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  Discussion on Do I have a horse with a neurological problem
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New Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 6:37 pm:

I am in desperate need of help with my 9 yo TWH mare. Diamond tore some tendons just above her left fetlock about a week and a half ago. I first noticed swelling in her left foreleg and limping. Vet came and looked at her and we started routine treatment - limited mobility, bute, cold therapy, DMSO. I would put her in a very small round pen during the day so she could graze and put her in her stall at night so she could be with the other horses. From the time we started this I have had a terrible time getting her up once she is down and a couple times she scared me very badly because I did not think I was going to be able to get her up. Once she is up she is severely ataxic and seems very weak with her rear seeming much weaker than her front. She moves with a very short, stiff gait and has a very difficult time turning - almost falling at times when trying to turn. I can see no evidence of cranial nerve injury or any sign of dementia. She also has severely swollen glands under her jaw. At this point the tendon injury seems the least of her problems.

Last summer she lacerated her cornea which then proceeded to get infected (despite treatment) and it took 5 months to get her healed up. She also had severely swollen glands under her jaw thru out this time. She had some mild stiffness but nothing like she has now. Interestingly enough, last summer my peruvian horse also developed severely swollen glands under his jaw and ataxia where he was terribly stiff and had a very short gait. All of this started in July/August of last summer and eventually both horses got better by Oct./Nov. We drew blood, consulted other equine vets my vet uses and no one had any idea of what was going on. We could not find anything that was poisonous to them in the pasture and the other horses were fine. We tried steriod shots and antihistamines to see if we had an allergy problem with no relief.

In attempt to try to help Diamond my vet had me give her shot of vetalog on Sat. but I have seen no relief from that. I was washed all the Endure fly spray off her wondering if that could the problem - some kind of neuro toxicity from it. I have seen no improvement. We drew blood and the vet said he ran 30 tests and all came back negative except a slightly elevated CK (that he figured was from the tendon injury).

This horse is really suffering and I am desperate to find out if there is any way I can help her. If not, I do not want to prolong her suffering and will put her down. Please help me!!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 8:40 pm:

How I wish that I could help and hope that someone can.

That a similar thing happened about a year ago could imply some kind of sensitivity to something in the environment or diet.

I would look again very closely at every single thing that the horse is exposed to.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 10:47 pm:

Angela,

Wow how awful. I am so sorry. I don't know what it could be but it sounds like you have ruled out all of the obvious things, like black walnut bedding, or anything she could be exposed to that's poisonous, right? I wonder about lyme disease, encephalitis, etc. also. I would think your vet would have already checked for all of that by now. The swollen glands under the throat... are you sure it wasn't strangles? If untreated, I think it can go internally and cause all kinds of problems but I haven't read up on it in a long time. You really need to dig through the articles on this site if you haven't done so already. Something may stick out to you.

How far from OSU are you? You have one of the leading vet schools/hospitals in the country in your state. Honestly, if I had a horse I really was worried about I would not hesitate in taking them there, if my local vets could not figure it out. They see probably 1000s of horses a year and surely someone there would be able to figure it out.
I am very curious to see what Dr. O says. Thoughts and prayers with you.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 10:58 pm:

A few articles that may help:

Diseases of Nervous System:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/6957.html
Ataxia:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/6957.html
Also, Has your vet ruled out EPM? https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5376.html
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 11:41 pm:

This sounds so dreadful; I'm so sorry your poor horse and you are going through this.

I, too, would really methodically go through everything this horse eats or is in contact with. It is very weird that the same thing happened about the same time a year ago.How are the horse's vital signs? Is there swelling any where else or hives?

Do you switch hay this time of year? Get it from a new supplier? Do you turn the horse out this time of year? Are there new plants coming up in the field that grow or bloom this time of year? Are there trees nearby that shed seeds, cones, leaves this time of year? The swelling speaks, of course, of some kind of inflamation or infection, but I think it can also be caused by a severe allergic reaction or reaction to some toxins. Of course, I'm no vet, and am just racking my brain for something I've either experienced, read, or heard over the years that might be of some help.

I'll be watching to see what the good doctor has to say and for your further posts. I wish you the best. I know how difficult this must be for you.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 11:45 pm:

This site might also be of some help.

https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/15136.html
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 7:41 am:

Welcome Angela,
If you have ataxia and weakness you do have a neurological problem but if there is a question about your assessment of ataxia you need to get a referral to someone who can make this assessment accurately. The list of rule outs for weakness are different than for weakness and ataxia. For more on differentiating ataxia and weakness see Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Diagnosing Incoordination, Ataxia and Weakness.

Bilateral hindlimb weakness and ataxia associated with upper respiratory infection (low grade fever and swollen submandibular lymph nodes) strongly suggest a equine herpesvirus 1 infection. The article I reference above gives a more complete list of possibilities and links to specific diseases.
DrO
New Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 9:58 am:

Thank you so much to everyone who has written offering support. I was feeling quite alone as my husband is gone and most people where I live do not consider animals important enough to treat something like this. I really appreciate your thoughts and kindness. I have looked thru all the articles I can find on the site that may seem relevent but she does not seem to fit neatly into any particular diagnosis. We are talking to an equine hospital in Edmond,OK this morning to see if shipping her there would be worthwhile as she is a little worse this morning - she now has some muscle tremors in all 4 legs and is obviously losing weight despite eating and drinking. Will let you all know something when I do. Thanks again.
New Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 10:14 am:

Hi Dr.O,
Have looked over the articles on the site and cannot find any one that seems to fit what is going on with her. Her symptoms are very symmetrical. She has not had an upper respiratory problem that I know of. Up until the fetlock injury showed up, she was fine - her usual healthy, athletic, bossy self. Could she have some sort of auto-immune problem that is attacking her nervous system? She definitely seems to be in some pain. Once I am able to get her up in the morning, she does not lay down again all day until I put her in her stall for the night and then she lays down exhausted and often does not eat or drink all night. My other concern is is this something that can affect my other horses - my peruvian paso is a bit stiff in his front end but does not seem ill in any way. Thank you again for your input. Angie
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 10:29 am:

I hope you find some answers soon.

I am wondering if there isn't an infection that started some how along with the tendon injury? It sounds like she has a systemic infection running through her body causing the weakness.

Poor mare, poor you. Big Hugs to both.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 3:09 pm:

Angela, glad to hear you are taking her to a hospital. I would think Edmond would have plenty of good vets since there are so many horse people there. It sounds more and more like EPM, EHV like Dr. O mentioned, or something like that.

Please let us know what you find out. Good luck.
New Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 4:22 pm:

Thanks again for the support from everyone. My vet and came by and we talked to the consulting vet over the phone. We decided to do a spinal tap for EPM as both vets felt that was the most likely suspect. Will take 3 days to get results back. I don't think she would tolerate a 3 hour trailer ride to Edmond anyway, so we will try to do what we can from here. We certainly have plenty of EPM carriers around here - possums, cats, skunks. I just hope we can get a more definitive answer.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 4:24 pm:

Angela good luck with your horse.

A little off the wall, but years ago I found my mare in the pasture unable to move, other than the swollen lymph glands it sounds eerily like your horse. The mare could not get up without help, she quivered, her muscles were tight, shifted her weight, walked stiff legged if she moved. Had a slightly elevated ck.

I had the vet look at her numerous time along with experienced horse people. I ALMOST had her put down. Instead I locked her up and watched for awhile.

Turned out she had severely foundered(in her rears)!!, how we don't know for sure. I had 8 other horses in that pasture with her and they were fine.

The stiff gait you speak of in your other horse sounds like it could be laminitis too (of course this is all conjecture as Dr.O. calls it) but maybe something to look into.

I believe once Sara W. had a horse founder from hoary assylum and it is also the season for founder (tho the swollen lymph glands don't fit,tho that could be a different entity)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 7:47 am:

Angela is parts of the country where the vectors for EPM are common many and maybe even most healthy horses will have a positive blood and CSF tap for EPM. If your vets think this is a possible diagnosis, I would recommend you start treatment until you get back the results. You can discontinue it if negative.
DrO
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 9:34 am:

I would worry that waiting 3 days for the test to get back would be too late. It's just a matter of time before she gets down and can't get back up again. I agree with Dr. O to start treatment now. It definitely couldn't hurt anything.
New Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 10:45 am:

We did the spinal tap yesterday - it went very well. We got 10cc of clear CSF. After the sedation wore off, she actually seemed better last evening than she has been. This morning she got up with just a little coaxing - that is a big improvement. Talked to the vet about starting treatment and he felt unless something changes (she has been like this nearly 2 weeks now) that he recommended waiting for the test results. I am keeping her on bute and she does seem a little better this morning. She actually wanted her butt scratched this morning - something she hasn't done since all this started. I am kind of worried that this is going to be like when she had the eye problem last summer. We did several tests on her then and everything came back negative.
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 9:42 pm:

Seems like we had a better day today. She didn't move any better but she did move around grazing, etc. a lot more than she has the last several days. She also seemed a little bit more like her old self. I am glad but afraid to get too hopeful. Also getting some pressure (from my family) about how much money all this is costing. I hate that! Thanks again for everyone's support.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 9:22 am:

Oh Angela, I am sorry you are going thru this and then having family pressures too. I always tell ppl that my animals are family and I would do no less for a family member. (And they better hope it's not them next time.) *horsie hugs n prayers*
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 9:54 am:

Just wanted to let everyone know that Diamond is doing a little better. Each day for the last 3 days she has been just a little better than the day before. Her appetite has improved and her front end is a little less stiff. Hind is still very weak and uncoordinated. Am waiting for the EPM results - but am wondering if she would be improving without treatment if that is what she has. I am continuing to do research on topics people have suggested here. Am reading up on equine herpes, founder, etc. I appreciate everyone's input.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 6:12 pm:

EPM signs may wax and wane a bit but the biggest problem I have with the diagnosis is the bilateral nature of the ataxia, it can happen but is not typical.
DrO
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 11:44 pm:

Hi Dr.O,
Diamond's symptoms are definitely bilateral. She was a little better again today. Getting around more and eating fairly well. Tonight was the first time that she picked up her back feet while walking into stall instead of shuffling in and banging them on the metal frame. I am hoping we have turned the corner, but am cautious. Should get the EPM results tomorrow.
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 5:18 pm:

Just to let everyone know, the vet clinic called and said the lab told them the EPM results would not be back until Monday. Fortunately, she is doing a little better again today. Thanks again for all the support. Angie
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jun 6, 2009 - 7:00 am:

Angela I hope your horse continues to improve Thanks for keeping us updated
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Saturday, Jun 6, 2009 - 8:44 pm:

Well, we gradually seem to be getting slightly better each day. Guess we will see what happens.
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Saturday, Jun 6, 2009 - 9:00 pm:

Dr. O,
From everything I have read so far, my TWH seems to fit best into the diagnostic category of equine herpes but with a recent URI. It was unclear to me from the reading I have done if she has herpes can the dormant stage become active in times of stress? Has any research been done in this area. I know in people stress will definitely cause a herpes outbreak in those infected because I used to be a Labor & Delivery nurse and we occasionally had to deal with ramifications of outbreaks.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 10:06 am:

Yes but this dormant form is less likely to cause neurological disease Angela. Occasionally there have been unexplained causes of herpes neurological disease, for more see Diseases of Horses » Respiratory System » Rhinopneumonitis: Equine Herpes Virus (EHV1/4) and be sure to follow the link to the article on the neurological form.
DrO
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 5:53 pm:

Hello Everyone,
Not good news today. EPM test came back grossly positive - serum and CSF. She seemed a little better but then kind of stayed about the same for the last few days. We will be consulting a couple of equine vets about what to do next. She looks terrible and I don't know if putting her thru the treatment will be worth it for her. I really appreciate everyone's support they have shown us. Thank you.
Member:
shirl

Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 6:28 pm:

Angela

So sorry for the diagnosis. Healing thoughts and prayers are going your way.

Hugs,
Shirl
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 9:44 pm:

Well, heck, a diagnosis is a beginning, right? I see that Dr. O suggested this as a possibility. Hopefully you now have a direction and with treatment I hope your horse recovers.

So sorry you are having this trouble.
Erika
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 12:41 am:

Angela, so sorry to hear the news. But, I am like Erika in that now you at least have a Dx and from what I understand, there are several treatments available for EPM. See this article for more info on them:

https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5376.html

Prayers and hugs for you and your horse. Please keep us posted.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 7:30 am:

Hello Angela,
What were the actual test results for the tests and what are the lab's normals?
DrO
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 5:39 pm:

Hi Dr. O,
I am sorry I don't have the results with me. I did look at the results yesterday. The CSF had a high number of antibodies but they could not specify them. The serum antibodies were specific and extremely high. After consulting 2 other vets, out vet said they were 95% certain that she has EPM. Today she was down a lot more than she has been. Since the best chance for a good outcome is to catch it early and treat it aggressively, and she has been sick for 3 weeks already, I am wondering what our chances for successful treatment are.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 8:09 am:

The sensitivity and specificity of the combination of typical symptoms and the presence of antibodies (blood or CSF does not matter which) has been well studied. When a horse has both you can only be about 80% sure: 20 percent of such horses have other diseases.
DrO
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 9:09 am:

Angela, Are you considering putting her down vs. treating her?
Member:
shogeboo

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 1:51 pm:

Hello Angela, I am so terribly sorry you are going through this. How is your horse doing at this time? Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your horse right now. Please keep us posted. I hope that you can treat your horse successfully.
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 8:03 pm:

Hi Everyone,
We have some bad news tonight. Diamond went downhill rather badly the last 2 days, getting to the point of hardly getting up at all. When she was up she was swaying and nearly falling. She was losing weight at an alarming rate and just not doing well, so we chose to put her to sleep. We did so at about 6:15 this evening. I very much want to let all of you know how very much I appreciated your support and input. I just wish we would have caught it earlier (perhaps I should have started treating her when we did the spinal tap). But I could not stand to see her suffer any longer. Thank you again to everyone. This website was a godsend in a difficult time. Sincerely, Angie
Member:
majoda92

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 8:58 pm:

So sorry to hear about your mare,Angela. My thoughts and prayers are with you during this painful time.
Blessings, diane baker-hallowell
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 11:14 pm:

I'm so sorry Angela. It takes courage to do what is right for your horse. As you have probably learned, many of us, including me, have had to make this same difficult dicision for one reason or another. It is never easy. Keep the good memories with you and discard the rest. Don't second guess yourself. Take comfort in the fact she is not longer suffering. She has lots of good company in "horse heaven."
Member:
shirl

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 12:34 am:

So very sorry. You have my deepest sympathy. It's never easy.

Hugs,
Shirl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 7:13 am:

My deepest condolences Angela,
DrO
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 7:19 am:

I'm very sorry, Angela. Sounds like you did everything you could for Diamond. There's no point in second guessing yourself. Illnesses and injuries don't come with labels to make them easy to diagnose. Take comfort in knowing you tried your best.

Fran
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 9:10 am:

So sorry, Angela. You made the right decision, but it is never easy. We have all been there before. Your story has made me further educate myself about EPM as well as other neurological problems. Thank you so for sharing, as difficult as it was. *hugs and prayers*
Member:
frances

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 10:46 am:

How sad. I'm so sorry.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 1:13 pm:

My sincere condolences, Angela. So sorry you lost your horse and had to make the toughest decision we horse owners (and pet owners) have to make.
Take care,
Lilo
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 12:26 am:

Angela, I just read this thread. I'm so sorry for your loss. You worked so hard to save Diamond and to give her every chance, and when that was not possible you gave her the gift of a peaceful death. I'm sure you are worn out. Get some rest now and look after yourself. Again, I am so sorry.
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 4:16 pm:

(((hugs and tears)))
L
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Saturday, Jun 13, 2009 - 10:08 am:

Just wanted to thank everyone for your kind thoughts and notes. It has been a most difficult time and I miss Diamond terribly. You have all touched my heart with your support throughout this ordeal. Thank You. Angie
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 9:48 am:

Hi Dr. O,
I am afraid I may have another horse with a problem. Dusty is an 18 you TWH - he was Diamond's best buddy and I kept him up with her while she was ill (because we thought the whole thing was a fetlock injury it did occur to me that it was something contagious in the first few weeks). Dusty now has pronounced submandibular lymph node swelling but is other wise acting fine. I am trying not to freak out here because Dusty is my best horse and the only one I have left that is broke to ride. His temp is normal and he is acting fine - eating, etc. What do I do now? Angie
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 10:52 am:

Angie, you might want to post this as a new discussion since it could easily get overlooked here. Considering what you've just been through, I would get your vet out to take a look at Dusty. Maybe have him tested, etc. too. *hugs*
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 11:03 am:

Oh my! Angela I am praying that it's nothing serious. Sorry you are having ongoing aguish. Your caring certainly comes through in your posts. Hoping for the best with Dusty.
Erika
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 9:15 am:

Hello Angela,
I agree this should be posted in a new discussion and I would recommend Diseases of Horses » Respiratory System » Discussions on Respiratory System not covered by the above since these lymph nodes are often associated with upper respiratory disease. You should note that since we cannot see the horse and not sure of your goals and resources we cannot effectively answer your question as asked. However to learn how to help assess the seriousness of a situation you should review the article Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Taking Temperature, Pulse, and Respiration.
DrO
Member:
apomsrus

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 11:01 pm:

Hi Everyone,
Had the vet check out Dusty. He has no other symptoms and we are just going to watch him. Will read the articles suggested by Dr.O and if anything else develops will start a new thread. For now will just watch and wait. He seems quite fine. Thank you all. Angie
Member:
frances

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 7:06 am:

So glad he's fine as of now and do hope no further symptoms develop.
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