next thing he did was go tearing around the pen full speed like he'd been wearing the splints his whole life. This caused us to re-evaluate the size of the pen and cut it in half. When he continued to do laps around his mom we threatened to cut the pen even farther and he quit. Actually, as much as I'd like to say he listens well, I think he just wore himself out!
And here's his little ticked off head shake as he was trying to figure out how to lay down.
The funniest part of the process (other than the fact that he could run so freakin' well) was the reaction of the other horses to the swishing of the splints as they rubbed and the little galloping fool with huge legs. They pranced and snorted for a while then finally settled down to watch intently...just in case the evil creature decided to visit their pen!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 5:56 am:
Sara, the pics of the other horses watching is so funny. How did mom react to them?
And how do they lay down and get up?
He is one handsome guy, hope all goes well with the splinting
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 6:46 am:
Good luck with the splints Sara. He actually looks really cute in them - and has shown you he can definitely MOVE in them! Such a lovely (and deceptively angelic!) face.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 1:37 pm:
Deceptively angelic is the perfect description for his look, LL!
Diane, mom was a little concerned for about 5 seconds. She really is the absolute BEST mare ever. She trotted across the pen when he was running and then he followed her. Then she looked back at him as if to say, "Oh, it's just you." Then, after he reared up on her with his clubs, she looked as us as if to say, "You gave him WEAPONS???"
I think getting up is actually easier than laying down. He just gets his hind legs under him and his front legs out straight in front and pops himself up. To lay down he pretty much just falls sideways. We've got the shed bedded pretty deep in straw and he's smart enough to lay down in there instead of on the hard dirt.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 3:08 pm:
Sara M, he is just SO CUTE! I know he just must have an evil twin that pops out now and then to confuse you; it just couldn't be him. Just look at that face!
Boy, keep that mare. Those wonderful mares are worth their weight in gold. They do wonders for their foals and teach them to approach life in a more relaxed attitude imo.
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 3:23 pm:
LOL at 'Weapons'! Poor mom! hehe Gotta love those mamas!
He is such a nice colt. So glad the splinting went well. Too funny about the other horses looking at him too. Thanks for sharing. Please keep us posted with more pics as he progresses. 
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 6:52 pm:
LOL
I can only agree and giggle (...gave him weapons?!)
He is just soooo darn cute. and the pics of the other staring at him is priceless!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 8:59 pm:
He is a very handsome little guy. Amazing how he figured out to run with those splints on.
Hope this all works out (and he gets over his kicking habit).
Lilo
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 9:23 pm:
WOW, wow, he IS one heck of a looker. Can we please see him grow up? I want to see what that head grows into....ADONIS?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 9:55 pm:
He is gorgeous...maybe you should call him Ashton Kutcher
...or Ashton Crutcher
TeeHee
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 12:10 am:
LMAO at Ashton Crutcher! That is toooo funny! We were kind of leaning toward Forrest after last night's display. 
Lee, you can definitely see him grow up. And hopefully you'll hear about him growing into a very well behaved horse. I hope he doesn't figure out how to get online out at the shed...all these compliments are going to make him top heavy from the big head.
Sara, this mare is definitely worth her weight in gold. I hate that she came to us so late in her life. I'm SO hoping she'll present us with her clone before she decides it's time to go.
I'll probably wait a week to post the next pictures. Vet says it may be two weeks before we see any kind of improvement, though.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 9:46 am:
One week down ??? to go! Little Forrest has been in and out of splints for one week now and I'm already seeing improvement. And, he's holding the improvement in the knees while the splints are off. I sent pictures to the vet this morning and we'll discuss whether we go to 24 on rather than 12 on as well as shoes to help with the knees and turned out toes.
Here's a pictures from last night just before the splints went on:
And one from this morning after they came off:
You can see that the fetlocks are slightly more lax after the splints come off but that they strengthen back up quickly by the end of the day.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 1:41 pm:
Hey, look, all 4 legs on the ground!
Glad the splints are helping. Does he have rotation all the way from the elbow, or is that just the way he's muscling because of the ALD? What did the radiographs show?
I hope this works, and am intrigued by the approach. I've only done very short-term splinting to prevent knuckling in the fetlock with contracture (good outcome).
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 7:15 am:
The right fore in particular seems much better than the first images. Thanks for keeping us appraised.
DrO
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 11:06 am:
WOW great to see the improvement! Big pats on the back to you for sticking with the splinting... I know it must be very difficult. So glad to see that it looks like he is on his way to a great outcome. Keep up the good work! 
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 12:39 pm:
This is an interesting thread. What did the radiographs show? ...sharon
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 1:06 pm:
I hope this works, too, Elizabeth. I'd hate to go through all of this just to end up in surgery, anyway.
There is a slight rotation all the way from the elbow but, you're right, the muscling is a bit different because of the way he bears weight on the legs. I've got a call in to find out about the glue-on shoes with the tabs and I'm also looking into custom built equilox foot extension recommended by my vet. Does anyone have experience with either of these products? Hmmm...might have to start another thread to ask that question. Anyway, I think that something like this would help to improve not only the leg angle but also the outward rotation of the toe. The vet also thinks that as the limbs correct and he develops more normal weight bearing down the boney columns the toe-out should begin to correct on it's own.
I did forget to mention earlier that the radiographs came back showing no bone abnormalities so that's definitely a plus.
Jennifer, thanks for the kudos...the splinting is definitely a pain in the a$$. BUT, it was SO nice to be able to step back and take a hard look and see the improvement already when we didn't expect to see anything for another week.
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 8:26 am:
I would be careful about the toe out. I don't know if this pertains to your colt, but I had one that toed out when he was a weanling until about 2 years old. We kept trimming him to fix the toe out and ended up with him suddenly starting to toe in (this was a result in just one trim). He's now 4 and we've had to trim for his toe in ever since. I don't know if gaining muscle with age had any effect at all or what. He has a very wide chest now, so the toeing in might actually help him support his bulk better. Just my experience, and I only had my farrier involved perhaps if I had a vet things would have worked out differently, and I'm sure that you have things well in hand. That aside, your baby is very nice. I know what it's like to have a baby with legs like that, and it's a heartache. I opted for the perisoteal stripping, and it was amazing how fast it worked. In 2 weeks the legs were almost straight. One didn't straightened quite all the way, but most people didn't notice until I pointed it out to them. I've been watching your threads and are rooting for you.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 10:49 am:
Hello Karen,
Let's point out that in the above image the whole leg turns out and the hooves appear to be in line with the rest of the leg this should not be changed. However when rotational deformities in the foal occur from the fetlock down this will respond to corrective trimming. I don't think this is covered as well as it should be in the article and will put it on my list of updates this week or next week at the latest.
DrO
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 12:28 pm:
Here's our weekly photo update.
This was taken last night before the splints went on:
And this morning immediately after they came off:
There is some slight improvement but not as obvious as the first week. There's also some slight puffiness in both knees toward the top of the joint on the inside front. The left is a bit worse than the right but there's no heat. I've got a call into the vet to ask how to proceed. At this point I'm not sure if I should put the splints on tonight and just use extra padding or skip a night. She's out of the office today so I'm keeping my fingers crossed I'll hear back before splinting time.
I also spoke with the farrier that was recommended by my guy. He's reviewed the photos and says that it's possible that shoeing/equilox extensions might not help our problem since the issues are in the knee and not lower. Regardless, he doesn't feel that anything should be done foot-wise until the colt is 6 weeks old as it might have unwanted effects on the feet and pasterns. I'll be back in touch with him in a couple of weeks.
Dr. O, any advice you have at this point would be appreciated. Do you have an opinion on how long this type of splinting can be done with continued improvement before we have to resort to surgery? Any opinion on the swelling in the knees? He had 2 ccs of Bute last night at about 5:30. In your opinion should we splint tonight or give him a break?
Thanks in advance!
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 7:26 pm:
SaraM
Check out this poditry specialist, if you get a chance... https://www.nanric.com/index.asp
He has some interesting articles and also products for foal angular deformities.
Also Nav, Lam, founder etc..
He is putting on a seminar near me, I thought Id go till I saw its 2500.00 to audit the class.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 7:38 pm:
I misread and thought the fee was $250. I was going to suggest we all help send you and you can post what was said, or make a tape. Sorry, for $2500 I think you might be on your own!
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 8:34 am:
Thanks for the website, Leslie. I'd read a lot about the shoes with extensions but never seen a site with a showroom of them. Pretty neat and worth looking into. I'm with Sara Wolff, though, for $2500 I could take him in for the bridging surgery and be done with it!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 8:41 am:
Hello SaraM,
What do the radiographs suggest as the cause of the angular deformity and what degree of angulation is the leg. With these answers the article should be able to answer your question. If it remains unclear let me know what parts you can't figure out.
DrO
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 10:43 pm:
Hi Dr. O. The radiographs showed no abnormalities in the bones so the ligaments have been determined to be the cause of the angular deformity. The legs started at about 22-24 degrees off straight and we're down to about 15-17 degrees off straight after two weeks of splinting. I did find your recommendations regarding surgery in the article. I knew I'd read something about it originally but somehow missed it on my last fly over of the article.
One more quick update. I changed my splinting method on Sunday and instead of wrapping the entire leg in cotton I was only wrapping and padding the joints and points where the splint touched meaning the cannon bone and forearm were not padded. Well, leave it to him to bang his left splint into his right cannon bone over night last night. He has a knot on the cannon bone and some swelling in his fetlock and pastern but it's already down some tonight. Vet recommended a few days off from splinting and since I'll be out of town for two weeks starting next week we're just going to leave them off until I get back. When we go back to splinting the legs will be fully protected in cotton once again! He'll be 7 weeks old then and we plan to put the Dalric cuffs on him at that time.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 7:06 am:
Whoa Sara, the ligaments? Don't you mean the growth plate or physis? The two are entirely different and there are no surgical corrections for laxity in the ligaments, at least in horses, that I am aware of. Then again none is needed as they self correct. The chief difference on physical exam is the ease with which legs with lax collateral ligaments can be manipulated to normal and then back again. Clinically lax ligaments self correct in a few days while moderate to severe physical deformities are more persistent. Radiographically they are quite different also.
The article discusses these two differentials and before discussing further treatment important to know which of the two we have.
DrO
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 11:50 am:
You're right, Dr. O. I "assumed" (yeah, I know...never do that) that since the radiographs showed no abnormalities in the bones the problem was with the ligaments, however, the legs cannot be easily manipulated to normal. My vet had also suggested bridging surgery as an option which would suggest correction of the growth plate. I'll talk to my vet about the specifics of what the radiographs showed.
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