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  Discussion on Horse cannot turn/move left
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New Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 3:21 pm:

Hello all. I am brand new to this site, but really need help and advice. My horse, duelling with his barnmate, pulled his head back and broke a 2 x 4 in half with his head. At least that's what it all looked like, and he had a sore spot just behind the poll, left of center. This happened in January, but I have not waited until now for help! I was out of town when it happened, came back into town and went out to ride. Tried to move him left to go behind a tree and he just froze his head and neck in place and dove to the right. Several times after several attempts to move left.

I jumped off to do a quick check of his vision in his left eye. This horse does NOT act this way. Something was seriously wrong. So I called me vet, who basically said that I was an idiot and nothing was wrong. I call him ten days later, begging him to look again. This time, he hangs around awhile and sees that my boy, Gulliver (18 hand PMU, 8 years old and in great condition), does not circle in his stall to the left, only to the right, will follow you willingly to the right side, but will not even take a treat held out to the left. Feels around, and finds a spot just behild the poll, left of center that is VERY sensitive. Puts him on dex. No improvement.

I take him out for a trail ride with friends, thinking it will be good therapy because he'll follow the other horses when they go left, right? Wrong. It was an hour and 1/2 of my hauling on his left rein and pushing with my right leg just to keep him going straight, and it was not really successful. DrOve home in tears. Got home, unhooked him to unload and he folded himself in half to the right and jetisoned out of the trailer in that position. The next day, his throat on the left was swollen, eyelid a bit DrOopy and left ear not quite in sync with the right one.

Call vet again, this time in tears, he comes, says facial nerve injury, puts him on higher dose of dex, does nothing. Next vet call was to put him on bute. 2 grams, twice a day, does nothing.

Last week, brought him to our local clinic at veterinary hospital. Xrayed his neck, new bone growth between C5-C6 and C6-C-7 but they don't think that's an issue and say it's fairly common, nothing in neck broken. Neurologist found nothing wrong at all. "Medicine" doc found nothing wrong to cause symptoms. Scoped gutteral pouches, nothing wrong. Never examined the top of his head and not sure if they got an x-ray of where the sore spot had been, but I told every doc about it more than once.

They have no idea what's causing his problem. It is as if there is a board running down his left side and up his neck and he can't get past it. His muscles are that tied up. So they put him on 20,000 milligrams of Robaxin (methocarbamol) and one gram of bute twice a day, and I do stretching exercises with him 3 or 4 times a day, and I am to ride him on a loose rein in straight lines and big circles. Yeah, sure.....

This was a week ago, so he's had the huge dose of muscle relaxants for a week now, and I wanted it to get into his system a bit. He can now take a carrot on the left side about as far back as my foot in the stirrup on the left, farther to the right, and will put his head between his legs for a carrot, so I decided he was limbering up and I could get on on try riding. I was hoping maybe he could do a straight line. He could do that for maybe 12-14 steps and then would go hard right. Could not even get one trot step straight. I could turn his head left at a standstill and ask him to walk and he would follow it but only 3 or 4 steps and he was off to the right. Cannot even do a big circle to the right because the left side is not helping me do the circle.

That's about it, and I'm sorry it's so long, but I need help, thoughts, anything. This is a wonderful, wonderful horse and I need to find a way to help him. He eats and acts fine otherwise, he just doesn't go left, even playing with his pals. He is generally himself, though once in awhile I see a little worry in his eye when his pals are coming up on his left side to quickly, like he can't defend himself in the play.

When left the clinic with five docs not being able to diagnose whatever is going on, his discharge status as "Alive" and prognosis as "open pending response to treatment."

Really, any thoughts will be valued. Thanks.

Diana
Member:
shirl

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 3:40 pm:

Diana,
Dr. O probably won't agree with this but your horse needs a vet/chiropractor who will do a cranial/body adjustment. Something is out of place some where. This is just my layman's opinion. A professional who does animal massages would also be beneficial. Again some may not agree with this but if nothing else works, wouldn't hurt to try it.

Best of luck,
Shirl
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 5:06 pm:

Hi Diana
Sorry to hear about your horse.:-(
Does he ever have trouble getting up after laying down? Does he stumble?

I dont know if this helps but maybe look at the articles https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/11587.html
and also on the nervous system.
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 6:42 pm:

Good NIGHT, Diana . . . I'm sorry to say it, but from your post, your NY vets sound like ignorant barbarians. I hope that really isn't the case. Where are you located in NY? Do you have a vet hospital nearby? Cornell?

Poor guy. It sounds awful. I wonder if any of the vets reallydidn't look at your horse's poll? Seems like the x-ray might have shown want is the problem. I wonder if something is pinched or if he tore tendons in his neck?

The fact that he's eating and acting normally in every other way is encouraging, but it seems that the vets would want to really find out what is going on instead of just sending you home with meds. Glad you are doing some stretches if they aren't hurting something already damaged. Is he still sore to the touch behind the poll?
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 9:49 pm:

Diana, the tender spot and evidence of a trauma leads me to think there is a head injury of some sort, but the seeming fear of turning in one direction sounds an awful lot like an eye problem. I know you checked his eye as soon as you noticed there was a problem, but did the vets check his eye as well? we had a horse who had glaucoma who acted something similar to this until she eventually lost sight in her other eye, and now she rides better than some with two good eyes. We actually donated her to a therapeutic riding club for children with disabilities. Seeing her go gives them a little boost in confidence.

Well, I have gotten off track...the muscle relaxers showing some improvement would not rule out a vision problem either, as they would just slow his reaction time down.

But I could be way off here. I would start with the bump/sore spot behind the poll to rule out a problem with the nervous system like a concussion, etc (which would be kinda unusual to still be causing problems), but the one thing that really leads me to think it is vision related is the fact that even in his stall he will only go in that one direction, and seems more frightened to go in the other direction than not being "able" to go, per se.

Dr. O will probably chime in tomorrow and may totally disagree, but if it is a vision problem, all is not lost,and he can be salvaged with a little patience and proven training techniques (for both of you). As a note, just because a horse blinks his eye when you motion near it does not mean the eye is working right. The same mare with glaucoma is blind as a bat, yet still "reflexes" when you get too close. (don't ask me how or why, one of God's mysteries to me). I would be surprised, and looking for a new vet, if they have not checked the eyes out yet, but it may be worth bringing up on their next visit.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 11:31 pm:

Welcome to HA Diana,

Hmm. Discharge status of "alive?" Seriously? I realize that's better than the obvious alternative, but still.

So I have no expertise, but feel the need to point out that C5-C8 are a long way from the actual point of trauma, if he truly broke a 2x4 with his head. Those are way down at the base of his neck, and C8 is well back between the scapulae and other horse stuff under the withers.

If the injury is 5 months old, that also raises some flags for me. A horse spent 5 months unable to look or turn left, and no one noticed? Is it possible that this could have another or secondary cause?

Many horses are sensitive to poll pressure. Is there heat or swelling in the tender spot?

I suppose if it were me I'd be tempted to start from the clinical symptoms, and not assume that this necessarily comes from the head-banging incident, though vision is an obvious suspect (and a vision-impaired horse can certainly be trained with treats on his aversive side).

Good luck-- let us know what you find out.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 7:27 am:

Welcome Diana,
Your post describes a horse that has had a combination of lower motor neuron, peripheral facial nerve, and possibly muscle damage possibly caused by trauma. However there are other possibilities if the broken board is a red herring or even perhaps secondary to the problems you are now seeing. Aberrant parasite migration in the nervous system for instance. If you can get the neurologist's report on your horse I would like to review it.

It does sound like you are making some improvements recently with enough flexibility to the left to reach your stirrup. There are normal horses out there that do not easily move with that much limberness. It may be continued use of muscle relaxers, anti inflammatory medications, and rest will give you back your old horse. If depends on the extent of the damage, something we don't know. Have your veterinarians discussed chiropractic adjustment?

However if you feel that the veterinarians do not have a good handle on this, I like the idea of a Cornell referral given above, the school has a long history of good neurological work.
DrO
New Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 9:16 am:

Thank you all for your input. And Cornell is the clinic that released him as "Alive". After 5 months of no vet really taking it seriously, or being able to help him, I simply called them up and made the appointment.

His eyes were, in fact, checked there and had been checked by two other vets prior to that. Everyone says eyes are fine.

He did, after I tried to trail ride him one day, have obvious signs of facial nerve injury so that may have been from the force with which I was pulling him left, and not from the original 2 x 4 breaking (no question he broke it with his head, just don't know if that is really what started all of this). Dex cleared up those symptoms in one day.

Cornell also had their orthopedic people looking at him, they were actually in charge of him and did the xrays. I am not sure how high the xrays went up, and have a call into them to assure that it shows as far as where he was hit in the head. I don't want a chiropractor near him until I am sure that area is clear of orthopedic issues at least.

The neurologic exam was just the doc looking at him in a stall and watching him walk up and down a hallway and do tight circles to both sides. No actual hands on at his neck or head. Although the exit document presented says "A cranial nerve exam was within normal limits. There were no palpable abnormalities in the cervical spine, poll or head. Gulliver was very resistant to left and complete downward flexion of neck; however, flexed freely to the right. ..Appeared soundat the walk and trot in a straight line. When circling to the left, Gulliver held his neck straight out and was very resistant to turning. When circling to the right, Gulliver stepped on his front feet repeatedly. A complete neurologic examination did not reveal any signs of ataxia or neurologic deficits. Gulliver's resistance to and difficulty circling is most likely associated with pain and guarding his neck."

I swear that woman never touched his head or neck at all. No one every attempted to examine the area that had originally been sore where he hurt himself. I was believing they thought that was no longer relevant. I was shocked at a reference in the papers of any "palpable" anything in that area. I was with him all the time but for when the took the xrays, which was maybe 15 minutes. It is possible there was further examination there, but I don't know for certain.

I will see if there is a supplemental neurologists report and, if so, will obtain it.

Cornell, when they clearly could not figure it out, suggested finding a chiropractor might help, but could not name anyone they knew of or trust in that area of expertise.

He does not have trouble getting up after laying down but he rarely, rarely lays on his left side anymore. And he used to get up every morning and do "cat stretches," you know that stretch down on the front end and then stretch each back leg. He doesn't do that anymore. And he doesn't really stumble.

And he was not ignored for 5 months, I swear. There were 6 or 7 vet calls involved, and the first three, I was treated like I was a moron and nothing was wrong with the horse at all. We do not have many large animal vets here. I use one that is "old school", that actually applies common sense before throwing drugs at something, and one that is "new school" that knows nothing but to throw drugs at something. Neither took me seriously for the first two, two 1/2 months. Old school doc finally believed me when the facial nerve symptoms showed up and believed it was a second injury. I think that I was the second injury, yanking his head around so hard for over an hour. I am certain there was no actual second injury. The symptoms have been the same from day one, but you need to know him to see it right off the bat. Neither vet even wanted to see him out of the stall at home.

I thought the same as stated here about the vertebra bone growth... too far away. Cornell's next step is to start injecting those vertebra and I'm rather opposed to that particular "shot in the dark," if you will.

I feel that the veterinarians do not have ANY handle on it. Clearly the muscles down his entire left side are tied up, that they all believe now. They just don't know why. And here's my big worry there, my farrier, third generation horseman, when I told him about all of this, he spent about 1/2 hour stretching Gull's left leg out, massaged the top of his neck and stretched it around, very slowly and gently. In about 1/2 hour, he was moving left easily in his stall. Rode him the next day and I had 80% back. I tried to streching he did (not what I'm doing now as per Cornell), but I was not as good at it as he was. He tied right back up again in a matter of 3 days. What if that is what happens here?

There isn't really a fear of turning left. He physically has simply not been able to do it. Under saddle, think of using all the strength you have to pull your horse to the left, I mean ALL your strength, and it is not enough to even get him to go straight. Head down, relaxed, not up and panicked or anything. His worry is more when the other horses duel with him and they are on that side. And lately, he tries to avoid being bridled, so I do think there is still pain in the poll. And when an 18 hand horse puts his head up to avoid bridling, it is no easy task! Though he's a good, good boy and I ask him to come back down with a gentle hand running up his neck, and he does. No heat or swelling on poll though.

Parasite migration? Interesting. He is on a regular worming schedule, and now that I have his actual weight I've apparently been overdosing him for 3 1/2 years. Wouldn't there be other symptoms of something like that, maybe poor coat conditions or lethargy or something? Other than this not moving left thing, he still looks and acts great... though I do think that he's taken off a little bit of weight. He weighs 1540 now, and I'm thinking he's lost maybe 100-150 lbs this winter. I don't recall that happening the last two winters.

One thing I checked last night, because I came across a video of a chiropractic head adjustment video. He is moving to the side nose first, NOT turning his head. So I held his head up and tried to turn it to the left (after I tried it to the right with no problem), and there is a LOT of resistance. In fact, I'm not sure it can move that way. It hurt him, I'm certain, and that put a worried look on his face. Obviously, I did it gently, so don't think I'm jerking his huge head around! So up high he is having more difficulty than down low, with the muscle relaxants in play.

Again, thank you everyone for your thoughts and comments. Every one helps. And Dr. Oglesby, thank you for the welcome and your insights. I will see if there is an actual neurologist's report underlying what I have, and I will do that today. My gut says neurological issues happening here. I guess I was kind of relieved when Cornell just wrote that off. I should have asked more questions of each doc and not assumed they had passed information on to each other, but after 6 hours there, and 5 examinations... two sedations.. and a horse getting very tired of the process, and this llama that was really worrying him, I really thought I'd asked everything I could have.

Finding this site was truly a blessing in this process.

Diana
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 9:51 am:

Oh man, this is heartbreaking:-(
I am curious to see ...can you take short video and put it on utube or photobucket?
L
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 9:57 am:

PS.
I had a filly with Wobblers and my vet told me that usually dependeding on where the impingement was is what feet (front, rear or both) would be affected. So I thought it interesting he stepped on his front feet. It sounds like he doesnt know where they are.
My wobblers filly didnt know where her back feet where and therefore couldnt get up after laying down.
Member:
stek

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 3, 2009 - 11:34 am:

Diana,

My first thought was that an injury that led to guarding the muscles could have led over time to a level of stiffness that is really a physical inability to use those muscles correctly.

A (human) friend is going through something that seems similar: she had a neck injury from a year and a half ago that was never resolved. She started protecting her neck muscles subconsciously and not turning her head, and it has got to the point where she is physically unable to do so. Currently trying to work through it with physical therapy.

The thing that give me the most hope that you wrote above was the positive response to the farrier's massage .. do you have an equine massage therapist in the area you could work with? Maybe someone that could help you develop a program of physical therapy for this horse? Keep in mind that if he has been unable to move left for the last 5 months it could take the same amount of time before he got completely back to normal. I would also expect the problem to return as you reported above if a regimen of physical therapy was not strictly adhered to.

Best of luck with your horse!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 7:28 am:

Diana, Cornell should have provided you with a discharge report that included the examination findings, rule outs, and recommendations for follow up. If you did not receive one call for it, they will have created such a report.

Concerning the diagnosis of tying up (rhabdomyolysis) do you have laboratory confirmation of this with elevated muscle enzymes? What were the levels at the dates it was found?
DrO
New Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 8:13 am:

I think the guarding the muscle thing, as Sharon states, makes a great deal of sense and what I think has likely happened. I would just feel better knowing what caused it initially.

Dr. Oglesby, not one DrOp of blood was drawn, unless they drew it when they took xrays, but no one mentioned doing it, or results of it. And absolutely no diagnosis was provided. At all, nor any prognosis. The quote in my last post is from the exit summary provided. All the exit summary really says is what it isn't: not orthopedic, not neurological, not optical, nothing medical, so we'll just use drugs and see if that fixes it. When they call me back, I will verify any testing done, but my bill shows nothing.

Most recent development is that, on inclines, he clearly has no idea where his front feet are in connection with the ground. He expects the ground to be at a level line. I have seen this in him before when I was very foolishly convinced to Ace him. 1/2 cc dose and he could not ride inclines at all. He was falling down, I was crying because I had been stupid enough to do this to him. Very dangerous, very scarey, and it was during a foxhunt. So I am thinking this is a drug thing happening to him because a drug did it to him before, and it's a bit worrisome.

He is able to stretch with his head midrange to low to both sides to about stirrup, can touch his body there on the right, but on the left, still about 10 inches away from body. But with head higher up, pretty inflexible in trying to make him turn, though he will actully turn his head and look to the left now with his head in a pretty normal position.

Chiropractor coming Friday, so I'll see what he says, and I have vet coming for another horse that I will have look at this issue with his feet slapping down on the ground oddly on inclines.

I am just shaking my head. Never even considered that some actual fluid testing could help toward a diagnosis. I guess I was just so happy someone was acknowledging something, anything, was wrong so something could be done to help him that I tossed some of my own common sense out the window.

Again, thank you all. And anyone have any experience with this methocarbamol? I'm not keen on the fact it works on the spine and not the muscle, nor that he no longer knows where his feet are relative to the ground on inclines (and not really steep inclines).

Diana
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 10:44 am:

Diana, for more on what serology can tell you about rhabdomyolysis see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM.

We also have an article on methocarbamol at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Miscellaneous Drugs » Methocarbamol. Though we do not have reports about this in horses occasionally humans report dizziness with this drug including a propensity to increase dizziness if already present. This makes me consider another problem consistent with the idea of head trauma: central vestibular disease. In this condition the horse has trouble navigating because of dizziness and if the lesion is unilateral there is a distinct one-sidedness to the ataxia. Perhaps your horse does not want to turn to one side because it results in increased dizziness? The only problem with this idea is there should be other observable signs that should be picked up during a routine neurological exam. You can find a description of both peripheral and central vestibular disease at Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Neurological Conditions Not Covered Above » Cranial Nerve Diseases.

Many chiropractors would find ataxia, which you may be describing in your last post as a contraindication because it may indicate vertebral impingement on the spinal cord: adjust the wrong way and you increase the damage to the cord.

I look forward to Cornell's report of their findings.
DrO
New Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 4:25 pm:

OK, the most recent update. Chiropractor came on Friday and withing seconds, Gulliver was asleep against my chest. Within minutes, he was turning to the LEFT watching the chiropractor work. Neck was all out of whack, withers worse and one lone out of place vertebrae on his butt that put his tail off center. Unfortunately, it did not last, but now I totally feel this is the right track.

Called Cornell again (called Thursday but never got a return call), told them what happened with chiropractor and said I took him off the medications because they were not doing diddly. Doc actually agreed that stopping meds was way to go, was amazed at the chiropractic results, not surprised they did not last. The muscle is so "stuck" that it apparently pulled all back out of alignment. So, treatment as per Cornell, and as per common sense, and as per suggestions here (thank you thank you), massage therapy to help fix the muscle memory that is keeping things out of place, and chiropractic work. With the expectation that fixing it will take many weeks if not many months. The guy doing chiropractic work, who I trust, also does massage and will teach me how to do daily massage between visits from him so that we can keep progress happening. And he said something docs never say: He'll be okay..... Frankly, I think he heard the tears in the back of my throat and knew I needed to hear it.

Cornell's last words were: "You are on the right track with it, let us know how it is progressing, and we're here if you need us." I thought that was pretty decent. I am, though, confused that an xray would not show bones out of alignment, but I don't know enough about reading xrays, or the angles involved, etc. And I sure am learning a lot about muscles and how they can turn against us!

I will now look for any articles on massage and chiropractic adjustments, etc. to try to educate myself on all of it. And you guys have been just wonderful. You have no idea what a relief and boon it was to me to feel I was not in it alone. So now you are all part of the treatment, and I will let you know how things progress. In my trying not to get too hopeful too soon, I am looking out maybe 4 weeks from now before I assess improvement. Doing it day by day can be very depressing and disheartening, so I am going to try for the bigger picture. Four weeks of stretching, massaging, more hand walking (moves more freely that way so I'll use that to help)and chiropractic adjustments and then I will look at the overall progress and let you all know. Naturally, if there is an extraordinary happening, you guys will be the first I'll tell because, well, who else will know how exciting it is :-)

Dr. O, everyone, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.

Diana
Member:
shirl

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 4:50 pm:

Diana,

I'm SOO happy you've found the "key". Your heart has to be lighter by pounds. And--I'm so relieved my suggestion shortly after your first post was right on. I've used both C. & M. and they can be a real help in a lot of situations, even those we didn't know existed.

Good luck

Shirl
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 6:54 pm:

Diana,

I am also a proponent of chiropractic and massage. A good book is Equine Massage: A Practical Guide by Jean-Pierre Hourdebaight, RMT.

When I have a horse that has a chiropractic problem, I usually treat at least three times before I expect to see a result that stays. I do it every week to 10 days. I also schedule the massage therapist as close as I can before the chiropractor to relax their muscles and they are worked, given a warm bath and completely cooled out before either of them come out. When the chiropractic treatment is completed on a specific day, they are turned out and given the next day off. This helps their bodies maintain the adjustment and not stiffen back up again.

Good luck with your horse, he's got a good mom.
Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 9, 2009 - 8:31 pm:

Diana, one other thing you might try along with the chiropractic and message treatments is electro-magnetic therepy. Quite a few years ago one of our mares was obviously in pain, carrying her shoulder high, stiff gaits, etc. She had injured her knee, and although the knee healed, she continued to be stiff and sore. At the suggestion of a friend I took her to a woman who does the electromagnetic therepy and it was absolutely amazing the difference it made in the mare. She relaxed, lowered her shoulder, started "chewing" and fell asleep during her first treatment. She had a series of three treatments and it really helped her finally recover from her injury. It seems like it would help to really relax those muscles and tendons so they don't pull so much. Might be worth a shot if there is someone in your area that does it. I'd do it along with the other treatments.

Of course, a nice daily soak in a jacuzzi would probably help her too! You two could soak together and share a little wine....it would do you both good. I suspect you're almost as tense as she is after going through all this with her!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 7:36 am:

Diana,

I agree with Sara about the electro magnetic treatment. I have a magnetic flysheet I use on my horses for a few hours a day. The magnets are located approx. where the accupuncture meridian lines on a horse are and I feel that it helps.

The trick is to stimulate the accupuncture points and not over stimulate them, so you need to watch your horse for any signs of slight discomfort which signals he's had enough.

I would start slowly at an hour with the sheet and gradually get him up to several hours. I use it after a bath and after they have worked. You can but the sheets relatively inexpensively on Ebay. For the winter I use a Back on track blanket (Ceramics).

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 7:59 am:

The book Rachelle mentions is great. I have a DVD by Jim Masterson, "Equine Massage for Performance Horses" that is also excellant. Between the book and DVD, I've had good results learning to massage my horses. The DVD is great in that you know what to look for; the horse will blink when you touch areas that need work, then do all kinds of neat things as you work the area.

My gelding, Cody, just hugs me and holds me to him when I work his favorite areas.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 5:18 pm:

We will note that without a diagnosis it is difficult to assess the results of any therapy but the idea that magnets might help any of the common causes of such a problem is hard to find though you will find much anecdotal evidence but so is there for magical treatments.

I personally believe the chiropractic "adjustments" with respect to the spinal cord are also a bit of voodoo but to the degree that the horse is massaged and range of motion is exercised, if it does not damage any tissues, certainly helpful.
DrO
New Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 6:52 pm:

I agree with Dr. O that I have moved into the "witch doctor" category of treatment, but if it works, it works, right? You guys really are the best.

Everything that I have read says that most treatments, ie. heat, cold, electroshock do not have any positive effect on deep muscle, and that magnets can confuse muscle and lots of other things and can be painful... until I read that I was a believer in magnets, so now I'm wondering about them.

Also have done some research on myofacial release which sounds very cool and like something that could help, but really, no one in my area does any of this. The chiropractor/massage guy that I am using is actually the guy that does Cornell's jumping team, and I have personal references from some folks I know and trust or he wouldn't have been allowed in my barn!

And though it does feel odd not using typical "treatments," Cornell is telling me that they have no medical treatment for what is going on. None. And they acknowledge that there is a huge problem with the horse, so very few options are left for a horse that is not going to spend the next twenty to twenty-five years as a pasture pet if there is anything I can do to prevent it. So, witch doctors, here I come!

Diana
Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 4:05 pm:

Wanted to let you guys know that things seem to be moving along well. Two adjustments by chiropractor along with some accupressure and my doing stretching exercises of various kinds twice a day have us moving in the right direction. There is even some volutary movement to the right now when Gulliver is out playing. I am very hopeful. Just wanted you all to know that it looks like we are on the right track,and to again thank everyone for their input. Diana
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 6:31 pm:

Keeping my fingers crossed that things continue to improve!
New Member:
sharonw

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 7:31 am:

I so agree with Dr O on the 'voodoo' regarding chiropractors adjustment, similarly their claim that a pelvis is 'out' and is something that they can put back in with quite a violent thrust, which I feel can only be harmful to possibly inflamed tissues.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 1:45 pm:

Sharon,

On HA we call it alternative medicine, and as a recipient of chiropractic, I can assure you that it does work, both on horses and on humans. I base my observations on results, in some cases instantaneous results, when all other options have been attempted.

On myself as a human subject. I was riding my horse in an arena and got dumped when the horse stopped short, I was very sore and as the days progressed I got much sorer to the point where I could not stand upright. I did not want to go to the doctor and at the time I was really turned off to chiropractors, since all I hear was horror stories about how they twisted and manipulated your body( sounded terrible, but in reality doesn't hurt at all).

Anyway by day 4 I could not take it any longer, so I went to the chiropractor not exactly knowing what to expect.

I was pleasantly surprised. He adjusted me very gently. I heard and felt whatever it was that was out in my lower back pop back into place and the relief was instantaneous and although still sore( the soreness was explained to me as being the inflammation from whatever was out in my back rubbing in places where it should not rub, the soreness was 95% gone by the next day) walked out of the office standing upright for the first time in 4 days.


Now for the horse story: My first and favorite racehorse( also my riding horse) went out into the field one day, and laid down to roll as he always did. I was standing next to the fence as he rolled I heard something pop. When he got up he was noticeably lame behind. I though he broke something. I immediately called the vet, who examined him and told me that the prognosis wasn't very good and that the best I could hope for was a pasture potato. I was heartbroken, I then got a second opinion, who told me I should inject him with an iodine blister, I didn't think that was too hot an idea either since the horse had to move if he was injected and if it was something broken that wouldn't be a good idea either. A few days after each of these vets had made their visit( the horse had been stall rested until a decision was made about what to do, but he was still very lame) and a horse chiropractor walked through the barn, I asked him if he would look at the horse. He did, he asked me to hold the horses head and went and first pulled the horses leg forward and then back, I heard that same pop that I'd heard the first day it happened, then he asked me to harness the horse and go jog him. I thought he was being a bit dramatic, but just like my experience, this horse 1) walked out of his stall sound and 2) jogged a bit sore but not with the hiking gait he had when he was hurt ( also the next day he was almost 100%) and 10 days later he was back racing.

So while everyone might call this voodoo. I called it a miracle for both myself and my horse.

This is just my opinion, I have had other similar experiences, so since mine were positive ones, it does not mean everyone's experiences are.

Just my thoughts
Rachelle
New Member:
sharonw

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 4:06 pm:

With respect, as an intelligent women I do know what constitutes alternative medicine,I had to laugh at your claim that 'on HA WE call it'
curious as to who the 'we' is? Do you speak for every HA member? Or are you saying this because that was my first post here, to make sure I know my position as a newbie??
I too am a recipient of chiropractor treatment both for a horse and my husband... it was voodoo no question at all, I have watched many people on my yard use a 'back person' never seen anyone have miraculous results, I think any improvement would have happened anyway.
Glad you think it worked for you, personally I would save my money or go for a normal massage.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 4:44 pm:

Having seen my daughter freeze up in tears on the basket ball court, and then seeing the chiropractic put in her rib back in place with a GENTLE adjustment, I dare you tell her that she was the recipient of some voodoo type practice. Her rib still wants to pop out, and the chiro fixes it as needed, takes away her pain every time.

Chiropractic is pretty widely accepted in most states. A massage and adjustment done jointly offer much more relief than either one done alone, my husband, kids and I will all vouch for that.

Not all chiropractors are good. Some treat their patients with assembly line mentality, and it sounds to me like that is perhaps what you experienced. Or you and your horse, your husband, had something going on that chiropractic did not help, and never was meant to help.

I am consider myself intelligent enough to do my research, and having lived long enough to know that drugs can mask pain, or help with inflammation, but there are many other issues that are over looked and can be solved by nutrition, stress relief, and yes, even chiropractic adjustments. If you choose to go the route of drugs to help with pain for you or your horse, that is certianly your choice, I choose "alternative methods" if at all possible, or a combination of.

I am glad you know the definition of what constitutes "alternative methods" since there seems, IMO, to be disagreement among the medical community even.

No one ever puts anyone into place as a "Newbie" on this site. Everyone makes everyone else feel right at home. We may not agree on what works or doesn't work, but we share our experiences, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and everyone is respectful of everyone else.

DrO keeps us informed with what the Scientific Equine Community has proven to work based on the latest findings.

But many things cannot be proven, not because it is "voodoo" but because there just isn't a way to test and prove it yet!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 5:15 pm:

Hello All,
To be clear on the voodoo part of my statement, I was referring to some of the equine chiropractic uses of medical terminology. They use the terms "out of joint", "luxation", and "subluxation" to mean something different than the medical sense. One cannot see or palpate such changes in the equine back, there is too much tissue in the way. Chiropractors are usually referring to a muscle event, like a spasm or sometimes an abnormal reaction to pressure. Note that Diane's horse above had normal radiographs, the most sensitive indication of misaligned vertebrae.

One should not confuse this with Angie's obvious experience with a true subluxation of a rib that was manipulated back in place by a chiropractor. Then again I have seen coaches do this to. Having been a kid's soccer coach and seen many finger subluxations I prefer waiting until a radiograph as it can be difficult to distinguish a fracture from a luxation. But the point here is this is not what is happening with the horse's back. For more on this and other alternative medicine articles and discussions see HorseAdvice.com » Member's Services » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistemology.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 5:57 pm:

Hi Sharon W. Welcome to HA. Regardless of your feelings towards chiropract0rs, or rtrotters' feelings about them, I just wanted you to know that rtrotter would be the last person on earth to try and put a "newbie" in his/her place. Although I have never met her personally, I have read her posts, and chatted with her here on HA, for many years. She is extremely knowledgeable, kind and caring to both people and animals. As to experience, she has been a Standardbred trainer and owner for many years, training for track as well as for personal use.

As to chiropract0rs, there are chiropract0rs and then there are chiropractors; meaning there are good and bad. There are ones who are nothing but charlatens imo, and there those who are also vets or who work with vets. Having worked in the human medical field for a lot of years, I was very leary of chiros myself. Then I had severe back pain that nothing would touch. My MD suggested a chiro to me that was also an acupressurist. After four accupressure treatments my back has never bothered me since. He was very thorough, took x-rays, etc. before treatment. Several years later my husband went to a chiro that tried to sell him hundreds of dollars worth of pills and wanted him coming back for treatments twice a week indefinitly. Maybe this is the kind you've had contact with? I believe the good ones have their place in the medical/veterinary world and can be helpful. They don't ever take the place of a doctor or vet.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 7:42 pm:

First off, thanks Dr. O for explaining the voodoo comment and thanks to Angie and Sara for supporting me with your own chiropractic stories.

Now Sharon, since you are a newbie and don't know me very well, you probably don't know that in just about every post, I've posted here on HA I include stories about my animals and 35+ years of experience with those animals to illustrate a point.

My point in my above post was that my experiences have been positive with both horse and human and I do not consider the practice voodoo in any way shape or form and on this site it is considered alternative medicine even though its becoming more and more popular with regular vets as well.

I use chiropractic in conjunction with massage and you can just see my horses relax under the hands of some very talented chiropractic and massage practitioners.

That said, we are a friendly bunch of people, who care very deeply about our horses, I myself would love to have you as part of the HA family even if we did get off to a rocky start. I always like to hear other peoples perspectives on things, it makes me grow as a person. I always keep an open mind because you never know if something you learn here will help you somewhere down the road.

This sites advice, Dr. O and all the other people that comment and post have taught me a tremendous amount.

All the best
Rachelle
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